jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: Optimistic on November 08, 2013, 05:21:25 AM
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This was discussed a bit previously, so I thought it deserved its own thread.
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Here are my own thoughts and questions regarding the ideal cheekbones in men, and how much lateral and forward projection they should have:
Many here seemed to believe that the key to achieving model-like cheekbones was to have plenty of lateral projection of the zygomatic arch. Presumably this would be to improve the facial width height ratio (FwHR). It was claimed that malars that are projected too far forward would appear feminine.
In addition to bringing the malars forward more a ZSO can also raise the position of the malar. Surely this alone would have something of a positive effect regardless of sex.
Many models do seem to have malars that come forward a lot, such as Simon Nessman. I've theorised that this also prevents nasolabial folds from forming. To counter this example would be Brad Pitt who if I recall correctly doesn't have malars that come forward much at all and doesn't have any nasolabial folds. Personally I find ones that come forward a bit to be more attractive. I can't say whether this is objectively the case or not.
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3324/gentleman8.jpg)
(http://ftape.com/media/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Simon_Nessman_Acqua-Di-Gio_FTAPE_01.jpg)
(http://movies.dosthana.com/sites/default/files/image-gallery/Brad%20Pitt-Still.jpg)
(http://www.hdwallpapers3d.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Brad-Pitt-photoshoot-HQ-brad-pitt-19187944-1000-1390.jpg)
So to what degree is this kind of cheekbone actually achievable via surgery (Nessman type)? Provided one has already acceptable malars could surgery give it that edge?
Really hoping falcao can chime in here with some of his wisdom on this topic. I'm trying to understand the relationship between the malars, ageing, and overall male aesthetics.
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There is NO POINT in comparing yourself to models. NONE. Do you compare your sprinting ability to Usain Bolt?
I'd sure love to be 5'10" instead of my midgety 5'1" but I am not running around looking for leg bone distraction. You have to be realistic with what you can achieve with surgery. Jaw surgery isn't like a rhino or lipo, where you can try and get a revision if it doesn't look quite right. You pretty much get what you get and that's it.
As someone who's had a bit of PS, yes, you do get improvements and increased confidence, but it's not like your entire life turns around magically overnight. It's a fallacy to think 'if only I could make my face look like this, then I could do X, Y and Z". I was like this about weight in my early 20s, always trying to lose that 'last 10 lbs', (I was a curvy 4-6 and wanted to be a 2-4) kidding myself that things would be different and my life would be better if I did. And then I lost the weight and nothing changed at all. You will feel great for a few months and then you will just raise your standards for yourself - this is why PS can be addictive
To answer your question, no, I have never seen this kind of cheekbone created via surgery. There are so few surgeons that do it in the first place which makes it difficult to give a definitive answer or find any examples. I have seen OK results using paste and believe that theoretically you could get a good result from custom implants with someone like Dr Y.
Also, if you wind up with really bad nasolabial lines at 40 then you can just get a cheek lift (midface lift) if they're bothering you that much. A much easier surgery than a ZMO or any jaw surgery
In short - do not read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly
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In short - do not read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly
I caught the reference ;D
That song almost changed my life when I heard it. Puts things in perspective.
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That song bores me to tears.
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That song bores me to tears.
In all serious - I have actually stopped buying women's fashion or beauty magazines, but if you spend an hour looking at pictures of airbrushed 16 year olds with the same twig arms and perfect faces, and then go and look at yourself in the mirror, it does make you feel like s**t. I'm also sick and tired of the beauty industry's lack of diversity...sometimes you see a few south east asian faces (they're "trendy" at the moment) but the dearth of african, latino, middle eastern, indian (etc) faces and bodies....I'm just sick of it. I won't watch the fashion channel on TV either. The ironic thing is that I work in fashion.
I got so mad a couple of months ago when a magazine editor rejected a set of our campaign shots and requested alternative pictures because we had used an arabic model and a mixed-race model. The justification was that 'our Arabic and Asian readers actually aspire to look European'. It's so stupid when market research actually show that people identify with a product more if that product is displayed on people who look similar to them. A lot of the other industries in this part of the world use racially ambiguous models.
