Author Topic: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients  (Read 48858 times)

PloskoPlus

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2015, 02:25:40 PM »
I'm not hostile. It's just that there are a lot of lookism.net people on this forum making claims, but then not backing them up with evidence. All I'm saying is that CT-Bone as a material is resorbable. Bone cells can colonise its structure and it can eventually become like living bone. If this isn't true, then why would surgeons consider making implants for children out of it?
This stuff sounds just like HA paste.  And doctors do routinely use HA paste in paediatric craniofacial surgery.  I've been told by doctors that "it become part of you".  How genuine that claim is, I don't know.  Fully replaced with your own bone? Or do they make the  claim purely off the fact that there is vascularisation and the ingrowth at the boundary between HA paste and your skull?  No idea.

molestrip

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2015, 12:00:18 AM »
Not all HA is the same. It comes in block or granular form, resorbable and non-resorbable, and in different sizes. Looks like it still needs a few screws to attach it to the skeleton and resorbable sutures. It's pretty good but bony ingrowth is still going to take a few months. What's significant about this product is that it's pretty much at market. However, if you can hold out 3 more years then epibone will be ready with a vascularized graft. We'll have to see in pricing. Hopefully Tetranite will appear about the same time so fixation will disappear too. Allow a few more years for them to refine the technologies and because you don't want to be the first one to have experimental technology in you but yeah in 5-10 years, bony augmentations looks real good!

overbiter

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2015, 02:40:21 AM »
This stuff sounds just like HA paste.  And doctors do routinely use HA paste in paediatric craniofacial surgery.  I've been told by doctors that "it become part of you".  How genuine that claim is, I don't know.  Fully replaced with your own bone? Or do they make the  claim purely off the fact that there is vascularisation and the ingrowth at the boundary between HA paste and your skull?  No idea.

I keep telling people this is not HA paste, but what the hell, think what you want. Just don't misinform people.

overbiter

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2015, 02:50:28 AM »
However, if you can hold out 3 more years then epibone will be ready with a vascularized graft.

The Epibone product doesn't use 3D printing. They use a graft taken from an animal, then seed it with the patients own cells. The implant is shaped on a machine that looks like a lathe, only it is more primitive. It just chisels the bone, it doesn't turn it. Epibone is in the dark ages compared to a 3D printed custom implant. Anyway the implants that could be fashioned using that technology would be tiny, and hardly worth implanting in my opinion.

Xilloc's implants could be improved by seeding them with stem cells. I'm sure they will do this in future, however they do not need to do this to make their product work. So many people on this forum don't understand how good their technology is, and don't understand the relevance of it. I almost regret starting this thread. It's just pearls before swine.

PloskoPlus

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2015, 04:36:30 AM »
I keep telling people this is not HA paste, but what the hell, think what you want. Just don't misinform people.
It's not a paste, but it's still just HA at the end of the day.  They are not a "miracle material" company, they are just a 3D printing company.  They will print you an implant out of anything you want.

overbiter

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2015, 06:03:55 AM »
It's not a paste, but it's still just HA at the end of the day.  They are not a "miracle material" company, they are just a 3D printing company.  They will print you an implant out of anything you want.

They didn't even invent the material. I never said they did. It was invented by Next21 a Japanese company. Xilloc are not about the material.

HA is in general not resorbable. CT-Bone is resorbable, that is the difference, as I have been trying to point out. Technologically speaking it is pretty miraculous as it is light years ahead of anything that has been used before. Maybe you think a 3D printed CT-Bone implant (which is resorbable) is equivalent to a surgeon spreading crystallised HA paste on someones bones on the operating table, but you are dead wrong. A perfectly shaped implant beats useless HA paste hands down. There is no argument. To try to argue the point is foolish in the extreme.

molestrip

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2015, 02:33:01 PM »
If the cost is cheap enough and it is strong enough, I wonder whether it can be used in the osteotomies too? Surgeon designing cuts using 3d planning now anyway, would it be a stretch to ask Xilloc to print structural grafts for these locations too? Then you just need a binder to hold it in place while bone heals.

I agree with @overbiter, a perfectly shaped implant is just a revolution in this domain. There are other companies which do this already, of course, but not with a resorbable scaffold to my knowledge. I get the impression the "perfectly shaped" is still a work in progress, though, given the difficulty with soft tissue modeling.

