Author Topic: any of you tried fat????  (Read 15327 times)

jusken

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2016, 09:45:03 PM »
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interesting tip about needing the filler injected UNDER the muscle for good undereye results! thanks a  lot for that.

let us know if you find some really good people to get fillings with! But yes, I like the idea of fat grafting and i like that raffaini is a max fac so he knows where and what to do for jaw surgery patients.

Okay, I've heard this under the muscle thing a lot now and I'm not sure what I think about it...

Logically, you want the fat/volume exactly where it's missing.  I think the majority of youthful soft volume is above the muscle, right?  I've only done a bit of research on this, so I'm not even sure if fat naturally resides under the muscle.  However, from the research I have done, I can tell you that in a healthy young person fat is superficially all around the eye (even behind it - that's what helps position the eye).  A person with very little fat around the orbit (like myself) will have a more recessed orbit as well. 

So, in short, I've heard a lot of doctors talk about different injection placement to get safe results, but I think the ONLY thing that matters to me is where the fat is SUPPOSED to be.  If it isn't possible to safely inject fat where it's supposed to be, I'm going to have to wait.

Honestly, I think a lot of people get unnatural results because we're treating WAY less than the whole picture a lot of times (which equates to too much volume in the wrong/isolated places).  Filler treatments are like bailing water out of a sinking battleship with a bucket in a lot of cases.  So don't expect perfection and under correct!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 10:07:56 PM by jusken »

A-V-P

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2017, 01:00:29 PM »
fat

I had an operation with Dr Marten.... My before jaw picture looked as good as the "after" pic or better and my after picture looks worse than the "before" picture.
You can see pictures on yelp...
Here is what Dr Timothy J Marten MD of marten clinic of plastic surgery did to me and something more:
https://imgur.com/a/JdEFR

https://timothyjmartenplasticsurgeonbadexperience.wordpress.com/blog/

https://bad-experience-timothy-marten-md.tumblr.com/

Lazlo

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2017, 02:56:34 PM »
I had an operation with Dr Marten.... My before jaw picture looked as good as the "after" pic or better and my after picture looks worse than the "before" picture.
You can see pictures on yelp...
Can you post the pics here?

PopThemPills

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2017, 08:05:36 PM »
I think some surgeons do have different techniques for how the fat is placed.   Some have guarded those techniques.  Most of the reports I have seen is that when it is done properly that almost always more than 50% survives and typically 60-70 % or so.  Ultimately,  it is likely still an art form in many ways.
50% survival over what time period? One thing I've been wondering about, is if virtually 100% always dissipates, but for some people it takes 6 months, and for some it takes 60 months.

Bobbit

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2017, 09:30:02 PM »
50% survival over what time period? One thing I've been wondering about, is if virtually 100% always dissipates, but for some people it takes 6 months, and for some it takes 60 months.

Once the cells survive the transplant and begin to divide reproduce and die in the manner consistent with normal metabolism - -  then they are retained indefinitely.   The cell volume loss is because a certain fraction of the transplanted cells do not survive the initial trauma of the transplant. 

This is why fat grafting is hugely better than injectables that ALWAYS are dissipated over time.

The good surgeons will put in an amount of excess fat cells that experience teaches them will result in a final survival fraction that is "good" but not excessive.   Then  9 months or a year later after the partial re-sorbtion has run its course - - then if the results are just short of optimal,  they can be "trimmed" up as the patient might desire.

That is one reason that after initial fat grafting some patients look like they have "too much".   But if done right,  the re-sorption results in "just right" or slightly less than "just right" volume.

The trick is to NOT over do it.   MUCH easier to "add more"  than to try to take out "too much".



Lazlo

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2017, 10:08:29 PM »
Once the cells survive the transplant and begin to divide reproduce and die in the manner consistent with normal metabolism - -  then they are retained indefinitely.   The cell volume loss is because a certain fraction of the transplanted cells do not survive the initial trauma of the transplant. 

This is why fat grafting is hugely better than injectables that ALWAYS are dissipated over time.

The good surgeons will put in an amount of excess fat cells that experience teaches them will result in a final survival fraction that is "good" but not excessive.   Then  9 months or a year later after the partial re-sorbtion has run its course - - then if the results are just short of optimal,  they can be "trimmed" up as the patient might desire.

That is one reason that after initial fat grafting some patients look like they have "too much".   But if done right,  the re-sorption results in "just right" or slightly less than "just right" volume.

The trick is to NOT over do it.   MUCH easier to "add more"  than to try to take out "too much".

Who are the best doctors for this?

girl

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2017, 01:53:03 AM »
Just don't do it. Body fat in the face is a terrible idea - your body will attack it and it'll harden.

Bobbit

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2017, 09:01:03 AM »
Just don't do it. Body fat in the face is a terrible idea - your body will attack it and it'll harden.

Do you have a reference to a peer reviewed paper that says the body attacks its own fat in facial fat grafts and hardens that tissue?

If you do,  it would be interesting,  in as much as there are at least 10's (maybe 100's) of thousands of patients who have had fat grafting to their faces - - with long term good results.  In addition, that process has improved with better technology over the last 5 to 10 years.


stupidjaws

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2017, 10:29:12 AM »
fat grafting sucks

Bobbit

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2017, 02:44:01 PM »
fat grafting sucks

Is that an opinion,  or a statement of fact?