Anyway, I digress. My point is that comparing your rowing ability to Sir Steve Redgrave will make you feel s**t at rowing, even if you're actually not that bad at rowing. Comparing your face to a models will make everyone feel ugly unless they are also a model
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In all serious - I have actually stopped buying women's fashion or beauty magazines, but if you spend an hour looking at pictures of airbrushed 16 year olds with the same twig arms and perfect faces, and then go and look at yourself in the mirror, it does make you feel like s**t. I'm also sick and tired of the beauty industry's lack of diversity...sometimes you see a few south east asian faces (they're "trendy" at the moment) but the dearth of african, latino, middle eastern, indian (etc) faces and bodies....I'm just sick of it. I won't watch the fashion channel on TV either. The ironic thing is that I work in fashion.
I got so mad a couple of months ago when a magazine editor rejected a set of our campaign shots and requested alternative pictures because we had used an arabic model and a mixed-race model. The justification was that 'our Arabic and Asian readers actually aspire to look European'. It's so stupid when market research actually show that people identify with a product more if that product is displayed on people who look similar to them. A lot of the other industries in this part of the world use racially ambiguous models.
Anyway, I digress. My point is that comparing your rowing ability to Sir Steve Redgrave will make you feel s**t at rowing, even if you're actually not that bad at rowing. Comparing your face to a models will make everyone feel ugly unless they are also a model
yeah this is really pathetic and will change. where i live in a fairly multicultural community all the fashion ads for the locale shops have nordic looking aryans in all their advertisements. Maybe 4 percent of the population of women here are 5'10 high cheekboned blondes. Whites will be a minority in about 20 years so it's going to definitely change.
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There is NO POINT in comparing yourself to models. NONE. Do you compare your sprinting ability to Usain Bolt?
I'd sure love to be 5'10" instead of my midgety 5'1" but I am not running around looking for leg bone distraction. You have to be realistic with what you can achieve with surgery. Jaw surgery isn't like a rhino or lipo, where you can try and get a revision if it doesn't look quite right. You pretty much get what you get and that's it.
As someone who's had a bit of PS, yes, you do get improvements and increased confidence, but it's not like your entire life turns around magically overnight. It's a fallacy to think 'if only I could make my face look like this, then I could do X, Y and Z". I was like this about weight in my early 20s, always trying to lose that 'last 10 lbs', (I was a curvy 4-6 and wanted to be a 2-4) kidding myself that things would be different and my life would be better if I did. And then I lost the weight and nothing changed at all. You will feel great for a few months and then you will just raise your standards for yourself - this is why PS can be addictive
To answer your question, no, I have never seen this kind of cheekbone created via surgery. There are so few surgeons that do it in the first place which makes it difficult to give a definitive answer or find any examples. I have seen OK results using paste and believe that theoretically you could get a good result from custom implants with someone like Dr Y.
Also, if you wind up with really bad nasolabial lines at 40 then you can just get a cheek lift (midface lift) if they're bothering you that much. A much easier surgery than a ZMO or any jaw surgery
In short - do not read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly
I'm not comparing myself to models, I'm just trying to understand the role malars play in ageing and male facial aesthetics. Forward projecting malars don't appear to look feminine and could possibly add support to the face, imo.
I'm still strongly considering get a ZSO with MM. I think I'll make a more definite decision when Falcao comes online again and I can talk with him, and also when I sign up to Miss J's forum to read the case of the botched ZSO by MM on some other guy.
Edit: Aren't nasolabial folds notoriously hard to completely rid via surgery? Anecdotally I've noticed that they're the biggest sign of ageing in both men and women, as well as being one of the few things that can't easily be concealed.
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Off topic: Comparing myself to models is pointless. Comparing Brad Pitt to models, however, is OK because they make him look like a schlub. I wonder if the looks gap in men is worse because women can at least use makeup.
Really off topic: To win Miss Universe you need perfect teeth. You don't need perfect teeth to be a top model.
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When I do a google image search for "Zygomatic Sandwich Osteotomy", the first result is a picture of a trannie.
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I'm still strongly considering get a ZSO with MM. I think I'll make a more definite decision when Falcao comes online again and I can talk with him, and also when I sign up to Miss J's forum to read the case of the botched ZSO by MM on some other guy.
I saw MM today but I didn't get a chance to ask him about the ZSO. It was in one of the public hospitals in Dubai and there were 4 other people in the room including two trainees and another maxfac surgeon, and I was with him for about 10 minutes only!
What he did say, however, is that he does do mandibular implants - custom made titanium ones made using 3D printing. It's very expensive but he does do it
In other news, apparently I can get full decomp via orthodontics alone and don't need upper surgery, only lower. Which is great. He also said that my upper lip folded inwards and shrunk because of my retroclined incisors and when they get put back in a good position, I will get much better support and the lip will be bigger
Edit: Aren't nasolabial folds notoriously hard to completely rid via surgery? Anecdotally I've noticed that they're the biggest sign of ageing in both men and women, as well as being one of the few things that can't easily be concealed.
