jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Emotional Support => Topic started by: Ben on January 21, 2014, 10:34:26 PM
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So I had the operation and it seemed to me as soon as I was conscious after it that my jaw hadn't been advanced enough. My mandible had to be fully retracted and then compressed somewhat displacing my front teeth in order to get my molars anywhere near touching. Basically my front teeth were occluding and were edge to edge at rest. Unfortunately the Orthodontist was trying to fix my under bite instead of letting the surgery correct it so before the surgery my front teeth were already flared out and my lower teeth leaning inwards so nothing can be gained to make my bite work from here. So anyway I'm left wondering why the hell I wasn't advanced enough, my thought is my jaw joint shouldn't be in constant state of tension just to keep my teeth near touching at rest. How do other peoples bites feel after they've had le forte one advancement? Btw I'm 10 months post op now and my surgeon, who I no longer talk to, thinks it is all in my head. The orthodontist said to me she was extremely upset after she saw the result of my surgery, but she waited 6 months to tell me this.
My country is a s**t hole and no one is willing to help me here, I paid for everything out of my own pocket and now I'm broke and tired of it all. Sometimes I feel like doing something crazy and getting even with the people who have failed in their treatment of me then left me hanging out to dry. When I talk to receptionists at the offices where I've been treated they are very sorry and say things like what happened to you is really unfortunate, but this doesn't help me. I have feel strongly about making them pay but my country leaves me with no legal method to do this. I have many other complications from this surgery, the issue of insufficient advancement is about as depressing as getting no expansion. My surgeon despite saying it is all in my head also has said that I signed a piece of paper that said I accepted the risks of surgery yes piece of s**t he is. Anyway I just felt like getting the baggage of my chest, thanks for reading.
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I'm in a similar situation so I know how you feel. :(
In which country did you have the surgery? Was there no communication between the orthodontist and surgeon before the surgery? To me it sounds like they should never have gone ahead with the surgery considering the way your teeth were positioned.
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Thank you, I'm in New Zealand. Yeah I believe they had trouble communicating together, the reason why I think this is that the ortho complained to me several times about the surgeons slow communication. But basically they were lazy and didn't give enough of a s**t to do their jobs, probably because they can do what they like and know they ain't going to get in trouble.
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Unfortunately the Orthodontist was trying to fix my under bite instead of letting the surgery correct it so before the surgery my front teeth were already flared out and my lower teeth leaning inwards so nothing can be gained to make my bite work from here.
Has your ortho done treatment for surgical cases before you showed up? it sounds like he didn't even understand the basic concept of a combined ortho & surgical treatment plan, which consists of the ortho making the malocclusion as bad as possible dentally beforehand and the surgeon fixing it skeletally + ortho fine tuning afterwards.
it took me a while to understand this concept (about 30 minutes after i found this forum) but i am not an orthodontist.
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Yeah she said she has done hundreds, but it later came out that I was her first le forte one 3 piece case. To me though it was almost as if she forgot it was a surgical case. I questioned her many times through out my treatment but she always said just trust me bla bla... Also my surgeon didn't care that I was left with really bad cross bites after the surgery it was weird it was almost as if the expansion was just a little bonus and it didn't matter if it wasn't achieved. He said we got the advancement and that was the main purpose WTF! I didn't even get that. Both of them are cheeky pieces of s**t really.
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man that's rough... :-(
thanks for sharing your story, it's easy to get lulled into a false sense of comfort with all those excellent results floating around.
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Thanks, I had a lot of warnings before the surgery that these two people were no good for me. I just thought be positive and trust them and it will all be ok. Hopefully in the future I will learn not to ignore red flags and not feel bad about calling people out on their BS. Never ignore the gut feeling
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Thanks, I had a lot of warnings before the surgery that these two people were no good for me. I just thought be positive and trust them and it will all be ok. Hopefully in the future I will learn not to ignore red flags and not feel bad about calling people out on their BS. Never ignore the gut feeling
1000x this. Dont make the same mistakes that we did :(
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Sometimes I feel like doing something crazy and getting even with the people who have failed in their treatment of me then left me hanging out to dry. When I talk to receptionists at the offices where I've been treated they are very sorry and say things like what happened to you is really unfortunate, but this doesn't help me. I have feel strongly about making them pay but my country leaves me with no legal method to do this.
