General Category > Aesthetics
Opinions on my plan
Dex1816:
--- Quote from: kavan on May 27, 2024, 02:56:56 PM ---ETA: If the depiction doesn't show the upper lip angling outward and the teeth don't angle outward in the bone model, no assumption can be made that the teeth would angle outward with a smile given that the orientation of the teeth support the upper lip.
--- End quote ---
What I meant by the possibility of my teeth coming too far forward wasn't referring to an angulation (a jutting, 'goofy' look). I mean the relative position of the entire occlusal unit as it relates to the rest of the face. For example, I have linked a picture below of Brad Pitt -- someone considered to have excellent facial aesthetics -- smiling. From what I can tell, his incisors align to the established attractive norm at the nasion.
Should his occlusal complex come out as far as mine are predicted to with an 11mm advancement (up to the tip of the nose bone), I would assume him to not be as attractive and to lose a great degree of facial harmony. Again, I cannot directly compare my own predicted outcome to other people, but it is established that the most attractive people have cephalometric commonalities, and it would seem to me there is at least some degree of objectivity involved, to which end you would want to be as close to as possible. This is microcosmic of my overall concern.
--- Quote ---ETA: If the bone model SHOWS you both the jaw advancement and the rest of the scull with it, no assumption can be made that it's out of proportion with the rest of the scull.
--- End quote ---
I guess I can take this as a rebuttal to my concerns outlined just above, then?
kavan:
Yes. CCW rotates the triangle on a fixed point and all the other points and or line orientations rotate/change position in accordance. Linear advancement is a term they use to convey no rotations and only the advancement of the entire triangle along the directional path of line AB (or BA since it's going forward to point A).
In addition to a triangle being rotated, things can be moved forward along the orientation path of the rotated lines. A rotation is a separate displacement operation than an advancement over a line. An advancement of a point over the path of a line is basically a 'translation' of that point. The path of the line is extrapolated further out and a point moved along that path gets displaced further out. CCW ALONE does not do that. Displacing a point along the path of a line is the advancement.
CCW is not performed alone. It's a geometrical operation that allows the surgeon to advance both the maxilla and the mandible along a better line of orientation. However, in some cases, the ANS point or A point of the triangle can stay put if a large advancement of the lower jaw is not needed. But still, the surgeon needs to perform a BSSO along with the rotation.
Some BACKGROUND in GEOMETRICAL relationships needs to be under belt to relate to the concept of rotating a triangle and also moving landmark points along altered lines orientations. It is NOT something I will discuss in terms of 'chimp lip'.
Basically, what the surgeon is doing is CHANGING the TRIANGLE of the maxillary mandibular complex via rotating it and selecting which lines within it should be increased/elongated and by how much. The goal of the change is toward a better aesthetic balance, a better upper jaw to lower jaw line up. He's got a computer program to rotate the MM complex and from there, he can look at how much to advance the maxilla and mandible with reference to orientation of lines changed by the rotation. The program will show the allowable displacements of the upper and lower jaw like how much they can move each jaw 'forward' along the new orientation lines and still be within a norm and to effect good aesthetic balance. For every 'x' the maxilla is moved 'forward' (along the changed line of its orientation), the mandible will move 'y' amount 'forward along its changed line of orientation. The advancements of both are INTERRELATED or a function of each other. For example, for every mm he moves the maxilla forward on the displacement program, it will show the corresponding increase the mandible can be advanced. The program is used to manipulate a start point triangle in such a way where the end point construct of an altered triangle is also within the venue of a better aesthetic balance. THAT is what your surgeon has done in the diagram/s he showed you. That can be said in the absence of elaborations on geometrical relationships
I don't want to belabor this any further because it all boils down to simply LOOKING AT, observing, what the displacement proposal SHOWS you. AT very LEAST you should have the conceptual abilities to observe that nothing about it kicks up a monkey muzzle contour, nothing about the upper teeth flaring out can be seen and nothing about the jaw advancement shows disproportion with the rest of the scull. Your anxiety/fears precludes you from the very salient ability you are expected to have when getting a proposal from a surgeon which is to look at the damn thing and decide whether or not you like the PLAN. You like the new contour or you don't.
As to the OTHER persons plan vs the outcome and what OTHER people said about it on a forum, that is neither here nor there. What I observe is that her outcome is in accordance to the displacement proposal. That is to say the her displacement diagram of scull is consistent with her outcome. The displacement proposal was predictive enough for her to decide whether or not she liked it. I would assume she had ample conceptual/perceptual abilities to decide whether or not the proposed bone structure changes would be to her liking as to make a decision.
