jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => General Chat => Topic started by: earl25 on January 13, 2015, 07:53:40 PM
-
Recently I read a post on a health board about a mother of 4 who was ranting how upset she is because she didn't give her kids cod liver oil and now they have jaw/dental issues. The strange thing is she said she followed his other advice , no fluoride water, tons of grass fed butter and whole milk, liver etc. The only thing she didn't do is the cod liver oil. I have a hard time believing that the cod liver oil was the missing link. I mean she did EVERYTHING else he said and your telling me that translated into nothing?
Also all the models born post 1960 grew up on the same garbage diet/ food that the rest of us did, how come they didn't have these problems? some of them didn't even eat as kids because they wanted to stay skinny, yet they don't have jaw/cranio prroblems.
also he said in his papers that he analyzed the nutrients in the food, how exactly in the 20's-30's did he do that? did they even have the equipment/technology to check this
-
It's all genetics. All of it.
-
I don't think humans should consume dairy products at all. Advocating a high dairy consumption is not sound dietary advice and I fail to see how his studies of African natives could lead to this recommendation. I personally consumed a copious amount of whole milk a day while growing up and now I'm the only one in the entire family who has skeletal anomalies. That may very well be a coincidence but I can't help but feel that my high intake of dairy products might be the culprit. There are plenty of studies that show the detrimental effects that milk have on your body and the bones in particular. I don't think Weston A Price's research holds up but I'd be very interested in seeing a proper study on people who follow a strict paleolithic diet.
Also all the models born post 1960 grew up on the same garbage diet/ food that the rest of us did, how come they didn't have these problems? some of them didn't even eat as kids because they wanted to stay skinny, yet they don't have jaw/cranio prroblems.
I think this mostly comes down to genetics but I don't know how exactly that genetic advantage is played out. It could just be that some people have a higher tolerance to "bad" food than others. I mean, why do some people who eat like pigs never get acne while others have to stay on a really strict diet to avoid it? It could be the same thing with craniofacial deformities.
-
I wouldn't say it's all genetics. It's pre natal nutrition plus once the kid is born it's about maintaining tongue posture and nasal breathing. Genetics matter for random facial features. in a perfect world your genes should fully express themselves, in our world that's not the case.
@gregor- what do you men by skeletal anomalies?
-
Two years ago I read a post on some health forum from a mother that had started giving her daughter fermented cod liver oil and high vitamin butter oil. She claimed in a year that her daughter's narrow jaw grew wider, I can't remember if she said more foward as well or not.
Oh also this might have been a blog but this crazy mother was posting pictures of her babies, one hadn't been fed the Weston Price stuff and the other two had. The two Weston fed ones did have much wider faces but it seems pretty sick to experiment on your children like that and send their photograps to the internet.
It's hard to believe that consuming that stuff can effect your bone structure in such a profound way, maybe all these posts by "mothers" are clever marketing from greenpasture.org lol.
Gregor what have you heard about dairy's negative effects on bone? The farmer's son where I go for milk is hot.
-
Earl, I've read a ton about Dr. Weston's research. A few books by doctors etc. who claim to be Weston Price advocates etc..
Here's what I've ascertained. Price, who did a study of societies such as the Massai tribe and other indigenous people living on traditional diets found a very low instance of dental decay in these groups. This is a fact. It's processed sugar, and especially processed carbohydrates that lead to dental carries. He also noted better arch formation and jaw formation in these people. Okay, now as others mentioned, pre-natal health etc. counts for a lot here. Even in India where the village he studied was vegetarian, they were eating wheat that had been specially harvested from mineral rich soil, was prepared by first soaking and roasting it etc. to rid it of various gut leaking properties (gut health is very important to the Price ethos), etc..
Now evolutionarily it is true that the human jaw has been getting smaller, and whether this parallels the move from pre-agrarian to post-agrarian diets is not completely conclusive, but even one generation CAN make a difference as epigeneticists are now demonstrating to us. I've been to a remote village in both Africa and India where people were relatively isolated and had been for centuries and were eating traditional diets and their dental health and facial formation was one the whole superior to what you'd find in a western city. That said, I think it's already a bit too late once you've had the kid, the nutrition needs to star pre-natally, and probably have been there for a few generations so that it has really influenced the genes. Also, you'd need to eliminate all processed foods to truly test this experiment.
Again, I agree, there are male models who grew up eating s**t, though they probably have tons of cavities and stuff --but again there are genetic freaks who have certain PH balances to their saliva that aggressively prevent cavities no matter way.
