jawsurgeryforums.com
Education => Educational Material => Topic started by: Lefortitude on January 22, 2018, 08:40:37 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ekawp7oi8
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Great lecture from her. But to WHAT KIND of audience. Audience questions seemed to be on the stupid side like asking what the lecturer had already covered. eg. 'Don't the jaws need to be wired shut?' Like she stressed in the lecture the jaws no longer needed to be wired shut and they use plates. But still question from dumb dumb audience member not understanding what the lecturer already covered and explained during the talk. Like how many times does she have to explain to the stupid person in the audience the same thing over and over?
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This woman doesn't know s**t.
This is just a very basic introduction to the topic. Definitely not for specialists. All she does is give an overview of what surgery is like today. She doesn't even go into things like CCW which would prevent needing the extreme 10-15mm advancements needed for sleep apnea. What a dumb dumb. The she does a bit of brou-haha about the future with augmented reality and remote surgery but obviously that s**t is still several years away. So yeah cool, but not relevant for us.
DICOM and all that s**t is used by everyone now. So that's hardly new. And it doesn't ensure a great result. She doesn't go into grafting materials or whatever. Gunson and Arnett are way advanced. And how is any of this the newest innovative stuff? It's not new at all.
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This woman doesn't know s**t.
This is just a very basic introduction to the topic. Definitely not for specialists. All she does is give an overview of what surgery is like today. She doesn't even go into things like CCW which would prevent needing the extreme 10-15mm advancements needed for sleep apnea. What a dumb dumb. The she does a bit of brou-haha about the future with augmented reality and remote surgery but obviously that s**t is still several years away. So yeah cool, but not relevant for us.
DICOM and all that s**t is used by everyone now. So that's hardly new. And it doesn't ensure a great result. She doesn't go into grafting materials or whatever. Gunson and Arnett are way advanced. And how is any of this the newest innovative stuff? It's not new at all.
I don't know if I'd say that about her. I mean consider that the AUDIENCE knows little to nothing and one of the members seeming to ask more than a few questions is really stupid. Given, she's talking to an audience who doesn't know s**t about this sort of surgery, why would you expect her to go into anymore detail? It would be too far BEYOND them.
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The future is a couple small cuts with distraction for jaw surgery - turn the device and have the surgery at home. Robots that can perform the surgery with sub 1mm error rates 100% of the time would qualify, too. And then stem cells for any other tooth issue. Until they're talking about those things they're living in the dark ages.
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I was astounded at the audience. She even mentioned at the beginning they all should have atleast a dental degree. Brutal hearing those airheaded and inconsiderate questions.
Aside from that, i thought this was a good window into the basics of the field from a high level researcher. I think as GJ said, robotic surgery and AR assisted surgery are the future. Not to mention advances in orthodontics and distraction techniques. I mean, i had orthodontics 15 years ago from a top practicioner, had extractions. That was the standard back then.feels bad man. Weve come a long way. Looking forward to a bright future.
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I was astounded at the audience. She even mentioned at the beginning they all should have atleast a dental degree. Brutal hearing those airheaded and inconsiderate questions.
Aside from that, i thought this was a good window into the basics of the field from a high level researcher. I think as GJ said, robotic surgery and AR assisted surgery are the future. Not to mention advances in orthodontics and distraction techniques. I mean, i had orthodontics 15 years ago from a top practicioner, had extractions. That was the standard back then.feels bad man. Weve come a long way. Looking forward to a bright future.
OMG!! I did not catch all of the beginning (phone rang). But unbelievable that those STUPID people had a dental degree. OMG. I couldn't even believe they were Stanford students.
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I don't know if I'd say that about her. I mean consider that the AUDIENCE knows little to nothing and one of the members seeming to ask more than a few questions is really stupid. Given, she's talking to an audience who doesn't know s**t about this sort of surgery, why would you expect her to go into anymore detail? It would be too far BEYOND them.
Sorry that woman is still a f**king moron. it's called "THE STATE OF THE ART" state of the art in most contexts means the most cutting edge and there was nothing cutting edge about that. How THE f**k COULD DENTAL STUDENTS not already know what the f**k jaws surgery is? Most normal people at least have heard of someone they know in high school or s**t who has had jaw surgery. And EXTRACTIONS are still state of the art in f**king orthodontics I got them just a few years ago and so did a bunch of us. f**k ALL THESE MAX FACS AND f**kING ORTHOS THEY"RE ALL A BUNCH OF f**k INEPT DIPs**tS. You just gotta go with the least inept dips**t you find.
