jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: maverik46 on September 03, 2017, 10:50:04 PM
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Hi guys !!!
Dr. Z. has just emailed me with a possible date for the surgery in October 2017.
Now I'm starting to be a bit scared, also because I've just met a girl that I really like, and disappearing for more than 1 month is not good to build a relationship
I have a lot of questions and suggestions to ask to who already had this kind of surgery:
- Does the hip graft harvest affect having sex or doing sports like Crossfit (where there are lot of squats)? After how long you can have sex without pain and discomfort?
- After how long your face swelling and numbness will reduce noticeable to let you have a decent social life?
- Any suggestion about where to stay close to the DR. Z hospital in Berlin for the 2 weeks?
- Any suggestion about vitamin brand and integrators to use during recovery?
- It's difficult or discomfort to take the return flight after 2 weeks? All the people will staring at you like a freak ?
- Can someone sleep with you in the hospital room while you will stay there?
- Is it a big issue to have ZO and chin wing together?
- Do you think that ZO worth it with risk / benefits or is it better to avoid it?
- Do they put catheter for urine during surgery?
- How was your recovery in general?
Thank you very much in advance guys !!!
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Hi guys !!!
Dr. Z. has just emailed me with a possible date for the surgery in October 2017.
Now I'm starting to be a bit scared, also because I've just met a girl that I really like, and disappearing for more than 1 month is not good to build a relationship
I have a lot of questions and suggestions to ask to who already had this kind of surgery:
- Does the hip graft harvest affect having sex or doing sports like Crossfit (where there are lot of squats)? After how long you can have sex without pain and discomfort?
- After how long your face swelling and numbness will reduce noticeable to let you have a decent social life?
- Any suggestion about where to stay close to the DR. Z hospital in Berlin for the 2 weeks?
- Any suggestion about vitamin brand and integrators to use during recovery?
- It's difficult or discomfort to take the return flight after 2 weeks? All the people will staring at you like a freak ?
- Can someone sleep with you in the hospital room while you will stay there?
- Is it a big issue to have ZO and chin wing together?
- Do you think that ZO worth it with risk / benefits or is it better to avoid it?
- Do they put catheter for urine during surgery?
- How was your recovery in general?
Thank you very much in advance guys !!!
Good luck! I'm sure your results will be amazing. The only advice I have is just ice the area that hurts, sometimes the chin can hurt after a genioplasty or chin wing. Simple ice will help a lot and it will be totally gone within two weeks, even though it might feel like its there forever.
It's not a huge issue having the two together. Your recovery will be fine and much easier than you think. They will not put a catheter in you so don't worry about that. You'll be fully recovered within 3 weeks to a month.
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where are you travelling from?
do you have anyone coming with you?
Best wishes!
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The effects of the hip graft harvest vary greatly from person to person. Some can walk without feeling anything after a few days, while some experience pain. For me any movement was very painful the first days, and I couldn't walk without pain until the second week. Getting out of bed was particularly difficult and painful because you rely so much on your hip, at least I do, apparently. I don't think I would've been able to run or exercise until the 7th or 8th week, because I remember I still had some discomfort getting out of bed by the 5th week. It really depends on the person though, in terms of response to painkillers and also how you use the hip/iliac crest in daily tasks. Dr Z told me that most patients don't have problems like I did. One guy who had surgery the same day as me was walking without any problems the next day, so you may be more fortunate than me. I have no issues today, but this experience truly made me realize the importance of good health. That being said, I would do it again due to the aesthetic improvement and the importance of looks in society.
I wouldn't worry about the swelling too much, most of it will be gone in a few weeks, but it will take longer to see the final result. I doubt anyone will suspect that you had surgery. Good luck!
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where are you travelling from?
do you have anyone coming with you?
Best wishes!
I'm traveling from Italy, and my mother will come with me. The problem is that she don't speak any English or German ... :(
I was thinking to rent a room in a hotel close to the clinic for the 2 weeks so she can stay there, and when I will feel to leave the Hospital I'll go to the hotel too
I really hope that they will not use the catheter, otherwise I will ask for the "condom catheter"
I'm still not sure if I'll do also the Zygomatic Osteotomy because I'm not sure It will worth on me
Do you guys think that in 5 months I will be able to Snowboard again for example?
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Bone reminelazitaion takes 3 - 4 months. I guess you could snow board after 6 months. Impact injuries are what you really want to avoid till the bone is "fixed" there.
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PS - Did u see Zso B n as? Did they not help you decide if it was worth it or not? Dr Z may elect to only do CW if he feels you are bleeding too much or having some other issues.
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PS - Did u see Zso B n as? Did they not help you decide if it was worth it or not? Dr Z may elect to only do CW if he feels you are bleeding too much or having some other issues.
Yes I saw Zso Before and After during the first visit at Dr Z. studio , but I don't remember well because I was more focuse on the jaw and chin ..... but Dr. Z. proposed me the combo
I read on this forum that Zso could lead to get worse hollow eyes. Is this true?
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Are you getting chin wing for chin advancement or what?
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Yes I saw Zso Before and After during the first visit at Dr Z. studio , but I don't remember well because I was more focuse on the jaw and chin ..... but Dr. Z. proposed me the combo
I read on this forum that Zso could lead to get worse hollow eyes. Is this true?
I will PM you soon.
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Are you getting chin wing for chin advancement or what?
First of all because my face is a bit long and narrow, so i want reduce the length and increase the width. So I will ask to reduce a little the vertical eight of the chin and to advance it a little (I already had a sliding genioplasty but the change was minimum, no one has noticed it)
I'm not looking for an exaggerated square jaw like Brad Pitt .... I don't think would be ok on me
Also for me It's very important to reduce the asymmetry that I have on the chin and reduce the width of the chin probably, and It's very important the labiomental fold, I would like to reduce it and make it more rounded and smooth
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First of all because my face is a bit long and narrow, so i want reduce the length and increase the width. So I will ask to reduce a little the vertical eight of the chin and to advance it a little (I already had a sliding genioplasty but the change was minimum, no one has noticed it)
I'm not looking for an exaggerated square jaw like Brad Pitt .... I don't think would be ok on me
Also for me It's very important to reduce the asymmetry that I have on the chin and reduce the width of the chin probably, and It's very important the labiomental fold, I would like to reduce it and make it more rounded and smooth
Let us know how the surgery goes and if you are satisfied with results.
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Hopefully you keep us updated on how it goes. Best of luck, I hope the recovery is speedy!
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wow do you need to stay a full 2 weeks?
i would ask dr Z about the eye issue. I'd like to know as well. I know this poster is controversial at the moment, but SJ really did have a good result with the zso.
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may not have been perfect and i have no idea what he did in terms of filler to eyes if he did that, but compared to his before pics its a good improvement. that's my opinion.
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I think what ILTM said is worth taking into more consideration. Consider that someone with lowset-recessed and narrow cheek bones will have an improvement when more width is added and even when the low set cheek bones are pronouced outward more. Also, that it did not address his orbital rim area. So, if you need improvement in the same places he got improved, (width to narrow cheeks, projection to low set zygoma) and have no recession to the lower orbital rims), then maybe it will work for you.
But still, I would be cautious about basing an opinion on SJ's results which is also part of ILTM's message. If he's going around duping people that he doesn't own what he's pushing, I would not put it past him to have some how tweeked the results he got from the ZO, or ZSO so it looks better that what others might get out of it.
If I were you, I'd look for an example of of a patient who has had it with the doctor you wish to have it from who has nothing to lose by being TRUTHFUL about what results you can expect from it.
may not have been perfect and i have no idea what he did in terms of filler to eyes if he did that, but compared to his before pics its a good improvement. that's my opinion.
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I think what ILTM said is worth taking into more consideration. Consider that someone with lowset-recessed and narrow cheek bones will have an improvement when more width is added and even when the low set cheek bones are pronouced outward more. Also, that it did not address his orbital rim area. So, if you need improvement in the same places he got improved, (width to narrow cheeks, projection to low set zygoma) and have no recession to the lower orbital rims), then maybe it will work for you.
But still, I would be cautious about basing an opinion on SJ's results which is also part of ILTM's message. If he's going around duping people that he doesn't own what he's pushing, I would not put it past him to have some how tweeked the results he got from the ZO, or ZSO so it looks better that what others might get out of it.
If I were you, I'd look for an example of of a patient who has had it with the doctor you wish to have it from who has nothing to lose by being TRUTHFUL about what results you can expect from it.
I've seen SJ in person. He looks great and his zygos look very good. He's not duping anyone.
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Did he tell you he was the CFO of the consulting firm that owned 'analyzemyface' and he was also trademark owner of same?
I've seen SJ in person. He looks great and his zygos look very good. He's not duping anyone.
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Yea I definitely agree with that. He could have manipulated his eye area with filler or what have you. i mean i can't really trust it.
I do have recessive orbital area too so it's a concern of course. I'm not looking for a big change just a bit more width to my cheekbones would be great.
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I think what ILTM said is worth taking into more consideration. Consider that someone with lowset-recessed and narrow cheek bones will have an improvement when more width is added and even when the low set cheek bones are pronouced outward more. Also, that it did not address his orbital rim area. So, if you need improvement in the same places he got improved, (width to narrow cheeks, projection to low set zygoma) and have no recession to the lower orbital rims), then maybe it will work for you.
But still, I would be cautious about basing an opinion on SJ's results which is also part of ILTM's message. If he's going around duping people that he doesn't own what he's pushing, I would not put it past him to have some how tweeked the results he got from the ZO, or ZSO so it looks better that what others might get out of it.
If I were you, I'd look for an example of of a patient who has had it with the doctor you wish to have it from who has nothing to lose by being TRUTHFUL about what results you can expect from it.
Whatever SJ might or might not be, he's not duping people when it comes to his results. I've spoken a lot to him and he's always been open and honest about what worked for him and what didn't or was underwhelming.
And in the specific context of this topic; when i asked him if ZSO did much for his face he said "not really, no". Hardly the kind of endorsement a paid shill would give, stuff like this is why i still don't think these doctors are giving kickbacks to SJ/AMF.
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Whatever SJ might or might not be, he's not duping people when it comes to his results. I've spoken a lot to him and he's always been open and honest about what worked for him and what didn't or was underwhelming.
And in the specific context of this topic; when i asked him if ZSO did much for his face he said "not really, no". Hardly the kind of endorsement a paid shill would give, stuff like this is why i still don't think these doctors are giving kickbacks to SJ/AMF.
Did you know he was CFO of the corp that owns AMF and also trademark owner. Did he tell you that ? That's the salient question. As to his being 'open and honest', how many people was he 'open and honest' with when he hid he was shilling for his own business.
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Did you know he was CFO of the corp that owns AMF and also trademark owner. Did he tell you that ? That's the salient question. As to his being 'open and honest', how many people was he 'open and honest' with when he hid he was shilling for his own business.
no I didn't, salient it may be, but its not relevant to his actual results. You implied that he may be "playing up" the results of the ZSO, but in actual fact he has done the exact opposite, which is tell people its not very good.
