Ideal Male Philtrum:Chin Ratio

[Optimistic]

Are there any determined ideals regarding the ratio of philtrum to chin? I know in typically all cases you want to have equal thirds of the face, however men are 'allowed' to have a longer lower third which can sometimes denote added masculinity. Indeed, oftentimes longer chins can offset long philtrums as is the case with people like George Clooney.

What is everyone's take on the situation? Clearly a very short philtrum would be ideal but not everyone's so fortunate. Their options then would be to get jaw surgery and strive solely for equal thirds, or to lengthen the chin and attempt to improve the philtrum:chin ratio. So which would be more important? Furthermore, could the latter option very easily step into the territory of elongating the face? Making the face longer again without the necessary width to compensate?

So my question is: What is the ideal philtrum:chin ratio? And is it worth risking a long face for?


Here are some examples for your consideration

Equal facial thirds with short chin and average-to-slightly-long philtrum



Short upper and mid-facial thirds with longer lower third (average philtrum and longer chin)




Long philtrum with even longer chin. Shorter upper and mid-facial thirds



Equal facial thirds with short philtrum and longer chin




Marquardt Masque (Masculine)

[needadvancement]

Thanks for this information. I never realised why exactly I hated my philtrum, it's relatively long(at like 18mm, but it could have been 20+ like other people) but my vertically short chin is making it look terrible because the height of the upperlip stands out. I agree that the men who can pull off a long upper lip also have tall chins. I don't know what the exact ratios would be though.

[ForeverDet]

I kind of reject that there's an ideal because while there is a average lip/chin length and range that most people without jaw or facial issues fall into yet it still is not remotely absolute or important in overall attractiveness. Of course significant deviations will causes aesthetics to decline.

However like you demonstrated there's so much variation, you get good looking george clooney with the looooong upper lip and chin. You get the short upper lip and chin Tom Hardy with super full lips AND deep mental labial fold with recessed profile (yet a class I bite).

I think lip:chin ratio is not like other traits relationally e.g. the excessively short or long middle third of people's faces (think David Schwimmer) or excessively close set or wide eyes... which are pretty much unalterable and have a huge impact even if the rest of your face is "ideal".

EDIT: To answer your question, I think the balanced thirds is more important because you see plenty of "short" lip people who show tons of upper teeth yet are good looking without jaw issues. But you know what, maybe I'm wrong! haha

EDIT2: Ok forget to say there are values tossed around, usually 1:2 ratio, upper lip to lower lip (which most superior point of lower lip to bottom of face so entire chin). I've also seen 1:2.2 ratio.

I just measured mine. It's almost exactly 1:2 ratio, s**t it's close. But I've had double jaw surgery and my lower third was already close to normalish I think pre-surgery.

[Optimistic]

I kind of reject that there's an ideal because while there is a average lip/chin length and range that most people without jaw or facial issues fall into yet it still is not remotely absolute or important in overall attractiveness. Of course significant deviations will causes aesthetics to decline.

However like you demonstrated there's so much variation, you get good looking george clooney with the looooong upper lip and chin. You get the short upper lip and chin Tom Hardy with super full lips AND deep mental labial fold with recessed profile (yet a class I bite).

I think lip:chin ratio is not like other traits relationally e.g. the excessively short or long middle third of people's faces (think David Schwimmer) or excessively close set or wide eyes... which are pretty much unalterable and have a huge impact even if the rest of your face is "ideal".

EDIT: To answer your question, I think the balanced thirds is more important because you see plenty of "short" lip people who show tons of upper teeth yet are good looking without jaw issues. But you know what, maybe I'm wrong! haha

EDIT2: Ok forget to say there are values tossed around, usually 1:2 ratio, upper lip to lower lip (which most superior point of lower lip to bottom of face so entire chin). I've also seen 1:2.2 ratio.

I just measured mine. It's almost exactly 1:2 ratio, s**t it's close. But I've had double jaw surgery and my lower third was already close to normalish I think pre-surgery.

I think we're on a similar wave length.

thing is though, when I got my chin wing I asked to not lower it because I was afraid of looking different from the front (as I was happy with my appearance). When Dr Sinn saw my photos he said he would've lengthened the chin.

