Author Topic: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson  (Read 18015 times)

beautyislife

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2019, 04:01:58 AM »
I've visited a lot of surgeons and still think Gunson has been the most technical/informative/helpful by far. My experiences with him line up with what the reviews say, but I haven't had surgery so my opinion isn't as important.

PloskoPlus

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2019, 04:47:35 AM »
I've visited a lot of surgeons and still think Gunson has been the most technical/informative/helpful by far. My experiences with him line up with what the reviews say, but I haven't had surgery so my opinion isn't as important.

I think he's simply operating at the limit of his ability.  It's one thing to be able to draw up fancy plans, and another to execute them.

beautyislife

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2019, 04:54:11 AM »
I think he's simply operating at the limit of his ability.  It's one thing to be able to draw up fancy plans, and another to execute them.

Would you do surgery with him?

PloskoPlus

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2019, 05:36:03 AM »
Would you do surgery with him?
No.  Although the others may be even worse.  Jaw surgery is just a risky business.

ghiggson90

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2019, 07:16:41 AM »
Assuming (big if) Gunson is aware of this or even involved, I think what makes this all the more disappointing is that he is, at a minimum, an above-average surgeon, with many happy patients, has no shortage of business and makes millions a year. He doesn't need to do this. Of course, he makes thousands off a single surgery, and to the extent a single bad review turns away a single surgery, one can see the enormous incentives to suppress bad reviews or put up positive ones.

I'd agree he is overrated compared to say, a Wolford, who has pioneered multiple surgical techniques, like the step osteotomy, the modified BSSO cut, the use of porous HA for grafts, mentalis resuspension technique, etc., and is revered by other OMFS. Gunson is barely cited in the literature, but probably produces good results frequently. The reviewer in question has, I think, a good result, which makes her disclosing the relationship all the more costless. "Yes, I work for him, but my face speaks for itself, and my Instagram shows that he actually did do a surgery on me and that it was successful."

I suspect Google is in bed with the businesses on its pages. It has watered down its review COI policies over the years, for example, employee reviews used to explicitly be prohibited, now it just says reviews should be "honest and unbiased." We are sorely lacking a citizens watchdog group to police unethical medical advertising. Nobody is really policing this with any degree of effectiveness. The use of other OMFS's patients photos, conflicted reviews, fake reviews, unverified or ambiguous claims about the volume of publications or surgeries, stock photos, claims like "top surgeon", the absence of disclaimers, etc. The unethical practices are rampant. Medical advertising should inform, not manipulate. Frankly, this site is probably what comes closest to a watchdog, though it's also highly imperfect.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 07:36:43 AM by ghiggson90 »

kavan

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2019, 10:35:17 AM »
It actually has nothing to do with the fact that her real name is used. The nature of the advertising is that the relationship, business or personal must be disclosed. Also when people see the reviews they, dont know who she is, they also dont know that Hanna McComb is Gunson’s daughter or that Jenae works for him, its just wrong and its intentional.

Well, personally, it's hard for me to establish willful intent on his part from this Jenae not knowing any better and possibility of his not realizing that was done. However if those with legal degrees want to establish willful intent on his part (or even hers), I have no objection to that discussion.

 I'll try to put this 'diplomatically' but I DID check out her social media stuff and she just strikes me as a 'Me so Pretty...look at me.' type as in someone hired for LOOKS as opposed to 'smarts', in particular in reference to the ins and outs of guidelines for employee disclosure. I totally agree it was not a smart thing for her to do and a more knowledgeable employee would have known better at least IMO. But she did not strike me as the type who would have known better, particularly with reference to specific FTC guidelines of direct disclosure of association. However, by her using her real name that could be found in direct association as employee of Gunson, I don't know if I'd say she was willfully hiding any association either.

In general, my advice--or at least guideline I use--is to take reviews WITH A GRAIN OF SALT, in particular when it comes to venues where one is 'ONE AND DONE' with the review which is often the case with Google, YELP, rateMDS, VITALS and those types of places. Even applies to Real Self with the one and done reviews. Feedback on doctors is better garnered when discussion of such can be ongoing. For example a message/discussion board such as this.
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Lefortitude

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2019, 11:28:41 AM »
I have a theory that the recent influx of positive reviews has been in response to Kates very vocal expression of her disappointing experience with her surgery with Gunson.  I say this because Nancy Christensen (who has been with A&G for like 35 years), Gunsons daughter and son in law, and Jenae all posted positive reviews in the past few months, as well as a few ortho and dental professionals as well.  A disproportionate number of possitive reviews over the past 3 months vs a practice that has been around for decades.

