Author Topic: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com  (Read 15896 times)

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stupidjaws

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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2013, 05:33:32 PM »
I read it And feel bad (mouth breather)

CK

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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2013, 10:01:55 PM »
remember everyone's growth is different. there are too many variables. im not sure if im on board with the mouth breathing claim, that in and of itself shouldnt cause lasting damage. however mouth breathing could involve a tongue thrust and that can mess with the teeth and palate development. to what degree again all depends.

also, you can experience abnormal growth and the class of your jaw may not change. the bite can also be superficially corrected with braces but doesn't undo the damage done to the rest of the face.


Quote
Now, diet is probably very important. I'd say eating properly as a kid increases your chances of developing correctly. But these blanket statements like "all", "every", "never" etc are ridiculous. And if a theory can't explain all results, then it simply isn't true. It might not be entirely false, but sound science has to explain every case. The only way to do that, with jaws, is to admit phenotype = genotype + environment. It's both, and my guess is that the affect environment has over phenotype is determined by genetic predisposition/sensitivity.

we can't get too hung up on the generalizations. it doesn't at all take away from the very real fact that the human face is incredibly vulnerable to the environment during childhood.

the jaw is just one feature and isn't always affected by abnormal growth. the bite may be preserved but the jaw itself could be underdeveloped.

i dont think diet is that important tbh. pacifiers/oral posture are the worst, most decent dentists and ortho will tell you this.

@euphoria

as far as the cheekbones go, what we do know is their development is tied directly to the upper jaw.









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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2013, 10:43:34 PM »
remember everyone's growth is different. there are too many variables. im not sure if im on board with the mouth breathing claim, that in and of itself shouldnt cause lasting damage. however mouth breathing could involve a tongue thrust and that can mess with the teeth and palate development. to what degree again all depends.

also, you can experience abnormal growth and the class of your jaw may not change. the bite can also be superficially corrected with braces but doesn't undo the damage done to the rest of the face.


we can't get too hung up on the generalizations. it doesn't at all take away from the very real fact that the human face is incredibly vulnerable to the environment during childhood.

the jaw is just one feature and isn't always affected by abnormal growth. the bite may be preserved but the jaw itself could be underdeveloped.

i dont think diet is that important tbh. pacifiers/oral posture are the worst, most decent dentists and ortho will tell you this.

@euphoria

as far as the cheekbones go, what we do know is their development is tied directly to the upper jaw.









Tongue thrusting f**ked me over bad. What I don't understand is what makes someone more prone to tongue thrusting  than someone else

CK

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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 11:04:20 PM »
Tongue thrusting f**ked me over bad. What I don't understand is what makes someone more prone to tongue thrusting  than someone else

it would be helpful to look at images of your hard and soft palate to see how it developed. tongue thrust can mess up the teeth (generally fixable) but i dont know if it can harm the rest of the face in a disastrous way.

problem is bad growth may go undiagnosed or unrecognized because the difference may appear subtle compared to someone normal. but a few mm in the wrong direction and it can do a number on your appearance and function.





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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2013, 11:10:13 PM »
it would be helpful to look at images of your hard and soft palate to see how it developed. tongue thrust can mess up the teeth (generally fixable) but i dont know if it can harm the rest of the face in a disastrous way.

problem is bad growth may go undiagnosed or unrecognized because the difference may appear subtle compared to someone normal. but a few mm in the wrong direction and it can do a number on your appearance and function.





I
Geez if it's not the thrust then I I have no idea wth it is that caused it but it seems like tracing the origins of it could be paramount to preventing/alleviating it

Also I took quality pics that would probably clearly identify the issues but don't want to post them  ;D

CK

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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2013, 11:19:51 PM »
I
Geez if it's not the thrust then I I have no idea wth it is that caused it but it seems like tracing the origins of it could be paramount to preventing/alleviating it

Also I took quality pics that would probably clearly identify the issues but don't want to post them  ;D

if the origin is growth at a fundamental level then there isnt much of a point. you cant re-build cheekbones or produce horizontal/forward growth. jaw surgery+bone grafting can fix you from a surgical perspective but nothing beyond it.


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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2013, 11:24:35 PM »
if the origin is growth at a fundamental level then there isnt much of a point. you cant re-build cheekbones or produce horizontal/forward growth. jaw surgery+bone grafting can fix you from a surgical perspective but nothing beyond it.


What about the future? Procedures like DO may be what we've been looking for but they seem rudimentary at this point

Also I heard the skull can continue to grow up through 24-25 (possibly later if late puberty like I had), will this not be meaningful growth?

