Chin wing gonial angles + jutting forward

[skullremodel]

I don't necessarily want a wider jaw. I'm wondering if the chin wing is equivalent to jutting your jaw forward? And how much the gonial angle can be reduced with a chin wing

Edit: also, what is the effect on cheek concavity, I know there's discussion that Lefort I causes loss of this

[skullremodel]

bumping this.

was told the gonial can be reduced and 90deg is feasible, not sure how this would work
was also told ramus can be lengthed considerably ~1cm

[Milli_Meters]

Chin wing = jutting jaw fwd?  = Horse s**t. Chin wing does not impact occlusion. You can not jut jaw without perturbing the bite.

Ya Ramus is routinely dropped upto 1 cm.

[skullremodel]

Well, yeah, I mean the bite is impacted when jutting the jaw forward but I'm curious if the chin wing is similar to the aesthetic appearance of jutting the jaw forward as it's moving essientslly the mandible forward, no?

[Milli_Meters]

Just check some B n As.

[UnderMunch]

No, chin wing could never give the same aesthetic as jutting your lower jaw forward: when you hit your jaw forward, you are moving all parts your jaw forward, from the top of your lower row of teeth teeth, down to the tip of your chin.

The chin wing will only move a segment of your jaw forward like a sliding genio would.

That's why do many in here consider chin wing to be a camouflage and not a solution for recessed lower thirds.

[Lazlo]

No, chin wing could never give the same aesthetic as jutting your lower jaw forward: when you hit your jaw forward, you are moving all parts your jaw forward, from the top of your lower row of teeth teeth, down to the tip of your chin.

The chin wing will only move a segment of your jaw forward like a sliding genio would.

That's why do many in here consider chin wing to be a camouflage and not a solution for recessed lower thirds.

agreed and it won't look the same either since it's not moving the teeth so displacing a good amount of volume. In fact chinwin without jaw surgery will always look like s**t.

[Milli_Meters]

Ya its really more of a cherry on the top. A substantive cherry but you need your jaws atleast normalized first.

[Lefortitude]

agreed and it won't look the same either since it's not moving the teeth so displacing a good amount of volume. In fact chinwin without jaw surgery will always look like s**t.

I disagree.  I have seen lots of cases of people had chin wing alone with fantastic results.  The key is that IT IS NOT A SUSBITUTE FOR BSSO IN CASES OF MANDIBULAR RETROGNATHIA.  When people try to use chin wing as an adjunct to orthognathic surgery, it ends up creating further aesthetic imbalance alot of the time.  HOWEVER if the jaws are already skeletal class 1 and the patient has a steep mandibular plane angle and/or pognian behind the lower lip (recessed chin) the chin wing can create a DRAMATIC and INCREDIBLE result.  Ive seen Dr Zs case photos in office and i assure you they are nothing short of spectacular under these circumstances.

[Milli_Meters]

I disagree.  I have seen lots of cases of people had chin wing alone with fantastic results.  The key is that IT IS NOT A SUSBITUTE FOR BSSO IN CASES OF MANDIBULAR RETROGNATHIA.  When people try to use chin wing as an adjunct to orthognathic surgery, it ends up creating further aesthetic imbalance alot of the time.  HOWEVER if the jaws are already skeletal class 1 and the patient has a steep mandibular plane angle and/or pognian behind the lower lip (recessed chin) the chin wing can create a DRAMATIC and INCREDIBLE result.  Ive seen Dr Zs case photos in office and i assure you they are nothing short of spectacular under these circumstances.

Adjunct or substitute?  I intend on using the CW as an adjunct.

[ismic]

I'm having a CW very soon. Of course it doesn't do the same movement as jutting your jaw forward since a CW doesn't move the teeth at all, only the bottom edge of the jaw. See my crudely-made drawing: bone is cut along the blue edge (important: the cut is made below the nerve, this is why the surgeon needs the 3D scan, and why some people with their nerve too low can't get a CW), the detached part can then be moved freely (towards the front and rotated, as shown here, but can also be moved to the side or even back). If necessary, the gaps can be filled by bone that is taken from the inside of your hip. In case of small movements however, the gaps are small enough that bone can grow back by itself. What is worth mentioning here is the fact the the soft tissue stays attached to the bone. That's what makes CW results look more "natural" than say implants.