What still strikes me as odd, is the negativity bias that is common in online reviews.  Often 100 happy patients yields one happy review, but 100 unhappy patients yield 200 unhappy reviews.  This is especially true for an oral surgeon, since a bad result can really ruin someones QOL.

If Gunson does 3-5 jaw surgeries/week, and has for his 17 year practice, where are all the unhappy reviews at?

kavan

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2019, 02:40:07 PM »

I have looked into this. Under the law, this is misleading advertising, both on the state and Federal Level.  The Federal Trade Commission internet endorsement rules CLEARLY and unequivocally target this practice as unethical and misleading. It’s not just employees that have posted reviews for Gunson without identifying the business or personal relationship, he has his own daughter and her husband posting positive reviews on Google.  Jenae has placed reviews on every major sites, as if she were assigned to do some social media marketing because she is an internet influencer with 20,000 followers.  Also posted are a number of reviews from other staff, and from a number of orthodontists with him he works. ALL of it is misleading, unethical and improper—and its revealing that he is engaging in such tactics.

Here's the FTC site where they go over example of the GUIDELINES.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking#onlinereviewprograms

They don't list the specific laws. But they say they don't monitor this stuff themselves but give option to file a complaint and imply they will evaluate case by case.

Here's one that seems to apply to this situation but with EXCEPTION that we don't know (or do we know for sure?) IF Gunson has a policy precluding employees from making reviews and not disclosing relationship.

Q: "Our company’s policy says that employees shouldn’t post positive reviews online about our products without clearly disclosing their relationship to the company. All of our employees agree to abide by this policy when they are hired. But we have several thousand people working here and we can’t monitor what they all do on their own computers and other devices when they aren’t at work. Are we liable if an employee posts a review of one of our products, either on our company website or on a social media site and doesn’t disclose that relationship?"

A: "It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect you to monitor every social media posting by all of your employees. However, you should establish a formal program to remind employees periodically of your policy, especially if the company encourages employees to share their opinions about your products. Also, if you learn that an employee has posted a review on the company’s website or a social media site without adequately disclosing his or her relationship to the company, you should remind them of your company policy and ask them to remove that review or adequately disclose that they’re an employee."


Also from the site:

"The Guides, at their core, reflect the basic truth-in-advertising principle that endorsements must be honest and not misleading. An endorsement must reflect the honest opinion of the endorser and can’t be used to make a claim that the product’s marketer couldn’t legally make."

IDK. Clearly, one could make an argument for non-disclosure. But I don't know where that goes with the FTC when it's not that clear cut that she's being dishonest, getting 'paid' (in some way) by him to put it up there or what's she saying doesn't reflect her honest opinion. It just looks like this was her honest opinion BUT she should have disclosed the relationship. But perhaps didn't know any better to do that. However, it does call into question whether or not Gunson has a POLICY aimed at PRECLUDING reviews of him by family, friends and employees. Now the answer to that could be 'NO, he doesn't'. (I don't know if he does or doesn't). But maybe he will get wind of this thread and clarify his policy of employees leaving reviews in absence of disclosing the relationship.

A really CLEAR CUT case, years back, was with 'LifeStyle Lift' where they had TONS of complaints about them. The Attorney General most definitely found non disclosure documents which were evidence that employees 'job' was to get on internet and post glowing reviews and counter patients complaining about their outcomes. Webmasters would also sent IP info that the glowing reviews were coming from the LSL office. So, I guess it would depend on the volume of complaints, webmasters themselves having enough of the problem coming from the office of the company where volume of complaints dovetail on FTC and AG looking more into it. In their case they were BLATANTLY DECEPTIVE, workers were required to give fake reviews and PRETEND to be happy patients and FIRED or threatened with legal action if they gave their honest opinion about the company.




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kavan

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2019, 03:01:42 PM »
I have a theory that the recent influx of positive reviews has been in response to Kates very vocal expression of her disappointing experience with her surgery with Gunson.  I say this because Nancy Christensen (who has been with A&G for like 35 years), Gunsons daughter and son in law, and Jenae all posted positive reviews in the past few months, as well as a few ortho and dental professionals as well.  A disproportionate number of possitive reviews over the past 3 months vs a practice that has been around for decades.

