jawsurgeryforums.com

General Category => General Chat => Topic started by: GJ on September 08, 2017, 01:06:03 PM

Title: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: GJ on September 08, 2017, 01:06:03 PM
I've received some questions on the forum and via pm lately about bans.

First off, the easy explanation on bans: I have more information than users, and I have the responsibility of running a site.

More nuanced discussion of the issue: in the early years of this forum, we'd have very normal people dropping by daily and sharing their results. That was great, because it lead to information (the surgeon, a verifiable result, etc), and healthy discussion. View a thread from 2012 vs one from 2017 and it's night and day. We don't get those healthy people anymore, and I think it's because of the influx of psychos from the usual channels. It's especially true with females: I haven't seen a female reveal results here in like 3 years. They're probably terrified to get ripped apart.

And people ask why I ban Lestat. Well, it was the possible SJ association, but he was creepy, and people like that create a negative atmosphere that scares others off. The atmosphere here has turned too negative, and it was because I used to have a no-ban policy, which lead to a large influx of toxic personalities.

Now our "reveals" are all pre-surgical and young boys/men who have class 1 bites and jaws and yet still want jaw surgery (and head transplants). They also want all the answers about their case via posting a photo. We used to get pre-surgerial people with severe jaw issues who had cephs to share. You guys should ask yourselves why this is. I know why it is. It's the negative atmosphere. Many of the people I "ban for no reason" contribute to that. So our definition of "no reason" is different. I want a welcoming atmosphere where people feel safe sharing their results.

When I/we see normal people sharing their results again and all the knowledgeable people still sticking around and helping, then I'll know the forum is back to being good. Right now it's meh because of too many lookism types who are still involved. So, they might disappear "for no reason" as we go along.

I encourage normal people reading this to join the forum and share your story, and if people harass you just write me. I encourage the lookism types who I have let hang around to act that way over there and refrain from it here -- get all your rage out somewhere else. Then come here and discuss surgery and respect the other members. That's the gist of it, and hope it explains my thinking so I don't have to keep answering PMs about this. The short of it is I want a positive and highly informative/intellectual environment so people can make decisions, and anything in the way of that must go.

Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 08, 2017, 03:03:49 PM
Wow! Great explanation.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: needadvancement on September 08, 2017, 03:28:04 PM
Precisely why I haven't browsed this forum much this year. This new policy is good to hear, now I feel like coming back.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Bobbit on September 08, 2017, 05:15:17 PM
Well said.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Lazlo on September 08, 2017, 10:28:10 PM
What if there's a serial killer on this forum who's hunting down jaw surgery patients?
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: tdawg on September 13, 2017, 08:34:56 AM
As somebody who used to be more active(and underwent double jaw surgery a month ago for a pretty serious openbite deformity) I have to agree with most of this. Im hesitant to post anything, let alone pictures because I dont want anything to end up on puahate or whatever the popular forum is these days for those types, until the end of the internet. I remembered I actually reversed image searched a pic I saw on here because I remember seeing it on a blog and I wanted to find the blog and I found a whole discussion on one of those forums. I do not want to be the subject of one of those discussions. The other aspect is that I dont begrudge anybody for the decisions they make relating to what they do to their bodies but I do feel like forums like this and the oral surgery section of archwired should be for people with actual jaw deformities not people who are trying to become models. When the discussion is all centered around people that have no clinical skeletal deformity I dont even know how to contribute so I dont. That all being said I dont know if banning those people will really make a difference as they can still view the forum and save whatever pictures that get posted.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Bowie on September 13, 2017, 09:07:20 AM
As somebody who used to be more active(and underwent double jaw surgery a month ago for a pretty serious openbite deformity) I have to agree with most of this. Im hesitant to post anything, let alone pictures because I dont want anything to end up on puahate or whatever the popular forum is these days for those types, until the end of the internet. I remembered I actually reversed image searched a pic I saw on here because I remember seeing it on a blog and I wanted to find the blog and I found a whole discussion on one of those forums. I do not want to be the subject of one of those discussions. The other aspect is that I dont begrudge anybody for the decisions they make relating to what they do to their bodies but I do feel like forums like this and the oral surgery section of archwired should be for people with actual jaw deformities not people who are trying to become models. When the discussion is all centered around people that have no clinical skeletal deformity I dont even know how to contribute so I dont. That all being said I dont know if banning those people will really make a difference as they can still view the forum and save whatever pictures that get posted.
Completely agree, everyone is terrified to post any pictures exactly because of this and what can we do?
I do think, however, that it's a good thing other procedures are discussed on here. When someone has recessed jaws usually other parts of the face will be recessed so discussing holistic solutions is good IMO.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Milli_Meters on September 13, 2017, 09:30:24 AM
Completely agree, everyone is terrified to post any pictures exactly because of this and what can we do?
I do think, however, that it's a good thing other procedures are discussed on here. When someone has recessed jaws usually other parts of the face will be recessed so discussing holistic solutions is good IMO.

