Author Topic: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions  (Read 18748 times)

fulcanelli

  • Private
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 84
  • Karma: 3
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2018, 02:31:56 PM »
Good thread here on titanium. http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6795.0

Seems like Belgium is the place to go. I saw the post op X-ray and there’s a lot of Ti hardware floating around in my chin and it’s never given me any trouble in 12 years.

Reality

  • Private
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 15
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2018, 03:08:50 AM »
Lots of research you have there on MATERIALS. Might be time to take a detour and research PERIODONTAL PATHOGENS.

IMO, the MISSING LINK, as far as infections to ANY material goes, is that infections arise from PERIODONTAL PATHOGENS (found in the mouth, between the teeth or close to gums) that can get released into the BLOOD STREAM when a CUT is made INSIDE the mouth to place the implants. These pathogens just love to find their way to any place in the body where there is an implant.

To cut down on the probability of periodontal pathogens ruining an implant surgery, (or any surgery where cuts are made inside the mouth) get a full CLEANING (deep scaling under gum line if needed) MANY months before implants and another cleaning a few months or so before the surgery and in between be very concious that the teeth and gums are very clean and healthy.
Don't get a cleaning too close to the time of the implant surgery though.

 Prep with a lot of mouth baths like salt water rinses, hydrogen peroxide, dilute iodine solutions and any other home remedies you can find that are good for 'periodontitis' or 'gingivitis' since it is those 2 conditions that pretty much have the same/similar pathogens associated with the dental and gum conditions they cause.

 You can even search out dental practices that do a periodontal pathogen ASSAY. Doesn't hurt to have prophylactic anti-biotics before hand either.

@Kavan
: Excellent point and great information which can only further help others prevent complications when dealing with implantable materials. I dropped an applaud on you for + karma

Extending upon what kavan has said, I did indeed decide to detour and came across some beneficial information/resources relating to periodontal pathogens. The following should help inform individuals in preventative planning as well as treatment/therapy of periodontal pathogens which is paramount when considering implants.

Periodontal Pathogens
Periodontal pathogens are bacteria that have been shown to significantly contribute to periodontitis.

Although approximately 700 bacterial species have been identified in the oral cavity and nearly 300 species have been cultured and found to contribute to the biofilm (once your implant becomes immersed in biofilm it's over i.e. removal) of the periodontal pocket, there is a much smaller number of species that have been shown to be more closely related to the initial incidence and continued persistence of periodontitis, including:

• Aggregatibacter actinomycetemcomitans
• Porphyromonas gingivalis
• Tannerella forsythia (formerly Bacteroides forsythus)
• Treponema denticola
• Fusobacterium nucleatum
• Prevotella intermedia
• Prevotella nigrescens
• Eikenella corrodens
• Eubacterium nodatum
• Parvimonas micra (formerly Peptostreptococcus micros or Micromonas micros)
• Streptococcus intermedius
• Campylobacter rectus
• Capnocytophaga sp.

Periodontal disease is an inflammatory disease of the supporting tissues of the teeth, which is caused by specific microorganisms or groups of microorganisms living in a biofilm, on and around the teeth. Microorganisms initiate an immune response, and in some cases the result is progressive destruction of gingival tissues, the periodontal ligament and alveolar bone (Au revoir to your implants)

ORAL SYSTEMIC LINK (affecting your implants)
One hundred million Americans are infected with periodontal disease. It is recognized to increase risk for diabetes, heart disease, stroke and other systemic diseases.3 One out of every two American adults over age 30 has gum disease, according to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The findings, published in the Journal of Dental Research, estimate that 47.2 percent, or 64.7 million American adults, have some form of periodontal disease.
I M P L A N T S
M
P
L
A
N
T
S


Current scientific evidence links periodontal disease to a myriad of health problems, such as pneumonia, chronic respiratory disease, heart disease, pre-term and low-birth weight babies. One study published in Cardiovascular (1999) reported that among Canadians aged 36 to 69, individuals with severe gum disease have a three to seven times higher risk of fatal heart disease. Researchers also found that those with poor oral health may be up to three times more likely to have a stroke.
I M P L A N T S
M
P
L
A
N
T
S


Prevention & Risk Assessment
Bacterial DNA is the key to finding out if the patient is at risk from a microbial burden and human DNA is the key to understanding if the patient is genetically predisposed to an exaggerated response to inflammation.