What still strikes me as odd, is the negativity bias that is common in online reviews.  Often 100 happy patients yields one happy review, but 100 unhappy patients yield 200 unhappy reviews.  This is especially true for an oral surgeon, since a bad result can really ruin someones QOL.

If Gunson does 3-5 jaw surgeries/week, and has for his 17 year practice, where are all the unhappy reviews at?

Well ya. There has been an uptick of positive reviews subsequently where they resolve to associates in some way or the other. It's like people close to him could feel impelled to do so (share their positive but honest opinions) and could/would do so in absence of his 'putting them up to it'.
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PloskoPlus

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2019, 03:12:14 PM »
I have a theory that the recent influx of positive reviews has been in response to Kates very vocal expression of her disappointing experience with her surgery with Gunson.  I say this because Nancy Christensen (who has been with A&G for like 35 years), Gunsons daughter and son in law, and Jenae all posted positive reviews in the past few months, as well as a few ortho and dental professionals as well.  A disproportionate number of possitive reviews over the past 3 months vs a practice that has been around for decades.

What still strikes me as odd, is the negativity bias that is common in online reviews.  Often 100 happy patients yields one happy review, but 100 unhappy patients yield 200 unhappy reviews.  This is especially true for an oral surgeon, since a bad result can really ruin someones QOL.

If Gunson does 3-5 jaw surgeries/week, and has for his 17 year practice, where are all the unhappy reviews at?
He hasn't done that many jaw surgeries. More than most surgeons his age, but not that many.

DRIVVEN

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2019, 01:56:20 AM »
Here's the FTC site where they go over example of the GUIDELINES.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking#onlinereviewprograms

They don't list the specific laws. But they say they don't monitor this stuff themselves but give option to file a complaint and imply they will evaluate case by case.

Here's one that seems to apply to this situation but with EXCEPTION that we don't know (or do we know for sure?) IF Gunson has a policy precluding employees from making reviews and not disclosing relationship.

Q: "Our company’s policy says that employees shouldn’t post positive reviews online about our products without clearly disclosing their relationship to the company. All of our employees agree to abide by this policy when they are hired. But we have several thousand people working here and we can’t monitor what they all do on their own computers and other devices when they aren’t at work. Are we liable if an employee posts a review of one of our products, either on our company website or on a social media site and doesn’t disclose that relationship?"

A: "It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect you to monitor every social media posting by all of your employees. However, you should establish a formal program to remind employees periodically of your policy, especially if the company encourages employees to share their opinions about your products. Also, if you learn that an employee has posted a review on the company’s website or a social media site without adequately disclosing his or her relationship to the company, you should remind them of your company policy and ask them to remove that review or adequately disclose that they’re an employee."


Also from the site:

"The Guides, at their core, reflect the basic truth-in-advertising principle that endorsements must be honest and not misleading. An endorsement must reflect the honest opinion of the endorser and can’t be used to make a claim that the product’s marketer couldn’t legally make."

IDK. Clearly, one could make an argument for non-disclosure. But I don't know where that goes with the FTC when it's not that clear cut that she's being dishonest, getting 'paid' (in some way) by him to put it up there or what's she saying doesn't reflect her honest opinion. It just looks like this was her honest opinion BUT she should have disclosed the relationship. But perhaps didn't know any better to do that. However, it does call into question whether or not Gunson has a POLICY aimed at PRECLUDING reviews of him by family, friends and employees. Now the answer to that could be 'NO, he doesn't'. (I don't know if he does or doesn't). But maybe he will get wind of this thread and clarify his policy of employees leaving reviews in absence of disclosing the relationship.

A really CLEAR CUT case, years back, was with 'LifeStyle Lift' where they had TONS of complaints about them. The Attorney General most definitely found non disclosure documents which were evidence that employees 'job' was to get on internet and post glowing reviews and counter patients complaining about their outcomes. Webmasters would also sent IP info that the glowing reviews were coming from the LSL office. So, I guess it would depend on the volume of complaints, webmasters themselves having enough of the problem coming from the office of the company where volume of complaints dovetail on FTC and AG looking more into it. In their case they were BLATANTLY DECEPTIVE, workers were required to give fake reviews and PRETEND to be happy patients and FIRED or threatened with legal action if they gave their honest opinion about the company.

