Your opinion on my jaw - please and thanks!

[al12345]

Firstly, I apologize for being long winded. I know I have to give you some detail but I'm not trying to write my autobiography here - sorry. *pics link including ceph at the bottom if you want to judge first, read later*

I am a 34 year old woman from the US. For as long as I can remember, I thought my face was long. And kinda big. A little more like it fit someone who is 5' 10" instead of 5' 6". I always seem to have the biggest face in the group pic, and this is largely attributable to its length. Anywho, my dentists always said I had beautiful teeth growing up. My current dentist raves whenever he sees me saying I could be a tooth model. No one ever recommended any sort of orthodontics (although I elected to have an express round of Invisalign about 4 years ago to preempt some worsening crookedness in my bottom teeth). I was a mouth breather/thumb sucker/teeth grinder in my youth. The teeth grinding persisted well into adulthood until I had my bite balanced a few years back; the mouth breathing does make an appearance from time to time although I have tried to condition myself out of it.  I think I probably have a deviated septum because my mom does and our facial anatomy is very similar. Probably some tongue thrust going on... but nothing confirmed yet there.

Aside from the length of the lower half of my face, I'd say what is most bothersome to me aesthetically speaking is #1 - my gummy smile and #2 - all the tension/orange-peeliness/smile lines and such I have on my chin/below my lip/around my jaw. Why can't my mouth just be at rest and look like a "normal" person's instead of all rumpled, dimpled and rippled up? (Having been an acne sufferer for 17 years doesn't help but I'm always doing what I can about that). Perioral mounds, what?? Even in people with receded jaws, I most often see a ~45 degree-sloping drop off under a protruding lip versus these perioral pockets I have. Moreover, I can never seem to find a good resting spot for my lower jaw. It just never feels totally right and I always feel some level of lip incompetence. I do have a little bit of an open bite up front, which you can see in my ceph... it's more of an annoyance than anything since I can never fully bite through stuff like sandwiches...pizza...spaghetti...etc., etc. I often have to manually tear off whatever food item I can't chew through like I'm ripping a piece of saran wrap off the roll.

As far as any other functional issues go, I don't really know. I have no jaw pain so I guess that rules out TMJ. I feel like I have much more mobility in my facial muscles and a much wider yawn than most people I know. I seem to have the version of the double jointed jaw although I don't have Steven Tyler level wideness. I can make some reeeeeally interesting faces, and not because I necessarily mean to.

I think it is pretty clear I have some VME. I did go to Dr. Jamali in NYC for a consult, and he was very personable but he acted like my issue was....well, not much of an issue at all. Some excess but didn't seem too concerned. Granted I am sure he sees much worse and I apparently don't have much in the way of the traditional dental malocclusion that accompanies some of my other symptoms, but still. He did ask me if I have sleep apnea because my airway looks small. I don't know... I've never been tested for it and none of my past SOs have ever commented on excessive snoring. I would however say on the whole I have sleep issues and am often tired, so it could most definitely be the case.

I've made a couple feeble posts on realself but didn't get anything or anything substantial back in response. Then I stumble upon this forum and I am overwhelmed by the knowledge of the folks here. So might as well just share my pics and see what comes in. I am not knowledgeable enough to know about CCW/CW rotations and some of the finer points of orthognathic surgery that may apply to me, but Jamali did say if I were do to anything it should be a Lefort (I assume he meant Lefort I considering his mild response to my concerns). He said he liked my chin and didn't really want to touch it...then towards the end of the consult he waffled a little with some sliding genio. He did say that the new placement of my lower jaw resulting from the Lefort should reduce the muscle tension and perioral mound issues that I find bothersome. And of course greatly reduce the gummy smile.

Here's the link to my pics:
https://goo.gl/photos/qgGZXyb4Mo8S9sEU9

I will take this down after I get a bit of a conversation going. I appreciate your thoughts on what you would do if you were me/what you think about surgery. I think there is a pretty obvious skeletal issue here but maybe I'm just crazy.

PS Most of these are from 2015 taken with a pro camera and most definitely *highlight* my areas of concern...except the iphone screen shot with the bangs, that's from a few weeks ago. The hot blonde is just #lowerhalffacegoals, for your reference.

[UnderMunch]

You are a very attractive woman, but I definitely also see your concerns about gummy smile and the tension that seems to be going on around the mouth.

