Modified lefort 3 or other ways of cheekbone augmentation?

[GJ]

My point is that I don't volunteer for you to put a guilt trip on me in circumstances where I'm not volunteering to coach, coddle, advise or otherwise 'spoonfeed', especially in highly esoteric procedures like ML3 where people sign up for your board BECAUSE EARL HAD THIS, but isn't here and I'm 'the one who might (or might not) know all about this'. I've NEVER claimed I'm conversant in ML3s.

It is a FACT that Earl had the 'smarts' and educational background enough to do the research he did, which took YEARS which was needed to pursue such a procedure. That is a very salient aspect of such a pursuit. I never said: 'You didn't read enough academic journals or text books to warrant help' . Not my problem if you misconstrue my words. I pointed out the FACT Earl was able to do that. It's also true that IF I wanted the procedure for myself (which I'm not pursuing), I would be able to digest all the material, do the research as did Earl. But that doesn't OBLIGE me to be a PROXY for Earl. Nor does it warrant any guilt trips from you.

The issue here as far as I'm concerned is that when people sign up for your board (and provide a financial contribution to do so) and sign up to pursue what Earl had, there should be no expectation that 'because I could or would' know more than others on here that I'm obliged to advise them on this. Clearly, you furthered that expectation and went about shaming me for not catering to it and it is exactly THAT type of thing I rather not YOU volunteer my help for when I've made clear I'm NOT volunteering to coach or advise on ML3s. So, what ever expectations new sign ups might have that I 'should' be able to help with this should NOT part of any impression they might have with what ever financial contribution they provide for signing up here.

I would suggest you make clear to prospective members that what ever financial contributions they provide is for internet upkeep expenses only and does not involve specialized access, advice, coaching..etc from any one particular member. That would be preferable to your blatantly DISRESPECTING my choice NOT to cater to ML3 sign ups and TOTALLY IGNORING that I gave him some help. BECAUSE you put a guilt trip on me this way and continued to do so DESPITE my offering him some help, I'm not inclined to say anything more to him at all.

So, not only did you try to shame and put a guilt trip on me for NOT volunteering to advise, coach etc. But you CONTINUED to do so AFTER I did give him some helpful advice. Put a guilt trip on me for not volunteering what I don't choose to volunteer and go on to SHAME me after I DO volunteer some advice and call me  'sociopathic' in the process and you think YOUR statements will motivate me to give this member any further advice? On the contrary. You've done the OPPOSITE.
So, shame and guilt trip as much as you want. In that way, it should help 'Burnt Soul' understand WHY I won't be volunteering any more commentary to him given the environment that anything I say, don't say or isn't said in a way that YOU don't like it to be said will be held against me.

Yeah, none of that happened. I've never mentioned you to anyone who signs up. Donations go towards hosting, which is $450 every 3 years.

The bottom line is you think you're brilliant, and you think others should be equally brilliant. Not everyone can digest what you want them to digest. They might not have the savviness to find articles; they might not have the intelligence to digest them; they might just not want to spend their time that way, which is why they signed up for an advice forum (i.e. to ask advice). You have a hard-on for Earl because he did some research. Who cares? He probably had OCD and other disorders that lead him to do a ton of research. Not everyone is going to do that, nor should they be expected to do that.

The goal of this forum is to HELP people who have serious problems. If someone is considering a LF3, they probably have a serious problem. Instead of getting help, they get demeaned and domineered. It's truly bizarre.

[GJ]

OP, to your actual question, and my attempt to help. I went through my old emails with Earl.

Since I told him I wouldn't share them publicly, I won't, but I'll summarize the gist of it as I don't think he'd care about summarizing them.

He did get the LF3, but it was a modified LF3, and it didn't make him an "Adonis", just Earl without orbital rim deficiency. With things more forward, any asymmetry was possibly exaggerated. He wound up getting a modified LF3 because the surgeon thought the cuts he wanted (the actual LF3) would produce a step off in the malar region (this was my concern, as noted in the original post). Cut was stopped before the orbital nerve to eliminate the risk of blindness and also another risk of a step off in that area. Step offs can be "sanded down", but surgeons prefer not to do that (I'm not sure why...must be inexact...I assume they can graft, too, but again, that's usually inexact).