I was on a panel with a senior FTC enforcement officer and authored the comments to certain FTC Green guides. I can tell you these reviews go against the guidelines.  Whether the FTC will get busy with a very small medical practice that is located way outside  any metropolitan area is a different question. It WRONG, plain and simple and does not turn on the intent of the jenae.  Also IMO, they engage in a number of misleading marketing practices. First they take before pictures with a big chunk of wax bite in the mouth that makes the improvement post-op look better. Also the California Dental Board prohibits use of the name of a legacy dentist who no longer is active in the practice after one year. (teaching alone is not active). Arnett has been inactive for several years. The website is misleading as it makes it looks like Arnett is still an active surgeon seeing patients. It lists Dr. Arnett has having privileges at cottage hospital, when cottage has told me he is retired. If you take the Arnett out of Arnett Gunson, the picture looks totally different. Dr. Gunson was a literature major and is not an innovator, and does not publish in peer review/prestigious academic publications. He is not a researcher and has published almost nothing as a lead author.  His lectures are mostly to orthos regarding lips.  I think he had a good mentor and fell into an incredible opportunity but now lacks a surgical partner. I am betting things will reveal themselves in time. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on here folks. If you believe for one minute gunson does not know that Jenae is posting these reviews, think again. He reviews, likes and dislikes his own yelp reviews. And he personally returns the favor of posting a positive review  of the orthodontists that support him.  He is in the social media game himself.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 01:11:36 AM by DRIVVEN »

DRIVVEN

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2019, 01:58:25 AM »
Well ya. There has been an uptick of positive reviews subsequently where they resolve to associates in some way or the other. It's like people close to him could feel impelled to do so (share their positive but honest opinions) and could/would do so in absence of his 'putting them up to it'.

Trust me, he puts them up to it.  I have personal knowledge of this.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 01:12:03 AM by DRIVVEN »

kavan

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2019, 09:13:06 AM »
I was on a panel with a senior FTC enforcement officer and authored the comments to certain FTC Green guides. I can tell you these reviews go against the guidelines.  Whether the FTC will get busy with a very small medical practice that is located way outside  any metropolitan area is a different question. It WRONG, plain and simple and does not turn on the intent of the jenae.  Also IMO, they engage in a number of misleading marketing practices. First they take before pictures with a big chunk of wax bite in the mouth that makes the improvement post-op look better. Also the California Dental Board prohibits use of the name of a legacy dentist who no longer is active in the practice after one year. (teaching alone is not active). Arnett has been inactive for several years. The website is misleading as it makes it looks like Arnett is still an active surgeon seeing patients. It lists Dr. Arnett has having privileges at cottage hospital, when cottage has told me he is retired. If you take the Arnett out of Arnett Gunson, the picture looks totally different. Dr. Gunson was a literature major and is not an innovator, and does not publish in academic publications. He is not a researcher and has published almost nothing as a lead author.  His lectures are mostly to orthos regarding lips.  I think he had a good mentor and fell into an incredible opportunity but now lacks a surgical partner. I am betting things will reveal themselves in time. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on here folks. If you believe for one minute gunson does not know that Jenae is posting these reviews, think again. He reviews, likes and dislikes his own yelp reviews. And he personally returns the favor of posting a positive review  of the orthodontists that support him.  He is in the social media game himself.

Well, as I said in my post and link to FTC guidelines, they give OPTION to FILE a COMPLAINT. You have one, are knowledgeable legally to buttress one, have information on him that counters general 'uncertainty' as to whether or not he puts his staff up to posting reviews.  It very much sounds you are in capacity to lodge a complaint with the FTC.
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Lefortitude

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2019, 04:16:02 PM »
sorry to hear that, i checked out wolford and he has  negative reviews

Surgeons are humans.  Wolford is one of the best in the world. A true innovator in TMJ dysfunction management and pathology. But he is human, and as the best in the world, hes dealing with some of the most difficult cases.  Human biodiversity is vast as f**k and any surgery has a certain level of uncertainty.

I was reading a paper the other day about a girl who was in for routine tooth extraction but had some artery structure running under the tooth. After extraction, she started bleeding like a gunshot wound and spent 2 weeks in the ICU. I bet she wrote a negative review.

ben from UK

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Re: Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2019, 07:16:31 PM »
That's how it works with every business. Also, most surgeons let their assistant do the surgery and only supervise. They have too much demand to do the surgery themselves.