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no I didn't, salient it may be, but its not relevant to his actual results. You implied that he may be "playing up" the results of the ZSO, but in actual fact he has done the exact opposite, which is tell people its not very good.
I didn't 'imply' it I basically said outright that I would not put it past him to tweak his ZO results as to give the appearance to those looking at his photos it was all the ZO. He's demonstrated as deceptive and dishonest which is why I wouldn't put it past him.
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Yea I definitely agree with that. He could have manipulated his eye area with filler or what have you. i mean i can't really trust it.
I do have recessive orbital area too so it's a concern of course. I'm not looking for a big change just a bit more width to my cheekbones would be great.
He hasn't manipulated anything. He has the defined jaw and zygos etc you can see in his pics just as IRL. In addition to what PPSK said above I will add that he did not recommend surgery for me or another guy I know who also met him - saying there are big aesthetic risks - he hasn't tried to push anyone into having it done AFAIK. He also recommends certain surgeons just because he had good results with them personally.. but just because he had success doesn't mean others will!
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He hasn't manipulated anything. He has the defined jaw and zygos etc you can see in his pics just as IRL. In addition to what PPSK said above I will add that he did not recommend surgery for me or another guy I know who also met him - saying there are big aesthetic risks - he hasn't tried to push anyone into having it done AFAIK. He also recommends certain surgeons just because he had good results with them personally.. but just because he had success doesn't mean others will!
He's manipulated a lot of people by talking up and leading them to his business and pretending he has no connection with it.
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no I didn't, salient it may be, but its not relevant to his actual results. You implied that he may be "playing up" the results of the ZSO, but in actual fact he has done the exact opposite, which is tell people its not very good.
If his current zygos are a result of ZSO alone, his result is very good.
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He hasn't manipulated anything. He has the defined jaw and zygos etc you can see in his pics just as IRL. In addition to what PPSK said above I will add that he did not recommend surgery for me or another guy I know who also met him - saying there are big aesthetic risks - he hasn't tried to push anyone into having it done AFAIK. He also recommends certain surgeons just because he had good results with them personally.. but just because he had success doesn't mean others will!
This.
Several people who PMd me in consensus building exercises regarding their cases told me SJ told them not to get any surgery. In these cases I had actually recommended surgery.
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He's manipulated a lot of people by talking up and leading them to his business and pretending he has no connection with it.
Ok look, I have never used the analyzemyface thing. Everything I say im just basing on how he was when I met him and we shot the s**t for a couple of hours. He told me about his experiences etc, alot of which I could relate to as a person who wants surgery to be happy with my appearance. I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, I don't want to argue about it.
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In most cases it is illegal for doctors to receive kickbacks so I really doubt any of his recommended doctors were in on it.
In Europe anyway.
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I also find it interesting that people assume that they know what would be the result of the ZSO or chinwing after all the procedures SJ got, whether they saw him in person or not.
I got Resty injected a while ago in the cheeks I had no cheekbones whatsoever. A few CC was enough to give me good high cheekbones. SJ got filler at least in the chin, jaw angles, and I believe he said also along the inferior ori's. How can you still determine what is filler and what is not? I'm surprised if you can. Since the surgeons I saw said I'd first have to get the filler dissolved before the could judge my recession, so you sure as hell would have better eyes and insight than most surgeons.
Also (attachment): this is the kind of s**t SJ spews on Lookism. How does he even come up with all these stories and how can anyone still take anything serious he says if he is lying so elaborately with such grandeur. And these are just a few details of all the elaborate stories he made up online. This is not one sweet lie that suits him well; this is an elaborate scheme of lies that he keeps insisting is the truth. If you think that there's no problem in that, then by all means follow whatever advice he gives. I'd personally could not listen to the bloke anymore and not draw in question any word he'd say.
"I've been a f**king lifelong member of that board sine it was f**king born."
Well give him credit, that wasn't a lie. ;D
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SJ has admitted his past has impacted his world view/ personality. Patrick Bateman is his oft assumed pseudonym heh.
ILTM makes valid points and tbh I have some similar concerns but still I feel SJ was kind of a pioneer for the site. I have personally witnessed people get good results who do not post them publicly. SJ did. I have a hard time believing he was far sighted enough for it all have to been some kind of marketing ploy for his then non existent website. His recent full face pics that he shared on lookism , ya , those are eyebrow raising. Even his posts there sway from cynical to saccharine (my "heartbreaking story " just LOL).
and also lets not hijack the poor op's thread. heh.
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You'd think so. But then there are many ways to arrange that. Just look at SJ's website, and read how that Italian surgeon says his surgery results are superior when his patients use AMF. There is a surgeon there saying his results are better when the patients use AMF!
Wow I didn't know that, I don't know much about it. That surgeon is an idiot then, he could potentially ruin a career he had to train maybe over 15 years for.
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ppsk, ukmaxfac, milli-meters
Sorry, guys but my advice (initially) to lamb (but valid for others too) still holds. She/he should exercise caution when relying on SJ's photos as key motivators.
The other part of my advice to lamb (which could help others too) was to look for
photos of patients who had noting to lose by being truthful. In other words, look for photos from OTHER patients of the doctor.
Doesn't matter how good he looks in person. How good of a person can he be given the deception he's used to promote his business. Clearly, his deception and manipulation to others in underhanded practices to promote his biz is NOT an issue for you guys.
Your entries all demonstrate that you want to run interference in his behalf and in reckless disregard that OTHERS might like to take into consideration his biz promotion conduct when evaluating ANY material he puts out, including but not limited to photos and verbal/written communications.
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ppsk, ukmaxfac, milli-meters
Sorry, guys but my advice (initially) to lamb (but valid for others too) still holds. She/he should exercise caution when relying on SJ's photos as key motivators.
The other part of my advice to lamb (which could help others too) was to look for
photos of patients who had noting to lose by being truthful. In other words, look for photos from OTHER patients of the doctor.
Doesn't matter how good he looks in person. How good of a person can he be given the deception he's used to promote his business. Clearly, his deception and manipulation to others in underhanded practices to promote his biz is NOT an issue for you guys.
Your entries all demonstrate that you want to run interference in his behalf and in reckless disregard that OTHERS might like to take into consideration his biz promotion conduct when evaluating ANY material he puts out, including but not limited to photos and verbal/written communications.
I'm not running anything on his behalf. I couldn't care less frankly. People are (hopefully) intelligent enough to make a reasoned decision based on their own logic, and not blindly following someone who had good results. It's not as if he's promoting surgeons who don't have good results ANYWAY (Zarrinbal has been spoken about for years here) as well as Marianetti.
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I'm not running anything on his behalf. I couldn't care less frankly. People are (hopefully) intelligent enough to make a reasoned decision based on their own logic, and not blindly following someone who had good results. It's not as if he's promoting surgeons who don't have good results ANYWAY (Zarrinbal has been spoken about for years here) as well as Marianetti.
Erm SJ is the one that STARTED people talking about those surgeons, he has been on here for years.
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Alright , we need a separate SJ thread in general chat.
Maverik's updates will be far more valuable than any SJ gossip and this may derail him.
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Also (attachment): this is the kind of s**t SJ spews on Lookism. How does he even come up with all these stories and how can anyone still take anything serious he says if he is lying so elaborately with such grandeur. And these are just a few details of all the elaborate stories he made up online. This is not one sweet lie that suits him well; this is an elaborate scheme of lies that he keeps insisting is the truth. If you think that there's no problem in that, then by all means follow whatever advice he gives. I personally would not be able to listen to the bloke anymore without drawing in question any word he'd say.
Good find as to the attachment.
That's a key example of his bulls**t charades, all orchestrated with the objective that he is not suspected of what he's up to. To do it, he PLAYS THE ROLE of someone 'independent' from the sock puppets he has created (PatrickB and andreanersani) which are HIM. That's one of his master performances on lookism.
All bulls**t. He's been on the Italian board since it was born but now HE is the owner. Andreanersani (signed up on 14/2/2012) and PatrickB (signed up on 1/2/2014) the "Founders" are his sockpuppets for his mystery meat AMF service. If anyone got banned by mentioning PatrickB and Andreanersani were the same, it would be he who banned them.
There was an Andrea Nersani on there way back but that used got deleted and later the name appropriated.
TYD (SJ) got guided by going to other websites in search of guidance. Think about it. IF he had such expert guidance from some 'andreanersani', he would not have been on other websites looking for advice.
In 2012 feeling cocky from the info he DATA MINED from other places, looks like he set up the sock puppet, andreanersani to guide other sock puppet screen names for himself as the one being guided by him. GAME was to be the guided one and have his sock puppet guide be the one with the link to the face analysis site after each response to his "patient" sock puppets.
His andreanersani fiverr.com sock puppet link showed a photo. It was a stock photo used for corporate photography sites. Later, he switched sock puppets and created the PatrickB imaginary person after he got a domain name for his analyze my face site, the one with a "team" of mystery meat doctors all convening together to advice the clueless suckers being gamed by him.
There is no "andreanersani" who is a "doctor" and there is no "PatrickB". It's all cloak and dagger GAMING he used to set up these sock puppets "guiding" him via his mysterymeat guidance service and to lead others to these "guides" by frequent mention of how he was so guided.
Good gaming though. But he slipped up in a few places with all his sock puppets when he posted his photos (on his Italian board) as; kevstroot6, who by the way is the GLOBAL MODERATOR of that board. You see, andreanersani who is not listed as having any mod powers, managed to edit kevstroot6's post. Now how could he do that if he were no longer around unless of course, he's TYD's (SJ here, kevstroot6 on italian board) sock puppet as in same poster. Then when kevstroot6 posted his photos, some members of the italian board recognized him and started addressing him as 'Patrick'.
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Alright , we need a separate SJ thread in general chat.
Maverik's updates will be far more valuable than any SJ gossip and this may derail him.
I doubt such a thread would be allowed on here and some of us don't have access to the private forum so you are just (unintentionally) asking to stop the dialogue on this scandal.
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Well , ya , I assumed general chat would allow such a topic.
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Well , ya , I assumed general chat would allow such a topic.
It would be logical... let's see.
I guess all that anyone cares about is if these doctors are involved like paying SJ commission and if everything said about the surgeons on here is true.
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I'm not running anything on his behalf. I couldn't care less frankly. People are (hopefully) intelligent enough to make a reasoned decision based on their own logic, and not blindly following someone who had good results. It's not as if he's promoting surgeons who don't have good results ANYWAY (Zarrinbal has been spoken about for years here) as well as Marianetti.
I would not assume much intelligence to the audience he managed to to lead to the biz he was promoting on there. After all, they were all blinded to his actions where he was using his photos as part and parcel of leading them to his biz. But that type of stupidity best remains there and not imported into here.