For general dental health I think the Weston Price protocol is the best diet: bone broth, no processed foods, no sugar, all natural and naturally prepared foods. Nothing out of a box or a package. But it's not gonna change the shape of your jaw. It will however probably resist you from developing all sorts of other diseases as well as keep your teeth strong and your gums healthy.
-
@gregor- what do you men by skeletal anomalies?
Class III jaws, midface hypoplasia etc.
Gregor what have you heard about dairy's negative effects on bone?
http://saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/
I'm not sure how good of a source this website is but it does cite a number of scientific studies.
-
All those tribes isolated from society - like their prehistoric counterparts - have means in place to cull their weak. Since they don't use birth control, their women basically get one kid after another, so in order to keep their population stable, they have certain customs/rituals in place to prevent overgrowth of their tribe. Namely, the weak, sick, deformed, retarded or otherwise unfit infants either don't survive because of the lack of medical care or because the tribe shaman drowns them in the river as a sacrifice for the local deity. Another way this is done is for instance to have some sort of coming of age ritual where all preubescent boys have to survive on their own for a week in the wild - many of whom won't return.
So looking at the adults in those tribes introduces a strong selection bias towards the healthy and fit, because you don't get to even see the unfit part of the tribal population (it's dead). This is in stark contrast to a modern western society with a infant mortality rate of less then .01% where basically everyone lives to the age of 75-82 and introduces their s**tty genetic legacy into the genepool. Even if your parents don't have jaw and or craniofacial issues, that is not a guarantee that the propensity for it isn't in your genes as such things can easily skip a generation.
In other words, nutrition has f**k all to do with it. If that were the case, almost everyone in ethopia, somalia, burkina faso or darfur would be a lefort III candidate.
-
Again, I agree, there are male models who grew up eating s**t, though they probably have tons of cavities and stuff --but again there are genetic freaks who have certain PH balances to their saliva that aggressively prevent cavities no matter way.
Actually, producing a lot of saliva constantly is the body's best way of preventing tooth decay. There are benefits to being drooly.
-
All those tribes isolated from society - like their prehistoric counterparts - have means in place to cull their weak. Since they don't use birth control, their women basically get one kid after another, so in order to keep their population stable, they have certain customs/rituals in place to prevent overgrowth of their tribe. Namely, the weak, sick, deformed, retarded or otherwise unfit infants either don't survive because of the lack of medical care or because the tribe shaman drowns them in the river as a sacrifice for the local deity. Another way this is done is for instance to have some sort of coming of age ritual where all preubescent boys have to survive on their own for a week in the wild - many of whom won't return.
So looking at the adults in those tribes introduces a strong selection bias towards the healthy and fit, because you don't get to even see the unfit part of the tribal population (it's dead). This is in stark contrast to a modern western society with a infant mortality rate of less then .01% where basically everyone lives to the age of 75-82 and introduces their s**tty genetic legacy into the genepool. Even if your parents don't have jaw and or craniofacial issues, that is not a guarantee that the propensity for it isn't in your genes as such things can easily skip a generation.
In other words, nutrition has f**k all to do with it. If that were the case, almost everyone in ethopia, somalia, burkina faso or darfur would be a lefort III candidate.
I have tended to agree with this.
-
All those tribes isolated from society - like their prehistoric counterparts - have means in place to cull their weak. Since they don't use birth control, their women basically get one kid after another, so in order to keep their population stable, they have certain customs/rituals in place to prevent overgrowth of their tribe. Namely, the weak, sick, deformed, retarded or otherwise unfit infants either don't survive because of the lack of medical care or because the tribe shaman drowns them in the river as a sacrifice for the local deity. Another way this is done is for instance to have some sort of coming of age ritual where all preubescent boys have to survive on their own for a week in the wild - many of whom won't return.
So looking at the adults in those tribes introduces a strong selection bias towards the healthy and fit, because you don't get to even see the unfit part of the tribal population (it's dead). This is in stark contrast to a modern western society with a infant mortality rate of less then .01% where basically everyone lives to the age of 75-82 and introduces their s**tty genetic legacy into the genepool. Even if your parents don't have jaw and or craniofacial issues, that is not a guarantee that the propensity for it isn't in your genes as such things can easily skip a generation.
In other words, nutrition has f**k all to do with it. If that were the case, almost everyone in ethopia, somalia, burkina faso or darfur would be a lefort III candidate.
I feel dumb, I didn't even think of that. that also makes sense. Also when I see pictures(paintings) of Europeans from pre 1800 , I still see plenty of midface issues/ abnormalities. I don't think they even had processed foods back then.
