What are the root causes of unwanted vertical growth of the face?

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

Can tooth extractions cause unwanted vertical growth?
Mouth breathing?
Lack of vitamins in diet?

[CK]

uh tooth extractions is not going to cause vertical growth, not that i know of.

studies of growth are limited.  the tongue is responsible for forming the palate early on (like infancy), this continues for several years. anything that disrupts that will cause vertical growth in some direction. that triggers/stimulates jaw growth supposedly. that's why pacifier sucking should be limited because it can create poor oral habits.

doubt mouth breathing influences growth, but mouth breathing often means a tongue thrust which if left untreated will mess up the bite.

vitamins in diet? LOL no that sounds like BS.

[pekay]

well extraction(s) causes the jaw(s) to shrink thus eliminating adequate tongue space so it's definitely a possibility

a common misconception is that people associate LFS/unwanted vertical growth with a Class II dental skeletal malocclusion but that always isn't the case, you can "be" a Class III and still have unwanted vertical growth of the mid-face

I read an interesting article/journal? by Prof Salmen on all this but I can't seem to find it (and it's in Portuguese)

quirky little trivia: this guy is considered by many to be one of the "best" surgeons in the country and from what I've learned he mastered his craft in Havana, Cuba (through an international fellowship program in the 90s) makes me wonder how much surgery costs there

[x]

Mouth breathing suggests tongue thrust, tongue thrust suggests open bite, open bite suggests skeletal misalignment, skeletal misalignment suggests scoliosis, etc.


Do the math. Jaw surgery is fixing one link in the chain

[Kristen]

Mouth breathing suggests tongue thrust, tongue thrust suggests open bite, open bite suggests skeletal misalignment, skeletal misalignment suggests scoliosis, etc.


Do the math. Jaw surgery is fixing one link in the chain

So do you believe that helps the others?

[x]

So do you believe that helps the others?

The ones that were caused by the jaw issues I would guess.

The things that cause the jaw issues are probably what makes people relapse when they do.

[stupidjaws]

I think it puts you in the position of solving other issues but they won't solve alone

[CK]

well extraction(s) causes the jaw(s) to shrink thus eliminating adequate tongue space so it's definitely a possibility

a common misconception is that people associate LFS/unwanted vertical growth with a Class II dental skeletal malocclusion but that always isn't the case, you can "be" a Class III and still have unwanted vertical growth of the mid-face

I read an interesting article/journal? by Prof Salmen on all this but I can't seem to find it (and it's in Portuguese)

quirky little trivia: this guy is considered by many to be one of the "best" surgeons in the country and from what I've learned he mastered his craft in Havana, Cuba (through an international fellowship program in the 90s) makes me wonder how much surgery costs there

i think focus on the class is a mistake. braces can superficially correct an malocclusion without treating vertical growth of the jaw. and it's not like growth is in a straight line, it is unpredictable when it occurs. how it affects the face depends on so many variables which is why there is no example of "standard" growth problems. makes it incredibly difficult to diagnose.

most surgeons dont want to operate on kids. of the three i saw only one supported jaw surgery before the bones hardened.

[pekay]

i think focus on the class is a mistake. braces can superficially correct an malocclusion without treating vertical growth of the jaw. and it's not like growth is in a straight line, it is unpredictable when it occurs. how it affects the face depends on so many variables which is why there is no example of "standard" growth problems. makes it incredibly difficult to diagnose.

most surgeons dont want to operate on kids. of the three i saw only one supported jaw surgery before the bones hardened.

Understood

You're right as always sir

soon as you graduate/finish college you should definitely consider becoming a Tony Robbins (of dental care) you would easily put a few hundred quack orthos out of a job while changing people's lifes for the better

[CK]

Understood

You're right as always sir

soon as you graduate/finish college you should definitely consider becoming a Tony Robbins (of dental care) you would easily put a few hundred quack orthos out of a job while changing people's lifes for the better

LOL. a lot of what i have posted is synthesis based on limited studies or discussions with surgeons. i am confident though due to personal experience and interacting with so many people with the same condition. when i have confronted other orthos about this, the response i get is "oh, it's just genetic." that's it, they cant respond or provide evidence that disproves what we consider to be a major cause of abnormal growth. the dentists familiar with growth were eager to explain the causes and preventive measures.

it's just gone unchallenged for so long.

even if half what i say is true it is damning.

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

uh tooth extractions is not going to cause vertical growth, not that i know of.

studies of growth are limited.  the tongue is responsible for forming the palate early on (like infancy), this continues for several years. anything that disrupts that will cause vertical growth in some direction. that triggers/stimulates jaw growth supposedly. that's why pacifier sucking should be limited because it can create poor oral habits.

doubt mouth breathing influences growth, but mouth breathing often means a tongue thrust which if left untreated will mess up the bite.

vitamins in diet? LOL no that sounds like BS.

When people here refer to "vertical growth" do they mean nose length, lack of midface projection and underprojecting orbitals/cheekbones?

I have a rather short midface (nose) although my maxilla is sunken in and I have some discolouration under my eyes. I also have pretty bad asymmetry (really crooked nose, maxilla and mandible are crooked in the same direction of my jaws) might even have asymmetrical eyesockets (I hope to god I dont)

[CK]

When people here refer to "vertical growth" do they mean nose length, lack of midface projection and underprojecting orbitals/cheekbones?