Lol, when I first read the 'doing something crazy' part I thought you meant going vigilante. Like you were going to wait for them with a knife or something. I wonder how many people have seriously contemplated doing this to an orthodontist.
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Yeah I'm going to see another orthodontist he is supposed to be very fair. I'm paying to have a full report done so that I hopefully have something concrete to argue with. The trouble is that Orthodontists are so ignorant when it comes to bite relationship and the complex rotation of the mandible in to the bite position. They don't seem to take into account the TMJ's in their assessment of a bite. Anyway there is so much wrong with my outcome that it should be positive for me. I'm going to make these people pay one way or another.
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Ok I've deleted the last few posts I've made because, I have been given a nice surprise. I've received an unexpected report from the Orthodontist I saw a few weeks ago. He has fully backed up my beliefs and stated that I'm still a class three skeletal base and that I've had no expansion of the upper jaw. It is nice to have a report to back up what I knew right from the start. I hope I can go somewhere from this, ideally get a refund or perhaps seek further treatment paid for by the government.
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I thought I would just put some pics up of my profile, I'm not angry in these photos that's just my expression to show teeth (sorry)
http://imageshack.com/a/img838/876/7sn7.jpg (http://imageshack.com/a/img838/876/7sn7.jpg)
http://imageshack.com/a/img838/9580/4he6.jpg (http://imageshack.com/a/img838/9580/4he6.jpg)
http://imageshack.com/a/img842/5230/aquu.jpg (http://imageshack.com/a/img842/5230/aquu.jpg)
http://imageshack.com/a/img841/6330/12vi.jpg (http://imageshack.com/a/img841/6330/12vi.jpg)
http://imageshack.com/a/img835/8443/7roy.jpg (http://imageshack.com/a/img835/8443/7roy.jpg)
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Reading your previous posts it looks like you're right your lower jaw looks like it is more forward. You can tell a mile away because if your upper maxilla was forward the sides of you teeth would line up better because your upper jaw is back it makes it look narrower than your lower jaw. I know because i was a class 3. Does your tongue tip placement feel more forward in the mouth by the alveolar ridge? i.e when saying t,d,l sounds, this usually is the case if you have an upper jaw that is not the same as your lower. Best to get a few consultations, send the photographs or lat ceph to dr birbe his email doctor@birbe.org he will give you an honest opinion, he has commented on this board in the past.
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Thanks, yes my tongue is further forward then that place, more on the back of my upper incisors h but is cramped back even then.
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Reading your previous posts it looks like you're right your lower jaw looks like it is more forward. You can tell a mile away because if your upper maxilla was forward the sides of you teeth would line up better because your upper jaw is back it makes it look narrower than your lower jaw. I know because i was a class 3. Does your tongue tip placement feel more forward in the mouth by the alveolar ridge? i.e when saying t,d,l sounds, this usually is the case if you have an upper jaw that is not the same as your lower. Best to get a few consultations, send the photographs or lat ceph to dr birbe his email doctor@birbe.org he will give you an honest opinion, he has commented on this board in the past.
What did you think of my Ceph?
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If the front of your tongue feels slightly further forward then this is a sign you are a class 3, try explaining this to a surgeon,orthdontist they havn't got a clue! With your lower jaw realxed how do your back molars line up are they in line with each other? Send the lat ceph to Dr Birbe on that email see what he says, very likely you are class 3, whats going on with your surgery? Are they redoing it?
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Yeah I will do send it to him.
I'm very angry about my surgery, I new right away that it was no good. The surgeon says it is all in my head but my jaw is very uncomfortable and I cannot bite together without a lot of pressure on my jaw joint which I'm finding difficult to live with at times. I saw another surgeon and ortho and had a report done they said I was still class 3.
