jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: fulcanelli on January 06, 2018, 01:31:21 PM
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Does anyone know anything about this or had it done? Results seem pretty impressive to correct minor- ish bite and jaw flaws without braces and invasive surgery. I had a genioplasty about 12 years ago now and got a great result but my chin still looks s little short because I have an overbite. If this was fixed there would be more length in my jaw and chin and it would look much better. No way I am getting braces and surgery now , I am 37 with kids and a job but I’d consider this if it’s legit.
Here’s a link: https://www.faceliftdentistry.com/overbite/correcting-overbite-without-surgery.html
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Does anyone know anything about this or had it done? Results seem pretty impressive to correct minor- ish bite and jaw flaws without braces and invasive surgery. I had a genioplasty about 12 years ago now and got a great result but my chin still looks s little short because I have an overbite. If this was fixed there would be more length in my jaw and chin and it would look much better. No way I am getting braces and surgery now , I am 37 with kids and a job but I’d consider this if it’s legit.
Here’s a link: https://www.faceliftdentistry.com/overbite/correcting-overbite-without-surgery.html
I think a lot of it is a matter of bulking up the teeth and/ or elongating them (back molars) to give more support to the face which can be a lot of caps/crowns and veneers. Could run close to 70 grand.
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70G? Wow that’s a lot. If it can be done more cheaply I’d seriously consider it.
If I move my lower jaw forward so that my bottom teeth meet my top teeth perfectly every thing looks great. At the time I was getting my genioplasty done the surgeon tried to convince the orthodontist to help so that I could have braces and eventually a bsso but she wouldn’t do it because she said it wasn’t that bad an overbite (it was NHS). So we just did the genioplasty and 12 years later it looks great just that my chin looks a little short when my jaws are shut. I’ve got a load of veneers that I got when I was young and stupid and they need to be replaced sooner rather than later anyway. I’ll look into other surgeons that do this in Europe and if I find it cheaper I’ll post more info here.
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70G? Wow that’s a lot. If it can be done more cheaply I’d seriously consider it.
If I move my lower jaw forward so that my bottom teeth meet my top teeth perfectly every thing looks great. At the time I was getting my genioplasty done the surgeon tried to convince the orthodontist to help so that I could have braces and eventually a bsso but she wouldn’t do it because she said it wasn’t that bad an overbite (it was NHS). So we just did the genioplasty and 12 years later it looks great just that my chin looks a little short when my jaws are shut. I’ve got a load of veneers that I got when I was young and stupid and they need to be replaced sooner rather than later anyway. I’ll look into other surgeons that do this in Europe and if I find it cheaper I’ll post more info here.
To the best of my knowledge, they ELONGATE the back molars so they can touch (or almost touch) when you put your jaw forward so you don't have an 'open bite' when doing that. They also bulk 'em out sideways to fill out the face. That's just the upper and lower molars which they would need to do with CAPS. They probably also want to do overlays/veneers to the the rest of the teeth too. Just that sort of thing is uber expen$$IVE and then they guy is going to want MORE over that because he calls a 'face lift'. No doubt he can do what he shows on there but he's appealing to LA patients with money burning hole in pocket. It would be possible for other dentists to do similar BUT this dentist trademarked the name; 'Face lift dentistry' and for that reason, other dentists who could do at a lower rate can't use the word 'face lift'.
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I'm the same, Fulcanelli, if I move my lower jaw forward so my front teeth meet my TMJ feels more comfortable and my profile improves. Is there a way of achieving this with orthodontics and crowns. Or is surgery or 70k for 'Venlays' the only option?
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I'm the same, Fulcanelli, if I move my lower jaw forward so my front teeth meet my TMJ feels more comfortable and my profile improves. Is there a way of achieving this with orthodontics and crowns. Or is surgery or 70k for 'Venlays' the only option?
I believe, that's part of what this dentist is doing; using orthodonture and crowns to do what you are doing when you advance jaw.
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London cosmetic dentistry supposedly do venlays but no idea how much it costs or what their results are like. There’s probably dentists who can achieve a similar result for cheaper but I’d want to see a lot of before and afters and testimonials before paying anything. A lot of people from the U.K. went over to Poland in the 2000’s for veneers. I don’t know how they’re holding up now. That’s another point. If you don’t have veneers already do you really want them? I think they use them on the front teeth so that top and bottom line up once the bite is corrected. I have them already snd they need replacing anyway so that’s why I am thinking about this. I wouldn’t recommend them to someone who doesn’t have them, especially if their teeth are good.
