Author Topic: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?  (Read 14048 times)

Gregor Samsa

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2014, 01:20:02 PM »
Nope  :o

Edit: Granted I had already deposited money for the operation, even if it wasn't 100% locked in. So it wouldn't have made much sense to charge me for the consult and work-up

Don't be surprised if you get billed for that after your surgery. That's what happened to me with Mommaerts. I was actually billed around 1700 euro for the pre-op consultation (wtf).

Optimistic

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2014, 02:31:40 PM »
Don't be surprised if you get billed for that after your surgery. That's what happened to me with Mommaerts. I was actually billed around 1700 euro for the pre-op consultation (wtf).

What crap! Did you dispute it?
01/10/14 - Last night I spilt spaghetti sauce on my chin for the very first time in my life and cried.

Gregor Samsa

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2014, 02:36:27 PM »
What crap! Did you dispute it?

Yeah but they just kept sending new bills for random crap.

Optimistic

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 12:10:23 AM »
Yeah but they just kept sending new bills for random crap.

Was this before or after you said the result wasn't good enough?
01/10/14 - Last night I spilt spaghetti sauce on my chin for the very first time in my life and cried.

Gregor Samsa

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 03:10:26 AM »
Was this before or after you said the result wasn't good enough?

That's just standard praxis over there. They sent Modigliani a bill that was less than what the postage stamp is worth.  ;D

Optimistic

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2014, 03:29:28 AM »
That's just standard praxis over there. They sent Modigliani a bill that was less than what the postage stamp is worth.  ;D

LOL

Are there pics of it somewhere?
01/10/14 - Last night I spilt spaghetti sauce on my chin for the very first time in my life and cried.

Mark32

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2014, 10:58:01 AM »
You usually don't pay anything to the surgeon until you're close to the surgery but it could vary from surgeon to surgeon. The surgeon will instruct your orthodontist how to move the teeth though so if the surgery plan is not adequate then you could just be wasting your time and money on the orthodontic process or even worse, do something that is directly opposite of what you actually needed to have done in order to get the best result. I didn't know what the final surgery plan was until one week before the surgery and in some cases the surgeon will even change his mind once the surgery is underway (that actually happened to someone on this forum with a disastrous outcome).
i wonder would an orthodontist ever camouflage a jaw misalignment if the patient decided to back out of jaw surgery. sort of reverse what they'd previously done. say if the surgeon had instructed the orthodontist to decompensate the bite prior to surgery but the patient then felt they couldn't go through with the operation. would the ortho put the teeth back into their original alignment, or something close to it?


Quote from: Optimistic
During my consult I was given a couple hours to have scans done, photos taken, occlusion looked at, and then discuss everything in great detail. He sat down with me and let me go ask all the questions I wanted, showed me things on models, and discussed some of my options in terms of an aesthetic outcome based on some simulations. He also took lots of notes and asked me to come back again to think everything over and go through a surgical plan one final time. It didn't feel at all rushed.
That sounds like a superb approach. I would be quite happy to fork out good money for a consult like that. what is the software/programme they use for doing simulations of potential outcomes?

Gregor Samsa

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2014, 11:04:43 AM »
Keep in mind that those simulations are far from accurate and many surgeons don't use them for that reason since it just leads to false expectations. I've even seen many cases where the patient ended up looking better than the simulation so it goes both ways.

If you're at the point where you've had full decompensation them you might as well go through with the surgery and I doubt the orthodontist would recommend anything else.