My immediate conclusion, is that a reduction of your upper jaw would also help your lower third as the lower jaw and the tip of your chin would come more forward upon occlusion.

Bit overall I can't point out anything about your face that you don't already know. I'd suggest you see some of the U.S. based max fac surgeons that are mentioned by the other users on here, as your average surgeon doesn't seem to be helpful to patients who have issues that are more concerned with aesthetics than function.

Important side  note: I clicked your photos before reading your post to avoid any bias, and the only thing I really noticed was the gummy smile. The tension around your mouth went unnoticed: I wouldn't bother too much if it can't be fixed as you're really beautiful as is.

[UnderMunch]

I also have to warn you about these forums: reading them and listening to the opinions of the people on here can leave you with a temporary or chronic case of BDD.

Repeatedly questioning your own attractiveness will happen when reading about how others do it, and it can quickly become a habit that you adopt and can't leave even when you go offline.

Read with caution!

[PloskoPlus]

You're attractive. Excessive gum show on women is acceptable and yours isn't that bad. If you have lip strain, by all means look into surgery. But tread carefully. This forum is full of women who were over impacted and hate the way they look after surgery. Having no gum show is ageing (and your lip will lengthen with  age anyway). And vertical changes to the face are the most dramatic (good or bad). If I were you I'd get the smallest impaction possible to fix the lip strain and that's it.

[al12345]

I want candid feedback for sure. I don't know why anyone here would want to BS me to spare my feelings, and I don't think the first two respondents were doing that. If someone were to tell me I do NOT have gummy smile, well, they'd be lying. While my gummy smile may be a glaring issue for some, it isn't so bad for others, likely due in part to the fact that my teeth are straight, white and healthy. Which is why my dentists love to see me. I've had two minor cavities my entire life. Unless there is a notable functional problem, when they see my kind of teeth, they're not going to comment on any cosmetic deficiencies that have no perceived impact on the long term health of my teeth, and that's what this is. After all, he did say TOOTH model, not SMILE model...the former's beauty rests largely on what makes them healthy, while the latter's beauty obviously also includes skeletal proportions.

I appreciate the feedback as it really does help to get opinions and information from those who want, need, or have had surgery, or those who have considered it and have decided against it. That said, I know this site and others like it can become rabbit holes. I'll try to steer clear of that wicked "wonderland."  Plain and simple, I named my concerns. I'm self-conscious about them and have been for years, but that doesn't mean I have terrible self-confidence on the whole or that I am in pursuit of MODEL, or has-been model, good looks (um, hello, 34 here). Now I know there are a lot of people out there who are trying to look like someone else or someone 20 years younger, and I am NOT trying to be that blonde in my pics, but it helps to have someone to point to and say that I think this is what is beautiful to gain some perspective (for future reference, any hashtags in my posts are probably hyperbolic).

In short, I would just like to piss in the surgical pot or get off of it. THANKS for your help. If I resolve myself to acceptance after I've fully investigated my improvement options, well, then that will take a different form of tender all together.

[al12345]

BTW not to rain on anyone's parade, but I'm NOT a pop star. I repeat, NOT a pop star. Nor a successful professional musician. It's my hobby and I included singing pics since I am bothered by the way the lower 1/3 of my face looks "in action" on account of my list of concerns. Annndddd...when you do perform, you do tend to be caught on film a lot more than when you're not.

Sorry to be a drag ....

[protruder]

You do have gummy smile. But that is part of who YOU are.

I had double jaw surgery more than a year ago to treat sleep apnea. Mostly, women found me handsome before surgery. They find me handsome now too, but I just feel like I lost the ME, in jaw surgery. I wished I could get my old face and still be able to breath at night.

Your face is a very big part of your identity, and in your case it involves gummy smile. You are an attractive woman as you are.

If you get jaw surgery to treat your gummy smile, you will still be attractive, maybe more attractive maybe less. But it won't be your face anymore. I wished someone told me this before surgery. I probably would have had it anyways, because I needed it from a medical point of view, but I would beg the surgeon to change my face as little as possible.

A lot of people find themselves less attractive after jaw surgery, and some have terrible complications, but for me the worse is the feeling of identity loss.

If you get surgery, most people won't understand you and tell you that they liked your smile the way it was, because that is YOUR smile.

And if its worth anything, I like it

[Lazlo]

you need impaction and you need your chin brought forward.

[protruder]

you need impaction and you need your chin brought forward.

You don't need anything.