When I take measurements in photoshop I'm also very close to a 1:2 ratio, with my chin being what might be 1-2mm too short. Seeing as I'm going to have an osteotomy shortly to address my labiomental fold I have the option to make the chin slightly lower. Problem is this would then make my lower third a couple mm longer than the other thirds, AND I personally feel I'm on the edge when it comes to having a longer type face. Granted I'll see Sinn for infraorbital rim advancement which will add a lot of width. It's a tough call.

[mike888miller]

the rim advancement with give you projection, but not add much width, unless i am missing something ?

[Optimistic]

the rim advancement with give you projection, but not add much width, unless i am missing something ?

synonym for modified le fort III - it's moving the entire malar complex so actually can add a huge amount of width as it's a lot of bone moving a lot of soft tissue.

[schrodinger]

A long chin can be aging feature. Most younger guys have a shorter chin. this is mostly true for women too.

[Lazlo]

Tom Cruise short philtrium longer chin short middle is the ideal. That's what all male models have. End of discussion.

[Optimistic]

Tom Cruise short philtrium longer chin short middle is the ideal. That's what all male models have. End of discussion.

I seriously wonder about you sometimes. No s**t short philtrum is 'ideal' but changing that is nigh impossible, whereas seeing as we're on a JAW SURGERY FORUM we can all influence chin height during the operation. So it's possible to improve ratios. 

f**king waste of time.

[Optimistic]

A long chin can be aging feature. Most younger guys have a shorter chin. this is mostly true for women too.

You're referring to neoteny I think, which yes is true, however I feel more appropriate to women. Men don't necessarily need or want a youthful appearance.

Short chins may look youthful, but strong chins are more masculine. Thus the question: What is ideal?

A guy in here linked to a thread with a chart mentioning 2:1 like I did in my first post, however I don't know where this comes from and how accurate it really is. Especially when all the surgery books I've read seem to pull this stuff out of thin air. Most of ideal facial illustrations are extremely flat too. I'd trust Marquardt a lot more, even if his model sits in a slight underbite.

[ForeverDet]

A guy in here linked to a thread with a chart mentioning 2:1 like I did in my first post, however I don't know where this comes from and how accurate it really is. Especially when all the surgery books I've read seem to pull this stuff out of thin air.

I give props to Arnet because he independently figured out all his values from examining the faces of 40 or something good looking male/female models with had no jaw/teeth issues. So in that case, the 1:2/2.2 comes from fairly objective measurements of aesthetically pleasing faces (I guess that part is a bit subjective but it's still solid).

[Charles-Guillaume]

Wherefrom is the chin measured? Lowest margin of bottom lip to menton, lowest margin of bottom teeth to menton, labiomental fold to menton?

My philtrum is 14.5-15 mm long, which I suppose is about average to short-ish. I also have a rather small chin though, depending on how I measure it it is 28-36 mm tall.

[schrodinger]

You're referring to neoteny I think, which yes is true, however I feel more appropriate to women. Men don't necessarily need or want a youthful appearance.

Short chins may look youthful, but strong chins are more masculine. Thus the question: What is ideal?

A guy in here linked to a thread with a chart mentioning 2:1 like I did in my first post, however I don't know where this comes from and how accurate it really is. Especially when all the surgery books I've read seem to pull this stuff out of thin air. Most of ideal facial illustrations are extremely flat too. I'd trust Marquardt a lot more, even if his model sits in a slight underbite.

Youthful look is desirable for men too. Look at young vs old Johnny Depp. He lost some attraction for most girls but most girls found him extremely hot when he was younger. He had a short chin and babyface. Leonardo DiCaprio had the babyface too. Girls love that. Now girls don't find him that sexy anymore. Same for Brad Pitt. Girls loved him when he looked younger, now less then when he was younger.

Depp had a short chin when he was young and the babyface. If you show girls picture of the young vs the old Depp they will pick the young Johnny Depp over how he looks now anytime.

[ForeverDet]

Wherefrom is the chin measured? Lowest margin of bottom lip to menton, lowest margin of bottom teeth to menton, labiomental fold to menton?

My philtrum is 14.5-15 mm long, which I suppose is about average to short-ish. I also have a rather small chin though, depending on how I measure it it is 28-36 mm tall.

Highest point of your lower lip all the way to the lowest point of your chin. That is the measurement I was responding to in this thread. In jaw surgery text books they sometimes call it upper lip to lower lip ratio so it encompasses the chin too.

Check out bottom of page 3, it shows an example of a patient with excessively long chin and the lip:chin measurements. http://www.orthodontics4u.co.uk/dentist_information/facial%20aesthetics%202.pdf