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[InvisalignOnly]

it's like suddenly men are having to put in the effort to improve the way they look, and some of them are completely freaking out.

Exactly right! Both men and women are interested in looks (as well as personality, to an extent) when it comes to choosing a partner, it's not a conscious decision, this is how biology works for both genders. But over hundreds of years, men built up this narrative about how women don't care about looks, they aren't interested in sex (except if it's with a man they have an emotional connection with), they aren't 'visual', they like men with a sense of humour and a 'great personality' etc.

For hundreds of years, women were financially and physically dependent on men, they weren't allowed to choose their partners, weren't allowed to express their preferences for a mate. Now it's slowly changing and some men are panicking. There are two extreme responses: one is the 'incel' response i.e. women are only interested in extremely good looking men, how unfair this is and so on. The other one is to keep repeating the old mantra: only shallow / 'bad' women are interested in looks, nice women only care about 'personality'.

These narratives are both about men's insecurities, not about what women actually want. Women are human beings just like men are, they want an attractive partner that turns them on visually / emotionally / intellectually. It's quite simple really, we are all human and not that different from each other.

[PloskoPlus]

Exactly right! Both men and women are interested in looks (as well as personality, to an extent) when it comes to choosing a partner, it's not a conscious decision, this is how biology works for both genders. But over hundreds of years, men built up this narrative about how women don't care about looks, they aren't interested in sex (except if it's with a man they have an emotional connection with), they aren't 'visual', they like men with a sense of humour and a 'great personality' etc.

For hundreds of years, women were financially and physically dependent on men, they weren't allowed to choose their partners, weren't allowed to express their preferences for a mate. Now it's slowly changing and some men are panicking. There are two extreme responses: one is the 'incel' response i.e. women are only interested in extremely good looking men, how unfair this is and so on. The other one is to keep repeating the old mantra: only shallow / 'bad' women are interested in looks, nice women only care about 'personality'.

These narratives are both about men's insecurities, not about what women actually want. Women are human beings just like men are, they want an attractive partner that turns them on visually / emotionally / intellectually. It's quite simple really, we are all human and not that different from each other.

I agree. I also think now that women don’t need men to provide for them, the biggest winners will be alpha males and women will simply share them. And no, these men are not necessarily male models or have great personality or whatever.  They are simply men popular with women for whatever reason.

[Post bimax]

It's like incels seem to think women have it easy. They have no idea what women go through - the time, the effort, the expense - in order to look good. From when we are very young girls (like age 7), we are conditioned to believe our bodies and faces are flawed. We then purchase all these products, do all these treatments, in order to be presentable and attractive and try not to age. I could reel you off a long list of beauty chores - it's bloody high-maintenance being a woman! And it's like suddenly men are having to put in the effort to improve the way they look, and some of them are completely freaking out.

So this comes from the polar opposite experiences men and women have in the online dating sphere. Incels hear women complaining about how dating sucks or men suck etc, but an average looking woman on tinder will match with 95% of men and be showered with male attention. At the same time, it’s possible for an average looking man to go months without a single match because the women have their pick of highly attractive men. Women are easily able to ‘date upward’ in the online sphere, leaving average men in the dust.

I haven’t used Tinder in a few years since I have a girlfriend, but I’ve read that it’s even worse than it used to be. I also have perfectly normal looking and socially adjusted friends that haven’t been with a girl in years because they primarily used tinder/bumble to try to meet girls. I don’t know what it would be like out there for myself today if my girlfriend and I broke up. I’ve never had a problem with women in the past, but I could see how resentment could begin to set in after months of rejection and loneliness.

[InvisalignOnly]

I also have perfectly normal looking and socially adjusted friends that haven’t been with a girl in years because they primarily used tinder/bumble to try to meet girls. I don’t know what it would be like out there for myself today if my girlfriend and I broke up. I’ve never had a problem with women in the past, but I could see how resentment could begin to set in after months of rejection and loneliness.

So maybe instead of being 'resentful', they should try different kinds of dating if online dating does not work for them? Lazlo gave some really good examples, I think for the majority of men 'real life' dating works much better, no matter how popular online dating is nowadays. It's not enough to blame women for wanting to have casual sex with good looking men. If roles were reversed, for example if I realised I don't get any dates online because men only want to hook up with supermodels and I am not a supermodel, I would try to change strategies and try to meet men in different ways. I would not just sit around blaming men and feeling resentful.

[Post bimax]

So maybe instead of being 'resentful', they should try different kinds of dating if online dating does not work for them? Lazlo gave some really good examples, I think for the majority of men 'real life' dating works much better, no matter how popular online dating is nowadays. It's not enough to blame women for wanting to have casual sex with good looking men. If roles were reversed, for example if I realised I don't get any dates online because men only want to hook up with supermodels and I am not a supermodel, I would try to change strategies and try to meet men in different ways. I would not just sit around blaming men and feeling resentful.

Yes, I agree in-person flirting gives much higher returns for men. And for what it’s worth my friends are not resentful or ‘incel’ types. My point is that the pervasiveness of online dating has blown a massive rift in the way average men and women experience dating and that this is a major driver of male resentment.