Did you know that just FIVE YEARS AGO THE INSURERS OF MAX FACS IN CANADA WENT f**kING BANKRUPT BECAUSE OF THE NUMBER OF CASES AGAINST MAX FACS BY PATIENTS AND THE NUMBER OF PAYOUTS THEY HAD TO GIVE!!!????
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THE "STATE OF THE ART"
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Sorry that woman is still a f**king moron. it's called "THE STATE OF THE ART" state of the art in most contexts means the most cutting edge and there was nothing cutting edge about that. How THE f**k COULD DENTAL STUDENTS not already know what the f**k jaws surgery is? Most normal people at least have heard of someone they know in high school or s**t who has had jaw surgery. And EXTRACTIONS are still state of the art in f**king orthodontics I got them just a few years ago and so did a bunch of us. f**k ALL THESE MAX FACS AND f**kING ORTHOS THEY"RE ALL A BUNCH OF f**k INEPT DIPs**tS. You just gotta go with the least inept dips**t you find.
Did you know that just FIVE YEARS AGO THE INSURERS OF MAX FACS IN CANADA WENT f**kING BANKRUPT BECAUSE OF THE NUMBER OF CASES AGAINST MAX FACS BY PATIENTS AND THE NUMBER OF PAYOUTS THEY HAD TO GIVE!!!????
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THE "STATE OF THE ART"
Well, apparently, it was TOO 'cutting edge' for the DULL BLADES in the audience.
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Well, apparently, it was TOO 'cutting edge' for the DULL BLADES in the audience.
I know what a bunch of f**ktards. Any of the oldtimers here could school that f**king retard.
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So they don't learn about jaw surgery when they are studying dentistry? in the UK Orthos and dentists are meant to refer people for jaw surgery.
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So they don't learn about jaw surgery when they are studying dentistry? in the UK Orthos and dentists are meant to refer people for jaw surgery.
Yeah here too, that's what makes it so scary. Your average dips**t dentist and even orthos who have referred a bunch of people don't actually know anything about it or the techniques. I kid you not. My ortho didn't even know what the difference between CW and CCW was or whether expansion could be done surgically. Oh God its so depressing.
Honestly folks, I've given up on science. Until I can get my extracted teeth back nothing can be truly fixed. 2018, Elon Musk is bulls**tting everyone about sending a f**king Tesla to Mars, but guys we're no where close to the future.
f**king iPhone X and augmented reality and all that useless s**t but medically WE ARE IN THE DARK AGES. There has been absolutely ZERO innovations in the practoce of maxillofacial surgery. And most who do it are pretty s**tty at it. I've given up on science. f**k Ray Kurzweil this s**t is moving WAY WAY too slowly for me. We can't even get proper hair replacement surgery yet leave alone new teeth. Imagine what people thought was gone happen back in 2000. 18 years later, nada.
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Yeah here too, that's what makes it so scary. Your average dips**t dentist and even orthos who have referred a bunch of people don't actually know anything about it or the techniques. I kid you not. My ortho didn't even know what the difference between CW and CCW was or whether expansion could be done surgically. Oh God its so depressing.
Honestly folks, I've given up on science. Until I can get my extracted teeth back nothing can be truly fixed. 2018, Elon Musk is bulls**tting everyone about sending a f**king Tesla to Mars, but guys we're no where close to the future.
f**king iPhone X and augmented reality and all that useless s**t but medically WE ARE IN THE DARK AGES. There has been absolutely ZERO innovations in the practoce of maxillofacial surgery. And most who do it are pretty s**tty at it. I've given up on science. f**k Ray Kurzweil this s**t is moving WAY WAY too slowly for me. We can't even get proper hair replacement surgery yet leave alone new teeth. Imagine what people thought was gone happen back in 2000. 18 years later, nada.
Wouldn't surprise me if there are jaw surgeons who don't know what ccw is lol.