@overbiter How did you glean that info about epibone? I had trouble finding out much about it. Why do you say "dark ages"? Do you mean in terms of how mature the product is? The big gain I see is that you don't have to wait for bone to form after implantation in the body. That's less time for infection, greater guarantee of resorption, reduced risk of rejection, etc I just don't know how they stimulate the bone segments to grow into each other and wonder how the vascular systems connect. My speculative mental model has always been that blood vessels grow in clots and then bone forms around it. Once the bone is already formed, well I don't see how that works or at least not well. But living bone with cells from your own body seems like a good thing.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:05:40 PM by molestrip »

Rico

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2015, 04:37:21 PM »
how they put the nerves through those implants ?

overbiter

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2015, 10:40:03 AM »
If the cost is cheap enough and it is strong enough, I wonder whether it can be used in the osteotomies too? Surgeon designing cuts using 3d planning now anyway, would it be a stretch to ask Xilloc to print structural grafts for these locations too? Then you just need a binder to hold it in place while bone heals.

Maybe, but I don't think implants would be required for most osteotomies. What surgeons really need is a way to keep the bleeding under control, so that the post surgery hematoma doesn't grow too large. That way the bone callous that forms will be more aesthetically shaped, and patients won't have jawline deformities. Perhaps someone can invent a scaffold to soak up the blood, and that dissolves after a few days. Then the bone can heal in the correct shape.

@overbiter How did you glean that info about epibone? I had trouble finding out much about it. Why do you say "dark ages"? Do you mean in terms of how mature the product is? The big gain I see is that you don't have to wait for bone to form after implantation in the body. That's less time for infection, greater guarantee of resorption, reduced risk of rejection, etc I just don't know how they stimulate the bone segments to grow into each other and wonder how the vascular systems connect. My speculative mental model has always been that blood vessels grow in clots and then bone forms around it. Once the bone is already formed, well I don't see how that works or at least not well. But living bone with cells from your own body seems like a good thing.

I watched the video on their website. It seems like they are just cutting animal bone to make a graft, stripping the animal cells, and then adding stem cells from a patient. This technology is in the dark ages compared to Xilloc because they are basically just carving up tiny pieces of bone, and not creating perfectly shaped implants that can be of any size required. They seem to be many years away from creating anything implantable in a patient. To be honest, I very much doubt whether they will ever produce a commercial product because 3D printed scaffolds seeded with stem cells will be available soon. Epibone will be dead on arrival.

I've alway thought that because the body can remould bones, that new vascular systems can just grow through them as required. I don't have any medical training though, so I have no idea if this is true. It would be interesting to find out from a doctor.

overbiter

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2015, 10:41:49 AM »
how they put the nerves through those implants ?

Xilloc create openings in their implants for blood vessels and nerves. The surgeons utilise those spaces.

Hewzo

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2015, 06:19:19 PM »
Nice thanks for the reply. I think 10k euro is fine as long as the results are good and not fake looking.

Wow you really aren't hurting for money if you consider 10k for a 3D printed calcium block "fine".

10k in total, surgical expenses included would be understandable since it's new tech.

overbiter

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2015, 12:12:45 PM »
Wow you really aren't hurting for money if you consider 10k for a 3D printed calcium block "fine".

10k in total, surgical expenses included would be understandable since it's new tech.

It's not just a calcium block. There's a lot of technology and expertise that goes into creating the implants. Xilloc need to make money as well.

It seems like surgery using these implants could be pricey, but if paying more money up front means you get the right result it is worth it imo. Think about all the people who had malar osteotomies and weren't pleased with the results. That is all money down the drain.

mike888miller

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2015, 08:35:08 AM »
did you ask the company which doctors they are working with on this? if they plan the fda. process for 2016, they will have had to already select 2 accredited us doctors to work with. you can probably get a discount if you sign up now.

boyo

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2015, 01:59:02 PM »
It's not just a calcium block. There's a lot of technology and expertise that goes into creating the implants. Xilloc need to make money as well.

It seems like surgery using these implants could be pricey, but if paying more money up front means you get the right result it is worth it imo. Think about all the people who had malar osteotomies and weren't pleased with the results. That is all money down the drain.

Do you think using CT-bone on the zygomatic bone could give good results seeing how this implant technology supposedly acts with the surrounding tissue? Silicon implants, especially placed on the zygomatic arch looks like s**t which i think is caused by the surrounding muscles and tissue not being able to "settle" with the implant. Thoughts on this?

Optimistic

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Re: 3D Printed Bone Implants Are Now Available For Patients
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2015, 12:11:08 AM »
Do you think using CT-bone on the zygomatic bone could give good results seeing how this implant technology supposedly acts with the surrounding tissue? Silicon implants, especially placed on the zygomatic arch looks like s**t which i think is caused by the surrounding muscles and tissue not being able to "settle" with the implant. Thoughts on this?

This is what I'd like to know. My choice is between a modified le fort III and some kind of implant.
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