CK

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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2013, 11:33:14 PM »
What about the future? Procedures like DO may be what we've been looking for but they seem rudimentary at this point

Also I heard the skull can continue to grow up through 24-25 (possibly later if late puberty like I had), will this not be meaningful growth?

i cant picture the science since the bones are ossified. i dont now about 24-25 lol but the most important growth is 0-12 when face is still malleable and the bones are soft. i cant see how d.o can recreate growth in a way you are looking for. maybe someday it will be better than jaw surgery but it will still be surgery and just a fix not a cure.


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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2013, 11:36:46 PM »
i cant picture the science since the bones are ossified. i dont now about 24-25 lol but the most important growth is 0-12 when face is still malleable and the bones are soft. i cant see how d.o can recreate growth in a way you are looking for. maybe someday it will be better than jaw surgery but it will still be surgery and just a fix not a cure.


well the bones are ossified but d.o. means NEW bone growth, separating the current bone and allowing new bone to grow in the gap between the separation, regardless of ossification.

The idea seems to be exactly what's needed for you and I, I imagine the only thing that's held it back thus far is the execution.

CK

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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2013, 11:46:17 PM »
well the bones are ossified but d.o. means NEW bone growth, separating the current bone and allowing new bone to grow in the gap between the separation, regardless of ossification.

The idea seems to be exactly what's needed for you and I, I imagine the only thing that's held it back thus far is the execution.

but it's very minor and subtle compared to natural growth. in the case of vertical growth that affects the upper and midface d.o is not going to reproduce natural growth. it's not a competitor.

if your bones elongated d.o/jaw surgery cant change that. impaction will be minimal in terms of how it affects proportions.


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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2013, 11:51:23 PM »
but it's very minor and subtle compared to natural growth. in the case of vertical growth that affects the upper and midface d.o is not going to reproduce natural growth. it's not a competitor.

if your bones elongated d.o/jaw surgery cant change that. impaction will be minimal in terms of how it affects proportions.


Is there that many mm that stands between my situation and natural growth? doesn't seem like it. I'm not expecting Hollywood cheeks, I just want normal, actual existent ones.

Isn't the minor and subtle change of d.o. just a current limitation of it's capabilities? or is there a universal aspect to it that prevent's it's lengthening of bone beyond a certain degree? I'm not saying it's my current salvation, only that it has future potential.

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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2013, 12:07:24 AM »

Is there that many mm that stands between my situation and natural growth? doesn't seem like it. I'm not expecting Hollywood cheeks, I just want normal, actual existent ones.

Isn't the minor and subtle change of d.o. just a current limitation of it's capabilities? or is there a universal aspect to it that prevent's it's lengthening of bone beyond a certain degree? I'm not saying it's my current salvation, only that it has future potential.

i dont know what hollywood cheeks are, high/low/flat/no cheekbones aren't necessarily bad things, individual features don't matter that much.

surgery cannot recreate childhood growth. that timeline is over. individual features can be meddled with such as the jaw but your bone structure is basically stone. your face is like jenga puzzle only so many pieces can be messed with before it becomes unstable.

it would be cool if you had a twin.

you have cheekbones they are just set low.



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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2013, 12:14:26 AM »
i dont know what hollywood cheeks are, high/low/flat/no cheekbones aren't necessarily bad things, individual features don't matter that much.

surgery cannot recreate childhood growth. that timeline is over. individual features can be meddled with such as the jaw but your bone structure is basically stone. your face is like jenga puzzle only so many pieces can be messed with before it becomes unstable.

it would be cool if you had a twin.

you have cheekbones they are just set low.



figure of speech, my cheekbones may as well not exist. having a twin would be a depressing reminder of what could've been

I like your jenga puzzle analogy  :D probably some truth to that


I'm worried that I'll overhype the possibilities of jaw surgery. In some pics it looks like it's the only thing throwing off my face, in other pics my entire face looks like a mess. can't figure out which is true to reality and which is lens distortion

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Re: Interesting post from bodybuilding.com
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2013, 12:21:18 AM »

I'm worried that I'll overhype the possibilities of jaw surgery. In some pics it looks like it's the only thing throwing off my face, in other pics my entire face looks like a mess. can't figure out which is true to reality and which is lens distortion

youd need to take a high-resolution photo at rest. you probably by habit take photos posing a certain way, avoiding specific angles like the plague....so you forget what you really look like. you might avoid photos all together.

it's important to look now as hard as that sounds. after surgery you'll be looking much more closely and you may be unprepared if you weren't aware of your appearance before surgery. that's essential in managing expectations.