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Wouldn't surprise me if there are jaw surgeons who don't know what ccw is lol.
you won't be surprised when u consult with some canadian maxfacs.
I noticed a lot of surgeons who studied maxfac end up doing cosmetic surgery (boob jobs and filler and botox) because thats where the CASH was. BUT, people are slowly but surely discovering that the cashcow of fillers and botox is over inflated, and alot of cases which are prescribed cosmetic solutions would actually benefit more from a maxfax surgery. i predict a good portion of the market share from the cosmetic cash cow will begin to float over to the maxfac world. and where theres money, theres innovation. Pretty soon we will have robots doing surgery, with bone grafts made from in vivo bioreactors that generate autologous bone from mesyncemal stem cells, which will be administered IV to the patient to facilitate quicker healing.
but until then, we're in the dark ages.
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you won't be surprised when u consult with some canadian maxfacs.
I noticed a lot of surgeons who studied maxfac end up doing cosmetic surgery (boob jobs and filler and botox) because thats where the CASH was. BUT, people are slowly but surely discovering that the cashcow of fillers and botox is over inflated, and alot of cases which are prescribed cosmetic solutions would actually benefit more from a maxfax surgery. i predict a good portion of the market share from the cosmetic cash cow will begin to float over to the maxfac world. and where theres money, theres innovation. Pretty soon we will have robots doing surgery, with bone grafts made from in vivo bioreactors that generate autologous bone from mesyncemal stem cells, which will be administered IV to the patient to facilitate quicker healing.
but until then, we're in the dark ages.
Apparently the reason why there was the minimally invasive revolution of fillers and fat graft was because US doctors were / are terrified of being sued. If that's true then I don't know why most other western countries followed suit. But yeah as for fillers there are the other factors like less hassle, less complications and possibly more profitable than implants in the long term if you get the patient hooked.
I wonder if they teach surgeons studying plastic surgery about implants as comprehensively now as they used to, or if they are even discouraged.
"but until then, we're in the dark ages." That's one way of looking at it but I think it's pretty incredible what changes can be done through the right surgery. I am grateful for all the options that we have at our disposal.
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A not to be underestimated problem is that the pioneers of our time are often described as megalomaniac or totally crazy, especially by the media. This happens at the moment, e.g. the Italian genius whom I like to refer to as the new Da Vinci, the neurosurgeon Sergio Canavero, who will succeed with the world's first head transplantation in 2018 and will silence the critics.
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A not to be underestimated problem is that the pioneers of our time are often described as megalomaniac or totally crazy, especially by the media. This happens at the moment, e.g. the Italian genius whom I like to refer to as the new Da Vinci, the neurosurgeon Sergio Canavero, who will succeed with the world's first head transplantation in 2018 and will silence the critics.
I love head transplant stuff.
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Stanford isn't what it used to be. Hasn't been that for 40 years.
Strange it still has the elite perception. Many Ivy's suffer the same problems. Education is watered down.
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Stanford isn't what it used to be. Hasn't been that for 40 years.
Strange it still has the elite perception. Many Ivy's suffer the same problems. Education is watered down.
Harvard has gone way down hill too.
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Harvard has gone way down hill too.
Yes.
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Yes.
Harvard was never a place, or I should say the Medical School was never a place where state of the art maxillofacial surgery was done. It's always been Texas and California, that's where you'll find the best programs and docs and state of the art medicine. I don't even think Stanford is that great. Its more people like Wolford and Sinn who have spent their entire lives perfecting and practicing techniques that would never be sanctioned or taught in orthodox programs and then Arnett and Gunson who developed maverick technques and continue to push the art of maxillofacial surgery. The next bump will come from growing bone and gum/teeth in the lab, but that will be anywhere from 10-30 years from now. Don't hold your breath.
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The next bump will come from growing bone and gum/teeth in the lab, but that will be anywhere from 10-30 years from now. Don't hold your breath.
When was the last major breakthrough in the surgery?
I can think of CCW and not wiring the jaws shut as two in the past 25 years. It's time for another major breakthrough. Everything tech and medical is moving fast, yet it seems jawsurgery isn't keeping up.
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When was the last major breakthrough in the surgery?
I can think of CCW and not wiring the jaws shut as two in the past 25 years. It's time for another major breakthrough. Everything tech and medical is moving fast, yet it seems jawsurgery isn't keeping up.
