Author Topic: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium  (Read 7885 times)

meo66

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Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« on: August 26, 2021, 05:43:24 AM »
Some info needed on high tensile tetanium v normal titanium for my double jaw genioplasty.which is best?thank you

GJ

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2021, 07:46:30 AM »
I doubt anyone here knows that. What does the surgeon recommend?

I'd personally go with normal because they're time tested, and in my mind at least, high tensile strength probably has almost zero flex whereas the bone around it (soft) does have flex. I'd go with a material more matched. But gain, that's just theoretical and in my mind (i.e. common sense). I could be totally wrong.
Millimeters are miles on the face.

kavan

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2021, 02:19:17 PM »
Could you tell us more about WHY or even IF the surgeon offered that as a choice for you. Different types of titanium are used for different types of needs.  MEDICAL GRADE titanium is used in surgical applications. But I won't go on about different types of titanium (many used for INDUSTRIAL) in the absence of establishing whether or not the doctor actually offered such a choice.
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meo66

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2021, 07:25:37 PM »
I have attached the file of options. thanks again

GJ

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2021, 08:51:24 PM »
Why not just ask the surgeon which you should get and why you should get them?
Millimeters are miles on the face.

kavan

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2021, 09:52:49 PM »
Wow. Never heard of such a choice. But I'm in US.  Basically, for surgical plates and screws, the high quality titanium would be the one that is closest to pure titanium like not a lot of other (alloy) materials in it. So, you would want to find out which has highest Ti percentage. When the jaws are advanced forward they are not under a 'tensile' load. So use of 'high tensile' baffles me.  High tensile strength of a material is relevant for suspension bridges and the like. Advanced jaws would be more under compressive forces than tensile because the muscles are always trying to push it backwards (relapse).  So, I'm thinking that what they call 'high TENSILE' Ti probably is high purity which is more applicable to ortho procedures where you HAVE TO KEEP the material in for a LONG TIME as in body bones. With the jaw surgery plates, you can get them removed in a year or so. They are not needed to keep forever like a Ti rod for a broken leg bone. So, probably what they call 'regular' providing you would like to have them removed in a year or so.
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GJ

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2021, 08:01:21 AM »
Wow. Never heard of such a choice. But I'm in US.  Basically, for surgical plates and screws, the high quality titanium would be the one that is closest to pure titanium like not a lot of other (alloy) materials in it. So, you would want to find out which has highest Ti percentage. When the jaws are advanced forward they are not under a 'tensile' load. So use of 'high tensile' baffles me.  High tensile strength of a material is relevant for suspension bridges and the like. Advanced jaws would be more under compressive forces than tensile because the muscles are always trying to push it backwards (relapse).  So, I'm thinking that what they call 'high TENSILE' Ti probably is high purity which is more applicable to ortho procedures where you HAVE TO KEEP the material in for a LONG TIME as in body bones. With the jaw surgery plates, you can get them removed in a year or so. They are not needed to keep forever like a Ti rod for a broken leg bone. So, probably what they call 'regular' providing you would like to have them removed in a year or so.

Exactly. When I think of tensile strength, I think of those videos on YT where someone crushes a material and measures what it can withstand. There's nothing like that really happening with jaws.

Millimeters are miles on the face.

kavan

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2021, 01:54:11 PM »
Exactly. When I think of tensile strength, I think of those videos on YT where someone crushes a material and measures what it can withstand. There's nothing like that really happening with jaws.

Tensile strength has to do with suspending something like ability to withstand tensile forces. For example suspending a heavy object from a rope or chain. When someone crushes something, that has to do with its ability to withstand compressive forces.
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GJ

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2021, 02:00:12 PM »
Tensile strength has to do with suspending something like ability to withstand tensile forces. For example suspending a heavy object from a rope or chain. When someone crushes something, that has to do with its ability to withstand compressive forces.

