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41
Aesthetics / Re: Modified lefort 3 or other ways of cheekbone augmentation?
« Last post by kavan on March 26, 2024, 11:53:04 AM »
Why? If you know something share it. That is the purpose of the forum. It's not to hoard information, increasing the odds someone gets a failed procedure, and then judge people who don't want to read textbooks. This makes you look worse than the person asking a question.

Did you not notice I took some time in my last entry to share some information with him? Keep in mind, I am a volunteer here and I don't like being obliged or given a guilt trip because I don't spoon feed or otherwise coach people coming in here in pursuit of ML3.  I've made my boundaries quite clear on that years back way before this guy signed up. In the event he signed up here for DIRECT access to me (which appears like he did given he 'jumped' my signature of 'NO PMs') or any expectation that I had some obligation to coach him just because he signed up here, I'm NOT the one who contributed to that expectation.

Again, I am a VOLUNTEER here. Someone who receives no financial contributions for volunteering here (nor do I request any). So, in the event he made a financial contribution here with the expectation I provide him with all the info he needs to pursue ML3 (which you are obliging me via a guilt trip to provide), then maybe he should get a refund.
42
Aesthetics / Re: Please help! Surgeon recommendation for chin reduction surgery
« Last post by GJ on March 26, 2024, 06:53:13 AM »

@GJ: Thank you so much for warning me about the big risk of cutting the mentalis a 2nd time. I had a consultation with Dr Jeffrey Spiegel. He suggested shaving the chin bone a few mm shorter through an incision inside the mouth instead of removing a midsection. Does this technique also pose a risk of drooping or damaging the muscle?


You should ask him. But based on what you wrote, my guess is he's saying he'd open up the original cut and try to reduce the bone without cutting the mentalis. Some surgeons to in through underneath the chin, too, to avoid making those 2nd cuts. You can look into all of that and ask those questions on your consults.
43
Aesthetics / Re: Modified lefort 3 or other ways of cheekbone augmentation?
« Last post by GJ on March 26, 2024, 06:50:13 AM »
The take home message of my statement is that I don't spoon feed with help about pursuing ML3. So, those wanting this need to rely on their own smarts and ability to research and go on many consultations as did Earl. Not my task here to compensate for any lapses of abilities or luck in that regard.

Why? If you know something share it. That is the purpose of the forum. It's not to hoard information, increasing the odds someone gets a failed procedure, and then judge people who don't want to read textbooks. This makes you look worse than the person asking a question.
44
Aesthetics / Re: Too much jaw and chin bone removed what are my options?
« Last post by GJ on March 26, 2024, 06:48:18 AM »
I literally posted my CT scan up above

I see one frontal scan, which isn't enough.
45
Aesthetics / Re: Too much jaw and chin bone removed what are my options?
« Last post by mindwitch on March 26, 2024, 06:36:50 AM »
The genioplasty doesn't seem to help much. First do you have deep bite/overbite? if not. Do your parents have the sagging?  Nothing beats surgery in cases like this. I'd recommend sharing side ,profile pictures. But mentoplasty could help. That genio did not do much because it only adressed the small area of the tip of the chin. Look into Garcia y Sanchez mentoplasty or mentoplasty in general. Might help. Try eating harder foods for lower jaw.

No as mentioned I had mandible contouring and t-osetomy. The jowls is a result of that.
46
Aesthetics / Re: Too much jaw and chin bone removed what are my options?
« Last post by mindwitch on March 26, 2024, 05:49:05 AM »
The genioplasty doesn't seem to help much. First do you have deep bite/overbite? if not. Do your parents have the sagging?  Nothing beats surgery in cases like this. I'd recommend sharing side ,profile pictures. But mentoplasty could help. That genio did not do much because it only adressed the small area of the tip of the chin. Look into Garcia y Sanchez mentoplasty or mentoplasty in general. Might help. Try eating harder foods for lower jaw.

No as mentioned I had mandible contouring and t-osetomy. The jowls is a result of that.
47
Aesthetics / Re: Too much jaw and chin bone removed what are my options?
« Last post by mindwitch on March 26, 2024, 05:44:11 AM »
We need to see scans of your jaws.

This could just be an inelastic skin issue, which some people have.

I literally posted my CT scan up above
48
Aesthetics / Re: Please help! Surgeon recommendation for chin reduction surgery
« Last post by Linda91 on March 25, 2024, 11:20:41 PM »
Thanx for your compliments. I was able (and motivated) to help because I could see you had a base line for 'digesting' the type of info I'm good at providing. I could tell by your presentation, how you went about asking and also that you basically knew how to take some relative measures of proportion. So, what ever 'gaps' you had as to uncertainty, I felt I could fill in. Good to hear doctor told you about possibility of soft tissue slack afterwards. However, I can't vouch that the modalities suggested would kick up a  clean streamline contour curve like you already have but shorter. Some, a 'touch' of masculine can work well in femme faces. Just look at Angelina Jolie or a lot of the female news anchors. It's a good frame for the rest of the female features and contour curves you possess above the chin are especially the lifted lip and the nose.


