Author Topic: Do people who favor the "Anteface" look aim for an abnormally high SNA/SNB?  (Read 702 times)

secondtimearound

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One thing I've never understood on jaw surgery and cosmetic surgery sites is how many people seem to want an "anteface".

Good examples of surgery with the outcome of what I mean are as follows (the male had CCW and advancement for sleep apnea):





Naturally, many boxers and fighters have these types of facial structure to begin with:





In some ways, it does look great. Both the surgical examples at the top definitely look better after than before. It creates a very strong and long jaw line. It looks "powerful" even if slightly ape-like at times. Arnett and Gunson I've heard often aim for this aesthetic.

But is this really ideal? I wonder, what would the SNA/SNB angles look like on the examples above? I'm guessing above the normal, since I have nowhere near this level of jaw projection and mine are already above average.

For contrast, here is the profile of Jude Law, who has what I would guess would be as cephalometrically perfect a face as exists naturally:



He is neither recessed nor overly projected. He just looks harmonious to me.

What are your opinions on this phenomenon and goal of an "ante-face"? I even see people who have perfect jaws talking about trying to get both jaws advanced to try to create this appearance, and I am not sure about it at all.

Thoughts?

kavan

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The first photo of woman is Sailer's and I think the second one of the guy is too. Word has it that he PHOTO SHOPS his cases (or someone does that FOR him) and he's insanely overpriced. GJ, the owner here is not too fond of Sailer being showcased here. Just to let you know.

Also, too ante face as you say the boxers, just looks too pugnacious and if gone too far can give a Neanderthal (or is that cro-magnon) gestalt.
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PloskoPlus

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Surgeons like to play shenanigans with photos - patients look down pre-op, look up post-op.

Lestat

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An Anteface is the second best "facial type" after the Hyperanteface! I know that Marlene Dietrich had a Hyperanteface! Does anyone know more examples?

Lefortitude

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Sailers results are 100% photoshopped (first two examples).  id say he WAY over does it, but thats the kind of clientel he serves: those who want outrageously dramatic changes.

The negroid (technical term, not a racist) skull naturally has a more forward set jaw, yet is usually offset by a less sloping forehead and less glabella bossing. I should be careful with my words here, as to not offend, but having high SNA/SNB angles without proportionally forward set midface features (zygomatic complex, inferior orbital rims, nasal spine etc) results in the more baboonish look.  and as you can see on brock lesnar, the superior orbital ridge, or "glabella bossing" is also a sexually dimorphic feature indicating high testosterone and a large frontal sinus.  This evolutionally appeared in primates as an advantage in breathing (bigger sinuses, bigger airways, better survival, more resistent to breathing congestion, host of other things but il skip the bio and just say its advantageous).
 
I would argue that the beautiful ante face we see in people like Marlene Dietrich or Angelina Jolie are not simply a result of forward set jaw, but an entirely forward grown middle third and lower third.  Trying to achieve ante face on someone with recessed orbitals and zygomas requires alloplastic augmentation, or high level osteotomies (LF3) in combination with orthognathic surgery.  It is the holy grail of beauty imo.

PloskoPlus

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Photos taken from below exaggerate it IMO. The key is balance.

kavan

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Sailers results are 100% photoshopped (first two examples).  id say he WAY over does it, but thats the kind of clientel he serves: those who want outrageously dramatic changes.

The negroid (technical term, not a racist) skull naturally has a more forward set jaw, yet is usually offset by a less sloping forehead and less glabella bossing. I should be careful with my words here, as to not offend, but having high SNA/SNB angles without proportionally forward set midface features (zygomatic complex, inferior orbital rims, nasal spine etc) results in the more baboonish look.  and as you can see on brock lesnar, the superior orbital ridge, or "glabella bossing" is also a sexually dimorphic feature indicating high testosterone and a large frontal sinus.  This evolutionally appeared in primates as an advantage in breathing (bigger sinuses, bigger airways, better survival, more resistent to breathing congestion, host of other things but il skip the bio and just say its advantageous).
 
