Author Topic: s**t BEST DOC IN CANADA SAYS I NEED RE-DO OF MY BIMAX --PLEASE VOTE ON MY OPTION  (Read 10978 times)

Dogmatix

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Semantics, but yes.

Just meaning, there are surgeons who truely mess up and do things where the consensus is that it's bad practise.

forwardgrowth

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In a perfect world what I really wish could happen is the following:

use sarpe to expand my upper jaw

use distractor on mandible to widen my lower jaw.

then move both jaws forward with lower jaw coming more forward.

Why the f**k can't this be done? It would create space for my tongue on the transverse axis and anterior posterior space. I realize my tongue moves with the lower jaw so I might still have some posterior anterior constriction but at least there would greater space at the back.

If anyone knows of a doc who can do this type of work let me know.

Why would you want your lower jaw to come more forward aesthetic or functional benefit?

Lazlo

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Why would you want your lower jaw to come more forward aesthetic or functional benefit?


functional benefit to create more space for my tongue. But of course it would look better too.

forwardgrowth

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functional benefit to create more space for my tongue. But of course it would look better too.

So you would want a slight underbite?, rami malek know for having a great jaw and has a slight underbite as well

Lazlo

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So you would want a slight underbite?, rami malek know for having a great jaw and has a slight underbite as well

no i would then have my upper jaw brought forward so I don't have an underbite.

PloskoPlus

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no i would then have my upper jaw brought forward so I don't have an underbite.
I don't think you need it any more forward.  CCW rotated in place, if not with setback.

Post bimax

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I don't think you need it any more forward.  CCW rotated in place, if not with setback.

The LF1 advancement could help with his tongue space issue whereas I think just ccw-r might not.

ODog

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If Caminiti’s PLAN is good, and it makes perfect sense for your unique case and face, I have no reason to believe his surgical skills or competency won’t give you the result you’re looking for. Although I may be biased because I got a good result from a Canadian surgeon, I think ruling out Canadian surgeons should mostly be based on whether the plan is good or bad, not necessarily the surgical skills. I could be wrong.

At this stage you need to focus on what will simply be the best plan for you. Focus on surgeons later.

These are your options:

Linear advancement:
1.Conservative linear bi-max to get a slightly stronger upper and lower jaw without risking chimp lip.

2. Aggressive linear bi-max to get a much stronger lower jaw but risking chimp lip (Caminiti’s plan).

CCW-r
3. CCW-r plus bsso to create enough overjet to get a moderate advancement of the lower jaw while leaving the upper jaw where it is, negating any potential adverse aesthetic outcome of the upper jaw (Plosko’s recommendation).
 
4. CCW-r plus bi-max to get the STRONGEST lower jaw advancement possible, but also a strong upper jaw advancement which, again, puts you at risk for chimp lip.

You need to figure out a few things:
-What’s the position of your upper jaw? Like SNA angle? Is your upper lip contour enough or can it be improved? What’s the limit you can advance the upper without getting a convex lip?

-What’s the position of your lower jaw? How much advancement do you need for a satisfactory result, how much do you need for an ideal result?

Then weigh all these facts in with what you desire to get out of surgery, whether that be a conservative or strong result, to go with a more cost effective surgeon or not, etc.

Start ruling out each option one by one until you arrive at the best plan. For example, it seems like Caminiti is offering you option 2. So get him (and other surgeons of course) to explain to you very clearly his rationale for why he thinks an extra 9 mm lefort on an already advanced upper jaw by 6 mm will not result in chimp lip. If he’s vague or brushes off the concern, it’s a bad sign.

If he says something like well your upper lip is still pretty flat and could use some more projection, then you can consider it. It sounds crazy with his offering 9 mm, but it’s a possibility. I was warned by many on this forum that I was at great risk for chimp lip but my surgeon did not think so at all and it turns out he was right. Bring pictures of chimp lip cases to Caminiti so he fully understands what you mean. If he gives you a strong rationale for why you won’t get a chimp lip, option 4 may also be on the table for you. I will say, however, I agree with the others that his plan seems too extreme.

