Author Topic: LeFort 2 / 3 -> Malar osteotomy  (Read 41172 times)

Rico

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LeFort 2 / 3 -> Malar osteotomy
« on: December 24, 2014, 06:24:48 PM »
Is it true that malar osteotomy should be performed by only surgeons with Lefort 2 and 3 experience?
and at the same time is it true, that Lefort3 can do not many surgeons . I mean not many has got enough good experience to do that ?

What you think ?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 05:13:17 AM by Rico :) »

Lazlo

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2014, 11:20:31 PM »
yup, they do.

Rico

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2014, 12:01:44 PM »
yup, they do.

I appreciate you answered. But your message is not clear for me. :)

Lazlo

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2014, 02:11:46 PM »
We really have to stop this nonsense about LeFort3. 99 percent of maxillofacial surgeons have never done this surgery. The ones that have do it on children with major deformities like alperts etc. Now we've somehow found like the three surgeons who do upper face surgeries for plastic surgery cases. I would never get my malar or zygoma moved from a surgeon who didn't also know how to mobilize the orbital rim. No matter who is doing it it's still in a very experimental stage.

Rico

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2014, 04:00:05 PM »
Interesting, but I met 2 surgeons who do all LeForts (and some similar) even on adults (as they claim)
and I do not understand the part about orbital rim ?  orbital rim is a part of whole zygomatic complex, it is always moved a bit during such operation. The crucial thing here is to move the malar bone in such way which will not affect the orbital volume. ..so how can you seperate orbital rim from whole zygoma bone ????

Can you explain in more details your point of view. It's interestng and it seems like you know something about malar bone repositions

PloskoPlus

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2014, 04:01:59 PM »
We really have to stop this nonsense about LeFort3. 99 percent of maxillofacial surgeons have never done this surgery. The ones that have do it on children with major deformities like alperts etc. Now we've somehow found like the three surgeons who do upper face surgeries for plastic surgery cases. I would never get my malar or zygoma moved from a surgeon who didn't also know how to mobilize the orbital rim. No matter who is doing it it's still in a very experimental stage.

Well I consulted with 2 such surgeons in my city. Although one said he did "less than 5" which is probably a code word for 1.  He did show me the case however (cut under the eye, non-coronal incision). Pretty impressive (given the starting point).

Le Fort IIIs are not the white unicorns you'd think they are.  People fracture eye sockets all the time (fights, accidents).
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 05:40:40 PM by PloskoPlus »

Rico

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2014, 04:11:45 PM »
yes but a fracture means the bone is mobilized already and  a surgeon sees exactly or almost exactly how this bone was set originally...it is kinda track /path  / hint for a surgeon. In many cases surgoen even can do so called closed reduction  - which is not invasive method. but only for simple fractures

to cut the bone and move it is much harder ..much harder to do it in safe way without damaging other things..Crucial thing here is whole eye-socket

I forgot to ask how many such cases they had.. but I think there is no sense, because they may not tell me the truth :) This is kinda silly question

BTW --- Is this interesting ?  I got one publication from clinic in Dreseden (Germany)

My question:
Quote
First of all (if You can answer) Have the surgeons had such cases  before ?. I mean Do they have good experience with malar bone osteotomy (upper maxilla) and infraorbital nerve decompression ?

as an answer I got this:
http://bergemsoft.home.pl/pub/temp/LauerPradel2006.pdf

What you think ?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 05:07:06 PM by Rico :) »

Lazlo

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2014, 08:54:07 PM »
Listen Mommaerts moves the malar complex cutting under the orbital rim with his stupid zygomatic sandwich technique. Keller does a "quadrangular lefort 1" which includes part of the zygoma. But neither of these cuts move the crucial orbital rim which is needed to be moved forward. And I've seen TONS of examples on syndrome patients. To throw tact out the window, they still look f**ked. In other words, to perform such an operation that actually improves one's looks aesthetically if you're starting from a regular starting point (i.e. class i or class iii) is very difficult. If anything TWO cuts need to be made, one for the the lefort I to get the dentition and bite correct, and then a separate cut that is basically just a part of the lefort III to move both the orbital rim and the malar. This is basically what the OBswegger girl had done --two maxillary cuts. Now assuming that's the way to go, who has experience actually doing this? Well, almost no one. Surgeons who claim to have don it, usually means they did it on a cadaver with a team in medschool, or assisted on some example case with a senior surgeon. Actually having it as a regular part of your practice is almost nill. Schendel who probably has more experience than ANYONE save for Arnett (who has never done it by the way) --well Schendel told me he has don it three times and this is a guy who has done over 2000 jaw surgeries and countless other craniofacial operations. So listen, when you're dealing with the zygoma, orbital rim or anything above a lefort I, you are going into uncharted territory. Be warned. Even Earl's operation, it was a first time for Sinn doing a cut like that. It was an experiment for him and luckily it turned out okay. If you wanna do it, just know you're in the 99th percentile of "far out" surgeries.