Thank you Kavan!

I´m sure that with your kind of analysis, no one would ever make a bad surgery decision again  :)
I assume that you have developed a hyperaesthetic eye through your studies in Fine Arts/Art History.
Most surgeon could learn from that...
And yes, you are absolulety right about highly attractive female faces with some contrasting masculine features.


49
Aesthetics / Re: Please help! Surgeon recommendation for chin reduction surgery
« Last post by kavan on March 25, 2024, 10:14:21 AM »
Thanx for your compliments. I was able (and motivated) to help because I could see you had a base line for 'digesting' the type of info I'm good at providing. I could tell by your presentation, how you went about asking and also that you basically knew how to take some relative measures of proportion. So, what ever 'gaps' you had as to uncertainty, I felt I could fill in. Good to hear doctor told you about possibility of soft tissue slack afterwards. However, I can't vouch that the modalities suggested would kick up a  clean streamline contour curve like you already have but shorter. Some, a 'touch' of masculine can work well in femme faces. Just look at Angelina Jolie or a lot of the female news anchors. It's a good frame for the rest of the female features and contour curves you possess above the chin are especially the lifted lip and the nose.

Thank you so much Kavan!

Your analysis is brilliant.

Dr Spiegel wanted to manage the risk of losing soft tissue support by treating the area with Morpheus8 and Facetite afterwards.
However, I was already a bit skeptical about this approarch.
I think Morpheus8 and Facetite may thighten connective tissue and dermis but not the mentalis for example.

What touched me most in your analysis is that you explained that there is artistic ´freedom´ in the division of the lip area. It caused me to measure my face in a few other frontal photos. I found that in most photos the lip division is very close to the 1:2 ratio.

Your brilliant analysis has made me decide not to have a chin reduction.
In other words, you saved me from having surgery without any aesthetic benefit (or ending up looking worse than before surgery).
I deeply appreciate it.

It still bothers me that the lower third of my face is a bit long. I personally prefer the look of a more feminized shorter jaw.

However, your analysis made me realize that it´s not just the chin that causes the long face and trying to correct it most likely makes things worse due to the risk of losing soft tissue support.

If you have any other suggestions for shortening the lower third without this risk, I would love to hear from you.

But I guess it doesn't exist and it's better to leave it as it is.
I also hope that the lower third will shorten automatically with age (due to tooth wear et cetera).

Thanks again Kavan!
50
Aesthetics / Re: Please help! Surgeon recommendation for chin reduction surgery
« Last post by Linda91 on March 25, 2024, 08:31:30 AM »

OBSERVATIONS:

Scull scan reveals a 'tall' face which is consistent with the longish periform aperture (pear shaped hole of the nose area). Jaw balance and bite are great. Step off seen to the chin is well masked by the SOFT TISSUE envelope when looking at the frontal full FLESH photo. So, the outcome of the genio shortening the chin and advancing it forward was that your soft tissue HID visibility of the bone step off from the genio AND the genio (upward displacement of it) SUPPORTED the soft tissue of the chin area=GOOD OUTCOME.

DIVISION OF '1/3rds':

As someone who studied Fine Arts/Art History at Harvard, I will tell you that the division of 3rds arises from Leonardo and Durer. But as a basic guideline for DRAWING a face. However, it, in itself was not meant to DEFINE 'perfection'. In fact, Leonardo WARPED the ratios to draw hideous faces (as to demonstrate extreme deviations) and did not stick to that ratio when painting the Mona Lisa's face. I will also add that forensic studies of distance relationships inherent in normal to attractive faces reveal division ratios that DIFFER from equal thirds for normal to attractive faces. The point I'm making here is that you need to be cautious about using that as some kind of 'directive' to ALTER your own face via surgery. As to the division of thirds, as it can apply to an attractive face, art students are often encouraged to use different ratios that deviate somewhat from exact division of thirds to draw an aesthetically pleasing face.