-
I feel dumb, I didn't even think of that. that also makes sense. Also when I see pictures(paintings) of Europeans from pre 1800 , I still see plenty of midface issues/ abnormalities. I don't think they even had processed foods back then.
European royalty had a lot of problems with inbreeding back in the days. Try searching on google for "habsburg jaw" for example.
Here's another take on things that claim that how we breastfeed (or don't) at a young age is linked to how the jaws develop: http://robbwolf.com/2013/08/29/dentistry-harmony-nature/
-
European royalty had a lot of problems with inbreeding back in the days. Try searching on google for "habsburg jaw" for example.
I'd imagine in tribal communities they would also have a lot of inbreeding
-
All those tribes isolated from society - like their prehistoric counterparts - have means in place to cull their weak. Since they don't use birth control, their women basically get one kid after another, so in order to keep their population stable, they have certain customs/rituals in place to prevent overgrowth of their tribe. Namely, the weak, sick, deformed, retarded or otherwise unfit infants either don't survive because of the lack of medical care or because the tribe shaman drowns them in the river as a sacrifice for the local deity. Another way this is done is for instance to have some sort of coming of age ritual where all preubescent boys have to survive on their own for a week in the wild - many of whom won't return.
So looking at the adults in those tribes introduces a strong selection bias towards the healthy and fit, because you don't get to even see the unfit part of the tribal population (it's dead). This is in stark contrast to a modern western society with a infant mortality rate of less then .01% where basically everyone lives to the age of 75-82 and introduces their s**tty genetic legacy into the genepool. Even if your parents don't have jaw and or craniofacial issues, that is not a guarantee that the propensity for it isn't in your genes as such things can easily skip a generation.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't find any proof that such a selection bias existed back in the paleolithic age. It is true that infant mortality rates were really high back then and stuff like getting a serious injury or an infection pretty much meant you were dead, but that doesn't prove that a majority of those who died before adulthood were genetically inferior to those who lived to spread on their genes.
I'd imagine in tribal communities they would also have a lot of inbreeding
I've wondered about that. Maybe they had enough experience to know to only breed with people from other villages. It seems like something they would've found out the hard way.
-
@ Gregor. I was breast fed for a year and my jaw is still messed up, I also come from a family of Europeans that grew up on farms and ate healthy food. But when I was a kid My jaws were fiine then as I grew older I started to breathe through my mouth, have a low tongue posture and kept my mouth open all the time. Eventually things started to regress. No one in my family has jaw issues or cranio facial issues. Just me. I believe that environment has a HUGE role in development and nutrition has a role in pre natal development.
-
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't find any proof that such a selection bias existed back in the paleolithic age.
I was talking about Dr. Weston Price's research. He looked at the teeth of adults and elderly to reach his conclusions so therefore his conclusions are biased towards the fit part of the population as he cannot examine people who are dead.
-
There's few ways to get nice facial development and lots of ways to not. Genetics appears to be one among many factors. Sadly, I wasn't able to convince my wife of the importance of pre-natal nutrition when she was pregnant with both kids. Though she did breast feed both, they both have issues already and that as young kids. Sleep, breathing, nutrition, and other health factors all throughout childhood all have an impact.
-
There's few ways to get nice facial development and lots of ways to not. Genetics appears to be one among many factors. Sadly, I wasn't able to convince my wife of the importance of pre-natal nutrition when she was pregnant with both kids. Though she did breast feed both, they both have issues already and that as young kids. Sleep, breathing, nutrition, and other health factors all throughout childhood all have an impact.
Absolutely. You have to get on this stuff immediately and have them examined by orthodontists who are very familiar with double stage orthodontics where they widen the palate so that there is no crowding. Then jaw surgery is not a problem later when they're 18. And of course sucking thumbs etc. is horrible, but good nutrition and a lot of exercise is important. You have a responsibility to your children to fix these issues and fortunately you have the knowledge to do so since it will impact their lives heavily in the future.
-
I'm finding that practitioners aren't eager to help my kids actually. My daughter has an open overlapping bite already even, at only 5 years old! An ENT agreed her tonsils needed to be removed but that's it. Her turbinates are mostly shut so I'm taking her to an allergist finally and I'm hoping her skeletal structure will revert now. Her post-op sleep study was ok (AHI of .7). Stanford papers suggest expansion too but opinions vary on whether that's a good idea. The claim is that if you widen the maxilla then the mandible will follow. It's a pretty big gamble to take since you could easily end up with a crossbite that needs to be surgically narrowed later on.