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Found this while searching around the web. A lot of info around the procedure that seems to be missing elsewhere. Also interesting that they claim that they don’t use traditional veneers and don’t require to grind down the tooth surface to fit the venlays.
Link here http://www.google.com/patents/US20150157423
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'Venlay' is a TRADEMARK name (his trademark). So, if he's building up the teeth, either making them longer for increased face height or making them 'fatter' for width support, there is actually no need to grind down the teeth. He would have to etch the surface though to glue them on.
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I think they claim not to damage the existing tooth at all so that would rule out etching the surface before adhering the venlay. The details are pretty hazy how Venlays differ from regular veneers. Also I’d be surprised if he got a patent reading that submission. Looking back at the site, he achieved great results in regards to changing the jaw/face of his patients but their actual teeth look really fake and unnatural. My veneers look way better I have to say.
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I think they claim not to damage the existing tooth at all so that would rule out etching the surface before adhering the venlay. The details are pretty hazy how Venlays differ from regular veneers. Also I’d be surprised if he got a patent reading that submission. Looking back at the site, he achieved great results in regards to changing the jaw/face of his patients but their actual teeth look really fake and unnatural. My veneers look way better I have to say.
Surface has to be etched to accept a veneer; onlay. When reading his patent, as I recall, that was part of the process. One of the problems with the US patent office is they really don't go through the patents to notice that people are often patenting a type of process that's actually in the public venue as in methods commonly used. So, many applicants kind of get away with patenting a method that's already in common use such as the way he prepares the teeth before he puts something over them as in cleaning, germ killing and etching. Now the reason his teeth look fake as you note relates to what I said prior which is what he is doing is building them to be thicker and longer. So this 'venlay' (trademark term) will resolve to a THICK overlay in which translucency will be lost which I think explains why you've noticed these very thick overlays; 'Venlays' don't look as natural (translucent) as veneers which are usually thinner.
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Been thinking about this some more as alternative to bsso to bring lower jaw forward and fix overbite. But if jaws are open . Ie when resting or talking will the lower jaw fall back into recessed position because at that moment the back teeth won’t be touching to hold everything up?
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Been thinking about this some more as alternative to bsso to bring lower jaw forward and fix overbite. But if jaws are open . Ie when resting or talking will the lower jaw fall back into recessed position because at that moment the back teeth won’t be touching to hold everything up?
I would imagine if you've been camouflaging the retrusive position by holding the jaw forward when talking anyway, you would still be able to do that.
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I’ve emailed them with this question. If you need to consciously hold the jaw forward when the teeth are not meeting that’s not ideal. Interestingly they now say on the website that there will be a course to train other dentists in the procedure.
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I’ve emailed them with this question. If you need to consciously hold the jaw forward when the teeth are not meeting that’s not ideal. Interestingly they now say on the website that there will be a course to train other dentists in the procedure.
What I'm saying is that IF one consciously holds their jaw forward where the teeth are NOT meeting and that looks good to them, getting the teeth elongated so they have that position when the teeth ARE meeting is basically what this process does.
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I get that. My point is that if you get this done how would the lower jaw look when resting, talking when the upper and lower teeth are not meeting? They kinda imply that the jaw realignment is permanent but I don’t see it can be if the teeth aren’t closed to support everything. Maybe the muscles readjust to this new position? Seems a bit unlikely though.
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I get that. My point is that if you get this done how would the lower jaw look when resting, talking when the upper and lower teeth are not meeting? They kinda imply that the jaw realignment is permanent but I don’t see it can be if the teeth aren’t closed to support everything. Maybe the muscles readjust to this new position? Seems a bit unlikely though.
Same way it would look if you didn't get the teeth elongated.
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Yeh that’s what I think too. So it’s not really an alternative to jaw surgery as claimed. Well maybe if you want to walk around with your mouth shut all the time..
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Yeh that’s what I think too. So it’s not really an alternative to jaw surgery as claimed. Well maybe if you want to walk around with your mouth shut all the time..
Ya. That's basically it.
Let's say, someone has a deep bite and a retrusive mandible and they learn to hide that by dropping their jaw down and out at rest where they get the FRONT lower teeth to meet the FRONT upper teeth where they should be. If they look to see what's going on when they do that, they will find that it basically yields a massive posterior OPEN BITE. So, solution would be to ELONGATE the MOLARS so the person doesn't go back into the deep bite when chewing or when getting their back molars to meet in repose. Voila! That's part of the guy's 'secret' as to 'correcting the bite' so the person looks better WHEN they are occluding with their back molars.