I've seen pretty good results with a combination of cheek/mid-face lifting, laser treatment, and filler, actually. I think jowls are much more aging than nasolabial lines
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Why do most of you seem to assume that Weakjawbrah is hoping that this procedure will transform him into a model, or in fact that he's not good looking enough to model in the first place?
Sigh, at present we're conditioned to think if a woman wants pillow lips from fillers or breast implants, that's perfectly rational and almost normal.
A man says he want's to improve his cheekbones akin to male models... WTF ??? ::) People imply he reads too many fashion magazines and that this isn't a look he should aspire to.
Sorry, maybe the replies struck a nerve because I am interested in the procedure, but I like the male model look of strong sharp cheekbones, angles and concave cheeks. Not because it has been force fed to me through the media, I have always admired those features, is there something wrong with that?
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It's no surprise that most of these puahate style threads come form people who haven't had surgery/never going to have surgery. All this stuff about orbital rims, advancing the mid-face, malar osteotomies, no one who posts about this stuff is really serious. It's just a fantasy to these people. You see the same thing on plastic surgery boards, it's all just obsession
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It's no surprise that most of these puahate style threads come form people who haven't had surgery/never going to have surgery. All this stuff about orbital rims, advancing the mid-face, malar osteotomies, no one who posts about this stuff is really serious. It's just a fantasy to these people. You see the same thing on plastic surgery boards, it's all just obsession
I don't quite understand the amount of heat I'm getting from this thread. Just because I posted a picture of a model and an actor doesn't mean -I- want to look like that. I used them as two examples of attractive, masculine faces with radically varying degrees of forward projection of the malars (which is why you'll note I tried my best to find two photos taken at the same angle). Moreover I was wanting to understand how this plays into male aesthetics. For example, in another thread we discussed the differences between le forts and ZSO, the s-curve, and whether or not forward projecting malars made a face more feminine. Finally, as you can probably tell I'm curious about this from an ageing perspective as evidenced by my other thread regarding the effects of bone structure on the formation of nasolabial folds.
I'd also like to point out that I am indeed very serious about surgery given the number of consultations I've had with top surgeons now, I have an entire folder full of recommendations, scans, moulds and so forth, I'm actually wearing braces right now that are levelling my dental arches, compacting wisdom teeth as well as a bit of decompensation. I'll most likely be getting TAD's soon too in order to address my maxillary cant.
My surgery is not purely for aesthetic reasons, it's because I have an open bite that made it extremely difficult to eat and started giving me a lisp. It just so happens that since I need to get jaw surgery I might as well try and get the best aesthetic outcome possible. And if that includes other procedures then why not?
/rant
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I saw MM today but I didn't get a chance to ask him about the ZSO. It was in one of the public hospitals in Dubai and there were 4 other people in the room including two trainees and another maxfac surgeon, and I was with him for about 10 minutes only!
What he did say, however, is that he does do mandibular implants - custom made titanium ones made using 3D printing. It's very expensive but he does do it
In other news, apparently I can get full decomp via orthodontics alone and don't need upper surgery, only lower. Which is great. He also said that my upper lip folded inwards and shrunk because of my retroclined incisors and when they get put back in a good position, I will get much better support and the lip will be bigger
I've seen pretty good results with a combination of cheek/mid-face lifting, laser treatment, and filler, actually. I think jowls are much more aging than nasolabial lines
Hey, good news about the upper lip! I didn't know you had problems with it actually O.o
MM told me about the titanium implants he does in my last consult with him. Were you able to establish when he thinks implants are necessary? I know he prefers to use HA paste even though a few on here feel it's ineffective. He actually told me that he finds most patients come back to him wanting more HA paste done to further augment the jaw angles, which to me would imply that he feels a large amount of the stuff can be safely and effectively used for cosmetic purposes.
I'd be interested to see where he himself draws the line and would recommend a patient to get implants, or whether he only uses the implants when requested to. Any idea?
I suspect implants would be necessary to achieve the appearance of longer rami and an acuter gonial angle. I'm starting to question my original master plan of distraction, SSRO/IVRO's and BSSO to achieve the most augmented jaw naturally. I'll know more after I've spoken with the Dr from Profilo and then a third time with MM.