In closing, what ever decision you make an with what ever abilities or worries you are using to make one, I wish you the best of LUCK. But I need to close this back and forth due to time constraints.
Dex1816:
--- Quote from: kavan on May 27, 2024, 06:53:50 PM ---Yes. CCW rotates the triangle on a fixed point and all the other points and or line orientations rotate/change position in accordance. Linear advancement is a term they use to convey no rotations and only the advancement of the entire triangle along the directional path of line AB (or BA since it's going forward to point A).
In addition to a triangle being rotated, things can be moved forward along the orientation path of the rotated lines. A rotation is a separate displacement operation than an advancement over a line. An advancement of a point over the path of a line is basically a 'translation' of that point. The path of the line is extrapolated further out and a point moved along that path gets displaced further out. CCW ALONE does not do that. Displacing a point along the path of a line is the advancement.
CCW is not performed alone. It's a geometrical operation that allows the surgeon to advance both the maxilla and the mandible along a better line of orientation. However, in some cases, the ANS point or A point of the triangle can stay put if a large advancement of the lower jaw is not needed. But still, the surgeon needs to perform a BSSO along with the rotation.
Some BACKGROUND in GEOMETRICAL relationships needs to be under belt to relate to the concept of rotating a triangle and also moving landmark points along altered lines orientations. It is NOT something I will discuss in terms of 'chimp lip'.
Basically, what the surgeon is doing is CHANGING the TRIANGLE of the maxillary mandibular complex via rotating it and selecting which lines within it should be increased/elongated and by how much. The goal of the change is toward a better aesthetic balance, a better upper jaw to lower jaw line up. He's got a computer program to rotate the MM complex and from there, he can look at how much to advance the maxilla and mandible with reference to orientation of lines changed by the rotation. The program will show the allowable displacements of the upper and lower jaw like how much they can move each jaw 'forward' along the new orientation lines and still be within a norm and to effect good aesthetic balance. For every 'x' the maxilla is moved 'forward' (along the changed line of its orientation), the mandible will move 'y' amount 'forward along its changed line of orientation. The advancements of both are INTERRELATED or a function of each other. For example, for every mm he moves the maxilla forward on the displacement program, it will show the corresponding increase the mandible can be advanced. The program is used to manipulate a start point triangle in such a way where the end point construct of an altered triangle is also within the venue of a better aesthetic balance. THAT is what your surgeon has done in the diagram/s he showed you. That can be said in the absence of elaborations on geometrical relationships
I don't want to belabor this any further because it all boils down to simply LOOKING AT, observing, what the displacement proposal SHOWS you. AT very LEAST you should have the conceptual abilities to observe that nothing about it kicks up a monkey muzzle contour, nothing about the upper teeth flaring out can be seen and nothing about the jaw advancement shows disproportion with the rest of the scull. Your anxiety/fears precludes you from the very salient ability you are expected to have when getting a proposal from a surgeon which is to look at the damn thing and decide whether or not you like the PLAN. You like the new contour or you don't.
As to the OTHER persons plan vs the outcome and what OTHER people said about it on a forum, that is neither here nor there. What I observe is that her outcome is in accordance to the displacement proposal. That is to say the her displacement diagram of scull is consistent with her outcome. The displacement proposal was predictive enough for her to decide whether or not she liked it. I would assume she had ample conceptual/perceptual abilities to decide whether or not the proposed bone structure changes would be to her liking as to make a decision.
In closing, what ever decision you make an with what ever abilities or worries you are using to make one, I wish you the best of LUCK. But I need to close this back and forth due to time constraints.
--- End quote ---
What you've said makes a ton of sense. I'm very grateful for the time you've taken to explain.
GJ:
That's a huge movement and probably not justified bases on the scan you posted. The ANS can be trimmed to help with protrusion, to some extent.
kavan:
--- Quote from: GJ on May 29, 2024, 09:50:38 AM ---That's a huge movement and probably not justified bases on the scan you posted. The ANS can be trimmed to help with protrusion, to some extent.
--- End quote ---
The nose protrusion he has is to the TOP of the nose bone. Not the base ; ANS. The surgeon told him he had a hanging columella due to lack of support under the nose. So, you would NOT trim the ANS for that since it supports the base of the nose. Trimming the ANS in someone with a hanging columella stands to collapse support for the base of the nose. The protrusion to his nose bone that his surgeon is advancing the maxilla relative to is area to the TOP of his nose bone that is sticking out. He's got a photo up pointing to where it exactly is.
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