opinion on Dr. Weston's research

[earl25]

Recently I read a post on a health board about a mother of 4 who was ranting how upset she is because she didn't give her kids cod liver oil and now they have jaw/dental issues. The strange thing is she said she followed his other advice , no fluoride water, tons of grass fed butter and whole milk, liver etc. The only thing she didn't do is the cod liver oil. I have a hard time believing that the cod liver oil was the missing link. I mean she did EVERYTHING else he said and your telling me that translated into nothing?

Also all the models born post 1960 grew up on the same garbage diet/ food that the rest of us did, how come they didn't have these problems? some of them didn't even eat as kids because they wanted to stay skinny, yet they don't have jaw/cranio prroblems.

also he said in his papers that he analyzed the nutrients in the food, how exactly in the 20's-30's did he do that? did they even have the equipment/technology to check this

[PloskoPlus]

It's all genetics.  All of it.

[Gregor Samsa]

I don't think humans should consume dairy products at all. Advocating a high dairy consumption is not sound dietary advice and I fail to see how his studies of African natives could lead to this recommendation. I personally consumed a copious amount of whole milk a day while growing up and now I'm the only one in the entire family who has skeletal anomalies. That may very well be a coincidence but I can't help but feel that my high intake of dairy products might be the culprit. There are plenty of studies that show the detrimental effects that milk have on your body and the bones in particular. I don't think Weston A Price's research holds up but I'd be very interested in seeing a proper study on people who follow a strict paleolithic diet.

Also all the models born post 1960 grew up on the same garbage diet/ food that the rest of us did, how come they didn't have these problems? some of them didn't even eat as kids because they wanted to stay skinny, yet they don't have jaw/cranio prroblems.

I think this mostly comes down to genetics but I don't know how exactly that genetic advantage is played out. It could just be that some people have a higher tolerance to "bad" food than others. I mean, why do some people who eat like pigs never get acne while others have to stay on a really strict diet to avoid it? It could be the same thing with craniofacial deformities.

[terry947]

I wouldn't say it's all genetics. It's pre natal nutrition plus once the kid is born it's about maintaining tongue posture and nasal breathing. Genetics matter for random facial features. in a perfect world your genes should fully express themselves, in our world that's not the case.

@gregor- what do you men by skeletal anomalies?

[MrFox]

Two years ago I read a post on some health forum from a mother that had started giving her daughter fermented cod liver oil and high vitamin butter oil. She claimed in a year that her daughter's narrow jaw grew wider, I can't remember if she said more foward as well or not.
Oh also this might have been a blog but this crazy mother was posting pictures of her babies, one hadn't been fed the Weston Price stuff and the other two had. The two Weston fed ones did have much wider faces but it seems pretty sick to experiment on your children like that and send their photograps to the internet.

It's hard to believe that consuming that stuff can effect your bone structure in such a profound way, maybe all these posts by "mothers" are clever marketing from greenpasture.org lol.

Gregor what have you heard about dairy's negative effects on bone? The farmer's son where I go for milk is hot.

[Lazlo]

Earl, I've read a ton about Dr. Weston's research. A few books by doctors etc. who claim to be Weston Price advocates etc..

Here's what I've ascertained. Price, who did a study of societies such as the Massai tribe and other indigenous people living on traditional diets found a very low instance of dental decay in these groups. This is a fact. It's processed sugar, and especially processed carbohydrates that lead to dental carries. He also noted better arch formation and jaw formation in these people. Okay, now as others mentioned, pre-natal health etc. counts for a lot here. Even in India where the village he studied was vegetarian, they were eating wheat that had been specially harvested from mineral rich soil, was prepared by first soaking and roasting it etc. to rid it of various gut leaking properties (gut health is very important to the Price ethos), etc..

