Author Topic: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?  (Read 2817 times)

eastcoastian1

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What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« on: February 09, 2022, 05:48:00 PM »
Came across the before and after below and gotta say, she looked better before. She’s got that “chimp” look I see sometimes after surgery. Is this caused simply by over advancement of the maxilla or does the lower jaw come into play as well?

https://imgur.com/a/2SylXKP

GJ

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2022, 06:31:03 PM »
That's really unfortunate. She's going to hate that result, and they will tell her it's swelling...
Millimeters are miles on the face.

eastcoastian1

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2022, 06:41:04 PM »
That's really unfortunate. She's going to hate that result, and they will tell her it's swelling...

6 months later so not much swelling left I'd assume. Is this just the result of over advancement of the maxilla?

GJ

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2022, 08:01:57 PM »
Is this just the result of over advancement of the maxilla?

Pretty much.
Millimeters are miles on the face.

kavan

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2022, 04:26:15 PM »
That type of look is usually associated with SLEEP APNEA cases when they advance both jaws equally and also when INSURANCE is paying for a sleep apnea surgery. It is referred to as LINEAR ADVANCEMENT. Linear advancement means NO rotation at the maxilla (eg. CCW)...just advancement along what ever inclination the person's palatal plane is relative to a horizontal plane. The maxilla is advanced AS MUCH as the mandible needs to be advanced in order to open the airway. So the maxilla gets 'over advanced' (aesthetically) because it has to be advanced as much as the mandible because linear advancement is equal advancement of both jaws whether or not the maxilla would look better if not advanced as much as the mandible. I assume the 2 cases up here (there's another one on a different string) that people don't like the aesthetics of are probably linear advancement INSURANCE CASES for sleep apnea where the surgery is free or low cost.
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eastcoastian1

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2022, 07:28:31 PM »
That type of look is usually associated with SLEEP APNEA cases when they advance both jaws equally and also when INSURANCE is paying for a sleep apnea surgery. It is referred to as LINEAR ADVANCEMENT. Linear advancement means NO rotation at the maxilla (eg. CCW)...just advancement along what ever inclination the person's palatal plane is relative to a horizontal plane. The maxilla is advanced AS MUCH as the mandible needs to be advanced in order to open the airway. So the maxilla gets 'over advanced' (aesthetically) because it has to be advanced as much as the mandible because linear advancement is equal advancement of both jaws whether or not the maxilla would look better if not advanced as much as the mandible. I assume the 2 cases up here (there's another one on a different string) that people don't like the aesthetics of are probably linear advancement INSURANCE CASES for sleep apnea where the surgery is free or low cost.

Spot on, Kavan!

The patient above DID in fact mention they got the surgery primarily because of sleep apnea issues. Great deduction!

kavan

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2022, 09:05:53 PM »
Spot on, Kavan!

The patient above DID in fact mention they got the surgery primarily because of sleep apnea issues. Great deduction!

Private pay, if someone has lots of cash, then something like that is less of a worry, even if apnea case.
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ruby

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2022, 02:26:36 PM »
I actually think she does look better after - but I agree that she seems to have been over-advanced and the result is a bit jarring.

thedude

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2022, 03:54:20 AM »
Is this caused simply by over advancement of the maxilla or does the lower jaw come into play as well?

https://imgur.com/a/2SylXKP

I do wonder if bringing the lower jaw or chin a little farther forward or down might help balance it out a little.

kavan

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2022, 01:05:17 PM »
I do wonder if bringing the lower jaw or chin a little farther forward or down might help balance it out a little.

No, not really because it's the act of trying to 'balance' with an IMBALANCE  creates more (aesthetic) imbalance. So, it would resolve to having an overly protrusive maxilla and also an overly protrusive mandible as in more of an 'ape face' look.

Also, if you read my prior post EXPLAINING that this was an insurance SLEEP APNEA surgery where both jaws are advanced EQUALLY ( linear advancement with no rotation), that's a type of surgery where they prioritize putting the lower jaw where it should be to open the airway and consider the maxilla being 'over advanced' a TRADE-OFF (for being able to sleep). Yet AVOIDANCE for that sort of aesthetic defect to the maxilla/upper lip region often is a SELF PAY procedure because it's something that's more involved than what INSURANCE wants to pay for. That is to say the more involved surgery to mitigate the chances of over advancement to maxilla is CCW-r which not all insurance doctors do (or would/could get paid by insurance to perform).
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thedude

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2022, 04:45:52 PM »
No, not really because it's the act of trying to 'balance' with an IMBALANCE  creates more (aesthetic) imbalance. So, it would resolve to having an overly protrusive maxilla and also an overly protrusive mandible as in more of an 'ape face' look.