How about the piezoelectric saw.
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How about the piezoelectric saw.
I remember almost 9 years ago I saw a surgeon who was once the head of the maxillofacial surgeons union (or whatever its called) for north america and he was mostly a researcher. He told me that they were working on finding the correct lasers to be able to do incredibly precise osteotomies without disturbing or harming the soft tissue and preventing most surgical numbness etc.. and he said they were close but to not wait for it since iit would be at least 7-10 years. Well that research project. Flash foward 9 years must have not worked.
Medical is moving fast but disciplines and practice are slow to change. I think the innovations will come once we've established quantum computing. The human mind is too stupid to figure out how to jank all the stem cell stuff and grow cells for dental and jaw implantation. Without some serious janking this isn't gonna work. But again, are we even close?
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I remember almost 9 years ago I saw a surgeon who was once the head of the maxillofacial surgeons union (or whatever its called) for north america and he was mostly a researcher. He told me that they were working on finding the correct lasers to be able to do incredibly precise osteotomies without disturbing or harming the soft tissue and preventing most surgical numbness etc.. and he said they were close but to not wait for it since iit would be at least 7-10 years. Well that research project. Flash foward 9 years must have not worked.
Medical is moving fast but disciplines and practice are slow to change. I think the innovations will come once we've established quantum computing. The human mind is too stupid to figure out how to jank all the stem cell stuff and grow cells for dental and jaw implantation. Without some serious janking this isn't gonna work. But again, are we even close?
A lot of studies and practices that use the piezoelectric saw. It's modern innovation surgery tool. http://www.wh.com/en_global/dental-newsroom/reportsandstudies/new-article/04787/
Not sure about lasers for that though as there is no vibration to them as has a saw and it seems like a good number of practices are using the pz saw now to cut through bone and not lasers.
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This will be the future, but its at least 10 years away and then who knows how long till it will be used in jaw surgery.
THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
http://www.epibone.com/#
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In fact I've essentially given up hope.
Until we have precise biological implants for both onlay and grafting and advanced computers that can predict bone and soft tissue movement WE ARE f**kED.
It's basically a huge huge toss-up what the outcome of your surgery will be like. For those of us in the neg with looks we're f**ked. Too late. Might as well just get good at something or indulge in some other interest. You're not gonna ascend with this surgery. Guaranteed.
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And if we look at this
"state of the art appraisal" of tissue engineering prospects for plastic surgery it says it takes about 20-30 years from basic science to clinical avaialbility based on how fast bone-marrow tech became a reality (or reflected in that as an example).
We're just at the level of "basic science" with tissue engineering and this article is even skeptical it is really possible. Too many barriers. Epibone is basically full of s**t. They're just probably setting up all this s**t so they can get venture capital funds and they're not even working on the basic science. A lot of companies like that out there right now. If they're little five-man company can get 10-20 million in funding they're good for salaries for the next 10 years, whether they produce anything or not.
Science is full of WAY WAY more bulls**t than any other enterprise. I know, I've seen it all.
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here's the article
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5322281/
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We're just at the level of "basic science" with tissue engineering and this article is even skeptical it is really possible. Too many barriers. Epibone is basically full of s**t. They're just probably setting up all this s**t so they can get venture capital funds and they're not even working on the basic science.
For sure. I have friends peddling penny stocks of these types of companies. No thanks.
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One of the key movers and shakers in tissue engineering, which I recognize from the bibliography of that article, is Dr. Vacanti. He is listed in the references in that article. He's made scaffolds, seeded them with liver producing cells and has made a liver. Some time ago, I used to attend his lectures at MGH.
As to the article, it isn't entirely the 'science' of tissue engineering that's too 'basic'. A lot is a matter of bureaucratic, regulatory, financing, acceptance etc. hurdles that impede it's progress and incorporation into mainstream medicine.
As to Epi-Bone, if you look at the team, although they have some studies under belt in tissue engineering, for the most part they are just young entrepreneurs.
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One of the key movers and shakers in tissue engineering, which I recognize from the bibliography of that article, is Dr. Vacanti. He is listed in the references in that article. He's made scaffolds, seeded them with liver producing cells and has made a liver. Some time ago, I used to attend his lectures at MGH.