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If you look at SJ's personal pics (he was posting on FB to promote what turned out to be his own company in jawsurgery groups, this is how I saw his pics, since initially he had his personal pictures visible) not his groomed pics: his ori's were recessed. That is not to make him feel bad, since the bloke looks very good and way better than I ever will look. However, I found he was not as straightforward about his result as he made it out to be and I found it misleading. He even admitted using fillers in that area too and searching solutions for his ori's. His cheekbones too were lowset and the ZSO did nothing for the higher cheek/ori's it seemed (and again: the ZSO targets the lower part of the zygoma so it can't augment/address the ori's or higher malar area).
His biggest problem, aesthetically, is he is still recessed.
The gonial angles look so fake/ridic, too. Gonial angles like that don't occur often in the wild, and especially not on facial structure's like his, so it looks very out of place. He's starting to look like the human Ken doll person.
Your entries all demonstrate that you want to run interference in his behalf and in reckless disregard that OTHERS might like to take into consideration his biz promotion conduct when evaluating ANY material he puts out, including but not limited to photos and verbal/written communications.
I don't know if their entries suggest that. They're saying they had good experiences with him.
What their entries suggest to me is how skilled SJ is at manipulation and gaining trust. He did it to me, and I'm skeptical of everyone.
It would be logical... let's see.
I guess all that anyone cares about is if these doctors are involved like paying SJ commission and if everything said about the surgeons on here is true.
There's already a thread about SJ. The AMF/scam thread. Just post in there.
As to the doctors being involved, I have no reason to think they are except maybe the guy who quotes/endorses AMF. Pretty sure he is SJ's doctor for fillers and whatnot, so that he's talking up AMF is bizarre. Why would he do that? It makes no sense, so I wonder if SJ went in there and asked the guy about AMF and he made an offhand comment, then SJ used it. Dr. Z did write me, and this time I can confirm it's him. He was concerned about the thread and basically said all he did on SJ was the procedures mentioned.
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I guess all that anyone cares about is if these doctors are involved like paying SJ commission and if everything said about the surgeons on here is true.
Keep in mind all anyone knows is that he claims a team of mystery meat doctors all convening to perform the service and he's not disclosing. So there is no certainty of any commission. But enough uncertainty to wonder.
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I don't know if their entries suggest that. They're saying they had good experiences with him.
What their entries suggest to me is how skilled SJ is at manipulation and gaining trust. He did it to me, and I'm skeptical of everyone....
Agree. You expressed the kernel of it better than I did.
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Dr. Z did write me, and this time I can confirm it's him. He was concerned about the thread and basically said all he did on SJ was the procedures mentioned.
Wow, I guess surgeons do check out if anything is written about them publicly.
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A LOT of big name surgeons do atleast visit the forum from time to time. And if Dr Z said he did the mentioned procedures on SJ he certainly did not reveal anything that SJ had not voluntarily divulged previously.
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Not sure if the HIPAA policy in USA is also abroad. But he probably has permission from SJ to confirm he did his surgeries although there never has been any question Z did his ZOs and chinwings.
However, I think any reprimands Z has should be directed to SJ re his deceptive marketing tactics.
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I'm not sure about privacy laws overseas, nor I'm sure this qualifies as talking about someone's case:
I have not any connection to so called Mr. stupidjaws,
except that I have done several surgeries to him.
I think he's simply saying he has no connection to AMF or kickbacks, etc, as was being implied. He doesn't discuss the case.
As of now I don't think Z has anything to do with this and take him at face value. There's no evidence or reason not to.
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I'm not sure about privacy laws overseas, nor I'm sure this qualifies as talking about someone's case:
I think he's simply saying he has no connection to AMF or kickbacks, etc, as was being implied. He doesn't discuss the case.
As of now I don't think Z has anything to do with this and take him at face value. There's no evidence or reason not to.
Well yeah that's fair enough, he just wants to distance himself.
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I do not think it is fair to make accusations against surgeons based on conjecture. SJ has not got much to lose. Surgeons do.
FWIW , I know people who know SJ relatively well and it does not seem like his economic condition , at least superficially is indicative of any "commissions" type cash stream pouring in.
Anyway I will stop posting on this thread now because I feel its all taking a turn thats way too much of a speculative slippery slope. I hope I have not stated anything inappropriate.
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This is part of the problem with SJ and his many alts in other venues where Z is one of his star doctors and then patients go there. If one gets on a board saying they are unhappy, then enter Z to challenge the mod for housing the entry.
Z might not have this problem if patients found him with no involvement with SJ.
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Patients have just as much to lose if not more undergoing surgery and paying a lot out-of-pocket. Having pain over a year after surgery may not be a good situation to be in.
Inappropriate to whom?? Dr. Z?
Inappropriate in general. I guess I meant talking about SJ's economic situation at the moment.
I am a fan of Dr Z's work and would love to avail of his services but it is not based on SJ's (now dubious) word as is being implied. I know 2 people in real life , not forum posters , who had work done by him who got great very natural results and had only good things to say about Dr Z. Ofcourse , not everyone gets the same results but I trust these people and I saw their results in person. Not just pics.
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I do not think it is fair to make accusations against surgeons based on conjecture. SJ has not got much to lose. Surgeons do.
FWIW , I know people who know SJ relatively well and it does not seem like his economic condition , at least superficially is indicative of any "commissions" type cash stream pouring in.
Anyway I will stop posting on this thread now because I feel its all taking a turn thats way too much of a speculative slippery slope. I hope I have not stated anything inappropriate.
Straw man argument as to 'commissions' SJ might get from doctors. I did not see that accusation but maybe i missed it. The problem is that SJ's shady biz practices to promote while hiding disclosure of owning the biz and his failure to disclose who the 'mystery meat' doctors are performing the service his outfit owns has resulted in uncertainty as to whether or not those doctors are also associated with how SJ is conducting.
It's a legit uncertainty for people to have in light of SJ's other deceptive dealings. That's why I think those doctors (including Z) should be complaining to SJ.
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Well that is different than saying what surgeries SJ did or did not undergo with him. He's just clearing the air and trying to make people understand he has no business relationship with SJ, which is reasonable of course given the concerns that came up with AMF and SJ's behavior.
So that makes my worries about discussing SJ private info irrelevant (but I had understood from your post Z said he only performed specific surgeries on SJ and no other surgery, and now it appears he didn't discuss that at all).
Yeah, maybe I didn't paraphrase it correctly or wasn't clear, but what I was trying to say was that he basically said he had nothing to do with SJ other than doing the surgeries that SJ mentioned. I personally believe him.
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That's why I think those doctors (including Z) should be complaining to SJ.
IMO they should be complaining to SJ.
I was going about my own business...
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Well he's right to want to emphasize that, given the situation with AMF. Kavan does make a good point that he may better contact SJ too though.
Would it be possible to ask Dr. Z if he asked you priorly to remove a negative review (with the Spanish IP). Since if it was not Dr. Z that messaged you back then: I guess Dr. Z would merit to know too if someone is using his persona to contact mods. That is illegal and could really ruin his rep after all.
Yeah because that's something you'd confess to. ;D If it's true that he did it on that German board then who knows.
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Yes, if anyone did contact the mods in these past years pretending to be Dr. Z that is a crapshoot situation for Dr. Z to be in.
But do we know if that happened? Since on Progenica it was Dr. Z himself challenging posts of displeased patients.
Personally, I don't think it matters if it was someone pretending to be Z or Z himself IF it was a thing where Z would have requested similar. Since it was Z on the other board doing same/similar, it does look like something Z would/could have lodged.
But then again, if Z is accepting patients that find their way there via SJ's activities on boards, he's also gotta accept that some of them might not be as 'happy' as SJ is. He can probably count on SJ removing stuff from the italian board he has control over (under different alt) and make a case to the German board. But if he keeps reprimanding board admins to nix the bad and keep the good, a board owner could just counter and throw the baby out with the bath water to tell him no more discussion about him at all.
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Would it be possible to ask Dr. Z if he asked you priorly to remove a negative review (with the Spanish IP). Since if it was not Dr. Z that messaged you back then: I guess Dr. Z would merit to know too if someone is using his persona to contact mods. That is illegal and could really ruin his rep after all.
Dr. Z asked why I banned that account, with the Spanish IP, and I told him because the IP location was Spain, which didn't match the location of his practice, at which point he responded that he must have logged in while on vacation in Spain.
Since he wrote from a verifiable email address this time, I don't have any reason to question that.
Agree that asking to have certain reviews removed and not others is tacky.
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Dr. Z asked why I banned that account, with the Spanish IP, and I told him because the IP location was Spain, which didn't match the location of his practice, at which point he responded that he must have logged in while on vacation in Spain.
Since he wrote from a verifiable email address this time, I don't have any reason to question that.
Agree that asking to have certain reviews removed and not others is tacky.
Wow so it was Z after all? No doubt I will get banned for asking this but why did you ban Lestat?
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I was just wondering where Lestat was since I hadn't seen him for a while?
He emailed me and mentioned that GJ banned him for seemingly no reason
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IMO they should be complaining to SJ.
I was going about my own business...
Yeah. SJ's making problems for the mods, the doctors he's associated with and all because SJ elected to play a big game of charades as to hide behind multi sock puppets in the act of hiding and covering up his $$ connections to the biz he owned. It's HIM they should be complaining to. Not you.
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oh man , I was wondering where Lestat is too.
I wanted to discuss something important with him but could not send message. I thought maybe he just got sick of me and blocked me.
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oh man , I was wondering where Lestat is too.
I wanted to discuss something important with him but could not send message. I thought maybe he just got sick of me and blocked me.
Nope banned and now Ilovethemoon has deleted his message about Lestat out of fear no doubt.
It's pathetic, can we just discuss surgery and have some common sense here.
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Yeah. SJ's making problems for the mods, the doctors he's associated with and all because SJ elected to play a big game of charades as to hide behind multi sock puppets in the act of hiding and covering up his $$ connections to the biz he owned. It's HIM they should be complaining to. Not you.
Exactly.
Now I'm wasting time dealing with this, and I run this site for free no less. What infuriates me about SJ is he used my [free] site to infiltrate and try to find himself customers. Whether you think he was nice about it and/or it actually helped is no relevance to me. From my perspective: I'm running a free site to help and inform patients, and I have a guy coming in and abusing that gesture in order to make himself/his "friend" money via his elaborate scam. He used my site as a recruiting ground.
He emailed me and mentioned that GJ banned him for seemingly no reason
Mostly association. He's in Rome...where SJ is located.
Until I figure out what's up there and there's a connection I need to keep him banned. I'm pretty sure I did give that reason in the description when he logs in.
There have been a few other bans for the same reasons this past week. Have to clean out the forum of that nonsense.
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It's pathetic, can we just discuss surgery and have some common sense here.
That would be nice...
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Exactly.
Now I'm wasting time dealing with this, and I run this site for free no less. What infuriates me about SJ is he used my [free] site to infiltrate and try to find himself customers. Whether you think he was nice about it and/or it actually helped is no relevance to me. From my perspective: I'm running a free site to help and inform patients, and I have a guy coming in and abusing that gesture in order to make himself/his "friend" money via his elaborate scam. He used my site as a recruiting ground.