So back to jutting the jaw. The bone movement isn't the same, but I think jutting the jaw can at least give somewhat of an idea of what a CW can bring. For instance, notice how the jaw looks wider when bringing it forward, even though it's same same width. This is because in its normal position, the angles are hidden in somewhat loose skin, and by simply stretching it you get much more defined contours. On top of that a CW can also make the angle closer to 90°. The new angle is already more aesthetic, but it brings even more skin stretching.

Remember a couple years ago when everyone was doing a duckface in their selfies? It looked quite dumb, but by doing a duckface you automatically jut your jaw and by puckering your lips you stretch your skin even more. This leads to a more defined jaw contour and thus better-looking selfies. I think people unconsciously did it for this very reason.

As Lefortitude said, it's not a substitute for proper jaw surgery if you badly-positioned jaws. But I think that for a lot of cases, it's more than enough to make you look a lot better. The fact that it's a relatively cheap operation and that the recovery time is short (at most 2 weeks) makes it a very attractive choice.

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[Milli_Meters]

Good luck with ur CW ismic.

[UnderMunch]

I'm having a CW very soon. Of course it doesn't do the same movement as jutting your jaw forward since a CW doesn't move the teeth at all, only the bottom edge of the jaw. See my crudely-made drawing: bone is cut along the blue edge (important: the cut is made below the nerve, this is why the surgeon needs the 3D scan, and why some people with their nerve too low can't get a CW), the detached part can then be moved freely (towards the front and rotated, as shown here, but can also be moved to the side or even back). If necessary, the gaps can be filled by bone that is taken from the inside of your hip. In case of small movements however, the gaps are small enough that bone can grow back by itself. What is worth mentioning here is the fact the the soft tissue stays attached to the bone. That's what makes CW results look more "natural" than say implants.

So back to jutting the jaw. The bone movement isn't the same, but I think jutting the jaw can at least give somewhat of an idea of what a CW can bring. For instance, notice how the jaw looks wider when bringing it forward, even though it's same same width. This is because in its normal position, the angles are hidden in somewhat loose skin, and by simply stretching it you get much more defined contours. On top of that a CW can also make the angle closer to 90°. The new angle is already more aesthetic, but it brings even more skin stretching.

Remember a couple years ago when everyone was doing a duckface in their selfies? It looked quite dumb, but by doing a duckface you automatically jut your jaw and by puckering your lips you stretch your skin even more. This leads to a more defined jaw contour and thus better-looking selfies. I think people unconsciously did it for this very reason.

As Lefortitude said, it's not a substitute for proper jaw surgery if you badly-positioned jaws. But I think that for a lot of cases, it's more than enough to make you look a lot better. The fact that it's a relatively cheap operation and that the recovery time is short (at most 2 weeks) makes it a very attractive choice.

I know with 100% certainty that the change you see in your face from jutting your jaw forward has nearly no relation to the result that you can get from a chin wing surgery.

There's no way to only jut the lowest part of your jaw, it's just not possible; when jutting, you're move the entire lower third forward, teeth and all, and that's why it's so impactful to both jawline and often the mid face too.

In my opinion, the chin wing is best used to change the shape of a convex jawline to a straight or more concave one. The lower part of your lower jaw being more forward should mostly only affect what you see in profile view, while bsso or bimax can create results that are also seen in frontal view.

told; If you have a retrognathic lower jaw and chose to only have a chin wing, then you're just placing a straight or protruding lower jawline on top and not fixing the underlying issue that's affecting the entire lower jaw. I assume doing this would create a less ideal or simply less aesthetically dramatic result and definitely not comparable to the visual effect you get from jutting your jaw forward.

Chin wings should then only be used on patients who just wish to change the shape of the jawline in profile view but don't suffer from an actual retrognathic lower jaw.

[Bowie]

Simple answer is when you jutt the lower jaw forward, the teeth come forward, so no it won't look the same.