PloskoPlus

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2014, 09:19:34 PM »
You know I don't think Schendel is any kind of benchmark of anything at all around here.

Rico

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2014, 04:30:43 AM »
Listen Mommaerts moves the malar complex cutting under the orbital rim with his stupid zygomatic sandwich technique. Keller does a "quadrangular lefort 1" which includes part of the zygoma. But neither of these cuts move the crucial orbital rim which is needed to be moved forward. And I've seen TONS of examples on syndrome patients. To throw tact out the window, they still look f**ked. In other words, to perform such an operation that actually improves one's looks aesthetically if you're starting from a regular starting point (i.e. class i or class iii) is very difficult. If anything TWO cuts need to be made, one for the the lefort I to get the dentition and bite correct, and then a separate cut that is basically just a part of the lefort III to move both the orbital rim and the malar. This is basically what the OBswegger girl had done --two maxillary cuts. Now assuming that's the way to go, who has experience actually doing this? Well, almost no one. Surgeons who claim to have don it, usually means they did it on a cadaver with a team in medschool, or assisted on some example case with a senior surgeon. Actually having it as a regular part of your practice is almost nill. Schendel who probably has more experience than ANYONE save for Arnett (who has never done it by the way) --well Schendel told me he has don it three times and this is a guy who has done over 2000 jaw surgeries and countless other craniofacial operations. So listen, when you're dealing with the zygoma, orbital rim or anything above a lefort I, you are going into uncharted territory. Be warned. Even Earl's operation, it was a first time for Sinn doing a cut like that. It was an experiment for him and luckily it turned out okay. If you wanna do it, just know you're in the 99th percentile of "far out" surgeries.

I'm careful to the point of agony :( However, are you telling me that there is no patients who had overlooked typical malar - tripod fracture with mild displacement or just improperly set during first surgery, who needs revision / redo ? and the best surgeons performed such surgery upon no more than 5 cases ?  how it is possible ? Such patients are rather minority , but having milions people it can't be just a several cases for 20 years over the world ??? How can you explain this ?

Update: I've realised, in the malar bone reposition surgery, good experience in both LeFort 2 and 3 is required.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 05:41:11 AM by Rico :) »

Gregor Samsa

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2014, 06:17:24 AM »
And I've seen TONS of examples on syndrome patients. To throw tact out the window, they still look f**ked.

What about non-syndrome patients? Is it really necessary to advance the orbital rim in those cases as well? Many people here may have a weak midface, but I haven't seen anyone with bulging eyes.

Rico

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Re: LeFort 2 / 3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2014, 09:59:17 AM »
What does it means to advance orbital rim.? How can malar bone be mobilized without cutting the orbital rim ?

Lazlo

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2014, 12:01:15 PM »
What about non-syndrome patients? Is it really necessary to advance the orbital rim in those cases as well? Many people here may have a weak midface, but I haven't seen anyone with bulging eyes.

No it's obviously not NECESSARY. We're talking about aesthetics. How many patients do you think have had just a textbook lefort 1 and are NOT satisfied with the aesthetic outcome.

Oh and I know Schendel's work VERY well. Say what you want but he's considered a giant in the field. Even though we may both know patients who have not liked their outcome with him, he has patents on devices for jaw surgery h invented as well as techniques that bare his name. So don't be silly, the guy has done craniofacial surgery on babies who were born without a nose and reshaping ear cartiledge to reconstruct one. Our friends may not have liked their outcome, but if you're denying the guy is experienced, that's a laugh, he's one of the most experienced surgeons in the world.

And even Arnett, who if you deny his experience I'm gonna really laugh you out the door, told me personally, higher level lefort's and malar advancements are not stable, highly unpredictable and resorb, which is why we don't do them. So there you go from the horse's mouth.

Jesus why are you guys arguing with me on this? Ask the surgeons. How many times have you done an orbital rim advancement or a lefort III or even a II for purely AESTHETIC PURPOSES on a non-syndrome, non-accident case? Right now th ONLY people are those I can count on 1 hand Obswegger, Keller, that's it. These examples of peopel who have fractures don't count. In many cases all that was done was to reposition a bit of broken bone so it would hal and they're calling it a lefort II or whatever. No that was an accident, patient had no choice and the doctor just did the best they could.




Gregor Samsa

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2014, 01:24:05 PM »
No it's obviously not NECESSARY. We're talking about aesthetics.

Necessary to achieve the best aesthetical result that is.

Lazlo

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Re: LeFort3 -> Malar osteotomy
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2014, 01:27:19 PM »
Necessary to achieve the best aesthetical result that is.

well not necessarily, does the patient have a negative vector under the eye? Shallow orbital rims? Then NO. But most of the time a shallow orbital rim is part and parcel of a shallow cheekbone, but not always.