Mostly association. He's in Rome...where SJ is located.
Until I figure out what's up there and there's a connection I need to keep him banned. I'm pretty sure I did give that reason in the description when he logs in.
I think I can swear ion my life to you Lestat is not him he had too much knowledge on the Sailers to be SJ
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Exactly.
Now I'm wasting time dealing with this, and I run this site for free no less. What infuriates me about SJ is he used my [free] site to infiltrate and try to find himself customers. Whether you think he was nice about it and/or it actually helped is no relevance to me. From my perspective: I'm running a free site to help and inform patients, and I have a guy coming in and abusing that gesture in order to make himself/his "friend" money via his elaborate scam. He used my site as a recruiting ground.
I assume the 'you' is the generic plural. I'm the last one to think it was a nice thing to do.
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I do not think he means Lestat is SJ. Just maybe Lestat is involved in this ? No way , AFAIK.
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I think I can swear ion my life to you Lestat is not him he had too much knowledge on the Sailers to be SJ
Haha. True.
I never said it was him, but rather possible association with him.
I can reinstate him if everyone is on board that there's no relationship there.
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Haha. True.
I never said it was him, but rather possible association with him.
I can reinstate him if everyone is on board that there's no relationship there.
At this point I don't know if he will come back, you have banned him twice.
I know you do this free of charge and that is really great, I said you should try and earn something from it but I don't know if you get too paranoid sometimes or something but it seems people are often getting banned here fir no reason.
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Alright, reinstated Lestat.
Hopefully the drama ends here because we're beating a dead horse. Take SJ for what he is and make your own decisions now that you know.
I need to go do some work.
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Thanks GJ
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I think I can swear ion my life to you Lestat is not him he had too much knowledge on the Sailers to be SJ
Being smitten by Sailer isn't a good sign either.
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Being smitten by Sailer isn't a good sign either.
It is evidence that he was a Sailer patient which SJ is most certainly not.
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Being smitten by Sailer isn't a good sign either.
Bowie/AA/LOC loves him.
At this point I gave up on banning him ^ because he just comes back. As long as he acts normal no bans. This iteration, Bowie, has been the best one so far.
It might seem to some that people get banned for no reason, but you guys don't have all the information and responsibility of running this place. A lot of lunatics come through here, and given the Elliot Rodgers situation, etc, it's not worth any risk to me to have psychos on the forum. The forum has actually been better since I banned all those people. Slower but better where people are back to talking about jaw surgery and procedures (well, except this thread) instead of 1mm minutia of their eyelids.
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It is evidence that he was a Sailer patient which SJ is most certainly not.
Yes. I understand that. I should have said being smitten by Sailer isn't a good sign in it's own right.
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Bowie/AA/LOC loves him.
At this point I gave up on banning him because he just comes back. As long as he acts normal no bans.
It might seem to you that people get banned for no reason, but you don't have all the information and responsibility of running this place. A lot of lunatics come through here, and given the Elliot Rodgers situation, etc, it's not worth any risk to me to have psychos on the forum. The forum has actually been better since I banned all those people. Slower but better where people are back to talking about jaw surgery and procedures (well, except this thread) instead of 1mm minutia of their eyelids.
Ok GJ I get that fair point. Haha I certainly don't love Sailer, his wife ruined me financially but that is another story. Oh you know what I'm not even going to argue this I don't owe any of you a damn on here, who is it that gave this inside story on him? IMO he is or was a good surgeon but negative people influence his practice.
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When the OP returns to his thread , his mind will be blown.
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Well at least he will know Dr. Z also follows-up on his surgery on this forum.
Lmao
Well since this thread is already derailed I will just get this off my chest, a very "loud" (past) member said I was getting kickbacks from my surgeon to talk about him on here. Quell surprise patients talk about their surgeons, that is the point of these forums no?
Now it looks like Falco is being accused of promoting Dr Z on MissJ just for talking about him??
Now I try to refrain from naming my surgeon on here out of fear from being accused of "promotion".
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By that time you'd wonder why the surgeon doesn't prefer to talk with the patient and try to address concerns of the patient (and at least one of those patients said that did not happen).
Well, with that negative review Z wanted removed, he did say he talked in great detail many times with the patient.
In the end he didn't think what the patient was saying was accurate.
That's fine, does happen, he could have been right, and i would have removed it: he just needed to agree to having me remove the positive reviews as well since I'm not hearing both sides of the story on those and had no clue of the validity. Once I told him that, I never heard back about the issue.
It's best to let this drop because there's nothing to deduct other than Z doesn't like negative reviews. From everything I have seen Z is fine other than the issue of wanting negative reviews removed, but that's probably every doctor.
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His biggest problem, aesthetically, is he is still recessed.
The gonial angles look so fake/ridic, too. Gonial angles like that don't occur often in the wild, and especially not on facial structure's like his, so it looks very out of place. He's starting to look like the human Ken doll person.
I was not gonna say this, since SJ was nice to me, he is not here to defend himself and I know what it's like to have a less than ideal jaw surgery result. But since you've already said this... what you say here is spot on. SJ is a perfect example of the importance of a well-executed primary jaw surgery. People are simply fooled by his great features (and perhaps filler). The importance of good features is vastly underestimated by the "moving the bones in my face will turn me into a model, rah rah rah" brigade which has infested this place. I know this personally because dentofacial deformities run in my family, yet some relatives have attractive faces in spite of them.
Had SJ had a proper primary jaw surgery, everything would've popped into place and he would have simply looked like the normal handsome guy that he was meant to be. Instead he has gone down this rabbit hole of trying to camouflage things. Even his bite looks off (even if he made no money from it, promoting quackery like weird palatal expansion appliances was misleading - they only thing those things accomplish is wreck your teeth). From memory his surgeon was Sandro Pelo. Looks like that guy is rubbish.
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Well at least he will know Dr. Z also follows-up on his surgery on this forum.
It looks like he's on a (doc sponsored?) forum where addresses queries.
http://www.portal-der-schoenheit.de/schoenheitschirurg/forum/berlin/dr-med-ramin-zarrinbal-1/0.html
new addition: Site says he is premium member and translation of such is:
Plastic surgeons have the opportunity to register free of charge with basic information (basic member).
Portal of beauty offers physicians the possibility of a detailed presentation (premium membership). Doctors who use this option are Premium members and pay a membership fee for the detailed presentation. You have the possibility to publish free texts, editorial articles and also pictures.
The term "premium member" does not constitute a quality factor.
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I was not gonna say this, since SJ was nice to me, he is not here to defend himself and I know what it's like to have a less than ideal jaw surgery result. But since you've already said this... what you say here is spot on. SJ is a perfect example of the importance of a well-executed primary jaw surgery. People are simply fooled by his great features (and perhaps filler). The importance of good features is vastly underestimated by the "moving the bones in my face will turn me into a model, rah rah rah" brigade which has infested this place. I know this personally because dentofacial deformities run in my family, yet some relatives have attractive faces in spite of them.
Had SJ had a proper primary jaw surgery, everything would've popped into place and he would have simply looked like the normal handsome guy that he was meant to be. Instead he has gone down this rabbit hole of trying to camouflage things. Even his bite looks off (even if he made no money from it, promoting quackery like weird palatal expansion appliances was misleading - they only thing those things accomplish is wreck your teeth). From memory his surgeon was Sandro Pelo. Looks like that guy is rubbish.
He did have a proper primary jaw surgery.
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I was not gonna say this, since SJ was nice to me, he is not here to defend himself and I know what it's like to have a less than ideal jaw surgery result. But since you've already said this... what you say here is spot on. SJ is a perfect example of the importance of a well-executed primary jaw surgery. People are simply fooled by his great features (and perhaps filler). The importance of good features is vastly underestimated by the "moving the bones in my face will turn me into a model, rah rah rah" brigade which has infested this place. I know this personally because dentofacial deformities run in my family, yet some relatives have attractive faces in spite of them.
Had SJ had a proper primary jaw surgery, everything would've popped into place and he would have simply looked like the normal handsome guy that he was meant to be. Instead he has gone down this rabbit hole of trying to camouflage things. Even his bite looks off (even if he made no money from it, promoting quackery like weird palatal expansion appliances was misleading - they only thing those things accomplish is wreck your teeth). From memory his surgeon was Sandro Pelo. Looks like that guy is rubbish.
Great features? Have u seen his original pics? Hook nose + thin lips.He had more work done than he has admitted , no doubt.
https://imgur.com/g2EXZMe What chin wing did for him from front beats most conventional jaw surgery results ive seen.
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Great features? Have u seen his original pics? Hook nose + thin lips.He had more work done than he has admitted , no doubt.
https://imgur.com/g2EXZMe What chin wing did for him from front beats most conventional jaw surgery results ive seen.
What are you talking about? He never had thin lips. As to features, the photo blocks them out. He's got good eyes and was a cute kid. You can't say the chin wing beats conventional jaw surgery either because he got that after the jaw surgery. Bi-max doesn't elongate the jaw angle aspect or wing them out. But in some cases it has to come first before you make other alterations.
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old pix - http://i.imgur.com/MPl6lEs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PpnYxHT.jpg?1
later - http://i.imgur.com/TgAglvg.jpg
Compare the lip volume , especially upper.
Obviously chin wing doesnt compete with jaw surgery functionally. He needed bimax. I said from front. The width. Anyway whatever.
He has so many pics up in a lot of places where I've seen his boy pics with the lips. Anyway, found a recent one. (https://piknu.com/m/1591963081227273306_1601451808)
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He has so many pics up in a lot of places where I've seen his boy pics with the lips. Anyway, found a recent one. https://piknu.com/m/1591963081227273306_1601451808
At this point I think we all just need to see pictures of his boy lips to evaluate the case further, they could have started out tight and then become inflamed for all we know.
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He did have a proper primary jaw surgery.
I know he did. It was terrible.
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Somehow I thought Z did SJ's bimax? Actually I recall him telling me bits about the bimax consult with Z - conservative movements but came out without any complications
EDIT - I stand corrected.
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Somehow I thought Z did SJ's bimax?
No he did not. Pelo did. Get your SJ lore right , Sir.
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Are you guys jackals or what? Stop sharing the dudes pics - especially his IG and kid pictures.
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If you are talking about the pics I shared on imgur. Those were mass fwded by SJ himself on lookism. He can delete them any time he wants.
Ya idk about posting that private account though Kavan.
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If you are talking about the pics I shared on imgur. Those were mass fwded by SJ himself on lookism. He can delete them any time he wants.
Ya idk about posting that private account though Kavan.
How can it be a private account. Found it by hitting one of his photos and it came up.
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You've gotta say: the dude looks fantastic in those pics, albeit completely different from other pics again and the filler is a bit much and looks over the top sometimes. But the guy looks good!