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My surgery is not purely for aesthetic reasons, it's because I have an open bite that made it extremely difficult to eat and started giving me a lisp. It just so happens that since I need to get jaw surgery I might as well try and get the best aesthetic outcome possible. And if that includes other procedures then why not?
/rant
I too have an open bite that causes trouble speaking in some respects. Do you know anything more about people's abilities to speak after their open bite is closed?
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I too have an open bite that causes trouble speaking in some respects. Do you know anything more about people's abilities to speak after their open bite is closed?
In my case I had a lisp when I was a kid, then grew out of that to speaking just like anyone else. It was only when my wisdom teeth erupted that I began experiencing difficulties with my S-sounds again. For what it's worth since my braces have begun to compact my wisdom teeth I've noticed my lisp has disappeared.
So if indeed your speech difficulties are caused by the open bite and not an inability to make the sounds themselves, then I'd say braces and surgery should correct that.
Hope that helps.
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In my case I had a lisp when I was a kid, then grew out of that to speaking just like anyone else. It was only when my wisdom teeth erupted that I began experiencing difficulties with my S-sounds again. For what it's worth since my braces have begun to compact my wisdom teeth I've noticed my lisp has disappeared.
So if indeed your speech difficulties are caused by the open bite and not an inability to make the sounds themselves, then I'd say braces and surgery should correct that.
Hope that helps.
It does, thanks.
Can't remember for the life of me if my speech improved when my open bite was closed...
I'd also bet a recessed maxilla can carry it's own difficulties with speaking.
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Hey, good news about the upper lip! I didn't know you had problems with it actually O.o
I don't...because I got filler! I've been having about 1/2 a vial of restylene into it for the past 18 months. I'm hoping after surgery that I won't need to :)
MM told me about the titanium implants he does in my last consult with him. Were you able to establish when he thinks implants are necessary?
I'd be interested to see where he himself draws the line and would recommend a patient to get implants, or whether he only uses the implants when requested to. Any idea?
I think when a patient wants significant elongation of the ramus and lateral augmentation. He brought them up himself when I was mentioning my short ramus. So I think to get the look that you want, it might be the best option.
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I don't...because I got filler! I've been having about 1/2 a vial of restylene into it for the past 18 months. I'm hoping after surgery that I won't need to :)
I think when a patient wants significant elongation of the ramus and lateral augmentation. He brought them up himself when I was mentioning my short ramus. So I think to get the look that you want, it might be the best option.
Interesting. I might talk to him about HA paste and an IVRO to see what that can achieve, and if I'm still not happy then I'll opt for implants. I've been analysing my face a bit more recently and I've come to the conclusion that I actually have pretty decent rami, they're just hidden because of the angle they come in at - something an IVRO can apparently help.
I'm still erring about this malar osteotomy. As you can see from my Brad Pitt example strong cheekbones really aren't essential for good looks, and I feel I'm already decent looking. I find it hard to justify that kind of risk. Perhaps it too can go on the back burner for a potentional second op along with implants ;D
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Interesting. I might talk to him about HA paste and an IVRO to see what that can achieve, and if I'm still not happy then I'll opt for implants. I've been analysing my face a bit more recently and I've come to the conclusion that I actually have pretty decent rami, they're just hidden because of the angle they come in at - something an IVRO can apparently help.
I'm still erring about this malar osteotomy. As you can see from my Brad Pitt example strong cheekbones really aren't essential for good looks, and I feel I'm already decent looking. I find it hard to justify that kind of risk. Perhaps it too can go on the back burner for a potentional second op along with implants ;D
I've seen class 3s with totally flat cheekbones get an OK result from paste so I imagine for someone with OK cheekbones, paste will give quite a good result, actually. I think a malar osteotomy might end up looking really unnatural
Also, the thing you need to bear in mind about these models with the sharp cheekbones, is that they're also really skinny, including the male models. Over the past couple of years I've lost some fat off my face and my cheekbones look a lot more prominent. I can see the same in my sister - she's got quite prominent cheekbones at her current size (US 2) but she used to be bigger (US 10) and they wen't very obvious then. The 'plus' size models who are successful are the ones who naturally don't carry a lot of fat on their face
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I've seen class 3s with totally flat cheekbones get an OK result from paste so I imagine for someone with OK cheekbones, paste will give quite a good result, actually.
Could you please post the links to these case?
