jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Emotional Support => Topic started by: backward lowerjaw on June 03, 2014, 11:06:45 AM
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I had jaw advancement this past February my upper jaw was moved forward by 5mm on the NHS. After the surgery i knew something was not right. My lower jaw felt it was in the wrong position and my upper jaw still felt back.
For months i thought i was going crazy, feeling depressed and shut myself off from everyone, every person i spoke to including 2 surgeons said my jaws were the same length.
I had to go to hospital due to to my lower jaw locking up on one side, clicking and popping when i closed my mouth and terrible headaches.
I finally saw a tmj specialist about 3 weeks ago i didn't say why i was there i wanted to see if she would know. After taking the JVA test i was right all along the surgeon got the measurements wrong on my upper jaw.
My lower jaw was trapped back causing me tmj problems this was because of the shoddy work of the orthodontist. The surgeon measured the distance from my back teeth of my trapped lower jaw. I am now starting to posture my lower jaw in a more comfortable forward position, there is no clicking now when i close my mouth and will soon be wearing an orthotic appliance to keep my jaw in the position followed by braces for this treatment is costing me ?10000! Not only this i am still a class 3 and my upper jaw still needs to go forward by another 4-5mm for another jaw surgery this will cost me another ?10000 with Johnson or Piet Haers (who the dentist i am with deals with) or ?13-?15 with Thuau.
It is so frustrating the orthodontist did not have a clue what he was doing he was an arrogant prick! When i told him about tmj he said this is the same as gum disease, nobody knows much about it and will sort it self out overtime he was just focused on straightening the teeth and not the function, my teeth were still torqued. I had an argument with him and discharged myself about 3-4 weeks ago, i have not worn the retainer and my teeth have moved but i'll be wearing braces again anyway.
I know this is quite long winded but, how would i stand about compensation or pursuing legal action? A lot of the personal injury claims are only if you are injured during surgery which i wasn't but they have proper f**ked up and it looks like it will be at my expense!
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I researched this a few months ago, iirc correctly there are a number of very well defined criteria that you must meet. Find a couple of specialised medical negligence practices and present your case to them, free of charge, they will tell you if you have a case worth pursuing - a lot of them work on a no win no fee basis so it's not in there interest to bulls**t you.
While in theory it has become easier to get compensation in this area over the last few years, I reckon you might struggle but I'm no expert on owt ;)
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it is a s**t one, i relly hope the ortho i am seeing is not a quack, she's very pretty and talks with an accent, be being a bloke i'm easily swayed.
In all seriousness i'm asking a lot of questions so far she seems good, too good to be true i will keep my eyes open and ears open this time with plenty of research
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how you getting on with your treatment Modigliana any progress at all?
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It's looking likely that I'm going to have to remortgage my house and get it done it the US :o
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You have to show that the surgeon/orthodontist failed to exercise reasonable care and skill.
Seems pretty easy on the face of it, but chances are, you'd need to provide the testimony of a maxfac surgeon or orthodontist, and as you can expect, that's gonna be close to impossible.
The reality is that you're not gonna win in court against an NHS surgeon, but if you threaten him and the ortho with legal action, you might get some sort of settlement.
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That's actually just brought a tear to my eye. Life is bulls**t they says things happen for a reason i just think that's bollocks and the f**kers always seem to get away with it. Not wanting to sound religious but there can't be a God when stuff like this happens unless he's got some sick sense of humour.
I take it there's no one in the U.K who will operate. You tried Triaca? I know he's expensive but he's much nearer.
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That's actually just brought a tear to my eye. Life is bulls**t they says things happen for a reason i just think that's bollocks and the f**kers always seem to get away with it. Not wanting to sound religious but there can't be a God when stuff like this happens unless he's got some sick sense of humour.
I take it there's no one in the U.K who will operate. You tried Triaca? I know he's expensive but he's much nearer.
The ones in the UK are prepared to operate but are reluctant to do nearly enough to fix me to an acceptable level, PJ reckons he can make a 60% improvement and straight out admitted I'm still going to look worse than I did before I let that monster touch me...frankly that's just not good enough. To be honest I haven't seriously considered Triaca, he seems like such an unknown quantity. My concern is that he's just another psycho surgeon, primarily concerned with his ego above all else.
Have you consulted with him?
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Thanks by the way, I've been feeling pretty s**tty today and your support has helped me more than you know. I guess you can relate as you're going through similar.