It’s easy to say men should just go out in the world to meet women, but the social dynamic is different when the expectation is that the initial courtship will take place online. It’s really hard to explain to someone not of my generation or younger. Even simple things like calling someone on the phone (especially someone you’re interested in) instead of texting are considered ‘odd’.

I think the best chance for most men is to meet women via some sort of social hobby outside of work. I used to do Thai boxing before my surgery  and made lots of male and female friends doing that. Almost nobody I know does something like that though because of time and money constraints. Online dating is so much more convenient when you’re working 10-12 hours per day and you get home just to recover mentally for the next day.

It’s really no surprise to me that the number of involuntarily celibate men has skyrocketed in the past decade. Meanwhile, women are unsatisfied too because they are all matching with the most attractive guys, who in turn will have their pick of women. So maybe they’ll hook up and then leave because they have a hundred other matches. Meanwhile if a woman matched someone of her own level of attractiveness, he might stick around longer because he doesn’t have a million other options.

[InvisalignOnly]

This all dichotomy between incels and non incels is bs in my opinion. We're all the same people, with the same emotions and insecurities.

If there wasn't some level of frustration, dissatisfaction, jealousy etc., people won't be on this board seeking for plastic surgery. This all 'incel' thing is a label. I don't care about labels, I don't care about how people call themselves. We're all human beings and neither of us is perfect, neither emotionally, physically, intellectually nor personality wise. We don't need to make ourselves look better by looking upon others and dehumanize other people, labeling other people or whatever.

I so agree with everything you wrote! Personally when I said 'incel', I was referring to some common narratives advocated on incel websites / forums. There is a certain 'incel ideology', like a man has to be extremely good looking to attract women and average men don't get a chance etc. Personally, I find that there's a lot of truth in some of the things they say, it's just the way they're trying to deal with it that is unhealthy / unhelpful. But you're totally right, incel is just a label, there's a lot more to those people that comment on that kind on website than just being an 'incel'. Also, if we didn't have insecurities etc., we wouldn't be commenting on a jaw surgery website.

[InvisalignOnly]

It’s really hard to explain to someone not of my generation or younger. Even simple things like calling someone on the phone (especially someone you’re interested in) instead of texting are considered ‘odd’.

I think the best chance for most men is to meet women via some sort of social hobby outside of work.

Meanwhile, women are unsatisfied too because they are all matching with the most attractive guys, who in turn will have their pick of women. So maybe they’ll hook up and then leave because they have a hundred other matches. Meanwhile if a woman matched someone of her own level of attractiveness, he might stick around longer because he doesn’t have a million other options.

I'm not that old lol, I did a fair bit of online dating (mostly tinder) after my divorce before I met my current partner. My boyfriend and I actually met via a mutual hobby, and I met my ex husband in the pub. But online dating worked well for me especially for hook ups, it does work very well for that for women and if all parties involved can accept it for what it is, there's no resentment.

Women are always told that if they choose the 'nice guys' / average guys, they will stick around longer etc., but my actual experience is, average guys are just as likely to ghost, to be assholes, to waste your time and only want sex than the better looking, more interesting guys. It does not work that way that ugly guys are nice with a good personality and good looking guys are assholes. There's just no connection.

Also, often 'average' guys are average because of things they chose for themselves, like they don't care about personal hygiene, wear crappy clothes, don't get a proper haircut, don't exercise and so on. So it's actually their personality that's reflected in their average looks, and I would personally not want to date someone like that in the hope that he'll not dump me because he has no other options. For example, my current boyfriend could never get a job as a model (and he would not want to either) but he looks after himself, keeps fit, dresses well. I think this would be a good starting point for most guys but there are loads of men that aren't willing to do this much and then blame women for not being able to pull.

[InvisalignOnly]

if you strike up a conversation about something that interests the other person and then suggest the two of you meet to pursue said interest (whether it be cooking, a restaurant, a movie, some kind of cool place to check out, etc. etc. i mean you gotta have interests right) that's usually all it takes I find. It may not be framed as a "date" at first but it usually ends up turning into one.

You gotta play the probabilities game. And don't fear rejection, it doesn't say a thing about who you really are, or even about your looks frankly. Just keep practicing and you'll get better and better. I know a lot of Chads as the incels call them who are hopeless with girls.

That's it, I think that's all there's to it. This is actually how my current boyfriend and I got together, I never thought it was a 'date' lol. I know it's easier said than done, I actually tried to chat up guys in the past and it's nerve wrecking and you get rejected a lot etc. (men obviously more often than women). But if someone does not even try, obviously they'll not get anywhere.

[InvisalignOnly]

Did the OP say his goal was to become a male model? I think a lot of people in this thread, who are themselves obsessed with the male model look, are projecting onto the OP

Exactly, that's why I was so surprised that the whole male model thing even came up. OP looks good, as good or better than lots of guys that work as male models. He never mentioned models. I had absolutely no idea until I read the comments on this thread that so many guys thought male model looks are something to aspire to.