Mark32

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2014, 11:25:09 AM »
are simulations often off the mark because, as someone was saying in another thread, the soft tissue response is a bit of a lottery? ??? this is where i find the process quite daunting as what your appearance will turn out like is a bit of an exercise in ‘hit and hope’, if you know what i mean. sure, i’d love to have my bite fixed but i’m somewhat afraid of the effect it will have on how i look. i mean, part of the motivation for doing this is to improve my appearance but i’m terrified things could end up worse. :(

Modigliani

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 12:06:18 PM »
Most people do end up improved though, even if it's not as much as they hoped.

ticktickatick

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2014, 12:44:31 PM »
I think the biggest difficulty is that you can't really see all of a surgeon's work. At least in the U.S. patient privacy is such that any surgical patient will get a form beforehand asking if they consent for their photos, models, and case info to be viewable by others. I imagine most people sign NO on that form. To even get a patient to sign YES the surgeon usually has to provide a free or reduced price surgery, so any case that the public gets to see was a teaching experiment or was handpicked to showcase something positive.

There are a lot of good, talented surgeons who have no public record of their work because they only do normal, paying patients...that's where word of mouth comes into play...but it's still so hard to make an accurate assessment.

ticktickatick

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2014, 12:46:54 PM »
On a related note I think the patient woman used in the Arnett/Gunson YouTube videos is terribly asymmetrical. I guess her main concern was opening up her airway so maybe they didn't even correct for that, but still. You'd think that isn't the face you want on 5 press videos. But maybe that's the only person they could get to do it.

OrthodontistExpert

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2014, 04:47:51 PM »
I find that there are two types of oral & maxillofacial surgeons in terms of qualifications.

Either they are predominately dentally trained and registered, or, they are predominantly medically trained and registered.

I only work with medically trained oral & maxillofacial surgeons, as they have a wide training base, and are most able and trained in all facets of surgery. "Dental" Oral & Maxillofacial surgeons tend to be very limited in the scope of their work & have a poor wider understanding of medical, radiological and generally of wider surgical care.

I know the dentists say they were trained in medicine as part of their surgery training... But so are hospital nurses. No medical doctor or medical oral & maxillas facial surgeon would claim equivalence with anti e who's basic training is in dentistry alone.

However, I also look for Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeons who have a wide and demonstrable experience of orthognathic (jaw correction) surgery. I look for expertise in basic operations, as well as experience in a wide range of operations... Just so I know that not all patients are offered one operation type because that is the limit of their training or experience.

What I mean to say is that there are many kinds of operations, and real expertise comes with knowing all of them, and maybe even using them all for treating one condition.

For instance a person might have a chin point 3cm short of ideal. A BSSO can only safely advance to 10mm, but some try 12 or 15mm only to have it "come back". A better surgeon would offer jaw distraction, of say 15mm, then later a BSSO advancement (whilst also advancing the upper jaw) of 10mm, then offer a genioplasty (chin) advancement of a stable 5 or so millimeters. That means the patient achieves an ideal overall distance of lower facial advancement, gets a perfect bite, gets a maximally open airway (so they never snore), and they have an ideal jaw line.

These surgeons are rare though.

You should always look for examples of their work... And don't accept cartoons, or maybe case presentations from books to explain process. Look for real proof that the surgeon is capable of excellent results, by using examples of their own real patients.

Remember that surgery is also an art. You wouldn't expect just any painter to have the eye of DaVinci.

Alue

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2014, 01:24:48 AM »
A BSSO can only safely advance to 10mm, but some try 12 or 15mm only to have it "come back".
Can you explain why this is?
What would you consider the maximum safe advancement for a lefort I or high lefort I in an adult patient. 

OrthodontistExpert

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Re: How do you even pick a surgeon in a semi-informed way?
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2014, 01:42:54 PM »
Can I explain why 10mm is a stable BSSO advancement? It's a predictability thing.
Let's say 20mm (which is impossible to achieve due to tissue stretch) is 100% unstable.
Unstable means it moves more than 1mm... Which is a large distance to a tooth.
5mm is very stable and would have 99% stability...
Between 5mm and 20mm is a scale of chance of instability... Between 1% and 100% chance that there is 1mm of movement.
The distances are even less for a LeFort advancement. And the maximum advancement distance for a maxilla is 12mm. But the risks are quite large. And the instability chance approaches 50% after 5mm.

Move the TV away from the wall too far... And you pull the socket out