I have a rather short midface (nose) although my maxilla is sunken in and I have some discolouration under my eyes. I also have pretty bad asymmetry (really crooked nose, maxilla and mandible are crooked in the same direction of my jaws) might even have asymmetrical eyesockets (I hope to god I dont)

vertical growth shouldnt affect the posture of the nose (crooked or otherwise), that is a totally unique feature. growth isnt going to change the shape of your eye for example, though it will obviously influence how it sits on the face and accentuates other features/whole face.

if you had extractions as an adult, i cant see how any of those things occurred due to extractions. that is severe abnormal growth that began in childhood or earlier, genetic or environmental. or both. i havent seen a front picture of you so no one here can comment. the lack of projecting cheekbones may be due to the fact that they are set low on the face. when the upper jaw grows upwards instead of forward the bones in the upper face connected to the jaw grow downward, around the upper jaw. so your midface elongates, and you appear to have no cheekbones. you do have cheekbones, they are just set very low on top of the upper jaw.

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

vertical growth shouldnt affect the posture of the nose (crooked or otherwise), that is a totally unique feature. growth isnt going to change the shape of your eye for example, though it will obviously influence how it sits on the face and accentuates other features/whole face.

if you had extractions as an adult, i cant see how any of those things occurred due to extractions. that is severe abnormal growth that began in childhood or earlier, genetic or environmental. or both. i havent seen a front picture of you so no one here can comment. the lack of projecting cheekbones may be due to the fact that they are set low on the face. when the upper jaw grows upwards instead of forward the bones in the upper face connected to the jaw grow downward, around the upper jaw. so your midface elongates, and you appear to have no cheekbones. you do have cheekbones, they are just set very low on top of the upper jaw.

I had extractions when I was around 13/14 (this is why I worry about unwanted vertical growth). Im 18 now. I always thought my cheekbones were medium height and somewhat projecting. The discolouration under my eyes is worrying though.

And are you sure my asymmetrical nasal bone has nothing to do with it? I had a crossbite on one side of my maxilla which was left untreated as a kid, surely the maxilla positioning in the face can cause the nasal bone and eyesockets to grow in wonky? im not educated on the subject so im guessing here. Sorry if everything im saying is wrong XD

[CK]

I had extractions when I was around 13/14 (this is why I worry about unwanted vertical growth). Im 18 now. I always thought my cheekbones were medium height and somewhat projecting. The discolouration under my eyes is worrying though.

And are you sure my asymmetrical nasal bone has nothing to do with it? I had a crossbite on one side of my maxilla which was left untreated as a kid, surely the maxilla positioning in the face can cause the nasal bone and eyesockets to grow in wonky? im not educated on the subject so im guessing here. Sorry if everything im saying is wrong XD

how many teeth were extracted? if you did have vertical/unnatural growth in that area, your cheekbones should be sitting very close - if not directly on top and cemented - to the upper jaw. 13/14 is fairly late in growth and most of your bones have hardened considerably - although you are obviously still growing. they are just way less malleable.

in my case, my cheekbones are stretched and thinned out, not to mention widely uneven. you can actually see them sit super low in an xray, and compare the xray to ones taken during earlier years. in other words, you can observe my bones slowly growing upwards, mm by mm, rather than forward.

assuming your cheekbones didnt grow properly, the discoloration could be the result of an absence of support in your upper/mid face. the area becomes hallow rather than full, so the area absorbs shadows more easily and thus you see discoloration. i have something similar.

i seriously doubt extractions did anything to your nose, or your eye sockets growing in "wonky." but who knows, there arent a huge amount of studies on this (mostly because many doctors don't care) so this is just what ive been told by surgeons and limited studies available online.

now if through some bizarre situation you had teeth extracted at birth, or 5-6, that would be catastrophic. we can be more self-critical, so it could be a lot of the things you are seeing arent necessarily the results of abnormal growth. stress can also mess with your eyes imo

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

how many teeth were extracted? if you did have vertical/unnatural growth in that area, your cheekbones should be sitting very close - if not directly on top and cemented - to the upper jaw. 13/14 is fairly late in growth and most of your bones have hardened considerably - although you are obviously still growing. they are just way less malleable.

in my case, my cheekbones are stretched and thinned out, not to mention widely uneven. you can actually see them sit super low in an xray, and compare the xray to ones taken during earlier years. in other words, you can observe my bones slowly growing upwards, mm by mm, rather than forward.

assuming your cheekbones didnt grow properly, the discoloration could be the result of an absence of support in your upper/mid face. the area becomes hallow rather than full, so the area absorbs shadows more easily and thus you see discoloration. i have something similar.

i seriously doubt extractions did anything to your nose, or your eye sockets growing in "wonky." but who knows, there arent a huge amount of studies on this (mostly because many doctors don't care) so this is just what ive been told by surgeons and limited studies available online.

now if through some bizarre situation you had teeth extracted at birth, or 5-6, that would be catastrophic. we can be more self-critical, so it could be a lot of the things you are seeing arent necessarily the results of abnormal growth. stress can also mess with your eyes imo

That sounds absolutely brutal :| fml.

I made a thread about it a while ago, if theres a post history for me on here you can find it. I had 2 upper teeth extracted (biscupids) at either 13 or 14.

I've been feeling around my midface but its hard to tell if my cheekbones are sitting directly above my maxilla. That would surely take away all prominence you couldve had which would suck. I do have central scleral show and some discolouration under my eyes. The dished in midface also.

Will a surgeon be able to go indepth with me about all of this? im really anxious about it. I would absolutely hate to have had vertical growth that was not supposed to happen. Its maddening even thinking about it.

edit: Here is a ceph of my skull from profile. Do you know how to examine/read them?