I think a malar osteotomy might end up looking really unnatural
Also, the thing you need to bear in mind about these models with the sharp cheekbones, is that they're also really skinny, including the male models. Over the past couple of years I've lost some fat off my face and my cheekbones look a lot more prominent. I can see the same in my sister - she's got quite prominent cheekbones at her current size (US 2) but she used to be bigger (US 10) and they wen't very obvious then. The 'plus' size models who are successful are the ones who naturally don't carry a lot of fat on their face
Well, then famous pro bodybuilders would be a good case study (there are heaps of photos of them with extremely low and normal BF %). Say, Dorian Yates. A quick google image search showed little difference. In-contest-form his simply face looks haggard, rather than defined.
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Well, then famous pro bodybuilders would be a good case study (there are heaps of photos of them with extremely low and normal BF %). Say, Dorian Yates. A quick google image search showed little difference. In-contest-form his simply face looks haggard, rather than defined.
Have you never seen someone going from overweight to normal or thin and see their face shape change? Honestly? Come on. Obviously it's not going to make as much of a difference on those with poor/undefined bone structure but but the face carries fat, and if you lose the fat, you will see more definition. (but not become a supermodel ::) )
As far as I understand it, weakjawbrah has normal cheekbones (rather than flat like class3s often are). But is not as thin as a model and that's where part of the cheek concavity comes from - good cheekbones AND low body fat. I've got a friend who is a boxed and every time he drops weight for competition his cheekbones appear more prominent and he has more cheek concavity
Casting calls for plus size models almost always state 'slim face'
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Have you never seen someone going from overweight to normal or thin and see their face shape change? Honestly? Come on. Obviously it's not going to make as much of a difference on those with poor/undefined bone structure but but the face carries fat, and if you lose the fat, you will see more definition. (but not become a supermodel ::) )
Hmm... I've heard the opinion that heavy women often have "good faces", "if only they'd lose weight". Maybe because heavy often implies "big boned" which implies strong facial features...
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cant control where you gain fat. some people gain fat in the face, others dont.
Yes exactly. Successful plus size models are the ones who don't tend to carry much fat on their faces. But everyone carries fat on their face to some degree and it's not massively common to see really concave cheeks on someone who isn't on the slim side of average
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I carry quite a bit. It sucks balls when young but it's good for when you get older (or so they say). I'm 26 but usually get pegged for 23 or younger because of my roundish face, full cheeks and small chin. Which is actually kindof lame because I own a business and really want to be taken seriously which can be hard when you're the same height as the average 12 year old!
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Yes exactly. Successful plus size models are the ones who don't tend to carry much fat on their faces. But everyone carries fat on their face to some degree and it's not massively common to see really concave cheeks on someone who isn't on the slim side of average
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I carry quite a bit. It sucks balls when young but it's good for when you get older (or so they say). I'm 26 but usually get pegged for 23 or younger because of my roundish face, full cheeks and small chin. Which is actually kindof lame because I own a business and really want to be taken seriously which can be hard when you're the same height as the average 12 year old!
I have a soft face and broad to boot. The upside - no wrinkles @ 36. I hope Le Fort 1 advancement will stretch the flub. But if they set back the lower jaw... May end with a moonface.
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Do you think UV exposure makes any difference? For the record, I've stayed out of the sun most of my life.
It makes a huge difference. A lot of my friends have their first wrinkles. I avoid the sun and have none at all...I'm 26 and usually get pegged at 21-24
If you want to improve the skin, get retin-A and use it every 3 days or so. It's one of the only things that actually works on a cellular level.
Other than that, lasers e.g. fraxel
Most skin creams are useless unless they're prescription
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Well, then famous pro bodybuilders would be a good case study (there are heaps of photos of them with extremely low and normal BF %). Say, Dorian Yates. A quick google image search showed little difference. In-contest-form his simply face looks haggard, rather than defined.
That's because the gear they're running causes face bloat. If they were natural then their faces would at some stage lean out. You can't be that low in BF% and have a chubby face.
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That's because the gear they're running causes face bloat. If they were natural then their faces would at some stage lean out. You can't be that low in BF% and have a chubby face.
When on stage they are on a massive amount of diuretics (the leading cause of death for pro bodybuilders).
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I don't know what y'all smoking but brad pitt does have prominent cheekbones, the pictures posted here are him in his mid 30s, while those models are in their early 20s so it make a different, here are picture of brad in his 20s:
(http://cdn.vogue.mx/uploads/images/thumbs/201221/brad_pitt_un_hombre_de_elegancia_atemporal_296621136_862x.jpg)
(http://static5.imagecollect.com/preview/560/4aa563478ddf9d1)
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The high cheekbones gaunt look that some of you are after is a combo of both bones and soft tissue distribution, reason why some assumed Brad does not have prominent cheekbones is because his soft tissue distribution is different than your typical gaunt male model.