It would be fair to remove that link though imo, Kavan. That is a link to his private picture account. Doesn't seem fair to share it; let the guy at least have some privacy. He used fraudulent marketing ploys and that's not cool; but to put all his private info, pics that he didn't share himself, and accounts on here is not good imo.
I'm not seeing how it's a private account. I 'hit' one of his many pics, then hit google search for similar and it came up. Let me see if I can make it so just the pic comes up.
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I'm not seeing how it's a private account. I 'hit' one of his many pics, then hit google search for similar and it came up. Let me see if I can make it so just the pic comes up.
Just tried. Went into my post where the link was. highlighted the link and chose 'insert image' so just the image showed. But image did not show and link disappeared.
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Now we're analyzing his face. Oh the irony!
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Now we're analyzing his face. Oh the irony!
i like it as teh title of a new movie directed by Pedro Almodovar :
ANALYZE HIS FACE
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LMAO, wtf is this mess.
I should be coming online more often. All this tea that I missed. :'(
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LMAO, wtf is this mess.
I should be coming online more often. All this tea that I missed. :'(
Can imagine you scrolling through 8 pages looking for info on CW + ZSO.
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As to the long string, it probably shouldn't matter to the OP. Certainly in the absence of any photos, he couldn't have expected much feedback as to the the procedures he was getting would be those to address his aesthetic issues. Besides, a lot of the questions he was asking as to wait times before some physical activities were the type best asked to the doctor directly.
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I meant the alienated Triot ofc.
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:O Holy s**t. This could be me writing this. I'm having the same procedures on the 4th of October with Dr. Zarrinbal
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:O Holy s**t. This could be me writing this. I'm having the same procedures on the 4th of October with Dr. Zarrinbal
Please post review and results post procedure.
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:O Holy s**t. This could be me writing this. I'm having the same procedures on the 4th of October with Dr. Zarrinbal
lol , why so "holy s**t" ? Dr Z does plenty of those. Its kind of his standard package.
Good luck , hope you get awesome results. Do update us on your results 2 - 3 months later please.
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Where is OP though
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yeah can we quit the convo on this thread till the OP shows up. I keep checking it and just end up drowned in these pointless discussions.
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Reporting in from a hospital bed in Dr. Zarrinbals clinic. Surgery went well but I'm very swollen. Don't know if OP is here too....
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Reporting in from a hospital bed in Dr. Butterballs clinic. Surgery went well but I'm very swollen. Don't know if OP is here too....
Congrats bro! Rest well. Keep us up to date. Hope you're not in any serious pain?
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Reporting in from a hospital bed in Dr. Butterballs clinic. Surgery went well but I'm very swollen. Don't know if OP is here too....
did you get both the chin wing and ZSO? Or bi-max or something else?
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He got zso + cw
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Had an unfortunate setback though...Dr. Zarrinbal was only able to perform the chin wing as the surgery took a lot longer than expected. I will return for my zso in a few months time. Bummer, but he knows what he's doing and I'm happy with the chin wing.
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It's November.
Maverick,
How did the surgery turn out?
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Hi guys,
unfortunately I had to postpone my surgery at the beginning of December for work questions ....... so no surgery yet!! But I'm f**king scared, expecially for the Iliac bone graft.
I would like to be able go back to do snowboard at the same level, and I'm scared of nerve injuries at sexual level
I booked a apartment close to the clinic for 2 weeks, but I've still doubt if do it or not ..... I'm really scared
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Hi guys,
unfortunately I had to postpone my surgery at the beginning of December for work questions ....... so no surgery yet!! But I'm f**king scared, expecially for the Iliac bone graft.
I would like to be able go back to do snowboard at the same level, and I'm scared of nerve injuries at sexual level
I booked a apartment close to the clinic for 2 weeks, but I've still doubt if do it or not ..... I'm really scared
You sound like quite the gyrater; full hip range of hip flexibility and not just a pumper.
Although your fears are not unfounded, (they are found in the risks of the surgery) the best way to put them in perspective is to read research papers which reflect the major complication rate observed and how they are prevented.
When doing your research, don't Google s**t like 'risk of not being able to snow board and f*ck my brains out after chin wing.' Instead, Google for; 'Complications of iliac crest bone graft harvesting.'
Here's one paper. Many are there to find with the appropriate search.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3820742/
ETA: Another thing to consider is if there are others, beside yourself and the doctor, who have told you that this procedure would directly address what ever your main aesthetic problem is.
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no body showing now resutls. been hearing bad things
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no body showing now resutls. been hearing bad things
What do you mean ?
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What do you mean ?
sorry i should have qualified that remark. no one has been showing results so I'm skeptical. I actually hear amazing things about the procedure and then others that suggest you temper your expectations. but fof f**ks sake no one on this forum except for ST or SB or whatever he was called showed us his results. I'm sure the illiac crest part is the easiest thing about it.
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sorry i should have qualified that remark. no one has been showing results so I'm skeptical. I actually hear amazing things about the procedure and then others that suggest you temper your expectations. but fof f**ks sake no one on this forum except for ST or SB or whatever he was called showed us his results. I'm sure the illiac crest part is the easiest thing about it.
Well actually I remember that baldguy83 showed his result as I remember ...
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Well actually I remember that baldguy83 showed his result as I remember ...
will you show yours with cropped out face?
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will you show yours with cropped out face?
Probably ... if I'll not change my mind the last minute and I'll not undergo the surgery because too scared :)
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Probably ... if I'll not change my mind the last minute and I'll not undergo the surgery because too scared :)
Dude the hipgraft and operation are the smoothest things in the world. You may not 100 percent have the results you wanted but that's the worst thing that can happen. Fear isn't an issue with this operation.
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Dude the hipgraft and operation are the smoothest things in the world. You may not 100 percent have the results you wanted but that's the worst thing that can happen. Fear isn't an issue with this operation.
I'm not looking for big movements with chin wing.
For me it's more important the symmetry because I have a small asymmetry between my jaw angle, and I would like to compensate it
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It's like Lazlo says.
The risk of your fears about the harvest part are very low. So, just make sure it would not be the 'worst' thing for you if you didn't get 100% correction of it.
Even if there were no hip harvest involved, it's still an invasive procedure for a small asymmetry.
I also think it's inconciderate to the doctor to give yourself the option to crap out at the last minute. You should deal with your fear factor of whether you want it or not on your own time.
Seriously dude, the best time to entertain what ever fears you have about a surgery is before you book one. Step 1: Ask around for patient experiences. Step 2: Bring them up to the doctor during a consult. Step 3: Book ONLY IF you've put things in perspective and have made the DECISION that the potential risks are worth the potential pay-offs.
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It's like Lazlo says.
The risk of your fears about the harvest part are very low. So, just make sure it would not be the 'worst' thing for you if you didn't get 100% correction of it.
Even if there were no hip harvest involved, it's still an invasive procedure for a small asymmetry.
I also think it's inconciderate to the doctor to give yourself the option to crap out at the last minute. You should deal with your fear factor of whether you want it or not on your own time.
Seriously dude, the best time to entertain what ever fears you have about a surgery is before you book one. Step 1: Ask around for patient experiences. Step 2: Bring them up to the doctor during a consult. Step 3: Book ONLY IF you've put things in perspective and have made the DECISION that the potential risks are worth the potential pay-offs.
I thought a lot about the surgery. And I did a lot of simulations. I think that I really would be much better with a wider jaw angle. The problem of the asymmetry is that I think that one side have to be increased less than the other because is already larger than the other ....
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is the hip graft for the chin wing or ZO? is he using any material for the ZO?
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I thought a lot about the surgery. And I did a lot of simulations. I think that I really would be much better with a wider jaw angle. The problem of the asymmetry is that I think that one side have to be increased less than the other because is already larger than the other ....
Think about surgeries IN TERMS of resolving to a DEFINITE decision 'for' or 'against' having them and not in terms of booking them to prolong INDECISION with option to crap out at last minute.
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oh god can this thread stop being updated with all this drivel. just get a surgery and then come back and tell us how it went.
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Hi guys, I'm now 11 days after surgery. I had chin wing, but not ZO.
Everything went well. I like the result so far, It really improved me from the front view. The swelling was massive till the 7 - 8 day, than it started to go down and now most of it is gone. I still have some discomfort on my leg ( a bit of numbness and pain on the side of my leg), but I can walk since the second day. My biggest problem was a side injury on my throat caused by the intubation, that caused me more pain than the hip-graft and the chin-wing itself.
I would like to ask to anyone had this surgery before, after how long they got back sensibility on the chin and lower lip area? After how long they finished the liquid diet and started to eat back normally?
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Hi guys, I'm now 11 days after surgery. I had chin wing, but not ZO.
Everything went well. I like the result so far, It really improved me from the front view. The swelling was massive till the 7 - 8 day, than it started to go down and now most of it is gone. I still have some discomfort on my leg ( a bit of numbness and pain on the side of my leg), but I can walk since the second day. My biggest problem was a side injury on my throat caused by the intubation, that caused me more pain than the hip-graft and the chin-wing itself.
I would like to ask to anyone had this surgery before, after how long they got back sensibility on the chin and lower lip area? After how long they finished the liquid diet and started to eat back normally?
Can you post a before/after pic please? I think we would all be really excited to see how it looks like.
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After how long they got back sensibility on the chin and lower lip area?
I only lost feeling in my lower lip. Everything returned within 4 weeks.
After how long they finished the liquid diet and started to eat back normally?
2 weeks.
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Can you post a before/after pic please? I think we would all be really excited to see how it looks like.
For now I don't feel to put pictures.
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is the lower lip numbness permanent?
if you don't have the feeling back in 1 month then it will be forever most likely
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is the lower lip numbness permanent?
if you don't have the feeling back in 1 month then it will be forever most likely
I'm just 12 days after surgery, my lower lip is just partially numb, but the chin completely numb
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I'm just 12 days after surgery, my lower lip is just partially numb, but the chin completely numb
Doesn't Dr. Z discharge patients with a read out about the normal healing process so you know what to expect? From some of your questions where you are in the lurch about time ranges of 'how long', it appears that he doesn't.
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Doesn't Dr. Z discharge patients with a read out about the normal healing process so you know what to expect? From some of your questions where you are in the lurch about time ranges of 'how long', it appears that he doesn't.
Yes he does, but i wanted to read real life experiences of other patients ....
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Yes he does, but i wanted to read real life experiences of other patients ....
Oh, OK. I don't know the time ranges for nerves to get back to normal. But as long as he gave you a time range and you are within it, you should be fine.
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yeah chin will likely never regain full feeling
and the lower lip probably not 70 percent you'll always have some numbness there.
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What happened to Maverik? Anyone know how his chin wing turned out? He probably didn't want to post pics after his thread was utterly hijacked.
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What happened to Maverik? Anyone know how his chin wing turned out? He probably didn't want to post pics after his thread was utterly hijacked.