As to the article, it isn't entirely the 'science' of tissue engineering that's too 'basic'. A lot is a matter of bureaucratic, regulatory, financing, acceptance etc. hurdles that impede it's progress and incorporation into mainstream medicine.
As to Epi-Bone, if you look at the team, although they have some studies under belt in tissue engineering, for the most part they are just young entrepreneurs.
You know your s**t Kavan. From your scientific estimation, does Epi-bone have a product in the pipeline within the next 3-5 years or are they just making s**t up?
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Most progress is during massive wars - putting the injured back in action in some sort of capacity as quickly as possible, or having lots of maimed vets to experiment on afterwards. Antibiotics, distraction osteogenesis came out of ww2.
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You know your s**t Kavan. From your scientific estimation, does Epi-bone have a product in the pipeline within the next 3-5 years or are they just making s**t up?
Well, it just looks like what they (others) are already doing with STEM CELLS. You know, taking FAT and getting the stem cells out of it and seeding them onto to a scaffold and getting them to turn into the body part you want.
IDK, on their PRESS page, most of the press is their own f**king Twitter feeds. They just seem to be a start up company looking for VENTURE CAPITAL.
I can tell you that what they are doing CAN be done. You know, get a CT scan of a shape of a bone defect, get a scaffold on which to populate the stem cells extracted from fat. But then again from the same CT scan of a bone defect shape, a 3D 'fix it' shape can also be made from another bio compatible material via 3 d printing. So, a 3D print out from a CT scan for a construct from a bio-compatible material is going to be much faster to kick up than for those stem cells to develop into bone on the scaffold.
There is also a level of, how do I say...'immaturity' about them where they are making jewelry out of the process like some ugly earings and silly smart phone cover. OK. FINE. They are trying to fuse 'art with science'.
The illustration they have is a skull with a HOLE in it's head. LOL, WTF...they are looking for cases where someone has a hole in their head to be filled with bone?
Are you interested in INVESTING in them? The bio tech firms that get the investments are the ones close to MIT and MGH where they got all the staff doing the stuff right there.
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In vivo bioreaction has proven it works. Not sure why nobodys started a company to develope it for cosmetic uses. that would be a CASHCOW. maybe il start one up...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vivo_bioreactor
If youre pessimistic, you gotta realize how small the field of maxfac surgery is compared to something like orthopedic surgery. in addition, 30 years is nothing in medical terms of technological and sociological advancements. were moving at an exponential rate. hopefully the next generation has it better than we do.
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Robots, pg 10
https://issuu.com/iaoms/docs/dec_2016_f2f
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This woman doesn't know s**t.
This is just a very basic introduction to the topic. Definitely not for specialists. All she does is give an overview of what surgery is like today. She doesn't even go into things like CCW which would prevent needing the extreme 10-15mm advancements needed for sleep apnea. What a dumb dumb. The she does a bit of brou-haha about the future with augmented reality and remote surgery but obviously that s**t is still several years away. So yeah cool, but not relevant for us.
DICOM and all that s**t is used by everyone now. So that's hardly new. And it doesn't ensure a great result. She doesn't go into grafting materials or whatever. Gunson and Arnett are way advanced. And how is any of this the newest innovative stuff? It's not new at all.
Lazlo do you have anything you could recommend reading or watching to understand all the basics of how things work with Jaw surgery?
That way you can get a basic idea whether your surgeon is using the best type of approaches or not? I've gotta go with an in-network guy.
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Lazlo do you have anything you could recommend reading or watching to understand all the basics of how things work with Jaw surgery?
That way you can get a basic idea whether your surgeon is using the best type of approaches or not? I've gotta go with an in-network guy.
I don't, but you could just google methods of jaw surgery on youtube or something. I don't know. Your doctor should clearly explain what is being done.
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I don't, but you could just google methods of jaw surgery on youtube or something. I don't know. Your doctor should clearly explain what is being done.
Yeah I get that, I was basically just trying to see if there was a guide that could help you with what type of warning signs to look out for when talking with the surgeon.
I was also wondering if age and lots of years of experience could end up being a bad thing when going with a surgeon.