Now evolutionarily it is true that the human jaw has been getting smaller, and whether this parallels the move from pre-agrarian to post-agrarian diets is not completely conclusive, but even one generation CAN make a difference as epigeneticists are now demonstrating to us. I've been to a remote village in both Africa and India where people were relatively isolated and had been for centuries and were eating traditional diets and their dental health and facial formation was one the whole superior to what you'd find in a western city. That said, I think it's already a bit too late once you've had the kid, the nutrition needs to star pre-natally, and probably have been there for a few generations so that it has really influenced the genes. Also, you'd need to eliminate all processed foods to truly test this experiment.

Again, I agree, there are male models who grew up eating s**t, though they probably have tons of cavities and stuff --but again there are genetic freaks who have certain PH balances to their saliva that aggressively prevent cavities no matter way.

For general dental health I think the Weston Price protocol is the best diet: bone broth, no processed foods, no sugar, all natural and naturally prepared foods. Nothing out of a box or a package. But it's not gonna change the shape of your jaw. It will however probably resist you from developing all sorts of other diseases as well as keep your teeth strong and your gums healthy.

[Gregor Samsa]

@gregor- what do you men by skeletal anomalies?

Class III jaws, midface hypoplasia etc.

Gregor what have you heard about dairy's negative effects on bone?

http://saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/

I'm not sure how good of a source this website is but it does cite a number of scientific studies.

[notrain]

All those tribes isolated from society - like their prehistoric counterparts - have means in place to cull their weak. Since they don't use birth control, their women basically get one kid after another, so in order to keep their population stable, they have certain customs/rituals in place to prevent overgrowth of their tribe. Namely, the weak, sick, deformed, retarded or otherwise unfit infants either don't survive because of the lack of medical care or because the tribe shaman drowns them in the river as a sacrifice for the local deity. Another way this is done is for instance to have some sort of coming of age ritual where all preubescent boys have to survive on their own for a week in the wild - many of whom won't return.

So looking at the adults in those tribes introduces a strong selection bias towards the healthy and fit, because you don't get to even see the unfit part of the tribal population (it's dead). This is in stark contrast to a modern western society with a infant mortality rate of less then .01% where basically everyone lives to the age of 75-82 and introduces their s**tty genetic legacy into the genepool. Even if your parents don't have jaw and or craniofacial issues, that is not a guarantee that the propensity for it isn't in your genes as such things can easily skip a generation.

In other words, nutrition has f**k all to do with it. If that were the case, almost everyone in ethopia, somalia, burkina faso or darfur would be a lefort III candidate.

[Alue]

Again, I agree, there are male models who grew up eating s**t, though they probably have tons of cavities and stuff --but again there are genetic freaks who have certain PH balances to their saliva that aggressively prevent cavities no matter way.

Actually, producing a lot of saliva constantly is the body's best way of preventing tooth decay.  There are benefits to being drooly. 

[Balanced]

All those tribes isolated from society - like their prehistoric counterparts - have means in place to cull their weak. Since they don't use birth control, their women basically get one kid after another, so in order to keep their population stable, they have certain customs/rituals in place to prevent overgrowth of their tribe. Namely, the weak, sick, deformed, retarded or otherwise unfit infants either don't survive because of the lack of medical care or because the tribe shaman drowns them in the river as a sacrifice for the local deity. Another way this is done is for instance to have some sort of coming of age ritual where all preubescent boys have to survive on their own for a week in the wild - many of whom won't return.

So looking at the adults in those tribes introduces a strong selection bias towards the healthy and fit, because you don't get to even see the unfit part of the tribal population (it's dead). This is in stark contrast to a modern western society with a infant mortality rate of less then .01% where basically everyone lives to the age of 75-82 and introduces their s**tty genetic legacy into the genepool. Even if your parents don't have jaw and or craniofacial issues, that is not a guarantee that the propensity for it isn't in your genes as such things can easily skip a generation.

In other words, nutrition has f**k all to do with it. If that were the case, almost everyone in ethopia, somalia, burkina faso or darfur would be a lefort III candidate.

I have tended to agree with this.