I would argue that the beautiful ante face we see in people like Marlene Dietrich or Angelina Jolie are not simply a result of forward set jaw, but an entirely forward grown middle third and lower third.  Trying to achieve ante face on someone with recessed orbitals and zygomas requires alloplastic augmentation, or high level osteotomies (LF3) in combination with orthognathic surgery.  It is the holy grail of beauty imo.

Baboons have an acute 'Camper's angle'.
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kavan

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S, N, A, and B are landmark points seen on a ceph. So connecting S-N line to the A point makes the SNA angle. Connecting S-N line with the B point makes the SNB angle.   SNA-SNB=  ANB angle.
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Lestat

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I have an ante face now and had bimax retrognathia preop. I don't like it and im considering revision. I would have liked an orthognatic profile instead of an ante face. My nose and cheekbones were buried by the huge jaw advancement, and I feel my occlusal plane is completely horizontal. I did not know I was going to get an ante face. I had a transformation similar to the ones the Sailer's patients had and I am so depressed about my face having changed so much.

You're confusing something! Having an anteface means that the midface and zygoma also need to have good forward growth, not just the jaws. Anteface = forward grown face and not only forward grown jaws.

Instead of a revision I would try to build up the cheekbones a little, or push the midface forward. Your jaws are not to blame that you are dissatisfied with your appearance, because they correspond to the prevailing ideal of beauty.

Why did'nt you consider High Lefort I instead of a normal Lefort 1?

secondtimearound

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You're confusing something! Having an anteface means that the midface and zygoma also need to have good forward growth, not just the jaws. Anteface = forward grown face and not only forward grown jaws.

Instead of a revision I would try to build up the cheekbones a little, or push the midface forward. Your jaws are not to blame that you are dissatisfied with your appearance, because they correspond to the prevailing ideal of beauty.

Why did'nt you consider High Lefort I instead of a normal Lefort 1?

This is the problem. According to WHO is this the "prevailing ideal of beauty"?

Does Jude Law have an anteface? Tom Cruise? Nick Bateman? Chico Lachowski?

This is one of the top male models in the world:



This is Michaelangelo's David:



This man has made more money off his face in Hollywood than almost anyone on the planet:



This is one of the most followed men on Instagram:



Loads of top male and female models and actors don't have a babboonish advanced lower third and are considered beautiful.

It is conventional science that averaged faces are most attractive. That is what cephalometrics are based on - averaging faces. Therefore should a cephalometrically correct face not be most beautiful for that person's potential?

Are we now going to say intentionally creating abnornalities like an abnormally high SNA and SNB is "ideal"? Based on what science or evidence?

The only people I have seen claiming the "anteface" is the "ideal" are "memologists" on the Internet (most of whom have never had and will never have jaw surgery) and guys like Mike Mew. As far as I know there is no science to back the idea that this should be considered a standard for beauty as true.

Mazilla you should get some cephs done and get an analysis from cephx.com. Let us know what your SNA and SNB angles are as these are the easiest ways to judge the jaw positions. If they are normal or close enough you don't need revision - you need cheekbone and infraorbital implants likely as suggested.

If the angles are too high though your surgeon may have done you a disservice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 06:25:51 AM by secondtimearound »

Lefortitude

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Re: Do people who favor the "Anteface" look aim for an abnormally high SNA/SNB?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2017, 09:40:57 AM »
This is the problem. According to WHO is this the "prevailing ideal of beauty"?

Does Jude Law have an anteface? Tom Cruise? Nick Bateman? Chico Lachowski?

This is one of the top male models in the world:



This is Michaelangelo's David:



This man has made more money off his face in Hollywood than almost anyone on the planet:



This is one of the most followed men on Instagram:



Loads of top male and female models and actors don't have a babboonish advanced lower third and are considered beautiful.

It is conventional science that averaged faces are most attractive. That is what cephalometrics are based on - averaging faces. Therefore should a cephalometrically correct face not be most beautiful for that person's potential?

Are we now going to say intentionally creating abnornalities like an abnormally high SNA and SNB is "ideal"? Based on what science or evidence?