Like, are there better, newer approaches & methods used in jaw surgery now that a surgeon with 20 or 30 years experience wouldn't do? Or is it all the same stuff?
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Apparently the reason why there was the minimally invasive revolution of fillers and fat graft was because US doctors were / are terrified of being sued. If that's true then I don't know why most other western countries followed suit. But yeah as for fillers there are the other factors like less hassle, less complications and possibly more profitable than implants in the long term if you get the patient hooked.
I wonder if they teach surgeons studying plastic surgery about implants as comprehensively now as they used to, or if they are even discouraged.
"but until then, we're in the dark ages." That's one way of looking at it but I think it's pretty incredible what changes can be done through the right surgery. I am grateful for all the options that we have at our disposal.
Its not only that, but its also a money issue from the patient's standpoint. You have to realize that a large majority of Americans don't even have $1000USD of savings! If this is the case, then how the heck would anyone be able to afford even a $5000 procedure? They couldn't. Filler and botox is much more obtainable. And surgeons are catering to this.
Now, that said, upper middle class Americans could afford more crazy hardcore osteotomies, but I guess they want to cater to the masses and even often push BS, useless, waste-of-time procedures onto the upper middle class audience.
"I am grateful for all the options that we have at our disposal."
What options? Sorry to be pessimistic, but honestly there isn't much that can be done. I saw an awesome result for a monobloc osteotomy that people were initially like "wait, that's the same person?" But never in hell will we be able to find a surgeon who does it cosmetically.
What is needed is artificial bone, better AI for automated procedure, or at least semi automated procedures to allow precise cuts, and surgeons to explore and go into more "exotic" procedures (obscure ones) and what not.
But really, if one is rich and motivated to want a better face (actual improvements too), then hell, he/she could even create a research team specifically for them, lol. Think about a guy who makes 5 million dollars a year. That guy could spend 2 million dollars a year on a doctor or two and a small set of researchers along with equipment, etc to make them research that guy's specific case and take specific precautions, etc to do crazy stuff which they might be willing to do at a high price.
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But really, if one is rich and motivated to want a better face (actual improvements too), then hell, he/she could even create a research team specifically for them, lol. Think about a guy who makes 5 million dollars a year. That guy could spend 2 million dollars a year on a doctor or two and a small set of researchers along with equipment, etc to make them research that guy's specific case and take specific precautions, etc to do crazy stuff which they might be willing to do at a high price.
2 million is not gonna buy you anything.
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2 million is not gonna buy you anything.
Ye I realize I underestimated. Like I said it's all f**ked. But my point stands. It's more like space program tier money and you would have to be a billionaire.
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That was a great video, and really helped explain the whole process really well.
Is there anything else you could recommend watching?
Also what do you think of this article? https://blog.profilosurgical.com.au/blog/jaw-surgery-your-questions-answered (https://blog.profilosurgical.com.au/blog/jaw-surgery-your-questions-answered)
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Yeah here too, that's what makes it so scary. Your average dips**t dentist and even orthos who have referred a bunch of people don't actually know anything about it or the techniques. I kid you not. My ortho didn't even know what the difference between CW and CCW was or whether expansion could be done surgically. Oh God its so depressing.
Honestly folks, I've given up on science. Until I can get my extracted teeth back nothing can be truly fixed. 2018, Elon Musk is bulls**tting everyone about sending a f**king Tesla to Mars, but guys we're no where close to the future.
f**king iPhone X and augmented reality and all that useless s**t but medically WE ARE IN THE DARK AGES. There has been absolutely ZERO innovations in the practoce of maxillofacial surgery. And most who do it are pretty s**tty at it. I've given up on science. f**k Ray Kurzweil this s**t is moving WAY WAY too slowly for me. We can't even get proper hair replacement surgery yet leave alone new teeth. Imagine what people thought was gone happen back in 2000. 18 years later, nada.
Lazlo, there are a couple great hair specialist that are
doing some great work out there. I actually had a consult
with one as of recently.
To the extent the f****** jaw surgery procedures and
methods go. Are dental students really not being shown the
advanced s***? How the hell are you expected to get a
decent outcome from something when you're when you're
anticipating that the OMFS should know everything. Don't
great before/afters state enough? I think I know about as
much information as that video shows. LOL