YOUR DIVISION OF '1/3rds':

You got the lines right as to hairline, nasal base and chin. But the glabella line was too high. When I lowered this line to be approx at the 'root' of the nose, between the the medial brows, your upper 'third' was equal to the middle 'third'. Now as to the lower 'third' it was longer than upper and midface 'thirds'. For example my RELATIVE measures were 5 'units' for upper, 5 units for middle and 5.9 units for lower 'third'. HOWEVER, there is some leeway one can divide the lower 'third' into thirds in your case. For example, the division line is usually through the oral commissures (corners of mouth). You took some leeway in this because your line passes through where the lips part at CENTER of lips. Through the lower corners of mouth the dividing line would be LOWER than your dividing line. So, the corners of the mouth being LOWER than the parting of the central lip area allows some leeway to use a line lower than your division line but higher than a division line above the corners of the mouth. When I used such a line, I got a division of 3rds for the lower 3rd of face. So, there are some artistic 'liberties' one can take here as to the glabella line and the division at the LIP area and they bear out that the upper and middle areas equal each other and although the lower area is longer, the division of that can be seen as 1/3rd upper and 2/3 lower. So, the division I came up with is that of a TALL yet attractive face in terms of facial ratios. That is to say, it does NOT call for shortening the chin.

SOFT TISSUE OBSERVATIONS.

It looks like you may have had a rhino (if so, it looks good and well sculpted). It also looks like you may have had a lip lift. Perhaps the kind where they hide the scars INSIDE the nostrils. It looks that way because you don't have sills at nostril (little ledges) and the philtral ledges appear to be sucked into your nostrils. So, it looks characteristic of a type of lip lift that lifts the CENTRAL part of the lips where hiding the incision inside the nostrils involves cutting into the little ledges (sills) at nostril nose base. Also, the fact that the corners of your mouth are lower than the central area of where the lips part, that is also consistent with a lip lift. Now, the overall aesthetic GESTALT of the short upper lip area looks GOOD and as I said prior, there is some leeway as to where to set the dividing line to get a 1/3rd to 2/3 division of the lower 'third' of the face. But when you set the lip divide line where you did through central parting of the lips in a circumstance when the corners of the mouth are down lower, leeway has it that the divide line can be set lower than where you placed it but higher than the corners of the mouth to get a 1/3rd to 2/3rds division.

CONCLUSION:

You have a very attractive 'tall' face and although the tallness comes from the chin area, it's NOT a 'long' chin. Also, the contour curve of the lower face is a nice streamline curve (no scalloping) to it. So, there is excellent SOFT TISSUE to BONE STRUCTURE BALANCE to the lower face. The PREDICTIVE aesthetic risks that I see IF you shorten the chin to fit into 'equal division of 3rds' OR 'more feminized shorter chin' would tend to be similar to what I see in other people who pursue the chin shortening as to fit into some ratio they tell themselves they need to fit into. They end up losing soft tissue support. For example there is no guarantee that if you shorten your chin BONE that the soft tissue is going to hug that tightly for a stream line contour curve. The outcome could give appearance that the chin might not look shorter due to the soft tissue envelope surrounding the bone NOT getting shorter and if the soft tissue starts to 'hang' or droop around the bone removal, the chin would still look long to you. Hence your aesthetic risk is losing some of the present stream line contour curve you now have which is a good BALANCE of bone support and soft tissue contour. Basically, if you shorten the chin bone, your central chin BONE goes UP. So, you can be sure the chin BONE would be shorter (on an X ray). But you can't be sure that the SOFT TISSUE of the chin would go up along with it (or not droop down). Personally, I think the potential aesthetic loss of good soft tissue coverage (and good bone support of it) risk outweighs any aesthetic gain to be had from shortening the chin bone. I don't envision an aesthetic gain from shortening the chin bone.

Enclosed is an illustration.



Thank you so much Kavan!

Your analysis is brilliant.

Dr Spiegel wanted to manage the risk of losing soft tissue support by treating the area with Morpheus8 and Facetite afterwards.
However, I was already a bit skeptical about this approarch.
I think Morpheus8 and Facetite may thighten connective tissue and dermis but not the mentalis for example.

What touched me most in your analysis is that you explained that there is artistic ´freedom´ in the division of the lip area. It caused me to measure my face in a few other frontal photos. I found that in most photos the lip division is very close to the 1:2 ratio.

Your brilliant analysis has made me decide not to have a chin reduction.
In other words, you saved me from having surgery without any aesthetic benefit (or ending up looking worse than before surgery).
I deeply appreciate it.

It still bothers me that the lower third of my face is a bit long. I personally prefer the look of a more feminized shorter jaw.

However, your analysis made me realize that it´s not just the chin that causes the long face and trying to correct it most likely makes things worse due to the risk of losing soft tissue support.

If you have any other suggestions for shortening the lower third without this risk, I would love to hear from you.

But I guess it doesn't exist and it's better to leave it as it is.
I also hope that the lower third will shorten automatically with age (due to tooth wear et cetera).

Thanks again Kavan!


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