Some people just get on to ask questions before a surgery and don't 'give back' afterwards. Nothing stops him from starting a new thread.
ETA: His last log in was TODAY.
ETA: Maybe he has specialized knowledge of a magical result and is wanting to hoard it to keep you oblivious.
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ETA: Maybe he has specialized knowledge of a magical result and is wanting to hoard it to keep you oblivious.
LOL.
It's safe to say he had a good result. If the surgery didn't achieve what he wanted he'd surely make a thread about It for support/ advice/ venting. At the very least we can assume wasn't done poorly or made him worse off
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LOL.
It's safe to say he had a good result. If the surgery didn't achieve what he wanted he'd surely make a thread about It for support/ advice/ venting. At the very least we can assume wasn't done poorly or made him worse off
Yes. Safe to say. On page #9 reply #127 of this thread, he checked in to report he was satisfied. Had a few more entries after that asking questions and a few answering them, one of which stating he doesn't want to share photos.
Since this is a long thread, hope the mention of which page to look at eases your navigation of his updates.
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Some people just get on to ask questions before a surgery and don't 'give back' afterwards. Nothing stops him from starting a new thread.
ETA: His last log in was TODAY.
ETA: Maybe he has specialized knowledge of a magical result and is wanting to hoard it to keep you oblivious.
Good I'll be sure to post the results of a new procedure for cheekbones and gonial angles in a private thread and have him blocked from seeing it. Motherf**ker should have at least provided a very detailed account of results or blocked his eyes out and shared pictures of the jaw at least (have teh face could be blocked).
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Good I'll be sure to post the results of a new procedure for cheekbones and gonial angles in a private thread and have him blocked from seeing it. Motherf**ker should have at least provided a very detailed account of results or blocked his eyes out and shared pictures of the jaw at least (have teh face could be blocked).
I noted his basic inconsideration (booking a surgery and giving himself the option to crap out at the last minute) on page #9 Reply#122. Strong elements here of being a taker and not a giver.
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Yes. Safe to say. On page #9 reply #127 of this thread, he checked in to report he was satisfied. Had a few more entries after that asking questions and a few answering them, one of which stating he doesn't want to share photos.
Since this is a long thread, hope the mention of which page to look at eases your navigation of his updates.
Yeah I seen that but it was kind of vague. I was hoping he'd elaborate. Thanks for helping out though it's much appreciated. He said he improved from the frontal view but did it give him a U shape jaw? Just questions like that I'm curious about.
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Yeah I seen that but it was kind of vague. I was hoping he'd elaborate. Thanks for helping out though it's much appreciated. He said he improved from the frontal view but did it give him a U shape jaw? Just questions like that I'm curious about.
No idea. Maybe he will see this and report.
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Went back and did the Zygomatic Sandwhich Osteotomy that he couldn't perform in October. He moved the cheekbones forward 7mm and widened them with 7mm in one movement, he also added bone at the top of the cheekbones to make them appear higher. Very pleased with the result, the satisfaction of waking up, touching my face and feeling two solid protruding cheekbones was incredible. Still very swollen though.
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he also added bone at the top of the cheekbones to make them appear higher.
Was it a graft from your bone or cadaver and which type of bone?
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Was it a graft from your bone or cadaver and which type of bone?
It was a hip bone graft, so now I have a scar on each hip
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Went back and did the Zygomatic Sandwhich Osteotomy that he couldn't perform in October. He moved the cheekbones forward 7mm and widened them with 7mm in one movement, he also added bone at the top of the cheekbones to make them appear higher. Very pleased with the result, the satisfaction of waking up, touching my face and feeling two solid protruding cheekbones was incredible. Still very swollen though.
Do not be a fool. A movement of 7mm forward is not possible. Laterally it is feasible.
In addition, I find it a nonsense to add iliac crest bone at the top of the cheekbones. It is very unpredictable and the risk of resorption is very high. A well-known surgeon from Switzerland once said to me that it is the material that is the first to be resorbed.
Moreover, it also causes bone erosion when used as an onlay and can get infected. Although it is not foreign material it "grows" into the bone just like each other material, even if it is fixed with titanium screws to prevent it from shifting. (Even if we only speak of a few millimeters, it is precisely these that make the difference).
It was a hip bone graft, so now I have a scar on each hip
You could have used Bio Oss or Hydroxyapatite (HA) blocks to fill the gap (Inlay), then you would have spared another scar.
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Do not be a fool. A movement of 7mm forward is not possible. Laterally it is feasible.
In addition, I find it a nonsense to add iliac crest bone at the top of the cheekbones. It is very unpredictable and the risk of resorption is very high. A well-known surgeon from Switzerland once said to me that it is the material that is the first to be resorbed.
Moreover, it also causes bone erosion when used as an onlay and can get infected. Although it is not foreign material it "grows" into the bone just like each other material, even if it is fixed with titanium screws to prevent it from shifting. (Even if we only speak of a few millimeters, it is precisely these that make the difference).
You could have used Bio Oss or Hydroxyapatite (HA) blocks to fill the gap (Inlay), then you would have spared another scar.
And so Dr Z is ignoring these supposed facts? Somehow I doubt it's that black and white.
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Do not be a fool. A movement of 7mm forward is not possible. Laterally it is feasible.
In addition, I find it a nonsense to add iliac crest bone at the top of the cheekbones. It is very unpredictable and the risk of resorption is very high. A well-known surgeon from Switzerland once said to me that it is the material that is the first to be resorbed.
Moreover, it also causes bone erosion when used as an onlay. Although it is not foreign material it "grows" into the bone just like each other material, even if it is fixed with titanium screws to prevent it from shifting. (Even if we only speak of a few millimeters, it is precisely these that make the difference).
You could have used Bio Oss or Hydroxyapatite (HA) blocks to fill the gap (Inlay), then you would have spared another scar.
How am I a fool, I'm simply relaying what he told me? Dr. Zarrinbal explained repeatedly that he moved 7mm forward and outwards. I explicitly asked for him to clarify that point seeing as I've seen people say ZSO is only lateral on here. Perhaps this was a modified ZSO, as I understand it the procedure is relatively new and might have evolved quickly and recently.
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And so Dr Z is ignoring these supposed facts? Somehow I doubt it's that black and white.
You should ask him if the risk of resorption is really high with iliac crest bone, and if it causes bone erosion and then tell us what he said. I think the risk of infection is relatively low.
I did not invent that, on the contrary, these are scientific facts.
Otherwise, many more surgeons would use iliac crest bone instead of medpor or silicone as augmentation material.
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And so Dr Z is ignoring these supposed facts? Somehow I doubt it's that black and white.
Somehow, I'll take the word of surgeons (Swiss, no less) above that of anonymous dilettantes.
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How am I a fool, I'm simply relaying what he told me? Dr. Zarrinbal explained repeatedly that he moved 7mm forward and outwards. I explicitly asked for him to clarify that point seeing as I've seen people say ZSO is only lateral on here. Perhaps this was a modified ZSO, as I understand it the procedure is relatively new and might have evolved quickly and recently.
I'm just telling you to develop the ability to critically question things.
A forward movement of 7mm would require to completely separate the segment from the mid-face. Another cut would be needed around the zygomatic arch. Although that's quite feasible, I do not think he did that. That would be too dangerous and would be more like a Modified Lefort 3, not a Zygomatic Sandwich Osteotomy.
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Do not be a fool. A movement of 7mm forward is not possible. Laterally it is feasible.
In addition, I find it a nonsense to add iliac crest bone at the top of the cheekbones. It is very unpredictable and the risk of resorption is very high. A well-known surgeon from Switzerland once said to me that it is the material that is the first to be resorbed.
Moreover, it also causes bone erosion when used as an onlay and can get infected. Although it is not foreign material it "grows" into the bone just like each other material, even if it is fixed with titanium screws to prevent it from shifting. (Even if we only speak of a few millimeters, it is precisely these that make the difference).
You could have used Bio Oss or Hydroxyapatite (HA) blocks to fill the gap (Inlay), then you would have spared another scar.
Well, the surface of the CUT aspect of the iliac crest bone needs contact with either bone or other material so it does not resorb. You know.. the 'raw' part or part that the knife went through to harvest it can't be left exposed. However, the non 'raw' part eg. the very top of the illiac spine would not tend to resorb.
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I'm just telling you to develop the ability to critically question things.
A forward movement of 7mm would require to completely separate the segment from the mid-face. Another cut would be needed around the zygomatic arch. Although that's quite feasible, I do not think he did that. That would be too dangerous and would be more like a Modified Lefort 3, not a Zygomatic Sandwich Osteotomy.
Contact him and ask him yourself. I see no reason why he would deceive me. I had already decided on the surgery before I knew of the foward movement so it wasn't like he lured me in with false promises. ZSO doesn't touch the orbitals, only the outermost part of the cheekbone is moved, I fail to see how something that doesn't even touch the orbitals could be compared to Lefort 3 in terms of risk.
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Somehow, I'll take the word of surgeons (Swiss, no less) above that of anonymous dilettantes.
Yeah all I said was apparently Dr Z doesn't see those risks to be as high or severe as this Swiss doc does, or else he probably wouldn't have performed that surgery. But you can call Dr Z a dilettante I guess, since you're so sure he's wrong.
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You should ask him if the risk of resorption is really high with iliac crest bone, and if it causes bone erosion and then tell us what he said. I think the risk of infection is relatively low.
I did not invent that, on the contrary, these are scientific facts.
Otherwise, many more surgeons would use iliac crest bone instead of medpor or silicone as augmentation material.
Science has it that SURFACE CONTACT is needed to the exposed CUT surface of the bone. So, if the slice of iliac crest bone has 2 EXPOSED surface cuts, it needs to make direct contact, usually as a BONE BUTTRESS between the mandible which also has 2 exposed cut surfaces from being cut. Basically, any exposed bone cut, if left exposed will tend to resorb which is why SURFACE CONTACT with something else is needed to reduce chances of resorption.
If the harvest SLICE has only ONE exposed surface cut to it, that's the part which needs to make direct bone contact. The INTACT part of it doesn't.
It's highly unlikely, the doctor left any exposed surface cut on 'top' of the cheek bone (because he too would know the science of this). It's more likely that the part left on 'top' of the cheek bone was the INTACT surface of the iliac spine.
By the way, I'm not deferring to anything a Swiss surgeon told me, NOR any affinity to Dr. Z. I'm deferring to my degree in science from MIT.
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Well I think its cool that Grendelgog had this surgery and has prominent cheekbones now.
Would you be will to share pics brah? I mean if it was moved 7mm forward then you definitely have a very prominent result so you should be able to measure or tell your self from a before and after selfie and 3/4 view. You'd look VERY different in a good way I think.
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Science has it that SURFACE CONTACT is needed to the exposed CUT surface of the bone. So, if the slice of iliac crest bone has 2 EXPOSED surface cuts, it needs to make direct contact, usually as a BONE BUTTRESS between the mandible which also has 2 exposed cut surfaces from being cut. Basically, any exposed bone cut, if left exposed will tend to resorb which is why SURFACE CONTACT with something else is needed to reduce chances of resorption.