Thanks
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Yeah I will do send it to him.
I'm very angry about my surgery, I new right away that it was no good. The surgeon says it is all in my head but my jaw is very uncomfortable and I cannot bite together without a lot of pressure on my jaw joint which I'm finding difficult to live with at times. I saw another surgeon and ortho and had a report done they said I was still class 3.
Thanks
I'm no expert, but you look like class 3 in your photos (they are the afters, right?). If the point of the surgery was to make you class I, it boggles the mind how the surgeon can say the surgery was a success. It's like saying 2+2=5.
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Yes they are afters. I think my chin is pointy and bigger due to my bicuspid extractions and re-tractive braces making it look that way (but that's just an idea) anyway I'm thinking my maxilla needs to come a long way forward just by how my nose and upper lip looks. Plus just to make my bite functional.
I thought my surgery was to correct my jaw abnormality. Maybe I should have been more specific with my surgeon but I didn't know I had to be. Yes surgeon also says I've had 5mm of expansion, yet I've had none as evidenced by my post surgical models.
Thanks
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i thought you could only expand the maxilla with sarpe? or am i wrong?
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The expansion I had is incorporated in the advancement surgery. The operation is called a le-fort 1 3 piece segmented osteotomy. From what I have read and experienced about it, it is an unreliable means of expansion and one might only get 4mm of expansion if hes lucky. I wouldn't recommend it because the segments at least in my case didn't heal well and if I use the molars I can still feel the bone crunching at over 1 year post.
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Just to let you know Ben i saw a tmj specialist yesterday she checked my lower jaw the movements i told her about the clicking on my joints and that i have to move my lower jaw back to meet my teeth. She confirmed and was the first person to do so after three months that my surgeon did not advance me further enough. I knew it was not in my head my lower jaw was in fact trapped back and they got the measurments wrong.she will now get a carefully constructed orthotic to get my lower jaw in the correct position and will put my torqued teeth back into the correct position i will be more careful who i will choose for my next surgery when this is in place. Am i angry yes even more so I'mhaving to payfor this all i can do is keep going. I really hope she isn't a quack everything seems legit so far I'll be asking further questionsweek
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I'm glad someone has confirmed your thoughts on the issue. It sucks when you have only your own opinion. For a long time none of my family believed me that my result was so bad. Now they definitely do and seem to understand, I've been on about it for so long now I may have brain washed them.
The popping clicking may go away. Mine has slowly improved, I have good days and bad with it. Today is a good day, yet when I woke up at 5.30 this morning I was immediately aware of the discomfort in my jaw and got anxious angry and never went back to sleep, happens often over 1 year out. I've been training myself to keep my mouth shut and teeth in contact (the best I can) day in day out. I do this in the hope that eventually my jaw joint will somehow adapt to the new position and it won't be so dam uncomfortable. I guess my teeth are torqueing as well as they collide and ever so much giving me a little extra room.
I'm taking all involved to court soon. The max I can go for is only $15000 each for the Orthodontist and the surgeon. I've hassled them a lot over the last year, I think they are starting to realise that I'm not going away.
Is there any chance for you to have your fees reimbursed?
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My surgeon says that I got the amount of expansion that he planned for at the time of my surgery. He stated this to me as 2.5mm at the time of the surgery, which is so little it's stupid. He think he hopes he can get away with say that I had relapse. Which is a total crock, and still doesn't explain all the other stuff ups he made.
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My surgeon says that I got the amount of expansion that he planned for at the time of my surgery. He stated this to me as 2.5mm at the time of the surgery, which is so little it's stupid. He think he hopes he can get away with say that I had relapse. Which is a total crock, and still doesn't explain all the other stuff ups he made.
This is me, user Ben now logged in as Ben30. I just wanted to edit the above comment. It should have read 2.5mm advancement of maxilla.