[beautyislife]

So maybe instead of being 'resentful', they should try different kinds of dating if online dating does not work for them? Lazlo gave some really good examples, I think for the majority of men 'real life' dating works much better, no matter how popular online dating is nowadays. It's not enough to blame women for wanting to have casual sex with good looking men. If roles were reversed, for example if I realised I don't get any dates online because men only want to hook up with supermodels and I am not a supermodel, I would try to change strategies and try to meet men in different ways. I would not just sit around blaming men and feeling resentful.

To preemptively address any comments, I do not resent women and I actually have friends that are women. However, I can see why this happens. If you go to any dating advice platform or simply ask women (and my friends are perfect examples of this) both men and women will say to adjust personality or simply be confident, this despite knowing full well that's not what really changes things as both genders are shallow. If you consistently heard this over and over but the outcome didn't change, you'd feel resentment as well.

[beautyislife]

I'm not that old lol, I did a fair bit of online dating (mostly tinder) after my divorce before I met my current partner. My boyfriend and I actually met via a mutual hobby, and I met my ex husband in the pub. But online dating worked well for me especially for hook ups, it does work very well for that for women and if all parties involved can accept it for what it is, there's no resentment.

Women are always told that if they choose the 'nice guys' / average guys, they will stick around longer etc., but my actual experience is, average guys are just as likely to ghost, to be assholes, to waste your time and only want sex than the better looking, more interesting guys. It does not work that way that ugly guys are nice with a good personality and good looking guys are assholes. There's just no connection.

Also, often 'average' guys are average because of things they chose for themselves, like they don't care about personal hygiene, wear crappy clothes, don't get a proper haircut, don't exercise and so on. So it's actually their personality that's reflected in their average looks, and I would personally not want to date someone like that in the hope that he'll not dump me because he has no other options. For example, my current boyfriend could never get a job as a model (and he would not want to either) but he looks after himself, keeps fit, dresses well. I think this would be a good starting point for most guys but there are loads of men that aren't willing to do this much and then blame women for not being able to pull.

I workout 5x a week and 2x/day on Sat/Sun. I whiten my teeth, I take about 1 hour each day to do various things (clay masks, moisturizer, straighten my hair, etc), I've even gone as far as covering up the small blemishes the best way I can, and have even curled my lashes. Sometimes being 'average' is a result of hard work. I do not online date as I spent 3 full years without matching once. I tried the 'real life' method, and can tell you I've experienced rejection more times than most. But, I completely agree - if everyone understood what people (men/women) are actually looking for, people would be far less resentful.

[InvisalignOnly]

If you go to any dating advice platform or simply ask women (and my friends are perfect examples of this) both men and women will say to adjust personality or simply be confident, this despite knowing full well that's not what really changes things as both genders are shallow. If you consistently heard this over and over but the outcome didn't change, you'd feel resentment as well.

No I wouldn't feel resentment, I'd just realise it's useless advice lol. I would just accept that online dating is mostly about looks and if a guy isn't really good looking, his chances of hooking up with lots of women online are going to be slim. Nothing to do with personality. Personality and confidence comes to play mostly in offline dating, Lazlo gave some good examples for that.

By the way, women are given loads of useless dating advice too, so they could also become super resentful about it if they wanted to. They're also told they just have to be nice and men will want to marry them (wrong - loads of men actually prefer women that are 'b*tchy', demanding, assertive or whatever), they have to be 18 year old supermodels, etc. I guess people just have to figure it out for themselves as they go along. When I look at the couples around me, a lot of people just simply got lucky (that goes for me as well), they didn't do the right thing or follow a strategy or whatever.

[InvisalignOnly]

I workout 5x a week and 2x/day on Sat/Sun. I whiten my teeth, I take about 1 hour each day to do various things (clay masks, moisturizer, straighten my hair, etc), I've even gone as far as covering up the small blemishes the best way I can, and have even curled my lashes. Sometimes being 'average' is a result of hard work. I do not online date as I spent 3 full years without matching once. I tried the 'real life' method, and can tell you I've experienced rejection more times than most. But, I completely agree - if everyone understood what people (men/women) are actually looking for, people would be far less resentful.

Wow. I must say I'm stunned! Maybe you live in the wrong city / country?

[Post bimax]

Wow. I must say I'm stunned! Maybe you live in the wrong city / country?

I really think it’s just impossible to see things from the other side. Being an average guy, and by average I mean average looks, personality, etc, in the online dating sphere is a soul-crushing experience.

[InvisalignOnly]

I really think it’s just impossible to see things from the other side. Being an average guy, and by average I mean average looks, personality, etc, in the online dating sphere is a soul-crushing experience.

I rather think he's in the wrong place at the wrong time. I mean, I know plenty of average and below average guys in terms of looks etc. and they're mostly married (and trying to cheat on their wives lol). It shouldn't be this hard. If it was this difficult for me, I'd try to move. Worst case scenario, to Thailand or something. Seriously.