If the harvest SLICE has only ONE exposed surface cut to it, that's the part which needs to make direct bone contact. The INTACT part of it doesn't.
It's highly unlikely, the doctor left any exposed surface cut on 'top' of the cheek bone (because he too would know the science of this). It's more likely that the part left on 'top' of the cheek bone was the INTACT surface of the iliac spine.
By the way, I'm not deferring to anything a Swiss surgeon told me, NOR any affinity to Dr. Z. I'm deferring to my degree in science from MIT.
OK. And that means specifically? How much of the iliac crest bone do you think resorbs then?
The resorption behavior of iliac crest bone is very unpredictable. In addition it resorbs unevenly. Anyway, it erodes the cheekbone on which it is located over the years.
Instead of the iliac crest, I would have opted for lyophilized cartilage. Not only does it not cause bone erosion because it is "sewed" into the soft tissues, it is also less susceptible to resorption. Some of it even calcifies! What a pity that so few surgeons know the power of this material!
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OK. And that means specifically? How much of the iliac crest bone do you think resorbs then?
The resorption behavior of iliac crest bone is very unpredictable. In addition it resorbs unevenly. Anyway, it erodes the cheekbone on which it is located over the years.
Instead of the iliac crest, I would have opted for lyophilized cartilage. Not only does it not cause bone erosion because it is "sewed" into the soft tissues, it is also less susceptible to resorption. Some of it even calcifies! What a pity that so few surgeons know the power of this material!
The fact that you are asking me, 'what that means specifically' reflects that you might not understand the GENERAL PRINCIPLE I've explained here.
Clarify to me what you don't understand here:
a: The general principle I've explained
b: The fact that there are people who would elect to go to a surgeon OTHER than Sailer
It's looking more like b to me.
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The fact that you are asking me, 'what that means specifically' reflects that you might not understand the GENERAL PRINCIPLE I've explained here.
Clarify to me what you don't understand here:
a: The general principle I've explained
b: The fact that there are people who would elect to go to a surgeon OTHER than Sailer
It's looking more like b to me.
I only said that I prefer lyophilized cartilage to iliac crest bone for the reasons I have stated.
You should not try to read any other motivation into that - but this is entirely up to you.
Naturally, this is not just only my personal opinion but it is scientifically proven. Of course, it could be controversial a bit, but in any case I hope it will stir up some discussion.
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I only said that I prefer lyophilized cartilage to iliac crest bone for the reasons I have stated.
You should not try to read any other motivation into that - but this is entirely up to you.
Naturally, this is just my personal opinion, and it could be controversial a bit, but in any case I hope it will stir up some discussion.
IMO, you are being an insensate opportunist, quite possibly at the emotional expense of this patient (GrendalGong) in an attempt to shake his confidence and call into question whether his doctor did something 'wrong'. I don't have an issue with your liking Sailer. The issue here, as I see it, is you are attempting to undermine the confidence of this patient as to what his doctor did and using that as an opportune time to interject a type of promotion of Sailer.
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IMO, you are being an insensate opportunist, quite possibly at the emotional expense of this patient (GrendalGong) in an attempt to shake his confidence and call into question whether his doctor did something 'wrong'. I don't have an issue with your liking Sailer. The issue here, as I see it, is you are attempting to undermine the confidence of this patient as to what his doctor did and using that as an opportune time to interject a type of promotion of Sailer.
I do not want to promote anyone here. Besides, I never mentioned the name Sailer. I'd just like to discuss whether it might not have been better to use Lyocartilage instead of the iliac crest bone. Myself being an insensate opportunist? There must be room for the truth. But probably I should have been more sensitive.
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I do not want to promote anyone here. Besides, I never mentioned the name Sailer. I'd just like to discuss whether it might not have been better to use Lyocartilage instead of the iliac crest bone. Myself being an insensate opportunist? There must be room for the truth. But probably I should have been more sensitive.
Consider the mods here would know which doctor was being referred to here whether or not you mention the name.
You need to stop using this patient's experience (while he is HEALING) to undermine, challenge, call into question, his doctor's technique or materials, especially so when you are using him as a spring board to interject your preference for what Sailer does. It's not the right time and place to shake his confidence in the surgery he got.
If you want to discuss the pros vs cons of lyocartilage vs ilac crest bone, it is preferable just to start a NEW separate topic on that.
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I really hope that GrendelGegongan's graft stays, I thought other surgeons had said hip grafts don't last in the face.
Edit- Actually this Australian Professor also uses hip grafts for cheekbone augmentation! http://www.ddms.com.au/cosmetic-procedures/autogenous-cheek-augmentation/
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I really hope that GrendelGegongan's graft stays, I thought other surgeons had said hip grafts don't last in the face.
Edit- Actually this Australian Professor also uses hip grafts for cheekbone augmentation! http://www.ddms.com.au/cosmetic-procedures/autogenous-cheek-augmentation/
He should have got an implant placed which is a lot less pain and bone work and it will not resorb after a few years. It is also cheaper.
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No I think it would be great to have your own bone. f**k implants and lypholized cartilege
I think Grendelbro is gonna do really well. I'm rooting for him! But Grendel, make sure to give us a full report. Also try and note any resorption at the 3 month mark.
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Well, the surface of the CUT aspect of the iliac crest bone needs contact with either bone or other material so it does not resorb. You know.. the 'raw' part or part that the knife went through to harvest it can't be left exposed. However, the non 'raw' part eg. the very top of the illiac spine would not tend to resorb.
But how would that look in practice when using it as an onlay? The graft has cuts on three sides with only the top being protected by it's natural form. Shouldn't there still be significant absorption then, since not all sides can be protected from being exposed? (btw. I'm actually just assuming how the graft is harvested here, I don't really know how anybody does it.)
Hm, actually the only method that comes to my mind that could only damage one side of the graft would be if they cut through the highest point of the arch (can't really explain what I mean here 😅)
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But how would that look in practice when using it as an onlay? The graft has cuts on three sides with only the top being protected by it's natural form. Shouldn't there still be significant absorption then, since not all sides can be protected from being exposed? (btw. I'm actually just assuming how the graft is harvested here, I don't really know how anybody does it.)
Hm, actually the only method that comes to my mind that could only damage one side of the graft would be if they cut through the highest point of the arch (can't really explain what I mean here 😅)
Your asking me to explain how something would look based on an assumption on how the bone is harvested????
All that is needed to be understood here is that the cut surface of the bone needs to make contact with another surface whether it be the cut surface of another bone (used as a bone buttress) or another bone butress material sandwiched between a bone cut.
If the bone slice from the iliac crest segment has an INTACT part to it, say the very 'top' part of the crest, that part is Cancellous bone. The cut under surface of it can be used as an onlay. But the intact part of it does not need to be covered with other bone or material.
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Your asking me to explain how something would look based on an assumption on how the bone is harvested????
All that is needed to be understood here is that the cut surface of the bone needs to make contact with another surface whether it be the cut surface of another bone (used as a bone buttress) or another bone butress material sandwiched between a bone cut.
If the bone slice from the iliac crest segment has an INTACT part to it, say the very 'top' part of the crest, that part is Cancellous bone. The cut under surface of it can be used as an onlay. But the intact part of it does not need to be covered with other bone or material.
I understood that. I just wanted to know what you think the theory would look like in practice. How would you cut out a graft from the iliac crest and use it as an onlay with only one "raw" side which can be put on the bone.
If you just cut a piece out, in the easiest way imaginable, you would have three "raw" sides. Since it's an onlay, you can only press one "raw" side on the bone. Two other "raw" sides would be exposed and thus vulnerable to absorption.
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I understood that. I just wanted to know what you think the theory would look like in practice. How would you cut out a graft from the iliac crest and use it as an onlay with only one "raw" side which can be put on the bone.
If you just cut a piece out, in the easiest way imaginable, you would have three "raw" sides. Since it's an onlay, you can only press one "raw" side on the bone. Two other "raw" sides would be exposed and thus vulnerable to absorption.
Oh. OK. If there are 3 'raw' surface sides and one intact surface of a bone cut, one would use a thin slice of cancellous bone to 'patch' 2 of the exposed raw surfaces where as the other exposed surface would be used to make contact with the area below it. That or some other 'sealant' type of material to patch up any exposed surface.
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Oh. OK. If there are 3 'raw' surface sides and one intact surface of a bone cut, one would use a thin slice of cancellous bone to 'patch' 2 of the exposed raw surfaces where as the other exposed surface would be used to make contact with the area below it. That or some other 'sealant' type of material to patch up any exposed surface.
So in your opinion, is hip bone a good material for facial implants? It won't resorb too much?
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So in your opinion, is hip bone a good material for facial implants? It won't resorb too much?
For the most part, it's used as a bone buttress, graft, sandwiched between a bone cut where separating the bone to either elongate, widen or wedge forward leaves a GAP to be FILLED.
As far as materials for face implants go, it's really the SHAPE of them that matters and docs ability to carve the right shape (or have it designed) if the implant is alloplastic (but bio-compatible) material like medpore or firm silicones.
As to hip bone and also cartilage, there would be resorption over time, just like there is in the aging process. I believe they anticipate some over time and for that reason compensate by some over correction.
As to my 'opinion', I'm not sure that even matters given the new phenomena of patients where the ones who would be better served by implants are the ones who want the bone cuts (and bone grafts) instead. Vice versa with the ones who need bone cuts and insist on implants.
So, there is a factor of 'risk aversion' people who are disproportionately averse to the 'risk' of one material over the other as in HYPER focused on the risks of one and HYPO focused on the risks of the other.
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For the most part, it's used as a bone buttress, graft, sandwiched between a bone cut where separating the bone to either elongate, widen or wedge forward leaves a GAP to be FILLED.
As far as materials for face implants go, it's really the SHAPE of them that matters and docs ability to carve the right shape (or have it designed) if the implant is alloplastic (but bio-compatible) material like medpore or firm silicones.
As to hip bone and also cartilage, there would be resorption over time, just like there is in the aging process. I believe they anticipate some over time and for that reason compensate by some over correction.
As to my 'opinion', I'm not sure that even matters given the new phenomena of patients where the ones who would be better served by implants are the ones who want the bone cuts (and bone grafts) instead. Vice versa with the ones who need bone cuts and insist on implants.
So, there is a factor of 'risk aversion' people who are disproportionately averse to the 'risk' of one material over the other as in HYPER focused on the risks of one and HYPO focused on the risks of the other.
nah cuz, implants will gradually look awful as you age. that's a fact. i mean you could have them done, but you'll eventually be looking like a bobble head cause they look really artificial as you lose fat and skin goes to s**t. bone cuts look real brah. Go real or there's no deal.