That god fella can go f**k himself as far as I'm concerned...unless he fancies performing a miracle or two of course ;)
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I haven't, there's a chap on here who was to have a skype consultation pretty soon i think his name is dillusional or something like that. Be interseting to see what he says.
I don't know much about US surgeons but there was someone who private messaged me who had a bad surgery and was looking at Posnick in Washington, Richard Joseph and Wolford she was traveling from the UK don't know if this helps. You seen anyone in the US?
At least Johnson was being honest, if you don't mind me asking how much out of pocket were you with that butcher!
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Was about 3000 Euro for the ortho and just over 12000 Euro for the op, although the cheeky bastards are still sending random bills, the last one was for 0.54 cents - it cost more to post it, that's the kind of mentality we're dealing with here!
Haven't seen anyone from the US yet but I suppose Arnett is the main man to see, he does tons of revision work. I fancied Joseph but he only sees patients in Florida unfortunately.
I'm looking forward to hearing Disillusions take on Triaca too. Could you not get a redo on the NHS?
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Maybe, but after what happened last time i felt like a nodding dog thinking i was lucky to get NHS treatment in the first place and to not piss them off, they made me feel that way. At least privately i'm making sure this is done correctly questions are fired left right and centre, the lady i am seeing said she's very surprised with how much knowledge i have on this. She's focusing on my tmj joints making sure the lower jaw is in the correct posiiton, that the tongue has enough room and the dental arches are not narrow, you wouldn't get this on the NHS.
I really hope i'm not reading this post in a years time and regretting it, i want to not be on this forum at all, that would mean it would be a success. It's never that simple, being a maloclusion 3 is s**t just feels like a foreign object in your mouth all the time it's unfair that we're the one's who have to pay for it. Oh well that's my moan over
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Man your story is so like mine. You would think the surgeon would have noticed that the teeth were not set up right for the surgery and taken steps to prevent the disaster before operating. I think he should also be held responsible, but having experienced the ignorance first hand I'm not surprised he isn't.
Was there an upward movement of your jaw toward the back? They did this to me and I think it adds greatly to feeling of my lower jaw being trapped because it has made what bite I have much deeper.
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he moved my upper jaw forward 4mm and 3mm, he didn't say anything about upward movement, my bite is deep i'm assuming because of the teeth being tilted.
My occlusal plane seems to be ok.
Does it look like it in my lat ceph?
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he moved my upper jaw forward 4mm and 3mm, he didn't say anything about upward movement, my bite is deep i'm assuming because of the teeth being tilted.
My occlusal plane seems to be ok.
Does it look like it in my lat ceph?
This does not look like a class 3 to me?
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This ceph probably shows him with his lower jaw retracted all the way back.
which will cause the joint to be in a bad position but will make it look like his bite is ok
note how cramped both jaws look. It just looks unnatural to me
It appears to me that there should be a lot more forward development of the jaws. When your lower jaw is in its resting position without tension then you will know where the upper jaw should be advanced to.
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You're starting to sound like these so called experts, i don't know if i should explain it or leave it to Ben.
My teeth were not aligned properly this pushed my lower jaw back in to a recessed position, my lower jaw should be forward which results into a class 3. My condyles is forced backwards into the fossa socket causing a lot of pain, clicking, popping on my tmj headaches and dizziness.
The problem with me is because my upper jaw was narrow due to having a deviated septum at 2 years old my upper jaw never grew forward either because i was mouth breathing
Take a look at the below video it explains it all in detail
Airway and TMJ English (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVxlL_lMces#)
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just realised you commented ben after i sent the post haha, you're the only one i know who has this problem. The f'n surgeons know but wont admit it.
i worried that when i go for my next surgery they will still not know how forward the upper jaw needs to go, my lower jaw knows it is not comfortable where it is but it hasn't found a home so to speak doesn't know where to rest.
What procedure you going for your next surgery will it be advancving the mandible and advancing the maxilla a bit further forward for forward growth or will be be single jaw surgery on your upper jaw?
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just realised you commented ben after i sent the post haha, you're the only one i know who has this problem. The f'n surgeons know but wont admit it.
i worried that when i go for my next surgery they will still not know how forward the upper jaw needs to go, my lower jaw knows it is not comfortable where it is but it hasn't found a home so to speak doesn't know where to rest.
What procedure you going for your next surgery will it be advancving the mandible and advancing the maxilla a bit further forward for forward growth or will be be single jaw surgery on your upper jaw?
Is it safe to have these jaw surgeries more than once? Don't you risk severely damaging yourself?