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we still need to solve this problem.
i don't know if sinn's "modified lefort III" will do much. remember soft tissue reacts differently.
i've heard it's 3:1 bone to soft tissue changes. SO just think, I had 6mm advancement of upper jaw, but that only showed up as 2mm. Do you think that's even really noticeable. give me a break.
So on me I'd have to have like 2 cm advancement on cheekbones to get the effect I want no doubt.
I'd need 1cm of my own bone (the max i think sinn can do is like 8mm) so then 1cm of advancement with HA bone graft or some s**t. Actually the way to do it would be to interpose the ha block between the osteotomy, not as an onlay. If Sinn could pull that off then maybe we'd be getting somewhere with some bad ass changes.
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we still need to solve this problem.
i don't know if sinn's "modified lefort III" will do much. remember soft tissue reacts differently.
i've heard it's 3:1 bone to soft tissue changes. SO just think, I had 6mm advancement of upper jaw, but that only showed up as 2mm. Do you think that's even really noticeable. give me a break.
So on me I'd have to have like 2 cm advancement on cheekbones to get the effect I want no doubt.
I'd need 1cm of my own bone (the max i think sinn can do is like 8mm) so then 1cm of advancement with HA bone graft or some s**t. Actually the way to do it would be to interpose the ha block between the osteotomy, not as an onlay. If Sinn could pull that off then maybe we'd be getting somewhere with some bad ass changes.
This isn't so true at the zygomatic arch... It's close to 1:1 I would think
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I was planning on starting my own ZSO thread.
Way to rain on my parade Millis >:(
:P
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I was planning on starting my own ZSO thread.
Way to rain on my parade Millis >:(
:P
What more is there to say about ZSO, this forum is pretty slow I don't think theres any new information to contribute
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Yeah actually I do not have anything original to say about the technical aspects of the zso but I have recently seen a few B n A s(non clinic) and I feel some of the criticisms of this osteotomy may be unfounded or coming from an unrealistic perspective.
The crux of my post was going to be the B n As of a poster who had for a while agreed that I could post the pics with eyes/lower face covered. I wanted to get people's opinions on that...maybe the posters who had criticized the "low augmentation" in former posts. To me the results look decent. Nothing dramatic but worth the cost/risks. Unfortunately the user has disallowed me to post the pics last minute. So idk.
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and PS = Initially your re awakening of this thread dint make any sense because your post showed only Lazlo's quoted text.
Yeah you are probably right about the zygomatic arch but everyone contemplating these procedures should have low facial fat .
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Yeah actually I do not have anything original to say about the technical aspects of the zso but I have recently seen a few B n A s(non clinic) and I feel some of the criticisms of this osteotomy may be unfounded or coming from an unrealistic perspective.
The crux of my post was going to be the B n As of a poster who had for a while agreed that I could post the pics with eyes/lower face covered. I wanted to get people's opinions on that...maybe the posters who had criticized the "low augmentation" in former posts. To me the results look decent. Nothing dramatic but worth the cost/risks. Unfortunately the user has disallowed me to post the pics last minute. So idk.
That's a shame, there are next to no real ZSO before and afters so it would be really great to see what it could do. What do you think of this particular users improvement? Are his zygos more 'chiseled' and masculine, are they higher, do his arches they protrude more? How many mms does it look like? What difference in attractiveness is there?
Feel free to make a thread, you're not going to be arrested. It's strange to feel that you aren't at liberty to make a thread on some slow little aesthetic surgery forum. I make threads on whatever, whenever I like.
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This specific users situation definitely improved with the ZSO imo. He also had a chin wing and some soft tissue work so at first that stuff was eclipsing the relatively subtle improvement in the cheek area.
He did not have "high" cheekbones but imo he looked good after. I was curious whether people who have criticised the "low augmentation" would also find his result "meh" . In the case to me , they just have unrealistic expectations about what an osteotomy can do in that region.
lol man I was just joking a bit , because at the time I thought You had simply brought an old thread to life for no reason. Your post did not show.
Its all good. Right now without the B n As , I have nothing to contribute regarding the ZSO . Maybe the user will change his mind.
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IF YOU ARE GOING TO MOVE ALL ZYGOMATIC BONE INCLUDING MASSETER MUSCLE, BE CAREFUL
This is what can happen http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6746.msg56774#msg56774