That's all I can really say about it. My recommendation would be: go on a lot of consults and take it slowly, and don't fall for promises or ask the surgeon leading questions. Just ask a question, be quiet, and let him answer. If possible, ask for a referral to someone who actually had the LF3, etc. Basic stuff, but it's important to do a consult the right way. Oh, and read journal articles if you can.

[kavan]

Yeah, none of that happened. I've never mentioned you to anyone who signs up. Donations go towards hosting, which is $450 every 3 years.

The bottom line is you think you're brilliant, and you think others should be equally brilliant. Not everyone can digest what you want them to digest. They might not have the savviness to find articles; they might not have the intelligence to digest them; they might just not want to spend their time that way, which is why they signed up for an advice forum (i.e. to ask advice). You have a hard-on for Earl because he did some research. Who cares? He probably had OCD and other disorders that lead him to do a ton of research. Not everyone is going to do that, nor should they be expected to do that.

The goal of this forum is to HELP people who have serious problems. If someone is considering a LF3, they probably have a serious problem. Instead of getting help, they get demeaned and domineered. It's truly bizarre.

Well, you should not be expecting me to do their research for them. As for my 'thinking I'm brilliant', I'm not alone in that. MIT and Harvard thought so too. Now you are insulting Earl for having OCD and other 'problems' that cause someone to do research and study. Ya right, not everyone is going to do that or be expected to do that. So, I guess that leaves people who have 'OCD' and other 'psyche problems' as the very few who find a doctor to do ML3.

We shall leave it as NOTHING I can say is going to be helpful to this person or to your liking and there is NOTHING I can say/do that will make Sinn come out of retirement or somehow 'create' other doctors that are looking for patients who want ML3S, I DON'T CLAIM to be conversant in ML3s and there is NOTHING I can do about Earl (for what ever his reasons) not being here to keep up with giving info to people who come here in pursuit of what he had. NOR would I think to hold him 'responsible' for a 'bad outcome' that someone else might have if they pursued ML3 without Earl's help. I'm not a PROXY for Earl and you should not be shaming me here for pointing out I admire his 'smarts' for being able to do this with NO HELP from this board. If it's so important to you that members coming here seeking info on ML3 get it than that begs the question of what efforts have YOU made to encourage Earl to (or the other person) to come back to this board when you have sign ups coming here in pursuit of ML3s? I guess you've answered what effort you made to encourage him to come back to help with ML3 questions by Insulting/shaming him here too for having 'OCD' or 'psyche problems'.

[BurnSoul]

Kavan.

I am adressing this reply to you.
GJ was clearly calling you out for how you phrased and put a comment on this forum. You DID come across as "I only help people who I find worthy" attitude. Specially since you just helped that other woman in that other forum. This is something I consider serious, I can assure you it is no joke to me. You are in NO obligation to help anyone. GJ is NOT guilt tripping you on that. He is saying that you should not even comment in the matter if you don't plan or know how to help instead of just commenting saying "I won't spoon feed you information" When we just want help of any sort. I appreciate the help a ton you gave me. Wether Harvard or institutations think you are brilliant I don't know, if that is true then it's deserved from what I've seen before from you here at least in knowledge wise, but truth be told you do come off as an asshole and switching narratives in some forums specially in this one. You tried switching the blame on GJ for you not commenting here or helping me any further, that is just your choice. Not GJ's fault or anyone else's.
       What else can a forum be for but ask, give or learn information. Nothing. Also phrasing "nothing I can say/do will make Sinn come out of retirement" That is not the concern GJ was talking about. You're probably not a dumb guy or an asshole, but it is a bit sociopathic you also had to clarify the Harvard part JUST IN CASE.
       Also the procedure IS the procedure. I do not care for EARL. Only the procedure. Apparently after it he still wanted more and his history seems there are multilpe things he wanted to adress, which could signal surgery addiction. I am not interested in that. Varbrah is someone who also got it. I'm also looking for forums of what he said.