[skullremodel]

I know with 100% certainty that the change you see in your face from jutting your jaw forward has nearly no relation to the result that you can get from a chin wing surgery.

There's no way to only jut the lowest part of your jaw, it's just not possible; when jutting, you're move the entire lower third forward, teeth and all, and that's why it's so impactful to both jawline and often the mid face too.

In my opinion, the chin wing is best used to change the shape of a convex jawline to a straight or more concave one. The lower part of your lower jaw being more forward should mostly only affect what you see in profile view, while bsso or bimax can create results that are also seen in frontal view.

told; If you have a retrognathic lower jaw and chose to only have a chin wing, then you're just placing a straight or protruding lower jawline on top and not fixing the underlying issue that's affecting the entire lower jaw. I assume doing this would create a less ideal or simply less aesthetically dramatic result and definitely not comparable to the visual effect you get from jutting your jaw forward.

Chin wings should then only be used on patients who just wish to change the shape of the jawline in profile view but don't suffer from an actual retrognathic lower jaw.

I have heard chin wings blunt the jaw angles and from some of the before and afters it looks like some front profile difference is gained...but I'm not sure.

I disagree.  I have seen lots of cases of people had chin wing alone with fantastic results.  The key is that IT IS NOT A SUSBITUTE FOR BSSO IN CASES OF MANDIBULAR RETROGNATHIA.  When people try to use chin wing as an adjunct to orthognathic surgery, it ends up creating further aesthetic imbalance alot of the time.  HOWEVER if the jaws are already skeletal class 1 and the patient has a steep mandibular plane angle and/or pognian behind the lower lip (recessed chin) the chin wing can create a DRAMATIC and INCREDIBLE result.  Ive seen Dr Zs case photos in office and i assure you they are nothing short of spectacular under these circumstances.

my lower jaw is recessed and upper jaw is recessed slightly. My overbite was fixed in 6 months of orthodontics and I'm class 1 now.
The big issue for bsso for me is the extractions, and if I underwent bsso I may as well try a bimax route as it'd correct a recessed upper jaw too.

I'm having a CW very soon. Of course it doesn't do the same movement as jutting your jaw forward since a CW doesn't move the teeth at all, only the bottom edge of the jaw. See my crudely-made drawing: bone is cut along the blue edge (important: the cut is made below the nerve, this is why the surgeon needs the 3D scan, and why some people with their nerve too low can't get a CW), the detached part can then be moved freely (towards the front and rotated, as shown here, but can also be moved to the side or even back). If necessary, the gaps can be filled by bone that is taken from the inside of your hip. In case of small movements however, the gaps are small enough that bone can grow back by itself. What is worth mentioning here is the fact the the soft tissue stays attached to the bone. That's what makes CW results look more "natural" than say implants.

So back to jutting the jaw. The bone movement isn't the same, but I think jutting the jaw can at least give somewhat of an idea of what a CW can bring. For instance, notice how the jaw looks wider when bringing it forward, even though it's same same width. This is because in its normal position, the angles are hidden in somewhat loose skin, and by simply stretching it you get much more defined contours. On top of that a CW can also make the angle closer to 90°. The new angle is already more aesthetic, but it brings even more skin stretching.

Remember a couple years ago when everyone was doing a duckface in their selfies? It looked quite dumb, but by doing a duckface you automatically jut your jaw and by puckering your lips you stretch your skin even more. This leads to a more defined jaw contour and thus better-looking selfies. I think people unconsciously did it for this very reason.

As Lefortitude said, it's not a substitute for proper jaw surgery if you badly-positioned jaws. But I think that for a lot of cases, it's more than enough to make you look a lot better. The fact that it's a relatively cheap operation and that the recovery time is short (at most 2 weeks) makes it a very attractive choice.

If you don't mind, would you please update us all on how your chin wing goes and the results? extremely interested in hearing.
Interesting though, so if you had more defined / less loose skin where your jaws are, would it potentially look wider as is? Or is it the actual positioning of the lower jaw forward that makes it look wider?