[earl25]

All those tribes isolated from society - like their prehistoric counterparts - have means in place to cull their weak. Since they don't use birth control, their women basically get one kid after another, so in order to keep their population stable, they have certain customs/rituals in place to prevent overgrowth of their tribe. Namely, the weak, sick, deformed, retarded or otherwise unfit infants either don't survive because of the lack of medical care or because the tribe shaman drowns them in the river as a sacrifice for the local deity. Another way this is done is for instance to have some sort of coming of age ritual where all preubescent boys have to survive on their own for a week in the wild - many of whom won't return.

So looking at the adults in those tribes introduces a strong selection bias towards the healthy and fit, because you don't get to even see the unfit part of the tribal population (it's dead). This is in stark contrast to a modern western society with a infant mortality rate of less then .01% where basically everyone lives to the age of 75-82 and introduces their s**tty genetic legacy into the genepool. Even if your parents don't have jaw and or craniofacial issues, that is not a guarantee that the propensity for it isn't in your genes as such things can easily skip a generation.

In other words, nutrition has f**k all to do with it. If that were the case, almost everyone in ethopia, somalia, burkina faso or darfur would be a lefort III candidate.

I feel dumb, I didn't even think of that. that also makes sense. Also when I see pictures(paintings) of Europeans from pre 1800 , I still see plenty of midface issues/ abnormalities. I don't think they even had processed foods back then.

[Gregor Samsa]

I feel dumb, I didn't even think of that. that also makes sense. Also when I see pictures(paintings) of Europeans from pre 1800 , I still see plenty of midface issues/ abnormalities. I don't think they even had processed foods back then.

European royalty had a lot of problems with inbreeding back in the days. Try searching on google for "habsburg jaw" for example.

Here's another take on things that claim that how we breastfeed (or don't) at a young age is linked to how the jaws develop: http://robbwolf.com/2013/08/29/dentistry-harmony-nature/

[earl25]

European royalty had a lot of problems with inbreeding back in the days. Try searching on google for "habsburg jaw" for example.

I'd imagine in tribal communities they would also have a lot of inbreeding

[Gregor Samsa]

All those tribes isolated from society - like their prehistoric counterparts - have means in place to cull their weak. Since they don't use birth control, their women basically get one kid after another, so in order to keep their population stable, they have certain customs/rituals in place to prevent overgrowth of their tribe. Namely, the weak, sick, deformed, retarded or otherwise unfit infants either don't survive because of the lack of medical care or because the tribe shaman drowns them in the river as a sacrifice for the local deity. Another way this is done is for instance to have some sort of coming of age ritual where all preubescent boys have to survive on their own for a week in the wild - many of whom won't return.

So looking at the adults in those tribes introduces a strong selection bias towards the healthy and fit, because you don't get to even see the unfit part of the tribal population (it's dead). This is in stark contrast to a modern western society with a infant mortality rate of less then .01% where basically everyone lives to the age of 75-82 and introduces their s**tty genetic legacy into the genepool. Even if your parents don't have jaw and or craniofacial issues, that is not a guarantee that the propensity for it isn't in your genes as such things can easily skip a generation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't find any proof that such a selection bias existed back in the paleolithic age. It is true that infant mortality rates were really high back then and stuff like getting a serious injury or an infection pretty much meant you were dead, but that doesn't prove that a majority of those who died before adulthood were genetically inferior to those who lived to spread on their genes.

I'd imagine in tribal communities they would also have a lot of inbreeding

I've wondered about that. Maybe they had enough experience to know to only breed with people from other villages. It seems like something they would've found out the hard way.

[terry947]

@ Gregor. I was breast fed for a year and my jaw is still messed up, I also come from a family of Europeans that grew up on farms and ate healthy food.  But  when I was a kid My jaws were fiine then as I grew older I started to breathe through my mouth, have a low tongue posture and kept my mouth open all the time. Eventually things started to regress. No one in my family has jaw issues or cranio facial issues. Just me. I believe that environment has a HUGE role in development and nutrition has a role in pre natal development.