[BurnSoul]

GJ

Thank you for that reply. Yes. I will do my best. Step-off I still can't fully imagine it properly but it makes sense. I imagine this was the cut Earl got and is talking about. This is the only way I can imagine the step off.
I will investigat even further. I've read a ton of articles that i've rented that cost plenty money lol. Truth be told most of them seem to be study cases and not something they do to non syndromic patients but I will keep on lookout. I will start by asking the people Sinn trained. I will also not ask leading questions like you said which might scare them off. This is something serious and I will do my upmost and best to get it solved. I will follow the advice and keep it in mind GJ. Thank you. If there is something that comes up please comment here for me and people that will visit this again.

[kavan]

OP, to your actual question, and my attempt to help. I went through my old emails with Earl.

Since I told him I wouldn't share them publicly, I won't, but I'll summarize the gist of it as I don't think he'd care about summarizing them.

He did get the LF3, but it was a modified LF3, and it didn't make him an "Adonis", just Earl without orbital rim deficiency. With things more forward, any asymmetry was possibly exaggerated. He wound up getting a modified LF3 because the surgeon thought the cuts he wanted (the actual LF3) would produce a step off in the malar region (this was my concern, as noted in the original post). Cut was stopped before the orbital nerve to eliminate the risk of blindness and also another risk of a step off in that area. Step offs can be "sanded down", but surgeons prefer not to do that (I'm not sure why...must be inexact...I assume they can graft, too, but again, that's usually inexact).

That's all I can really say about it. My recommendation would be: go on a lot of consults and take it slowly, and don't fall for promises or ask the surgeon leading questions. Just ask a question, be quiet, and let him answer. If possible, ask for a referral to someone who actually had the LF3, etc. Basic stuff, but it's important to do a consult the right way. Oh, and read journal articles if you can.

Well, it pans out that you had more info as to what he had via private e-mails. I had no private correspondence with him as to the ML3. Yet, I'm the one  'withholding' info that I never had concerning what he got (other than the info he openly shared on board). The suggestion to go on lots of consults is similar to my advice also as is to read more journal articles if he can.

I agree that's basically all that can be said about it.

[GJ]

I know why Earl left. We talked via email a lot, and he told me why. That's why I haven't asked him to come back, nor is he ever coming back to any forums. I didn't withhold anything and told the OP I would get to Earl's emails and read through then when I had time, which was today.

Regarding your brilliance, I'm only impressed more by your humility.

[BurnSoul]

Yeah similar advice Kavan.

Yeah that's what you told me in PMs i'm surprised you remember. Thank you for that. GJ.

The step off you talk about is the one in the picture I posted where the "bone graft" arrow appears I imagine.

[GJ]

I'm surprised you remember.

My lady jokes constantly I have the memory of an elephant...

It might take me an eternity, but I get back to things.

[kavan]

Kavan.

I am adressing this reply to you.
GJ was clearly calling you out for how you phrased and put a comment on this forum. You DID come across as "I only help people who I find worthy" attitude. Specially since you just helped that other woman in that other forum. This is something I consider serious, I can assure you it is no joke to me. You are in NO obligation to help anyone. GJ is NOT guilt tripping you on that. He is saying that you should not even comment in the matter if you don't plan or know how to help instead of just commenting saying "I won't spoon feed you information" When we just want help of any sort. I appreciate the help a ton you gave me. Wether Harvard or institutations think you are brilliant I don't know, if that is true then it's deserved from what I've seen before from you here at least in knowledge wise, but truth be told you do come off as an asshole and switching narratives in some forums specially in this one. You tried switching the blame on GJ for you not commenting here or helping me any further, that is just your choice. Not GJ's fault or anyone else's.
       What else can a forum be for but ask, give or learn information. Nothing. Also phrasing "nothing I can say/do will make Sinn come out of retirement" That is not the concern GJ was talking about. You're probably not a dumb guy or an asshole, but it is a bit sociopathic you also had to clarify the Harvard part JUST IN CASE.
       Also the procedure IS the procedure. I do not care for EARL. Only the procedure. Apparently after it he still wanted more and his history seems there are multilpe things he wanted to adress, which could signal surgery addiction. I am not interested in that. Varbrah is someone who also got it. I'm also looking for forums of what he said.