Ya form and function are related also.  Nothing wrong with discussing cosmetic aspect of surgery , after all there is a section called "aesthetics".Most active section too. As long as the discussion is relevant and civil.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Bowie on September 13, 2017, 09:53:07 AM
I would support GJ in taking an even more hardline approach to these "deplorables", the adjective is actually justified here.
I mean we have a member here called "boyo" FFS we know that term was widely used on lookism.

In 2012 / 13, when I was searching for the guy who turned out to be my surgeon, it lead me to some puahate threads and I can tell you the user "extractionsruinsfaces" is also from there. Don't tolerate them GJ even if they are acting civil, we all know that a sick ideology has been burnt into their minds.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Milli_Meters on September 13, 2017, 10:02:22 AM
Well , I do not think its fair to judge everyone on lookism.net as the same.

I just interacted with Boyo. He seems like a helpful chap and his posts here are relevant. Maybe he assumed the name in a subversive/sarcastic way?

Without encroaching on privacy , extractionsruinsfaces is going through some very harsh stuff in his life. Again , his posts here are relevant.

Lookism is a symptom of the human condition not some independent evil. While I totally get why GJ is circumspect of the overlap between the 2 forums , I do not think there should a blanket prejudice against lookism posters here.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Bowie on September 13, 2017, 10:09:31 AM
Well , I do not think its fair to judge everyone on lookism.net as the same.

I just interacted with Boyo. He seems like a helpful chap and his posts here are relevant. Maybe he assumed the name in a subversive/sarcastic way?

Without encroaching on privacy , extractionsruinsfaces is going through some very harsh stuff in his life. Again , his posts here are relevant.

Lookism is a symptom of the human condition not some independent evil. While I totally get why GJ is circumspect of the overlap between the 2 forums , I do not think there should a blanket prejudice against lookism posters here.
Oh I know extractionsruinsfaces is going through awful circumstances, I gave him some very good advice as my father suffers from the same illness but he didn't thank or even acknowledge me for that. Boyo has acted like a decent chap but you know most people are intelligent enough to act in accordance to their surroundings.

I am usually very open minded but sorry that site should be shut down and we can't trust anyone who comes from there IMO
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: GJ on September 13, 2017, 10:28:45 AM
As somebody who used to be more active(and underwent double jaw surgery a month ago for a pretty serious openbite deformity) I have to agree with most of this. Im hesitant to post anything, let alone pictures because I dont want anything to end up on puahate or whatever the popular forum is these days for those types, until the end of the internet. I remembered I actually reversed image searched a pic I saw on here because I remember seeing it on a blog and I wanted to find the blog and I found a whole discussion on one of those forums. I do not want to be the subject of one of those discussions. The other aspect is that I dont begrudge anybody for the decisions they make relating to what they do to their bodies but I do feel like forums like this and the oral surgery section of archwired should be for people with actual jaw deformities not people who are trying to become models. When the discussion is all centered around people that have no clinical skeletal deformity I dont even know how to contribute so I dont. That all being said I dont know if banning those people will really make a difference as they can still view the forum and save whatever pictures that get posted.

This is why the private forum was created. Only the most trusted people get access.
Another option is to close the public forum from view unless you have an approved login (I now view every registration attempt, whereas in the past I left that up to the user). That might slow down traffic a lot, but guests wouldn't be able to read it.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Lestat on September 13, 2017, 10:37:28 AM
Private forum??
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Milli_Meters on September 13, 2017, 10:39:03 AM
Yes there is a private forum , where the magic happens.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: Bowie on September 13, 2017, 10:39:54 AM
Private forum??
Not for the likes of you and me
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 13, 2017, 12:39:52 PM
Well , I do not think its fair to judge everyone on lookism.net as the same.

I just interacted with Boyo. He seems like a helpful chap and his posts here are relevant. Maybe he assumed the name in a subversive/sarcastic way?

Without encroaching on privacy , extractionsruinsfaces is going through some very harsh stuff in his life. Again , his posts here are relevant.

Lookism is a symptom of the human condition not some independent evil. While I totally get why GJ is circumspect of the overlap between the 2 forums , I do not think there should a blanket prejudice against lookism posters here.


In terms of statistical correlation of members from other boards who kick up the most trouble, lookism has the highest risk profile. The best way not to have a blanket policy against all lookism members and to weed out the ones that wish to hide they are lookism members would be to entertain the ones who DON'T wish to hide they are that.


How about a litmus test where lookism members wanting entry to JSF were requested to  tell the mod their screen name there and either use same here or have a good reason to use a different one?



