Medical Ethics and Scientific Method

[erikavs]

I have alot of issues with our medical system, but this seems so obvious. Why do drs violate the Scientific Method today? Doing two different procedures at once is adding on variables...I just don't get it. I don't think it's moral, either, because our health is at stake. At least that was the case for me with my unnecessary nasal surgeries and the crippling turbinate reduction done in combo with my deviated septum surgery.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=just-thinking-about-science-triggers-moral-behavior

[dantheman]

Well doing 2 surgeries at once makes sense in some cases. Anesthesia carries not an insignificant risk itself, so the less times the better.

However, that being said, did you even consent for a turbinate reduction? I mean it's one thing to agree to a surgery without knowing all the risks of it, but to have a surgery done that one never consented to is a whole different topic in itself...

[erikavs]

That's what happened to me. After my deviated septum surgery, the ENT told me he "added on turbinate reduction because insurance came thru last minute." If I had known how deviant that is, I would have sued him.

[erikavs]

I did not consent to it. He offered it to me and insurance turned it down, so I didn't think I was getting it. There was no reason, I had zero breathing problems, just snoring. Thinking about it makes me so angry....Then when I had problems he wouldn't listen and refused to even see me again. This is a top guy...

[Kristen]

If you didn't agree to turbinate reduction you should sue.
Who was the Doctor?
What are your symptoms from the turbinate reduction?

[pekay]

What are your symptoms from the turbinate reduction?

Empty Nose Syndrome, I believe

Lazlo made a post about E.E Keller telling him ~~"Don't let anyone ever touch your turbinates"

[dantheman]

... Especially for someone considering a turbinate reduction! I don't see many other options though. Exactly 2 things work - sudafed and  otrivin. Both horrible longterm solutions.dounds like I'm damns if I do an damned if I don't

[erikavs]

Thanks so much!!
I didn't sue because the statute of limitations had passed before I found out what was going on ;( I was told by another doctor that a few years later that I needed ANOTHER turbinate reduction and septoplasty revision and I stupidly went for it...Of course then I realized the cause of my issues, went online, and found Dr Houser who does implants for ENS.

Dan, you may not have my issues...esp because I did not even go in with nasal breathing issues!!! I went in for snoring and zero complaints about my nose! So it's really good to just be informed. If you have had chronic turbinate swelling, it may indeed be "stuck" that way in the manner of a varicose vein. and so reduction may help you.

Also, with mild ENS, after a few years it can improve a lot. I wish I had known that instead of being talked into repeating my procedure!

[Tiny]

I will not hear a bad word said about otrivin, it's literally the only thing that keeps me alive when I have a cold


Re: surgeons, well 80% of them seem to have a massive god complex and don't care about silly things like patient opinions.   And patients often don't stand up for what they want as the surgeon, after all, is the expert.  (I've made this mistake myself and don't plan to make it again)

As for Bad Science, the medical "research" industry is absolutely stuffed with it and Big Pharma competes with Big Agra in terms of Evil.

The there's the 'medicalisation' of absolutely everything that happens in the US, doctors doing stuff just so that they can bill the insurance companies etc. (like turbinate reductions)  At least we are free of this in the UK (although sometimes it goes too far in the other direction)


_{At least guys don't have to worry about getting non-consensual pelvics from med students after they're under}
[/sub]

[erikavs]

Since there is no test for ENS, it's so hard to say and I don't want to scare anyone who is at their wit's end and out of options. Usually the cases from one "safe method" reduction are mild. Unfortunately so many doctors don't understand ENS because the nose looks healthy and the turbinates look normal after reduction. The only way to identify ENS is by symptoms. The worst cases just don't happen anymore because total turbinate reduction is considered stupid and only used in nasal cancer cases.
 
All I know is that turbinate hypertrophy is a symptom of other things, so reducing turbinates won't change whatever is causing them to swell. ALot of times they swell again and more easily after surgery - and then doctors want to reduce more and more, and then you get into more severe ENS territority. This is SO common.

So just make sure you see turbinate surgery as a temporary fix while you investigate the cause of your issues - hopefully it is treatable! It could be allergies, sleep, nervous system issues like Vasomotor Rhinitis which can be managed better.

[erikavs]

Dan
If sudafed works for you, you may want to try repairing nasal valve collapse if breathe right strips work. Do you have any acid reflux? Do you elevate the head of your bed? Doing this helped my reflux and ear issues...I just got off sudafed..it stopped working for me anyway! I had lots of swelling due to my airway being blocked further downstream - it made my nasal breathing worse.

Also check out dr park's site - he is the rare and amazing ethical doctor. Honestly, no other ENT will touch me because I'm damaged goods! THank god I can work with other depts. This turbinate stuff scares the crap out of the ENTs for malpractice.

Dr park has even made mistakes with me, and I have forgiven him and we move forward because I know he is trying, and my situation is complicated by all the poor work of other drs. Drs should not make decisions in fear of lawsuits or based on insurance coverage but that's how it is.

[erikavs]

To clarify about scientific method, I don't think doctors should do two things at once aimed at solving the same problem. I was given deviated septum surgery and turbinate reduction simultaneously, both to open my nasal airway. If the deviated septum was supposedly the cause of the problem, why not try that first and see if there is improvement instead of confuse things? UGH. Neither was the cause anyway.....stupid dr!
I have posted his name on the ENS boards. I would not want to get in trouble for defamation....

If anyone has Stilianos Kountakis, run the other way or make sure he doesn't treat you like an ATM. I could name all the bad ENT's in NY