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Haven't really got a choice can't be walking around as a class 3. Its the functional side i want improved more than anything. It feel like my tongue is too long because it keeps hitting the alvenlar ridge due to the maxila being too far back
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Haven't really got a choice can't be walking around as a class 3. Its the functional side i want improved more than anything. It feel like my tongue is too long because it keeps hitting the alvenlar ridge due to the maxila being too far back
Have you had the opinion of another surgeon? I am seeing Piet Haers in a few weeks myself after my double jaw surgery on NHS relapsed slightly but I am very cautious about a second operation.
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is the consultation with piet haers private or nhs?
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The surgeons must be really lazy it boggles my mind when I think that I didn't get enough advancement due to the surgeon being a dumbass. This shouldn't be a concern for anyone having surgery and should mean we can sue them for big dollars. Everything was in such a rush with mine I very much doubt he put much time into considering my surgery. Probably the same thing happened with you. If either the ortho or the surgeon new what they where doing we would have this problem.
I had bicuspid extractions on my mandible, and then the spaces where closed in an attempt to correct my under bite. I've seen another Orthodontist and got an opinion. He thinks that the spaces need to be opened up again worsening my under-bite then have my upper jaw advanced accordingly. My upper jaw lacks transverse width too but I'm not sure I want to or can afford to widen it (the last attempt to widen it was a nightmare)
So I'm thinking just a simple advancement at this stage, probably lower my upper jaw back down too certainly I'll be making sure it isn't impacted anymore. I don't think I can have this surgery done in New Zealand the surgeons here just don't seem that on to it.
I'm taking legal action but it just seems the systems are so far ineffective when it comes to this kind of thing. The surgeons just say whatever they want. It was only the surgeons word that was consider in both investigations I've had done so far. They are so highly respected because they've had a lot of training so basically no one can challenge them and they can say what they like.
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It is a joke and then it turns out it's difficult to sue, i'm worried i'm going to have this advancement again and because my lower jaw does not know its correct resting place it will be messed up again i'm very worried.
Where would you be looking at going Australia?
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is the consultation with piet haers private or nhs?
It is private.
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Have you tried seeing him nhs? I know he does this in surrey hospital, how much does he charge for the consultation? Is it double jaw advancement you getting? I know Hears was trained by Sailer many moons ago. I read your other post if your ortho is suggesting extractions don't do it. Everyone who has had it done has regretted it look at Ben he is talking about reopening it now!
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Yep I'm thinking of Australia, if I ever get any money. I'll be hearing from my Orthodontist and Surgeon later this week, hopefully their attitudes have changed and they just pay me off to get rid of me. I wish I didn't live so far from their offices I'd be down there everyday with a sign saying Orthodontics nightmare or something to that effect. They wouldn't be able to do anything to me if I don't mention names and I'm on public property. I'm sure it would hurt them in someway and just add to the pressure just to get rid of this guy.
I had my extraction's as a teen, I think my under bite should naturally be very much worse than it currently is (This would be a good thing). I think the original dentist I saw should not have extracted but recommended me for surgery at a later date instead.
The extractions has damaged my face I'm sure of that probably because I was so young.
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Hi Ben,
If you're thinking of Australia, have you thought about seeing Dr. Paul Coceancig at Profilo?
Cheers!
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Have you tried seeing him nhs? I know he does this in surrey hospital, how much does he charge for the consultation? Is it double jaw advancement you getting? I know Hears was trained by Sailer many moons ago. I read your other post if your ortho is suggesting extractions don't do it. Everyone who has had it done has regretted it look at Ben he is talking about reopening it now!
No, I want a speedy appointment because I need to collate as much info as possible before I see my NHS surgeon in August to discuss my options. Fee is ?190 for consultation. I am not sure about the tooth extraction - he is recommending it to open up an underbite again so he can perform a second surgery, some people have extractions in an attempt to mask the class 3 by pushing lower teeth back.
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Hi Ben,
If you're thinking of Australia, have you thought about seeing Dr. Paul Coceancig at Profilo?
Cheers!
What concerns me is that he seems to have published almost nothing for all his "ground breaking" work.
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Oh, that's a good point. I was thinking about it though, and, frankly, I'm not sure that I care. It's a solid argument, but if he's the best choice for an individual, I could care less about what he has (or has not) published. That's just my thought process; I'm in NO way saying I'm right!
There's something that intrigues me about his work, but I can't really pin point what. For me, it's kind of like how I feel about Joseph, in Florida. They've both peaked my interest. I live in the US, and I'm actually considering Coceancig. (I acknowledge the potential of a complete s**t show that can occur when working with a surgeon half a world away.)