" Dear Applicant for JSF entry,

If you have a screen name that you have established elsewhere, you are requested to use same here.

If there is a reason you would like to use a different one than established elsewhere, please disclose the screen name you use elsewhere and why you wish to use a different one here.

If you are an active member of lookism, entry to JSF is contingent on either
using the same screen name you use there or disclosing it to the mod and with explanation as to why you want a different screen name here."

Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 13, 2017, 12:46:14 PM
Oh I know extractionsruinsfaces is going through awful circumstances, I gave him some very good advice as my father suffers from the same illness but he didn't thank or even acknowledge me for that. Boyo has acted like a decent chap but you know most people are intelligent enough to act in accordance to their surroundings.

I am usually very open minded but sorry that site should be shut down and we can't trust anyone who comes from there IMO

I don't think it should be shut down. I think it should remain there as a leper colony.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: needadvancement on September 14, 2017, 11:42:36 AM
To those of you wanting to post pictures but are worried, just block out your eyes(and possibly other parts of your face if we're just gonna zero in on your jaws anyway) you can do that with the most basic software that every computer has like ms paint. I don't know why someone would post uncensored photos of his face online especially on websites like this.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: girl on September 15, 2017, 12:32:29 PM
I can’t help thinking that the doctors themselves are partially responsible for contributing to this collective disease of thought. A lot has changed since 2012 because surgeons, too, are being influenced by Lookism - they have even been known to attract patients from there, as we all now know. There is something wrong when the measurements given for my recessed class II case are far less than those given to a young person who looks like they've just come off the runway, but this is now a reality. The legitimate cases are being half-arsed and poorly conceived as jaw surgeons now concentrate on tweaking rather than coming up with the best aesthetic (and functional) solutions to real problems.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 15, 2017, 02:05:03 PM
IDK, I think the question about lookism is WHY can't they just stay there as to not 'import' the mentality elsewhere. You know, let 'Lord of the Flies' on there stay there with his little maggots.

Not sure and GJ can correct me if I'm wrong but I think he prefers people who are interested in balancing out thier jaws, those with jaw imbalances and add other bone alterations. Maybe more people who have cephs to show and those who can do a basic ceph reading. What he's getting is an influx of people with good jaw balance wanting to 'looksmax' so they can look more like a model or people whining that they are 'ugly' because they don't look like a model. Where do you think THAT mentality comes from?

I think he's just wanting a better population that has flown in here following the path of SJ and I think he needs more people supportive of what he's doing (or trying to undo like having his board used as a 'name drop' landing strip for SJ's doctors.)

Ultimately, that's what the bans are about.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: girl on September 15, 2017, 03:43:44 PM
I'm dying to post my cephs and questions as I received some plans, but I'm put off posting them anywhere public due to the aforementioned reasons (stealing pics). I'm sure many would post if, at a minimum, they could be assured that their stuff wouldn't get transported to the other forum.

I think they just import that mentality as for them it's intrinsically related to everything else. Some prob don't realise they're doing it.   
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 15, 2017, 04:04:40 PM
Cephs are fairly 'anon' as most people don't associate them with your face and of course, they narrow down the advice to jaw balance. They also 'up' the level of discussion because they prompt people who make suggestions to make them with reference to the angles and planes applicable to max fax displacements.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: GJ on September 15, 2017, 05:09:29 PM
IDK, I think the question about lookism is WHY can't they just stay there as to not 'import' the mentality elsewhere. You know, let 'Lord of the Flies' on there stay there with his little maggots.

Not sure and GJ can correct me if I'm wrong but I think he prefers people who are interested in balancing out thier jaws, those with jaw imbalances and add other bone alterations. Maybe more people who have cephs to show and those who can do a basic ceph reading. What he's getting is an influx of people with good jaw balance wanting to 'looksmax' so they can look more like a model or people whining that they are 'ugly' because they don't look like a model. Where do you think THAT mentality comes from?

I think he's just wanting a better population that has flown in here following the path of SJ and I think he needs more people supportive of what he's doing (or trying to undo like having his board used as a 'name drop' landing strip for SJ's doctors.)

Ultimately, that's what the bans are about.

Well said.
It's partially my fault because I slacked off on keeping tabs on what was going on, and then I also had open/user-validated (via email) registration. The idea was that the place would self-police so I wouldn't have to be involved. A few bad personalities ruined that experiment.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 16, 2017, 07:50:33 PM
Well said.
It's partially my fault because I slacked off on keeping tabs on what was going on, and then I also had open/user-validated (via email) registration. The idea was that the place would self-police so I wouldn't have to be involved. A few bad personalities ruined that experiment.