If it is a statement of fact,  then please explain the factual basis that supports the statement ?

Lord-of-the-Cartilage

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2017, 02:53:37 PM »
It has its place but can't be used a substitute for bone or it will look off, especially in men.

When I talked to a surgeon about orbital rim implants, she said that as my skin is thin and I have no fat in that area, it would be a good idea to graft some fat over the implants to blend them in or something along those lines. That is an instance where fat grafting could be useful.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 03:02:31 PM by Lord-of-the-Cartilage »
Harvest, Harvest, Wherever You May Be; I Am the Lord of the Cartilage, Said He.

girl

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2017, 05:00:34 PM »
Do you have a reference to a peer reviewed paper that says the body attacks its own fat in facial fat grafts and hardens that tissue?

If you do,  it would be interesting,  in as much as there are at least 10's (maybe 100's) of thousands of patients who have had fat grafting to their faces - - with long term good results.  In addition, that process has improved with better technology over the last 5 to 10 years.

I have a few:
Delayed lipogranuloma of the cheek following autologous fat injection: report of 2 cases
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4203268/

Periorbital Lipogranuloma after Autologous Fat Injection for Forehead Augmentation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4828391/

Sepsis with multiple abscesses after massive autologous fat grafting for augmentation mammoplasty: a case report.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057949

Mycobacterium conceptionense infection
complicating face rejuvenation with fat grafting http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jmm/60/3/371.pdf?expires=1486084422&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=5CB10EC6947DF3292EEEA0B883818690

I have at least 10-15 articles saved. The infections are the worst; you will end up severely disfigured, permanently, if you get an infection after fat grafting.

Most of the complication-related articles are coming from Korea. The lipogranulomas are very hard, cyst-like masses under the skin that cause chronic swelling.

earl25

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2017, 06:32:03 PM »
I have a few:
Delayed lipogranuloma of the cheek following autologous fat injection: report of 2 cases
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4203268/

Periorbital Lipogranuloma after Autologous Fat Injection for Forehead Augmentation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4828391/

Sepsis with multiple abscesses after massive autologous fat grafting for augmentation mammoplasty: a case report.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057949

Mycobacterium conceptionense infection
complicating face rejuvenation with fat grafting http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jmm/60/3/371.pdf?expires=1486084422&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=5CB10EC6947DF3292EEEA0B883818690

I have at least 10-15 articles saved. The infections are the worst; you will end up severely disfigured, permanently, if you get an infection after fat grafting.

Most of the complication-related articles are coming from Korea. The lipogranulomas are very hard, cyst-like masses under the skin that cause chronic swelling.

I wonder if this is related to how Koreans do it . coleman beens doing this for 20+ years

earl25

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2017, 06:32:43 PM »
I have a few:
Delayed lipogranuloma of the cheek following autologous fat injection: report of 2 cases
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4203268/

Periorbital Lipogranuloma after Autologous Fat Injection for Forehead Augmentation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4828391/

Sepsis with multiple abscesses after massive autologous fat grafting for augmentation mammoplasty: a case report.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057949

Mycobacterium conceptionense infection
complicating face rejuvenation with fat grafting http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jmm/60/3/371.pdf?expires=1486084422&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=5CB10EC6947DF3292EEEA0B883818690

I have at least 10-15 articles saved. The infections are the worst; you will end up severely disfigured, permanently, if you get an infection after fat grafting.

Most of the complication-related articles are coming from Korea. The lipogranulomas are very hard, cyst-like masses under the skin that cause chronic swelling.

would you mind if I copt the links and post on missj I want to hear their opinion

girl

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Re: any of you tried fat????
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2017, 11:48:05 AM »
The Koreans are using plain old fat and they probably use it the most out of every country. They do so much PS and maxillofacial surgery though that they're less financially motivated by fat grafting than the American doctors are and therefore, it doesn't surprise me that they are the main group who are publishing critical literature on its safety.

The really disfiguring problems relate to Mycobacterium infections that are actually quite common after fat grafting (at least a percentage of people get some form of infection afterwards). With an implant, if you have an infection, it will be localised. Same with dermal fillers - it's like a gel and can be expressed. With fat grafting, a bacterial infection spreads very rapidly around the face. Because they do such large areas and put it everywhere, that heightens the risk - as well as the fact that bacteria probably thrives in fat (and it's not injected in as sterile a manner as dermal fillers are). No method of extracting it in the event of emergency exists. In fact, they usually say... 'add more fat'.

Here are several more articles about that:

Treatment of the Mycobacterium chelonae Infection after Fat Injection
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4297809/

Management of Infections with Rapidly Growing Mycobacteria after Unexpected Complications of Skin and Subcutaneous Surgical Procedures
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385308/

Mycobacterium abscessus infection complicating hand rejuvenation with structural fat grafting
http://www.jprasurg.com/article/S1748-6815(08)00203-9/abstract?cc=y=

Empirical Treatment of Highly Suspected Nontuberculous Mycobacteria Infections Following Aesthetic Procedures
http://e-aps.org/search.php?where=aview&id=10.5999/aps.2014.41.6.759&code=2023APS&vmode=PUBREADER

A.I. Rubin S.M. Hoefflin, The Case Study of Mycobacterium Chelonae Infections After Fat Injections in Cheek and Lips Areas (don't have the link for this one)