Also, if you read my prior post EXPLAINING that this was an insurance SLEEP APNEA surgery where both jaws are advanced EQUALLY ( linear advancement with no rotation), that's a type of surgery where they prioritize putting the lower jaw where it should be to open the airway and consider the maxilla being 'over advanced' a TRADE-OFF (for being able to sleep). Yet AVOIDANCE for that sort of aesthetic defect to the maxilla/upper lip region often is a SELF PAY procedure because it's something that's more involved than what INSURANCE wants to pay for. That is to say the more involved surgery to mitigate the chances of over advancement to maxilla is CCW-r which not all insurance doctors do (or would/could get paid by insurance to perform).

I hear you. That said, I could add a couple other considerations.

First, some doctors that do a lot of sleep apnea surgeries have told me they are finding that upper jaw advancement is actually more helpful for sleep apnea than lower jaw advancement. Although advancing the lower jaw looks nice on the xray where you see a nice big airway, the actual part of the airway that is obstructed is often higher up in the nasal region so that big airway isn't serving any purpose. I've been reading a lot of blogs online of people that had sleep apnea surgery with CCW rotation to limit upper jaw advancement where they advanced the upper jaw around 6mm and lower jaw around 12mm and their sleep studies didn't really improve.

Second, if you already have a flat occlusal plane, doing CCW rotation will often make the chin point upward and give the midface a kind of sunken in look. The eyes point slightly downward and then the lower jaw and chin is now pointing slightly upward and you get this look I would describe as "cross faced." It's especially problematic if you do not have a recessed chin.

Here is a good example of someone that naturally had a backwards occlusal plane and a prominent chin and did clockwise rotation to look better. Now I will say probably the cross faced look is better than the chimp lip look, but it's a case where you kind of need to pick you poison.

I did a consultation with Dr. Gunson and he recommended straight advancement for me even though I was a sleep apnea case for exactly that reason. But I do agree with you this girl (from the original post) should have had CCW to minimize advancement of the upper jaw.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 04:54:15 PM by thedude »

thedude

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2022, 04:51:26 PM »
accidental repost

kavan

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Re: What causes the “chimp” look after surgery?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2022, 10:49:47 PM »
I hear you. That said, I could add a couple other considerations.

First, some doctors that do a lot of sleep apnea surgeries have told me they are finding that upper jaw advancement is actually more helpful for sleep apnea than lower jaw advancement. Although advancing the lower jaw looks nice on the xray where you see a nice big airway, the actual part of the airway that is obstructed is often higher up in the nasal region so that big airway isn't serving any purpose. I've been reading a lot of blogs online of people that had sleep apnea surgery with CCW rotation to limit upper jaw advancement where they advanced the upper jaw around 6mm and lower jaw around 12mm and their sleep studies didn't really improve.

Second, if you already have a flat occlusal plane, doing CCW rotation will often make the chin point upward and give the midface a kind of sunken in look. The eyes point slightly downward and then the lower jaw and chin is now pointing slightly upward and you get this look I would describe as "cross faced." It's especially problematic if you do not have a recessed chin.

Here is a good example of someone that naturally had a backwards occlusal plane and a prominent chin and did clockwise rotation to look better. Now I will say probably the cross faced look is better than the chimp lip look, but it's a case where you kind of need to pick you poison.

I did a consultation with Dr. Gunson and he recommended straight advancement for me even though I was a sleep apnea case for exactly that reason. But I do agree with you this girl (from the original post) should have had CCW to minimize advancement of the upper jaw.

I totally understand the stuff about the flat occlusal plane which is contrary to any benefit from CCW and can even kick up a detriment and also that CCW is not for everyone and some people are better candidates for linear advancement and/or CW and also that max advancement is of benefit to the upper airway. But ya, my entry was in reference to the photo of the gal with the overly advanced maxilla.
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