It was just a thought for people already considering Australia.
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I'm sure he would be cheaper than Joseph if you don't have insurance in America.
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I'm fortunate to have crazy good insurance, but many doctors do not practice within network. Like with Gunson, their anesthesiologist is in my network, as is the hospital they use, but Gunson is out of network (not only with my insurance, he is out of network with all insurance providers). You pay the surgeons fees, up front, then they will submit for you...and you pray to get a few pennies back. I hope I articulated that correctly.
Anyway, I know a few people have been looking for surgeons in Australia and/or New Zealand, so I just wanted to throw Coceancig's name out there.
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I just phoned his office I cant believe how expensive he is the x rays on top are 130 each, I'm going to try and get a cone beam to take with me I,m going to go see my original surgeon and show him what he has done to me once this is in hand. Johnson charges I think 160. do you know home double jaw surgery is with Haer? Johnson quoted arounf ?9700 and Thuau is between ?13 and ?15k without braces for both.
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I've been looking in to Paul Coceanig. I just did a little searching to see if he rubs shoulders with a dentist in Sydney who took the time to write me several detailed beautifully written emails helping me on my case. The dentists name is Trevor Barrett, anyway I found this discussion on linkedin. I've seen a lot of comments in discussions on linkedin by Trevor and he is impressive.
Read what he has written about Paul Coceanig work found in the link below
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/This-is-OMFS-surgeon-I-4289021.S.102509397 (http://www.linkedin.com/groups/This-is-OMFS-surgeon-I-4289021.S.102509397)
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Ben what's your opinion on Derek Mahony?
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I just phoned his office I cant believe how expensive he is the x rays on top are 130 each, I'm going to try and get a cone beam to take with me I,m going to go see my original surgeon and show him what he has done to me once this is in hand. Johnson charges I think 160. do you know home double jaw surgery is with Haer? Johnson quoted arounf ?9700 and Thuau is between ?13 and ?15k without braces for both.
Haer's charges ?190 for a consultation. Not sure on surgery prices as I am not meeting him for another few weeks.
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I've never had any dealings with Derek, well just one and it was a brief reply to an email requesting an opinion on my case. He replied to me which is good, many don't bother to reply especially to someone overseas who they are never likely to profit from.
I like his ideas and he is friends with the aforementioned Trevor Barrett. He realises the importance of clear nasal breathing, which so many practitioners don't have a clue about and since I've experienced its evils first hand I know they are speaking the truth. Basically these guys speak my language they know what makes a good looking face they know about health outside of their specialities which in my view puts them above most of their profession.
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The reason I ask the orthodontist I am seeing in London spent 4 years at the Buteyko Clinic in Australia she had 2 years of studies with Derek Mahony and is focusing on my lower jaw being in the correct position for maximum airway. She has just set up the tmj and sleep therapy centre here and knows her stuff, fingers crossed I will see her again on Monday and I want her to double check my lower jaw is in the correct position to get ready for surgery
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I see, sounds good
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I was just having another look at your ceph, judging by the angle of your spine at the base of the skull your posturing so that you have an airway. Your mandible looks like it is jammed right back. There is a lot to consider and I'm no expert but while your face may project forward more than some, as stated by the Mews (no disrespect intended), it maybe that your tending towards an ante face and so you need that forward projection to have harmonious function. Your lower jaw just looks to me like it wants to swing a long way forward. I think I'm similar, my bite is trapped like yours maybe not quite as bad in function, I've been dealing with it for over a year now. It has been very uncomfortable, I have been able to follow the advice (not given directly) of the Mews in my case without experiencing the lock out. Do I think it is right to do this? Well I'm not sure in my case, it is plausible that my jaw joint may adapt to its new position with time. If it does though I will still have recessed jaws and a compromised airway leaving me more susceptible to sleep apnea. I guess with the adaptation and the good posture of tongue over the years that my face may remodel and I'll avoid apnea but who knows.
Man the whole situation sucks for sure.
Now that you've been rushed to hospital because of your jaw locking out does that not bolster your case for legal action?
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That's actually just brought a tear to my eye. Life is bulls**t they says things happen for a reason i just think that's bollocks and the f**kers always seem to get away with it. Not wanting to sound religious but there can't be a God when stuff like this happens unless he's got some sick sense of humour.
I take it there's no one in the U.K who will operate. You tried Triaca? I know he's expensive but he's much nearer.
Can I ask which hospital you had this at?