OralDNA® Labs is a specialty diagnostics company that offers saliva screening by three DNA-polymerase chain-reaction (DNA-PCR) tests based on bacteria, genetics and viral load.

The first is a bacterial test, MyPerioPath®, which is used to detect periodontal disease, specifically pathogenic bacteria. This helps guide therapy based on causative agents and not on subjective observation. Additionally, the results of the test will identify tissue invasive bacteria and suggest adjunct oral and locally applied antibiotic protocols if needed. After therapy is completed, a follow-up sample will help monitor the efficacy of treatment and determine if additional measures are required.

Very comprehensive, check out a test result sample: https://www.oraldna.com/pdf/MyPerioPath_ReportNew.pdf

The second test is based on the individual’s genetic response to inflammation. MyPerioID® is a genetic susceptibility test which needs to be performed only once in a patient’s lifetime. The Interleukin-6 (IL-6) gene variance in a patient’s DNA is an indication of a predisposition for over-expression of inflammatory mediators. Over-expression of inflammatory mediators can increase the risk for attachment loss or periodontal disease activity. This test result will either be positive or negative. Knowing this information will help determine genetic risk prior to extensive therapy and can help guide therapeutic decisions. Knowing their genetic susceptibility can also help patients understand the severity of their disease and why they might struggle in controlling it. This is additionally helpful for patients with therapy resistant periodontitis or aggressive infections where host modulation therapy is needed.

Test result sample: https://www.oraldna.com/pdf/OralDNALabs-MyPerioID-IL1-report.pdf

In summary, both MyPerioPath® and MyPerioID® enable early identification of risk, and therefore, an opportunity to further personalize care. Without personalized therapy, the patient may continue to experience unresolved infection after therapy and the further spiral of periodontal breakdown.

Here is the link to the kits if anyone is interested: https://www.oraldna.com/periodontal-testing.html


Treatment

An outline of the total mouth disinfection protocol is as follows:

1. Occlusal analysis to identify and remove any fremitus in chewing.

2. Attack the bacteria in the pockets mechanically using scaling and root planing.

3. Attack the bacteria in the pockets chemically by irrigating with CariFree Treatment Rinse (Oral BioTech, www.carifree.com), iodine or chlorhexidine.

4. Deposition of a locally applied time-release antibiotic, Arestin® (OraPharma, Inc., www.orapharma.com) in all pockets equal to or greater than 5mm.

5. Attack the bacteria in the bloodstream with the antibiotic regimen suggested on the OralDNA report.

6. Attack the bacteria in the rest of the oral cavity with CariFree Treatment Rinse, ProFresh (ProFresh International Corp., www.profresh.com) or other chlorine dioxide rinse to control microbial load. The rinse protocol is to swish for one minute, twice daily.

7. Prescribe home care adjuncts such as a mechanical toothbrush, Waterpik® (Water Pik, Inc., www.waterpik.com) or Hydro­flosser (Shazzam Tsunami™, Bling Dental Products, www.blingdentalproducts.com) and interproximal aids, etc., for enhanced bacteria load control.

8. Maintain two-month re-evaluation appointments until stability (zero bleeding on periodontal chart) has been achieved.


Here is the specific total mouth disinfection protocol followed:

• Full mouth mechanical debridement with ultrasonic scaling and root planning followed by hand scaling.

• Full mouth in office irrigation with CariFree Treatment Rinse.