As to saying I would not 'spoon feed' info on ML3, I said that way before you came along. So, my prior open statement of that should not have been looked at as in any type of 'invitation' that I was receptive to advising on ML3.

I told you from the get go in this string: 'It is an extremely esoteric operation. The only suggestion I can offer is to look in the bibliography in articles of cases you've come across in hopes to find a name cited of a doctor possibility.'

As time went on, it seemed like I was being importuned to provide info that would lead you to getting what you wanted when there was really nothing I could say or do to make that come true for you and then came the guilt trip and shaming which you deny GJ did in your behalf.

I understand that you want what you want and have limited your options to only ML3 despite orbital rim/midface implants that could address your problem and also you have a better rapport with GJ than with the way I say things.

 I recognize that 'back and forth' communication with me is not working out. No need to pursue it further and I have no issue with GJ giving you all the info you need as to ML3.

[kavan]

I know why Earl left. We talked via email a lot, and he told me why. That's why I haven't asked him to come back, nor is he ever coming back to any forums. I didn't withhold anything and told the OP I would get to Earl's emails and read through then when I had time, which was today.

Regarding your brilliance, I'm only impressed more by your humility.

I didn't say you withheld info. I said you attributed ME with withholding it (in a circumstance when I had no private correspondence with Earl as did you).

[BurnSoul]

Hahaha that makes sense GJ.

Thank you as usual. Is the step off you mentioned the one in the picture I posted?
Also the image is the only one that I could find that shows a modified lefort 3 but when tracing it's origin it goes into looksmax incel forums. That is a bit worrying.

I keep looking. Obwegeser seems like the perfect person for this. It's a shame he doesn't seem to want to answer anymore. Most people when they hear ML3 think advancing everything from eye socket down. When in reality you can just advance malar area and not the jaws like Varbrah had.

[GJ]

Is the step off you mentioned the one in the picture I posted?

That's where, in my mind's eye, I pictured a step off being a risk. Definitely ask about shaving down the bone and/or grafting to soften that. I'd imagine the eye sockets appear more depressed after the procedure, too, since you're advancing everything around it, and any asymmetry will be exaggerated as you move things forward.

I know we all think this is an esoteric and risky procedure. I still think that, fwiw, but after reading Earl's emails, Sinn didn't feel that way. I don't know if that's because Sinn's confidence in his ability, his experience, etc, but that was his feeling about it. In rereading the emails, that stood out.

[GJ]

He's Varbrah's discussion of it: https://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,8542.msg79109.html#msg79109

I reached out to him (maybe he's more likely to respond to an admin) and linked this thread. He was last active in January, so he might be around still.

[BurnSoul]

Thank you for the link GJ. Yeah I read that one some weeks/days ago in my research.
What surprised me a TON is how both Earl and him refere to it as "milder than DJS" WHAT? Also this thread was how I learned it was two separate surgeries. I thought they were both done at the same time in one go but apparently not. What absolutely CONFUSES me a ton is that they keep refering it as recovery being "milder than Djs" and basically that it was not a big deal recovery wise. The cuts seem to be two, infraorbital area and lefort 1 area, apparently done at different times. This is insane to me I'd think it all would be on the same go. Today I'm contacting Sinn's team to see if he thought this to someone ever. I will be careful how I talk about it but I must try.

Thank you for messaging him and linking the thread to him. I tried messaging him some days/weeks ago but he did not answer yet. Let's hope there is more luck this time around.