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You need to stop using this patient's experience (while he is HEALING) to undermine, challenge, call into question, his doctor's technique or materials, especially so when you are using him as a spring board to interject your preference for what Sailer does. It's not the right time and place to shake his confidence in the surgery he got.
Ok, maybe I was a bit too hard and I want to apologize for that too. It was just important to me to prevent his (GrendelGegongans) completely overdrawn commentary from raising false expectations among other users. There is no miracle method to get high cheekbones overnight - everything has certain disadvantages and risks.
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nah cuz, implants will gradually look awful as you age. that's a fact. i mean you could have them done, but you'll eventually be looking like a bobble head cause they look really artificial as you lose fat and skin goes to s**t. bone cuts look real brah. Go real or there's no deal.
Well, the implants aren't going 'age' as in resorb. That's true. But the grafts can resorb over time as to age as does bone and cartilage. Even if they don't or have minimimal resorption, it's STILL a SIMILAR situation when the soft tissue loses mass. Have you never seen a person with very pronounced bone structure kind of look like a gargoyle or very skeletal with aging?
Your argument is implicitly predicated on the assumption that a pronounced bone structure via bone movements to do it (vs. implants) won't be revealing very 'skeletal' look with aging. It will and BOTH will eventually require soft tissue fill to plump out the skeletal look with aging.
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Ok, maybe I was a bit too hard and I want to apologize for that too. It was just important to me to prevent his (GrendelGegongans) completely overdrawn commentary from raising false expectations among other users. There is no miracle method to get high cheekbones overnight - everything has certain disadvantages and risks.
OK. All is good. Thanx for the explanation. It's a very good point given the history of raised expectations PRIOR promoted about this procedure. Not by the doctor himself, but from a self appointed proxy promoter of him. Nonetheless, if this Grendel guy (gal?) already had the surgery, it's best to leave them with hopeful healing thoughts.
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Well, the implants aren't going 'age' as in resorb. That's true. But the grafts can resorb over time as to age as does bone and cartilage. Even if they don't or have minimimal resorption, it's STILL a SIMILAR situation when the soft tissue loses mass. Have you never seen a person with very pronounced bone structure kind of look like a gargoyle or very skeletal with aging?
Your argument is implicitly predicated on the assumption that a pronounced bone structure via bone movements to do it (vs. implants) won't be revealing very 'skeletal' look with aging. It will and BOTH will eventually require soft tissue fill to plump out the skeletal look with aging.
Exactly, that's why Angelina Jolie has fillers or fat. Look at Willem Dafoe, his face has extreme concavity and creases directly beneath the cheekbones but they are the ones he was born with.
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Exactly, that's why Angelina Jolie has fillers or fat. Look at Willem Dafoe, his face has extreme concavity and creases directly beneath the cheekbones but they are the ones he was born with.
Yup.
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Well, the implants aren't going 'age' as in resorb. That's true. But the grafts can resorb over time as to age as does bone and cartilage. Even if they don't or have minimimal resorption, it's STILL a SIMILAR situation when the soft tissue loses mass. Have you never seen a person with very pronounced bone structure kind of look like a gargoyle or very skeletal with aging?
Your argument is implicitly predicated on the assumption that a pronounced bone structure via bone movements to do it (vs. implants) won't be revealing very 'skeletal' look with aging. It will and BOTH will eventually require soft tissue fill to plump out the skeletal look with aging.
Custom jaw implants have a lot more advantages over the chin wing procedure than most of you realize.
You think jaw implants can get infected? The user here who got the Chin Wing also had an infection from the bone graft and had to fight with it.
When it comes to looks there is nothing that comes close to implants, and believe me I have checked all available pictures of chin wings and also most of the implant pictures. I will just leave you this here, d is after the procedure.
(http://www.amsjournal.com/articles/2016/6/2/images/AnnMaxillofacSurg_2016_6_2_287_200325_f1.jpg)
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Custom jaw implants have a lot more advantages over the chin wing procedure than most of you realize.
You think jaw implants can get infected? The user here who got the Chin Wing also had an infection from the bone graft and had to fight with it.
When it comes to looks there is nothing that comes close to implants, and believe me I have checked all available pictures of chin wings and also most of the implant pictures. I will just leave you this here, d is after the procedure.
Why is this post quoting me? I don't see it as a direct response to what I said. Are you sure you didn't mean to quote LAZLO?
Which user got the infection from the chin wing, SJ the one promoting them or someone else who was influenced by him?
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This user: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6797.msg57692#msg57692
I quoted you since you are the most active one to reply to most topics.
Still I see you agree to my point. The chin wing procedure is totally overhyped for some reason.
Here is a before and after picture of a patient who got a chin wing:
(https://i.imgur.com/PR06cxI.jpg)
10 months post OP:
(https://i.imgur.com/8QT1CLr.jpg)
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This user: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6797.msg57692#msg57692
I quoted you since you are the most active one to reply to most topics.
Still I see you agree to my point. The chin wing procedure is totally overhyped for some reason.
The user : user: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6797.msg57692#msg57692
didn't have a chin wing. He had BSSO with Jaw implants overlaid during SAME surgery by one of SJ's (chin wing promoter) mystery meat team of max fax surgeons.
The PHOTO of the woman is totally different person than the user you linked to.
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The user : user: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6797.msg57692#msg57692
didn't have a chin wing. He had BSSO with Jaw implants overlaid during SAME surgery by one of SJ's (chin wing promoter) mystery meat team of max fax surgeons.
The PHOTO of the woman is totally different person than the user you linked to.
he even says he had a chinwing in the first post and an infection after it,
and I never said that the picture is from him.
It is just an actual picture of a patient who got chin wing and looks terrible.
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he even says he had a chinwing in the first post and an infection after it,
and I never said that the picture is from him.
It is just an actual picture of a patient who got chin wing and looks terrible.
The poster who said he had a chinwing in the FIRST post of that thread is NOT the poster you linked to. The poster you linked to had BSSO with jaw implant over FRESH WOUND of bsso and got infection. Get on the ball.
The reason I noted the chin wing photo of the gal was not the same person was because I was not too sure you knew what was what and who was who.
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This user: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6797.msg57692#msg57692
I quoted you since you are the most active one to reply to most topics.
Still I see you agree to my point. The chin wing procedure is totally overhyped for some reason.
Here is a before and after picture of a patient who got a chin wing:
(https://i.imgur.com/PR06cxI.jpg)
10 months post OP:
(https://i.imgur.com/8QT1CLr.jpg)
What's the backstory to that picture tho?
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that's a f**king s**t result. looks so goddamn asymmetric. she was a bit wonky before, but after she's f**ked.
dock 10 points from chin wing.
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that's a f**king s**t result. looks so goddamn asymmetric. she was a bit wonky before, but after she's f**ked.
dock 10 points from chin wing.
Oh, but she didn't get the 2ncd chin wing or 'jank' it with BODY FILLER to make it look better as per the recommendations. lol
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Custom jaw implants have a lot more advantages over the chin wing procedure than most of you realize.
You think jaw implants can get infected? The user here who got the Chin Wing also had an infection from the bone graft and had to fight with it.
When it comes to looks there is nothing that comes close to implants, and believe me I have checked all available pictures of chin wings and also most of the implant pictures. I will just leave you this here, d is after the procedure.
I legit don't know, but could the chin wing bone get infected at a later date? If not, then that's why they're superior to implants.
Kavan - Ok so we'll get bonier faces with age regardless of whether we got implants or boney augmentation when we were younger, true. But wouldn't boney augmentation age more naturally with the rest of the face, whereas an implant would create more disproportionately pronounced visual disharmony, the bonier our faces get? In theory then, you could get boney augmentation as an aesthetic compromise in exchange for not needing to redo that area in a few decades, should you choose to age naturally forever after that point and not bother anymore with aesthetic surgery. So then boney augmentation basically lets you say 'screw it' to keeping up your looks after whatever age of your choosing, whereas an implant will look more unsettling over time to the point where you're much more likely to have to do surgery on the area again when you're older, because it now looks unnatural.
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I legit don't know, but could the chin wing bone get infected at a later date? If not, then that's why they're superior to implants.
Kavan - Ok so we'll get bonier faces with age regardless of whether we got implants or boney augmentation when we were younger, true. But wouldn't boney augmentation age more naturally with the rest of the face, whereas an implant would create more disproportionately pronounced visual disharmony, the bonier our faces get? In theory then, you could get boney augmentation as an aesthetic compromise in exchange for not needing to redo that area in a few decades, should you choose to age naturally forever after that point and not bother anymore with aesthetic surgery. So then boney augmentation basically lets you say 'screw it' to keeping up your looks after whatever age of your choosing, whereas an implant will look more unsettling over time to the point where you're much more likely to have to do surgery on the area again when you're older, because it now looks unnatural.
Well people with the very prominent bone structure, whether it's from implants or bone cuts or just natural, are the ones that get the really bony looking faces with aging. The type of implant that can really look unsettling over time is a nose implant because the skin is really thin there and gets thinner. Chin and jaw and cheek still have some muscle mass to hide the outlines of them. But still prominent bone structures are going to be MORE prominent as BONY with aging no matter how they get there.
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Oh, but she didn't get the 2ncd chin wing or 'jank' it with BODY FILLER to make it look better as per the recommendations. lol
No body here help me with plans to jank my face! You all just homo and make me more homo! You like that I be homo!
Why am I so homo!!!???
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I thought Dr Z was against implants but he is now using onlays to do what the ZSO can not?
I would be interested in iliac crest grafts if the resorption rate isn't too bad or at least similar to cartilage, but yeah I would imagine that it's hard to carve a precise shape from bone.
I like the idea of using your own bone for cheek implants.
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I thought Dr Z was against implants but he is now using onlays to do what the ZSO can not?
I would be interested in iliac crest grafts if the resorption rate isn't too bad or at least similar to cartilage, but yeah I would imagine that it's hard to carve a precise shape from bone.
I like the idea of using your own bone for cheek implants.
What do you mean Dr. Z is using onlays???? Onlays made of what?
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Thank you Kavan
and thanks for your apology Lestat, came off as a bit accusatory but I agree that one should always be critical if something doesn't sound right
I have a question about something minor that's bugging me. When I press my cheekbones ever so lightly I can hear this tiny crackling sound. It's not painful or anything but it's obviously not a sound you want to hear when touching your newly operated upon bone.
Anyone got a clue what might be causing it?
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Thank you Kavan
and thanks for your apology Lestat, came off as a bit accusatory but I agree that one should always be critical if something doesn't sound right
I have a question about something minor that's bugging me. When I press my cheekbones ever so lightly I can hear this tiny crackling sound. It's not painful or anything but it's obviously not a sound you want to hear when touching your newly operated upon bone.
Anyone got a clue what might be causing it?
Bone parts used as grafts have not all fused together, integrated yet.
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I have a question about something minor that's bugging me. When I press my cheekbones ever so lightly I can hear this tiny crackling sound. It's not painful or anything but it's obviously not a sound you want to hear when touching your newly operated upon bone.
Update please.