Masculine vs. Feminine jaw traits

[secondtimearound]

I think most characteristics of the face can be considered as sexually dimorphic.

For example, although most men have higher hairlines due to balding, in actual fact, high hairlines are considered feminine (eg. Jennifer Lawrence) as they evoke neoteny while low hairlines are considered masculine (eg. Gui Fedrizzi) because they look brutish and strong.

As another example, symmetry is desirable in both genders. However, asymmetry is less damaging in my opinion to a man, for whom it can add "character" like Harry Connick Jr., be completely overlooked as in Bradley Cooper's, Paul Walker's, or Ryan Gosling's cases, or even potentially make a man look slightly dangerous or off in a desirable way similarly to a facial scar or tattoo.

I am wondering what traits we can establish as generally masculine vs. feminine with jaws.

Here's what I think qualify as masculine jaw traits with the opposite of course being feminine.

Masculine Jaw Traits
- Squarer and flared mandibular angle with longer ramus (obvious)
- Broad maxillary arch
- Generally wider facial/jaw development
- Slightly longer lower third as proportion of face
- Slightly more CCW bite orientation (creates a meaner and less weak looking face than CW orientation)
- Less upper incisor show at rest (1-2 mm for men vs 1-4 mm for women).
- No lip incompetence (lip incompetence is by contrast common and often attractive in women)
- More forward set jaws ie. "anteface" or high SNA/SNB (this again I think has to do with neoteny as children often have bulbous foreheads with weak comparatively recessed jaws)

I think those are the main things. I'm curious if you agree, in particular with respect to forwards and slightly CCW jaws as more masculine traits, or have any other ideas to consider.

This is not to say you need all of the above to be considered a man, or having any of the above will make a female ugly. Many beautiful females have very powerful jaws. But I think it's useful to consider what is dimorphic in each direction when planning surgery, as most of us would probably rather come out more manly than feminine. Or for women getting surgery, vice versa.

[kavan]

You can wax aesthetics all you want as to what makes someone masculine (or femme) and highly attractive and that is great when you are sculpting something with clay or painting where when you learn and know the ideal proportions you can create a thing of 'beauty' just like the ancients were able to do or any artist. But what you need to concern yourself with is more PRAGMATIC things such as what is the 'art of the possible' when it comes to surgeries where not all can be balanced aesthetically as could be done if you had all the 'formulas' for creating beauty ideals from paint or clay.

As to some models or even celebs, but especially models which are used to link 'beauty' with PRODUCT sales (fashion, cosmetic sales, what ever), for the most part, they are NOT constructs of the surgeon. They are born with the lucky combination of a certain 'golden ratio' of aesthetic order which is why they are scouted out as models whether to cement in images of 'masculine' or 'feminine'.

The point here is that yes, we can define beauty and we can define it in terms of mathematical or geometric proportions and we see these things in popular (or even ancient) cultures. But as long as you understand that a surgeon, working with flesh and bone has LIMITATIONS and can't re-created what an artist  can.

[ODog]

Width = masculinity seems to be generally true however highly feminine women (estrogenic) very often have wider faces relative to their facial height, so it could be less about ratios and more about total width/ height when it comes to dimorphism. So CW vs. CCW orientation might have less to do with it as I don’t see highly feminine women having long faces with steep occlusal planes. They may just tend to have both shorter and narrower faces relative to men, not relative to their own skull. At least i don’t see it that way. Just as the bodies of highly feminine women aren’t necessarily narrow, e.g, J Lo doesn’t have a narrow body or skull.

Therefore, if you take any one man’s face and make it wider it will become more masculine, but take any one woman’s face and narrow it doesn’t necessarily become more feminine.

We may need to determine what we mean when we say feminine. To me feminine means healthy and high estrogen, not neonotonous/ weak. So sure a slender jawed woman may look weak and perhaps thus feminine but so would a lively-looking, bulbous cheeked woman with wide smile and wide hips.

[PloskoPlus]

Good looking men and women look the same.

[ODog]

Yes I’ve noticed this. The best looking women have well developed jaws. But why is this so if jaw width is associated with testosterone? Maybe more complicated?