If he concedes that a chimp lip is an unfortunate possibility, and this is unacceptable to you, you only have option 1 or 3 left, etc.

Lazlo

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If Caminiti’s PLAN is good, and it makes perfect sense for your unique case and face, I have no reason to believe his surgical skills or competency won’t give you the result you’re looking for. Although I may be biased because I got a good result from a Canadian surgeon, I think ruling out Canadian surgeons should mostly be based on whether the plan is good or bad, not necessarily the surgical skills. I could be wrong.

At this stage you need to focus on what will simply be the best plan for you. Focus on surgeons later.

These are your options:

Linear advancement:
1.Conservative linear bi-max to get a slightly stronger upper and lower jaw without risking chimp lip.

2. Aggressive linear bi-max to get a much stronger lower jaw but risking chimp lip (Caminiti’s plan).

CCW-r
3. CCW-r plus bsso to create enough overjet to get a moderate advancement of the lower jaw while leaving the upper jaw where it is, negating any potential adverse aesthetic outcome of the upper jaw (Plosko’s recommendation).
 
4. CCW-r plus bi-max to get the STRONGEST lower jaw advancement possible, but also a strong upper jaw advancement which, again, puts you at risk for chimp lip.

You need to figure out a few things:
-What’s the position of your upper jaw? Like SNA angle? Is your upper lip contour enough or can it be improved? What’s the limit you can advance the upper without getting a convex lip?

-What’s the position of your lower jaw? How much advancement do you need for a satisfactory result, how much do you need for an ideal result?

Then weigh all these facts in with what you desire to get out of surgery, whether that be a conservative or strong result, to go with a more cost effective surgeon or not, etc.

Start ruling out each option one by one until you arrive at the best plan. For example, it seems like Caminiti is offering you option 2. So get him (and other surgeons of course) to explain to you very clearly his rationale for why he thinks an extra 9 mm lefort on an already advanced upper jaw by 6 mm will not result in chimp lip. If he’s vague or brushes off the concern, it’s a bad sign.

If he says something like well your upper lip is still pretty flat and could use some more projection, then you can consider it. It sounds crazy with his offering 9 mm, but it’s a possibility. I was warned by many on this forum that I was at great risk for chimp lip but my surgeon did not think so at all and it turns out he was right. Bring pictures of chimp lip cases to Caminiti so he fully understands what you mean. If he gives you a strong rationale for why you won’t get a chimp lip, option 4 may also be on the table for you. I will say, however, I agree with the others that his plan seems too extreme.

If he concedes that a chimp lip is an unfortunate possibility, and this is unacceptable to you, you only have option 1 or 3 left, etc.

Thanks O-Dog, you're right, this gives me a good strategy with which to rule out options. f**k, I don't really want to see Caminetti again since he was already brushing off my concerns when I was there in consultation with him. He seemed like super busy and not that interested in having a discussion with me. He also had a resident in the room which I found annoying.

Hmmm..... maybe I'll see Tocchio again.

introspect160

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Hi Lazlo,

I consulted with Tocchio about CCW + bsso last year and was scheduled for surgery this month, but I backed out. For one, I had read some studies that expounded the instability of the CCW rotation with the presence of TMJ issues. I definitely have TMJ issues and I felt like Tocchio was brushing them off without thoroughly assessing joint health. Given that my TMJ issues are stable I decided it wasn't worth the risk of making them worse. Also was ready to do a consult with Gunson, but they wanted me to go through a convoluted process of visiting an orthodontist and getting a bunch of scans, so I backed out. I'm not getting a CBCT done for an initial assessment--don't need that radiation exposure.