The only people I have seen claiming the "anteface" is the "ideal" are "memologists" on the Internet (most of whom have never had and will never have jaw surgery) and guys like Mike Mew. As far as I know there is no science to back the idea that this should be considered a standard for beauty as true.

Mazilla you should get some cephs done and get an analysis from cephx.com. Let us know what your SNA and SNB angles are as these are the easiest ways to judge the jaw positions. If they are normal or close enough you don't need revision - you need cheekbone and infraorbital implants likely as suggested.

If the angles are too high though your surgeon may have done you a disservice.

I like this post because it takes into account human perception and dosnt just leave it to the numbers.  I am technically severely retrognathic but not visibly repulsive (i dont think).  If you look at people with abnormally high SNA/SNB angles they are extremely good looking or extremely not.  in my opinion even going for a "straight" profile look is aggressive, and going past the cranial base (nasion) is ill advised except for rare circumstances in cases with strong orbital ridges and prominent zygomatic complexes.

secondtimearound

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Re: Do people who favor the "Anteface" look aim for an abnormally high SNA/SNB?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2017, 10:54:49 AM »
Ok that was quick, I got my analysis.

SNA: 81.03
SNB: 81,97
ANB: -0,94

I dont understand the numbers

You need to give us the normal ranges for that analysis. It will be next to the measurement for you. It will be given as a "mean" value with a SD (standard deviation).

Can you give us that info? Ie. Your value, mean, and SD?

I'm curious. Also with your values, can you find the "Wits" analysis and post the value for that with the mean and SD?

If your SNA/B reference normal mean and SD data is the same as mine (I'm not sure if this is gender specific or what gender you are), your jaws are pretty perfectly aligned and I don't think your surgeon brought them too far forward at all. Your upper is 1 degree behind ideal. Your lower jaw is maybe 2 degrees ahead of the average (one SD, ie. farther forward than 68% of people) which is still well within normal parameters.

If you're male the strong lower jaw is likely a good thing. If you're a female maybe it creates a too strong lower jaw effect. Otherwise unless there's something else about your face that's causing a problem, I can't see an issue. I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone to redo your bsso over a few mm, especially if your bite now works. These are generally good values.

Feel free to PM me links to your face photos if you want an opinion. I won't share obviously with anyone. Maybe you just need time to get used to your new face.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 11:07:16 AM by secondtimearound »

secondtimearound

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Re: Do people who favor the "Anteface" look aim for an abnormally high SNA/SNB?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2017, 11:22:15 AM »
For reference, here is a diagram which shows most of the major landmarks. You can see how SNA and SNB describe the position of the jaws relative to the base of the skull.



secondtimearound

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Re: Do people who favor the "Anteface" look aim for an abnormally high SNA/SNB?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2017, 11:24:13 AM »
This is in the Biodynamics analysis. Sagittal - Apical Base Position

SNA

Mean: 82
Standard Dev: 2
Myself: 81.03
Comment: none

SNB

Mean: 79
Standard Dev: 2
Myself: 81.97
Comment: Mandible protruded

ANB

Mean: 3
Standard Dev: 2
Myself: -0.94
Comment: Class III relationship

Your lower jaw is more protruded than maybe 70-80% of people.

Your upper jaw is slightly retruded compared to the statistical average but it's damn near perfect.

Can you post your Wits analysis? Search the pdf for wits. Also in general how is your bite?

Are you male or female?

If you're male I think these are quite good.

secondtimearound

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Re: Do people who favor the "Anteface" look aim for an abnormally high SNA/SNB?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2017, 11:35:43 AM »
Wow, this study confirms everything that I don't like about my results.

Occlusal Plane

Mean: 14
Standard Dev: 3
Myself: 5.67
Comment: closed occlusal plane

Nasolabial angle: 78

It sais my lips, my teeth, my mandible protrudes too much, my occlusal plane goes upwards!

Holy shit. Do you have a before ceph to get an analysis to compare with?

Unless you were already tilted like that the surgeon must have done mega CCW. Are you impacted on the upper jaw? How many mm of upper teeth are visible with your lips parted at rest?

Also male or female? I'm guessing female?

Lastly post your Wits as requested.