• Locally applied Arestin antibiotic placement in all pockets 5mm and above.

• Systemic antibiotic as suggested from the OralDNA report – Amoxicillin 500 mg tid for eight days in combination with Metronidazole 500 mg bid for eight days.

• Oral hygiene instructions were reviewed with specific instructions on the use of an electric toothbrush and an oral irrigator.

• CariFree Treatment Rinse was initiated for one minute twice daily for two months to control biofilm on the tongue, cheeks, and areas not supported by the teeth.

• A tight two-month re-evaluation schedule was planned until zero bleeding was established.

-Reality


 R̼̯̤̗̲̞̥̈ͭ̃ͨ̆e̮̟͈̣̖̰̩̹͈̾ͨ̑͑a̘̫͈̭͌͛͌̇̇̍l͕͖͉̭̰ͬ̍ͤ͆̊ͨi̞̟̫̺ͭ̒ͭͣt̘̟̼̉̈́͐͋͌̊y͉̝͖̻̯ͮ̒̂ͮ͋ͫͨ


R͚e͚a͚l͚i͚t͚y͚ Rͦͯͦͯeͦͯͦͯaͦͯͦͯlͦͯͦͯiͦͯͦͯtͦͯͦͯyͦͯͦͯ

Reality

  • Private
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 15
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2018, 03:42:03 AM »
@ditterbo: Good point and a worthwhile consideration


for f**k's sake just get a strong 9-10 mm genioplasty.

No one is gonna put titanium implants in you except that quack Coacinceg or whatever his name is.

If you go with him though he might do distraction on you which would be a first on this board for an adult patient. So you know your mileage may vary. But please do keep us abreast of what happens. You're seeking ascension and most of us like icarus fly too close to the sun.

@Lazlo: I agree with you about the Sliding Genio and like I mentioned previously, the idea is SG + Jaw Angle implants -thus the autistic amount of information I compiled on implant materials.

I also tend to agree with you when you say that no one is going to put TI in except less then a handful of surgeons. @Fulcanelli mentioned Belgium: Dr Natalie Loomans (however her "website" is quite minimal to put it nicely and there are no photos except for the scientific abstract that @Tim06 procured)

Moreover, when I saw my surgeon today and asked directly about TI he immediately shook his head and said there's no point lol...  it was kind of funny if it wasn't so arrogant but he has his own methods & ways that he's accustomed to.

Regarding ascension...  I like your sentiment, it's always good to keep in mind for balance and a reality check. For me, patience is the most difficult thing in this game (time always takes a hit: dreams, goals, personal, opportunities etc...) I've already lost a couple in this endeavor but I'll reach them again. 

Laz, who would you suggest regarding a Sliding Genio for a moderately large advancement?


Also, has anyone heard of these two surgeons (they're not "big name", at-least on this board or to myself) Found them as I was just browsing photos while waiting for a flight:

Dr. Alejandro Nogueira Super tacky website but seems to do many SG's with decent results. Plus, I like his technique. However, he's based in Spain: not sure how safe that is.

https://www.lowcostmetic.com/treatments/chin/sliding-genioplasty

Dr. Ivo Gwanmesia Based in London and seems to produce decent results but not sure how many he's performed.

https://www.ivogwanmesia.com/photo-gallery/genioplasty/


-Reality


 R̼̯̤̗̲̞̥̈ͭ̃ͨ̆e̮̟͈̣̖̰̩̹͈̾ͨ̑͑a̘̫͈̭͌͛͌̇̇̍l͕͖͉̭̰ͬ̍ͤ͆̊ͨi̞̟̫̺ͭ̒ͭͣt̘̟̼̉̈́͐͋͌̊y͉̝͖̻̯ͮ̒̂ͮ͋ͫͨ


R͚e͚a͚l͚i͚t͚y͚ Rͦͯͦͯeͦͯͦͯaͦͯͦͯlͦͯͦͯiͦͯͦͯtͦͯͦͯyͦͯͦͯ

PloskoPlus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3044
  • Karma: 140
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2018, 04:02:48 AM »
If all you need is a geniopasty, Gunson doesn't charge that much.