My plan right now is to wait until she turns 7 and then go to the Stanford orthodontist for an opinion. She seems to be the only ortho who's not crazy that treats young children. I guess we'll widen if she seems confident it's a good idea. Start treating the allergies and watch for signs of sleep apnea relapse. Causes of facial deformity are well known at this point, prevention seems to be an active research topic. Very frustrating.
-
molestrip google orthotropics. Disregard what people say but, orthotropic is not bulls**t. When your child is young, around 7-10 it works miracles.
-
I've researched Orthotropics some. Yeah, opinions are quite varied there. Dr Mew posted his email address on the FB group and I thought about emailing him even. Here's some opinions I've gotten about it:
- It's snake oil.
- It requires unrealistic compliance.
- Tipping teeth rather than moving bone.
- Traditional orthodontics can do the same, you just need the right guy.
What I haven't found is someone who went through the process. Nor have I found much information about how well tested the treatment is. Some of the stuff on Dr Mew's practice is suspect, such as NCR. There is someone a few hours away who offers Biobloc though and I'd consider getting an opinion. What's the basis for your opinion?
-
Well moles trip, it depends who your treating. NCR is only done on adults and its experimental since no one knows if decent change is possible in adults. As for children there's evidence that bioloc helps.
Unrealistic compliance =real change.
Why are we all here? The issue isn't with teeth but with actual facial growth. I'm behind the idea that each human could have potentially grown to a golden ratio. Facial growth that diverts from the ideal ratio is caused my environmental factors, not genetic ( in my opinion).
The way orthotropics helps is:
1) expands the jaw, if it's narrow
2) train the child to keep its mouth shut
3) trains the child the maintain tongue posture
I'd say go see an orthotropics specialist. It's just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.
-
The claim is that if you widen the maxilla then the mandible will follow. It's a pretty big gamble to take since you could easily end up with a crossbite that needs to be surgically narrowed later on.
I wore some kind of plate at the age of 7 for some months. I don't know what the purpose of it was. Cure my underbite? Anyway, when I had a Le Fort I recently my upper jaw had to be narrowed at the back, otherwise it would have been to wide for my lower jaw as it came forward.
-
@molestrip. I think they widen the maxilla only for the tongue to fit up there naturally. If your daughter has enough space for her tongue then she doesn't need to widen her maxilla.
Also check if she breathes through her nose during the day and night. At her age open mouth posture will have negative consequences.
-
Yes her tongue is too big for her mouth right now. I've discussed widening her maxilla with a few orthos but their response was that she'd develop a cross-bite. He mandible is comparably narrow. She doesn't nose breath well. My wife is always making excuses about it, saying she just has a cold or something like that. We have an allergist appointment in two weeks to get started. It's really hard to diagnose nose breathing problems because it's not black and white. It's like sometimes yes sometimes not. My 3yo son mouth breathes too btw. Sigh.
-
The number 1 goal should be for her to nose breathe, keep here mouth closed with teeth in light contact and rest her tongue on her upper palate.. I don't see how expanding the maxilla would cause a cross bite to happen. Also since she's still young I'm pretty sure they could expand the mandible with an appliance at the same time.
-
Mandible can't be expanded. Sutures fuse at 1 I'm told. Bones grow in harmony so there's reason to believe that expanding the maxilla past the mandible would result in some movement. My only concern is that there's not a lot of data regarding the practice. There's lots of ways to do it wrong and a few ways to do it right. You don't get a second shot.
-
molestrip, i'm not trying to be an asshole but consider leaving your kids be and not make their childhood about an odyssee to various doctors and biting on useless pieces of plastic.
i have no idea what you look like, but take a look in the mirror and take a look at your wife. if you are both unattractive and if one of you has similar problems as your kids (narrow palate, open bite, mouth breather) then SAVE YOUR MONEY instead of wasting it on childhood treatments which will either not work at all or reverse themselves during puberty anyway.
instead, let your kids have fun while they grow up - no functional ortho appliances, no braces, no bulls**t. save that money, shuttle your daughter at age 15 to a top maxfac and pay to fix whatever genetic horrors you bestowed upon her. this is honestly the best way of doing things, because from what you wrote your daughter will need surgery regardless of what you do now.
just my 2 cents.
-
I gotta agree with notrain - don't torture your kids. My childhood palatal expansion had to be undone during surgery. Wait till their growth is finished, 12 months of braces, surgery, done. And the money you save by not dragging them to the various quacks will probably pay for the surgery.