Also I just wanted to up date this thread since it has been so long. I've learnt so much this year, and I'm off to court on the 17th of December to seek a refund of my surgical fees on the grounds that my procedure was not carried out with reasonable care and skill.
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This is me, user Ben now logged in as Ben30. I just wanted to edit the above comment. It should have read 2.5mm advancement of maxilla.
Also I just wanted to up date this thread since it has been so long. I've learnt so much this year, and I'm off to court on the 17th of December to seek a refund of my surgical fees on the grounds that my procedure was not carried out with reasonable care and skill.
Good luck Ben.
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Do you have anyone backing your claims in court?
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Fingers crossed for you mate, hope the b*****d gets what's coming to him!
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Thanks guys
I have supporting documents
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Thanks guys
I have supporting documents
Any news?
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Hey yep, the person over seeing my case knew a family member so my case was postponed to another hearing. Im feeling positive. Thete is a surgeon nearby that does palatal distraction so ill be checking it out. Then im not sure about the advancement of maxilla maybe a seperate surgery and distraction also.
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Updat. I had consultation with another surgeon. He seemed to have more knowledge than the others ive seen so far. I drove 1500km to see hi I feel it was worth it. He seemed great and i had a good feeling after the consultation, which included ct scan. Which showed a decent airway and heavily compensated lower arch with pronounced chin. I told him my last maxillary advancement the surgeon only moved 2mm which i said to him was nowhere near enough. He agreed. We discussed some options which included advancing upper jaw by 8mm. To match a decompensated lower arch. He does palatal distraction, an expansion of 8mm+ is possible if an ortho can upright my lower arch. my upper jaw isnt super narrow as is. He will do a bi max for 26k and palatal distraction for 5k. I think it's coparatively cheap.
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palatal distraction or the upper and lower jaw? or just lower jaw? Also are you talking about distraction osteogenesis?
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distraction osteogenesis of upper jaw only. My lower is normal size.
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Update..well i just wrote a novel and lost it..so this will be short and sweet. Court is frustrating, I'll have a decision in 6weeks and will probably lose.
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I've started reversing my orthodontic extractions. Didn't know where to turn. I probably could have just gotten crowns to build up my bite to reduce the traumatic overbite but they're very costly and i couldn't find anyone with any kind of understanding of an occlusion. The impaction of my jaw by 4mm by the surgery is heartbreaking.
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Update..well i just wrote a novel and lost it..so this will be short and sweet. Court is frustrating, I'll have a decision in 6weeks and will probably lose.
That sucks. Why do you think you will lose? :(
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Sorry I'm not farmiliar with your story...
why are you in court? Did you already have jaw surgery?
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Lose because it's unfair, by the ethics and even the law i should win.
Class skeletal 3 base remains. Excuse..relapse, even though advanced only 2mm as planned.
No decompensation of dental arches over 19 months braces before sugery. Excuse Not important.
Jaw moved inferiorly, 4mm at 2nd molar..no recognition
Expansion complication..excuse tight tissues at ostetomy sight.
I've been told that the issue is with my expectations.
The overbite due to inferior movement of jaw is the hardest
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Bit of an update, im still actively battling and dealing with the double speak bulls**t that is the concerned profession.
I just had a diagnosis of an excessive overbite, deep, and lack of vertical dimension. Unfortunately despite my instructions otherwise the cosmetic dentist who provided the diagnosis
decided to Also comment on how i got the deep bite. She saind my back teeth tip inwards since finishing orthodontics. This was because of lack of retention post orthodontics.
I tried to explain to her that that was absolutely not the case and why, but she said she doesn't wish to get into a fight about the past treatment. My logic was, then why did she comment on it?
I cannot use her diagnosis because of her opinion which she also stated was based on limited and incomplete records.
First attachment, letter from original orthodontist stating molars where tipped inwards by orthodontics.
Second attachment,see point 5, by cosmetic dentist stating that molars where uprighted by above orthodontics.
Lol this is what your up against when you take on these serpents.
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