Reality

  • Private
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 15
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2018, 05:56:50 AM »
If all you need is a geniopasty, Gunson doesn't charge that much.

@PloskoPlus

Cool and that would be great but how exactly does one setup a consult with Gunson, without having a referral?! (I have no ortho or dentist either: was living out of country)

fulcanelli

  • Private
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 84
  • Karma: 3
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2018, 11:34:30 AM »
What about the chin wing procedure? Think there was a guy here who got good results in terms of width at the jaw angles with it. Not sure if he had other procedures too

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4034
  • Karma: 426
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 12:56:11 PM »
Reality,

Wow! Great research finding the periodontal pathogen info. I came accross of of same/similar before but did not have links on hand. THANX for the 'karma', I upvoted/applauded you too.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

haven

  • Private
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 11
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 12:58:52 PM »
Quote from: Reality link=topic=7291.msg64005#msg64005
date=1528894610
@PloskoPlus

Cool and that would be great but how exactly does one setup a consult with Gunson, without having a referral?! (I have no ortho or dentist either: was living out of country)

You need a referral to see him. You must have some recession in your jaws to have gotten implants. Get a referral from an Ortho to see him. Another member here told me he doesn't do much isolated genios though.

Reality

  • Private
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 15
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 02:09:15 PM »
@Kavan: Cheers m8 and thank you! ^ _ ^

You need a referral to see him. You must have some recession in your jaws to have gotten implants. Get a referral from an Ortho to see him. Another member here told me he doesn't do much isolated genios though.

@Haven: Thank you for clarifying this. So my next issue is finding an Ortho who will give me a referral but I don't know how any of this works (firstly, getting an Ortho and second, getting an Ortho to refer me).

I think it's going to be difficult for me to find an Ortho in my state, that will refer me outside of my state (I live in the worst state: so many restrictions on where you can get your health/dental care and who you can get it from etc...  there's honestly like zero freedom of choice & options, it's terrible). For example, I've already asked a few practices simply about referrals and they all stated that they only refer IN state...   like come on, what am I supposed to do now?!

Does anyone know if you can get an Ortho out of state or better yet, does anyone know an Ortho that will be able to refer me to Gunson? (I don't mind paying for the referral, I just need to make it happen)

So many hoops just to get a consult is a turn off for real - healthcare in this country is a joke. (just let me pay to see who I want to see)

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4034
  • Karma: 426
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2018, 02:58:42 PM »
@Kavan: Cheers m8 and thank you! ^ _ ^

@Haven: Thank you for clarifying this. So my next issue is finding an Ortho who will give me a referral but I don't know how any of this works (firstly, getting an Ortho and second, getting an Ortho to refer me).

I think it's going to be difficult for me to find an Ortho in my state, that will refer me outside of my state (I live in the worst state: so many restrictions on where you can get your health/dental care and who you can get it from etc...  there's honestly like zero freedom of choice & options, it's terrible). For example, I've already asked a few practices simply about referrals and they all stated that they only refer IN state...   like come on, what am I supposed to do now?!

Does anyone know if you can get an Ortho out of state or better yet, does anyone know an Ortho that will be able to refer me to Gunson? (I don't mind paying for the referral, I just need to make it happen)

So many hoops just to get a consult is a turn off for real - healthcare in this country is a joke. (just let me pay to see who I want to see)