His closed mouth before photos show people occluding the back molars and their lower '1/3rds' looking kind of 'short' and or retrusive due to that. So when the back molars are ELONGATED, the closed mouth position no longer yields the retrusive or short look.
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They have responded:
“As far as the jaw goes, everyone is different and we know nothing about you or your structures, bite, jaw position or jaw sizes. Most of the time your jaw is not "brought forward" because it usually does this naturally. Right now if you have an overbite, you jaw is forced backwards.”
I am sceptical on the overbite forces the jaw backwards point. Thoughts on this?
But it got me thinking maybe my lower jaw is short due to posterior open bite and front over bite but not actually recessed. How can I check? I’ve tried jutting lower jaw forward and also letting it hang down trying not to let it come forward and there isn’t that much difference, both are an improvement. Probably not an accurate indicator I know.
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They have responded:
“As far as the jaw goes, everyone is different and we know nothing about you or your structures, bite, jaw position or jaw sizes. Most of the time your jaw is not "brought forward" because it usually does this naturally. Right now if you have an overbite, you jaw is forced backwards.”
I am sceptical on the overbite forces the jaw backwards point. Thoughts on this?
But it got me thinking maybe my lower jaw is short due to posterior open bite and front over bite but not actually recessed. How can I check? I’ve tried jutting lower jaw forward and also letting it hang down trying not to let it come forward and there isn’t that much difference, both are an improvement. Probably not an accurate indicator I know.
Your jaw is brought backwards with an overbite. That is true.
But the jaw can easily be brought forwards with concious effort to mask it's backwards orientation from the overbite. So what they can do is elongate the back molars so they touch in the position where one is bringing their jaw forwards to mask the retrusion the overbite gives them.
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I saw this guy when I was in CA to see Arnett in 2016. I was sceptical too but thought I may as well see him whilst I was doing the rounds of a few CA surgeons.
I can't remember exactly, without digging out the paperwork, but I think the cost was around 100k US. So irrespective of anything else, that was me out!
I didn't come out with a better understanding of the process than anything that has been posted here - all I even remember was just that he emphasised that they do not grind down teeth like with veneers. Other than that I am still in the dark as to what the hell he does. I very much got the impression that everything he was saying was just regurgitation of sales patter he says to every patient. He was friendly and warm, I just didn't feel comfortable with any of it, considering this was my entire mouth of teeth and a cost that was astronomical. Plus, the teeth in his after photos do look pretty fake and plasticky. It would look ridiculous on my face.
Even if you ignore the above and could afford it, I think there is a limitation as to what it can achieve and who it can help anyway. Just imagine spending this amount of money and then realising after that it hasn't really been a substitute for jaw surgery. I think the truth is there is no real alternative to jaw surgery. If you need it you need it. You can of course choose not to have it and live with your face, thereby avoiding the risks that surgery entails. But IMO you aren't ever going to be satisfied with masking procedures if you have true boney issues and imbalances.
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100k is insane I can’t believe anyone would pay that. I have a suspicion they’re vague about their methods because essentially it’s build up the back teeth and stick veneers on the front. Obviously it takes a good dr to get the bite in the right place and look good but I can’t see why it costs that much.
I think you’re right it can never replace surgery if you really need it but for borderline cases or people who want to improve aesthetics I can see the benefit over years in braces, surgery and even then a unpredictable outcome. If it was cheaper and other dentists start offering similar services without the facelift schtick I’d probably do it.
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I also was interested once.
Asked the price per email, they said about 70k.
Then i saw a video testimonial. The women was happy, but i did not like the result too much when she was talking. Really very bulky teeth and she seemed to have a bit trouble talking. (the pictures looked better to me than actual video)
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What I'm saying is that IF one consciously holds their jaw forward where the teeth are NOT meeting and that looks good to them, getting the teeth elongated so they have that position when the teeth ARE meeting is basically what this process does.
That would pretty much destroy the condyle and cause all kinds of other problems.
Don't do this, OP. It's snake oil.
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That would pretty much destroy the condyle and cause all kinds of other problems.
Don't do this, OP. It's snake oil.
Tbh I have been kinda thinking about it. Not the facelift dentistry but getting the back teeth built up with crowns. I have an open bite back there and they’re really worn down compared to my other teeth and I am not that old (38).