It's too bad, because my facial profile is really f**cked up. I hate it, but I've just resigned to the fact that medical technology hasn't advanced to the point yet where the surgery that I need is high-confidence/high-stability. When I save up some money, I'll likely get the best camouflage genioplasty money can buy and then forget about it. I can totally related to the confidence issues etc, but it's better than have TMJ pain for the rest of my life or never being able to bite into a steak again. I'm hoping that when I'm 45 they'll have made some advancements by then and I'll be able to get it done.  PM me if you wanna talk more. I'm in Toronto (sounds like you are too). Also have thought about going to see Mesami at Yorkville Oral Surgery. Have you talked to her?

Lefortitude

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Hi Lazlo,

I consulted with Tocchio about CCW + bsso last year and was scheduled for surgery this month, but I backed out. For one, I had read some studies that expounded the instability of the CCW rotation with the presence of TMJ issues. I definitely have TMJ issues and I felt like Tocchio was brushing them off without thoroughly assessing joint health. Given that my TMJ issues are stable I decided it wasn't worth the risk of making them worse. Also was ready to do a consult with Gunson, but they wanted me to go through a convoluted process of visiting an orthodontist and getting a bunch of scans, so I backed out. I'm not getting a CBCT done for an initial assessment--don't need that radiation exposure.

It's too bad, because my facial profile is really f**cked up. I hate it, but I've just resigned to the fact that medical technology hasn't advanced to the point yet where the surgery that I need is high-confidence/high-stability. When I save up some money, I'll likely get the best camouflage genioplasty money can buy and then forget about it. I can totally related to the confidence issues etc, but it's better than have TMJ pain for the rest of my life or never being able to bite into a steak again. I'm hoping that when I'm 45 they'll have made some advancements by then and I'll be able to get it done.  PM me if you wanna talk more. I'm in Toronto (sounds like you are too). Also have thought about going to see Mesami at Yorkville Oral Surgery. Have you talked to her?

Sounds paranoid.  I bet you have no problem with lithium-ion batteries sitting next to your nuts all day.

By contrast from a CBCT scan that orthos do would increase your risk of exposure-induced death by cancer increases by a fraction of the order 10^(-7) or  1/10,000,000 (https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12903-018-0592-5)

There are much better reasons to be apprehensive about jaw surgery than the radiation from a cbct scan.

kavan

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Hi Lazlo,

I consulted with Tocchio about CCW + bsso last year and was scheduled for surgery this month, but I backed out. For one, I had read some studies that expounded the instability of the CCW rotation with the presence of TMJ issues. I definitely have TMJ issues and I felt like Tocchio was brushing them off without thoroughly assessing joint health. Given that my TMJ issues are stable I decided it wasn't worth the risk of making them worse. Also was ready to do a consult with Gunson, but they wanted me to go through a convoluted process of visiting an orthodontist and getting a bunch of scans, so I backed out. I'm not getting a CBCT done for an initial assessment--don't need that radiation exposure.

It's too bad, because my facial profile is really f**cked up. I hate it, but I've just resigned to the fact that medical technology hasn't advanced to the point yet where the surgery that I need is high-confidence/high-stability. When I save up some money, I'll likely get the best camouflage genioplasty money can buy and then forget about it. I can totally related to the confidence issues etc, but it's better than have TMJ pain for the rest of my life or never being able to bite into a steak again. I'm hoping that when I'm 45 they'll have made some advancements by then and I'll be able to get it done.  PM me if you wanna talk more. I'm in Toronto (sounds like you are too). Also have thought about going to see Mesami at Yorkville Oral Surgery. Have you talked to her?

Irrational, self negating response. If you 'definitely' have TMJ issues, then you definitely need the scans to assess joint health especially if you are wanting CCW that could put excess pressure on someone with TMJ issues.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

GJ

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lithium-ion batteries sitting next to your nuts all day.

Well, that's not healthy so...
Millimeters are miles on the face.

Lefortitude

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Well, that's not healthy so...

Yeah, for clarification I was talking about our smart phones which sit in our pockets all day.

I always find it comical when people have no problem going through the airport scanners, flying, using smartphones etc etc. but then refuse to have a cbct scan for a medical consultation to check the state of their jaw joints.