Maybe you could try consulting with Mark Urata MD, DDS. Not sure but it's said that he studied with Kawamoto who wrote that book (you cited) on all the types of genios out there. Urata is maxfax, does cranio facial stuff and PS so you would NOT need any referral from an ortho to see him. IF he studied with Kawamoto long ENOUGH, maybe he's got more of a grip on all the esoteric types of genios that maybe Gunson does not do.  Now I don't profess to know all the types of genios Gunson does but every ceph displacement diagram I see, he's doing the basic sliding genio and to the best of my knowledge prefers to get the most of the chin point out via the BSSO advancement and likes the more modest genios. Like I've never seen any of the more esoteric genios in his plans BUT then again, I can't say I've seen a very large sampling of his plans. Just that every one I see has the sliding (up) genio that he keeps modest because the folks who get them are also  getting pretty much the FULL maxfax.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

ditterbo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
  • Karma: 37
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2018, 03:30:44 PM »
You don't need a referral explicitly TO Gunson.  Should be just an ortho recommending max facs surgery, and the surgeon in particular doesn't matter. That was my experience in consulting with Gunson and other max facs in the US.

haven

  • Private
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 11
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2018, 03:36:54 PM »
There's also a fellow in San Francisco who gets mentions here. Deschamps Braley. He does a wide array of oral procedures including isolated genios so maybe consider that. You don't need a referal letter. There more mentions of other surgeons on here. You just have to dig. Kavan is right on Gunsons approach to genios. At least going off the forum. He doesn't seem to do large movements like what you're looking for. At most, I read one patient was suggested 7mm (no jaw surgery).

Maybe see if you can get a general referal letter that outlines your concerns from a doctor (bite, airway, profile).

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4034
  • Karma: 426
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2018, 03:58:14 PM »
You don't need a referral explicitly TO Gunson.  Should be just an ortho recommending max facs surgery, and the surgeon in particular doesn't matter. That was my experience in consulting with Gunson and other max facs in the US.

That's correct but 'Reality' does not have an ortho (maybe doesn't need one for teeth). So I suggested a possibility where no ortho middleman is needed.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

Reality

  • Private
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: 15
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2018, 03:38:07 AM »
Maybe you could try consulting with Mark Urata MD, DDS. Not sure but it's said that he studied with Kawamoto who wrote that book (you cited) on all the types of genios out there. Urata is maxfax, does cranio facial stuff and PS so you would NOT need any referral from an ortho to see him. IF he studied with Kawamoto long ENOUGH, maybe he's got more of a grip on all the esoteric types of genios that maybe Gunson does not do.  Now I don't profess to know all the types of genios Gunson does but every ceph displacement diagram I see, he's doing the basic sliding genio and to the best of my knowledge prefers to get the most of the chin point out via the BSSO advancement and likes the more modest genios. Like I've never seen any of the more esoteric genios in his plans BUT then again, I can't say I've seen a very large sampling of his plans. Just that every one I see has the sliding (up) genio that he keeps modest because the folks who get them are also  getting pretty much the FULL maxfax.

@Kavan: Prime point relating to Gunson & his scope of Genioplasty technique (honestly makes me think that trouble of a consult isn't worth it). I've just put in an attempt for an Ortho, so waiting to see if anything transpires.

Regarding Urata, yes thank you -I've a consult setup with him in the coming months.

@Haven: Yes, I've been suggested this surgeon numerous times now but I find it slightly odd considering the main focus of his work. Has anyone here actually had surgery or a consult with him - if yes, feel free to PM me with your experience (Also, I'm curious about his price with respect to sliding genioplasty: it's been mentioned that it's in the same league as Gunson but I've not seen/heard anything price related to his isolated SG cases)   

Cheers,


haven

  • Private
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 11
Re: From implants to Sliding Genioplasty - Questions
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2018, 07:14:48 AM »
You might want to ask some1afterall & ditterbro. They've both consulted with him. Theres also Bobbit who has told me he's actually seen him work. I live near SF but have never seen him or I'd give you my input.

There was a post by a girl who had a genioplasty with him on realself who said it cost 14k. Take that with a grain of salt though.

If there's a policy on placing prices let me know and I'll remove it.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 07:27:31 AM by haven »