Are you able to elaborate on the problems this can cause to the condyle?
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its a total scam, will leave you disfigured. end of story.
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I don’t want to flog a dead horse with this but I recently had a check up at the dentist and he said my back teeth were seriously worn down. He recommended I get s bite guard to stop grinding in my sleep.
But that won’t fix my teeth. This combined with my deep bite makes my lower third short when I close my jaws so now I am back to thinking about building up the back teeth, does anyone have experience of doing this?
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If you are wearing the back teeth down now, you will STILL have that HABIT after you pay big $$$$ to have them built up with crowns. The amount that FLD charges is more than a maxfax surgeon who could give CORRECTION for deep bite.
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Surface has to be etched to accept a veneer; onlay. When reading his patent, as I recall, that was part of the process. One of the problems with the US patent office is they really don't go through the patents to notice that people are often patenting a type of process that's actually in the public venue as in methods commonly used. So, many applicants kind of get away with patenting a method that's already in common use such as the way he prepares the teeth before he puts something over them as in cleaning, germ killing and etching. Now the reason his teeth look fake as you note relates to what I said prior which is what he is doing is building them to be thicker and longer. So this 'venlay' (trademark term) will resolve to a THICK overlay in which translucency will be lost which I think explains why you've noticed these very thick overlays; 'Venlays' don't look as natural (translucent) as veneers which are usually thinner.
I'm a novice patent agent outside of the US, here we can't patent medical treatments, how does that work in the US? Other dentists can't use his procedure or does it refer to a kind of kit that contains the veneers, etching products etc that only that specific patent holder can now sell?
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I'm a novice patent agent outside of the US, here we can't patent medical treatments, how does that work in the US? Other dentists can't use his procedure or does it refer to a kind of kit that contains the veneers, etching products etc that only that specific patent holder can now sell?
Lots of patents in US for 'Cos-medical' or 'Cos-dental' devices procedures/devices. When there is a 'similar art' already in existence as in here as to what dentists do anyway when placing a veneer, the patent exists basically for marketing something for which they also get a TRADE MARK on. For example ad copy that reads; 'Dr. so and so has a patent on his method.' is used for marketing purposes. Trademarks are 'Face lift dentistry' and 'Venlays'.
Any dentist can use what ever supplies he's using to place veneers and/or crowns and for the same purpose. Basically, it's his TRADEMARK; 'Face Lift Dentistry' that's aimed at precluding other dentists from using that term in their marketing. Other dentists could also do what he's doing such as bulking out the teeth to fill up the face more, elongating the molars to change the jaw position and have done so. It's just that he found a way to CAPITALIZE that by putting a TRADEMARK on it and patenting some methods already in existence in order to boost his trademark.
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Lots of patents in US for 'Cos-medical' or 'Cos-dental' devices procedures/devices. When there is a 'similar art' already in existence as in here as to what dentists do anyway when placing a veneer, the patent exists basically for marketing something for which they also get a TRADE MARK on. For example ad copy that reads; 'Dr. so and so has a patent on his method.' is used for marketing purposes. Trademarks are 'Face lift dentistry' and 'Venlays'.
Any dentist can use what ever supplies he's using to place veneers and/or crowns and for the same purpose. Basically, it's his TRADEMARK; 'Face Lift Dentistry' that's aimed at precluding other dentists from using that term in their marketing. Other dentists could also do what he's doing such as bulking out the teeth to fill up the face more, elongating the molars to change the jaw position and have done so. It's just that he found a way to CAPITALIZE that by putting a TRADEMARK on it and patenting some methods already in existence in order to boost his trademark.
Thanks, I understand what is a trademark, it's the same here. Interesting to learn more.
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If you are wearing the back teeth down now, you will STILL have that HABIT after you pay big $$$$ to have them built up with crowns. The amount that FLD charges is more than a maxfax surgeon who could give CORRECTION for deep bite.
That’s true but I plan on using a bruxism guard from now on. I am interested in building up the worn back teeth to avoid max fac surgery. It’s too invasive and unpredictable for me. I wouldn’t use facelift dentistry - just a regular dentist. My concern is mainly how will my bite be after? I will still have the over/deep bite but my hope is that the bigger back teeth will set my lower jaw making my face slightly longer.
I have a genioplasty already that I am happy with and I plan to do this with filler at the jaw angles. I am quite open that I am trying to ‘hide’ my issues rather than go through big surgery.