[ditterbo]

You do have gummy smile. But that is part of who YOU are.

I had double jaw surgery more than a year ago to treat sleep apnea. Mostly, women found me handsome before surgery. They find me handsome now too, but I just feel like I lost the ME, in jaw surgery. I wished I could get my old face and still be able to breath at night.

Your face is a very big part of your identity, and in your case it involves gummy smile. You are an attractive woman as you are.

If you get jaw surgery to treat your gummy smile, you will still be attractive, maybe more attractive maybe less. But it won't be your face anymore. I wished someone told me this before surgery. I probably would have had it anyways, because I needed it from a medical point of view, but I would beg the surgeon to change my face as little as possible.

A lot of people find themselves less attractive after jaw surgery, and some have terrible complications, but for me the worse is the feeling of identity loss.

If you get surgery, most people won't understand you and tell you that they liked your smile the way it was, because that is YOUR smile.

And if its worth anything, I like it

Did you pick a doc that wasn't well known for focusing on aesthetic outcomes, protruder?

Cosmetically I saw the upper gum show but yours isn't that many standards of deviation out of the norm. I think a lefort is a major operation and will mess with the rest of your face, if you take it on.  Definitely something to research if you really want to fix the gum show (which will lesson as you age anyways, I think).  Your chin issue isn't noticeable to others, so it depends how much you want to try and correct the dimpling for your own sanity.

[protruder]

Did you pick a doc that wasn't well known for focusing on aesthetic outcomes, protruder?

Cosmetically I saw the upper gum show but yours isn't that many standards of deviation out of the norm. I think a lefort is a major operation and will mess with the rest of your face, if you take it on.  Definitely something to research if you really want to fix the gum show (which will lesson as you age anyways, I think).  Your chin issue isn't noticeable to others, so it depends how much you want to try and correct the dimpling for your own sanity.

His results seemed aesthetically pleasing to me. He was referred to me as the best surgeon in Europe.

[al12345]

Phantom - unfortunately (at least in your opinion), I can do nothing about how huge my smile gets. When a smile is involuntary, more muscles come into play and what you see there is what happens. I try to smile smaller but when it's involuntary, I can't stop it. Usually I just resort to covering my mouth with my hand when I laugh hard or smile hard, which is a dead give away to my self-consciousness. Now botoxing those muscles is an option but I am concerned that it will lengthen my upper lip at rest.  BUT, the way things are now, at least you know what I REALLY think about people's jokes (lots of gum = actually funny. not a lot of gum = lame but I'm trying to be nice).

Protruder - point taken, and what you have described is definitely a fear of mine, but I am in this for aesthetic reasons....I want to change the appearance of my face for the better. That said, I know one of the risks with this surgery is that the soft tissue outcome is often unpredictable and people do not end up getting what they thought they would out of the surgery aesthetically, and/or issues are swapped out for worse ones. I think the only way I can work to reduce this risk is to be certain that I have identified the correct source of my concerns, that any surgeon I work with is well-qualified and that the solutions fit the problem.  If I feel confident I have done all of those and am still facing an unpredictable outcome, I'll probably nix the idea.

[Icy]

As a woman and a portrait artist I must say that I think you are gorgeous and have a very balanced looking face despite your VME. That being said, if correcting your issues will help your self-esteem and dental health, then I'd go for it so long as you're working with a reputable surgeon who is willing to listen to your concerns!

[strongjawman]

1/ You're very attractive even with slight maxillary excess.

2/ What Lazlo said - slight impaction and chin brought forward a bit.

3/ You need to weigh up the cost/benefit ratio.

4/ Talk to multiple reputable surgeons to learn more about what can be done.

[LyraM45]

I think you're super attractive as is, but in the end it doesn't matter what any of us think-- it's what YOU think, and sometimes jaw surgery doesn't cure what we think about ourselves.  If you're your own worst critic before, you'll be your own worst critic after and will find other things to pick at.  And more important question is, how does all this feel?  Are you functionally impaired?  Your skeletal set up reminds me a little of mine, except my arches were super high and narrow.  When I had surgery, I opted to actually leave myself a gummy smile with the impaction.  Why?  Well, it's part of who I am and I didn't want to lose that, and it's also better as you age  You will thank yourself later, trust me!

If you are having facial strain, sleep apnea/snoring issues, etc, then you'd probably benefit from jaw surgery.  I'd make the rounds and get multiple opinions and see what the options are for your case.