Gotcha. So it's the opposite - basically the force required to pull an object apart.
Millimeters are miles on the face.

kavan

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2021, 02:40:39 PM »
Gotcha. So it's the opposite - basically the force required to pull an object apart.

Yes, it's like that. If you wanted to build a SUSPENSION bridge (like one over water), you'd use materials with HIGH tensile strength. But if you wanted to build something something like an arches in a cathedral that had to hold a LOT of weight, you would use materials with high COMPRESSIVE strength.
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GJ

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2021, 02:43:42 PM »
cathedral that had to hold a LOT of weight, you would use materials with high COMPRESSIVE strength.

Yeah, I was just watching something like this on Modern Marvels. The pyramids. Created in that shape so they could absorb more weight with the clay sun baked bricks. Really fascinating. Also the baking of the clay added to compressive strength. I could have sworn they called it tensile strength, but maybe my memory is off.

I get it now, anyway, so thanks.

I don't see how this force would be applicable at all to jaw surgery. There's no extreme force pulling the bones apart. I'd go with normal plates. But I suggest the OP ask the surgeon about it and why under a worse-case circumstance those would be needed.
Millimeters are miles on the face.

kavan

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2021, 04:29:20 PM »
Yeah, I was just watching something like this on Modern Marvels. The pyramids. Created in that shape so they could absorb more weight with the clay sun baked bricks. Really fascinating. Also the baking of the clay added to compressive strength. I could have sworn they called it tensile strength, but maybe my memory is off.

I get it now, anyway, so thanks.

I don't see how this force would be applicable at all to jaw surgery. There's no extreme force pulling the bones apart. I'd go with normal plates. But I suggest the OP ask the surgeon about it and why under a worse-case circumstance those would be needed.

Well, with a sun baked brick, they become hard when they are dried out and able to withstand compression (as opposed to being squished when they are still wet). But the stones used for the pyramids were QUARRIED from stone and not sun baked bricks. However, the ziggurats built by the ancient Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians etc. used sun baked bricks and the decorative facades of some of the structures were glazed in different colors with further baking in a kiln. In terms of TIME (like 1000's of years, mud baked bricks are subject to the elements (they can erode) and don't last too long. But I digress.

Now as to the bones in jaw surgery, eg. the mandibular displacement 'forward' with the BSSO, as you know, it is the MUSCLES that are going to want to 'push back' on the forward displacement; 'relapse'. So, the displacement puts the muscles under tension. So, the material used to keep the muscles under tension needs to withstand what I think they call the 'muscle memory' where the muscles want to return to where they were prior when they were not under tension because they want to RESIST the tension they were put in. So, maybe that's why the brackets were termed 'high tensile' strength. But in actuality, the force the muscles use to COUNTER the TENSION they are put in by the forward displacement is OPPOSITE to tension such that they want to 'compress'. The MATERIAL used for the brackets (titanium) is not put under tension. It's the MUSCLES that are put under tension with the displacement. OK.

The upshot of this is that the material needs to withstand yielding or 'buckling' to the muscle forces which 'want to go back' where they were before. So, what they call 'regular' would do that as well as what they call 'high tensile'. But I do think that what they are calling 'high tensile' refers to the purity of the titanium (it's expensive material) as opposed to its ability to withstand muscle forces. So, I think it's a 'gobblygook' description.

The CLUE is when they say the 'high tensile' Ti brackets will last a lifetime. That would refer to their ability to RESIST CORROSION and hence be closer to 'pure' Ti than another alloy made with Ti.

I agree that he should ask his surgeon. I would add that he ask: 'Can you remove the plates in a YEAR or so?' This is because any plate you put in there can be removed after the bones have HEALED as they are not needed anymore and even with very 'pure' Ti, it's still subject to infection around it later down the line. So, not only should he get the 'regular' as you say but also he should make sure his doctor will REMOVE them after his bones are totally HEALED.
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meo66

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Re: Jaw surgery; tetanium v normal titanium
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2021, 07:50:18 PM »
we have agreed to use normal  so i can have removed later.thanks for replys