Not really your fault. But open sign up fly in gives more sign ups but they could be multis or just coming from the wrong places and then you got a bunch of flies that have been eating s**t somewhere. Think, SCREEN.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: GJ on September 20, 2017, 01:28:47 PM
Wanted to run this by people for feedback, but I'm considering requiring a one-time $20 Bitcoin donation for all new registered accounts from certain Countries (UK, Australia, Denmark, Germany, and Italy are the main culprits of dupe accounts from banned members).

Reason being if the user has invested in their account, they are much more likely to behave on the forum. The problem right now is that users are being banned for legit reasons, then creating new accounts once banned. Some use a proxy to do this. Given I have a background in IT, I can spot them easily and just re-ban them. But it's annoying, and I can't always be 100% sure I'm not banning a legit new user. I think if people have a vested interest in keeping their account in good standing they will then police themselves so I don't have to it.

Does the forum offer enough value to do this? That's the question.
We have some of the most knowledgeable patients in the world, so I think so. An exception could be made to the rule that if a user here in good standing vouches for you, you get a free account. I'm not looking to gouge people but rather find a solution and create incentive for civil behavior.

Thoughts?

I'm open to other suggestions. I tried the "Libertarian" model of a free market/anything goes/no censorship for several years, and people abused it. It didn't work. People can't police themselves, and a small few wound up destroying a good thing for the larger whole.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 20, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
I would say there is value and more value to a board when a mod takes action to cut down on people taking out multi accounts when the ethical standard is just one. The value is to those using one screen name. The modest request is basically 'nothing' when you consider that many are up to spending lots of $$ on surgery. If they don't appreciate that the request is being made for the greater good, then they are stupid.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: tdawg on September 20, 2017, 03:15:31 PM
Honestly I(and I think a lot of others) probably would have been like "screw this" if we had to pay for an account. I would have made that determination before I did any mental cost/benefit analysis. I think the forum is worth it but I think most people naturally pass when asked to pay for things that they expect to be free.

A possible alternative is maybe to make a volunteer with an IT background(or at least an understanding to spot what you are talking about) who can spot that type of thing a mod who can ban those users, to ease the workload on you. I am sure somebody will be able and willing.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 20, 2017, 03:34:55 PM
Honestly I(and I think a lot of others) probably would have been like "screw this" if we had to pay for an account. I would have made that determination before I did any mental cost/benefit analysis. I think the forum is worth it but I think most people naturally pass when asked to pay for things that they expect to be free.

A possible alternative is maybe to make a volunteer with an IT background(or at least an understanding to spot what you are talking about) who can spot that type of thing a mod who can ban those users, to ease the workload on you. I am sure somebody will be able and willing.

Good idea but it would depend on if the software here allows a mod who is NON-admin to check IPs and do bans. I'm not sure it does.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: GJ on September 20, 2017, 03:47:31 PM
Good idea but it would depend on if the software here allows a mod who is NON-admin to check IPs and do bans. I'm not sure it does.

Not by default, but I can make it show IPs, etc. I gave you those permissions, Kavan.

Tdawg, et al...what about this: all accounts remain free, but if you're banned, you have to email me, state your username, and then make a donation in order to remove the ban? This gives the incentive to behave yet no costs upfront.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 20, 2017, 04:42:38 PM
Not by default, but I can make it show IPs, etc. I gave you those permissions, Kavan.

Tdawg, et al...what about this: all accounts remain free, but if you're banned, you have to email me, state your username, and then make a donation in order to remove the ban? This gives the incentive to behave yet no costs upfront.

OK, I can see the ips now.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: tdawg on September 21, 2017, 01:47:13 AM
Not by default, but I can make it show IPs, etc. I gave you those permissions, Kavan.

Tdawg, et al...what about this: all accounts remain free, but if you're banned, you have to email me, state your username, and then make a donation in order to remove the ban? This gives the incentive to behave yet no costs upfront.

Thats a great idea I think.
Title: Re: Questions Regarding Bans
Post by: kavan on September 21, 2017, 09:11:53 AM


Tdawg, et al...what about this: all accounts remain free, but if you're banned, you have to email me, state your username, and then make a donation in order to remove the ban? This gives the incentive to behave yet no costs upfront.

No. Stastistically speaking, people who are banned will just be signing on again without telling you they were banned prior. There's more incentive to do that than to disclose a prior ban and offer funds to lift it.

Being fine with a modest donation prior to entry demonstrates some support as to why you are doing that on the part of the person wanting to enter the venue. Although it cuts down the number of sign ups, it cuts down on the amount of babysitting the board you have to do too; cuts down on the work load.

If they are in already with some kind of acceptable track record, there should be no worries about a change of policy applicable to new entries.

Just make clear in the policy that those who were banned prior need to disclose past screen name even to be considered for re-entry with contribution. Basically, you want it modest enough so it's easy for you to DECLINE. It should be an affirmation that the person supports what you are doing.