jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: x on August 11, 2013, 02:31:53 AM
-
How does one avoid losing this with maxillary advancement? I guess this is what people referred to with the midface falling behind
Notice how this guy's under cheek area becomes less concave after his upper jaw is brought forward, so he loses all the definition in 3/4ths view? It seems like you'd have to move the entire zygomatic bone forward in conjunction with the upper jaw to offset the advancement, and then get a genioplasty to account for the loss in chin projection relative to the face. either that or tip the inferior part of the maxilla forward and leave the superior part in place or let it fall back a little (guess this would happen a bit with CCW as long as maxillary advancement doesn't offset it)
(http://i.imgur.com/qWE7aCC.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/E4hw11t.jpg)
-
Happens here too. Wow, blows.
(http://i.imgur.com/qVeptMh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/pUELu70.jpg)
-
What do you mean exactly? Can you circle it? haha
-
What do you mean exactly? Can you circle it? haha
look at the outline of his face from 3/4ths:
(http://i.imgur.com/lxdAV3s.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/I7JNeAz.jpg)
Notice how before his cheekbone and chin projected furthest from his face, and then there was a concavity between the two? And after that definition was washed out and a convex bulge was created in the lower cheek area?
The concave look is much more attractive imo:
(http://i.imgur.com/Q3tyG1h.jpg)
-
I see now.
I'm unaware of if one look or the other is objectively more favourable, but maybe I'm wrong? the first guy you posted appears to have exceptionally weak malars, perhaps even recessed. It's no wonder he doesn't have that "concave look" - which was really flat - that he had before. Also the photo of the model you posted is at a slightly different angle with his head tilted downwards, thus bringing the chin further back.
The second photo you posted never had that look to begin with, and has a chubby face. The third has two different angles creating that look. She's far more side on in the before.
Obviously there is an aesthetically positive relationship between strong cheekbones and jawline, but I don't think this is much to worry about.
Edit: Ok I see a bit more what you mean about with actual maxillary advancement affecting this. I'm guessing malar augmentation wouldn't alter this at all then, huh? Still I'm unsure about whether one look is objectively better than the other. Where did you read about this?
-
No you're absolutely right Euphoria. This is a huge problem of most leforts and we've discussed it under different guises before on many threads. A/G deal with it by HA grafting the malar/cheekbone area. People with strong cheekbones don't have this problem. It's often referred to as the S curve from a 3/4 view. well an S in reverse so the cheekbone swoops out, we move in at the cheeks and another swoop out for a strong chin. It's a strong mark of an attractive face --all models have it as do most attractive people. Jaw Surgery, esp. a more linear advancement will f**k THIS UP. You'll be chipmunk cheek/monkey mouth man.
So, the only option is to either get implants, HA grafting (which is pretty ineffectual and doesn't work really as we've seen) OR have a HIGH lefort which brings the face out higher up plus a ton of grafting done to the cheekbone area. It's a huge problem the perfect solution is of course the quadrangular lefort 2 with bone grafting --but it's more invasive, more risks.
-
No you're absolutely right Euphoria. This is a huge problem of most leforts and we've discussed it under different guises before on many threads. A/G deal with it by HA grafting the malar/cheekbone area. People with strong cheekbones don't have this problem. It's often referred to as the S curve from a 3/4 view. well an S in reverse so the cheekbone swoops out, we move in at the cheeks and another swoop out for a strong chin. It's a strong mark of an attractive face --all models have it as do most attractive people. Jaw Surgery, esp. a more linear advancement will f**k THIS UP. You'll be chipmunk cheek/monkey mouth man.
So, the only option is to either get implants, HA grafting (which is pretty ineffectual and doesn't work really as we've seen) OR have a HIGH lefort which brings the face out higher up plus a ton of grafting done to the cheekbone area. It's a huge problem the perfect solution is of course the quadrangular lefort 2 with bone grafting --but it's more invasive, more risks.
Why do you think HA grafting is ineffectual?
-
Why do you think HA grafting is ineffectual?
i think it can be used to balance out a bit, but I've personally never seen it produce an impressive fill or augmentation to the malar region or the lower orbital rim in a way that really affects the soft tissue.
-
Very meh alternatives. The Quad Leforts have potential, but where the hell are the befores/afters??
It's a sign of good bone structure when the ogee curve exists. Losing it just makes his face look fatty and lacking in definition
Eupho is on the money!
-
Guy #1's upper jaw was clearly over-advanced
The other 2 results are well done, that girl ended up with an amazing profile
-
Guy #1's upper jaw was clearly over-advanced
The other 2 results are well done, that girl ended up with an amazing profile
the girl's aight
-
You brah's should go see the film ELYSIUM which dropped this weekend. At one point this brah's face gets blown off, but cause it's the future a couple of brah's put him in this healing pod and program it to perform a "maxillofacial avulsion" and it rebuilds his whole face from scratch. And I was like f**k yeah! They brah's on jawsurgeryforums would luv this s**t! The neeeeed this sheeeet.
-
Guy #1's upper jaw was clearly over-advanced
The other 2 results are well done, that girl ended up with an amazing profile
profile is a dumb benchmark, she looked nearly supermodel tier from profile and her frontal just looks decent
-
jay leno is a good example of an excessively long lower face
(http://www.goodguys.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/jay-leno-picture-2.jpg)
-
profile is a dumb benchmark, she looked nearly supermodel tier from profile and her frontal just looks decent
that is because there is no way to significantly improve a face from the front unless a person has a really pronounced over-bite (gummy smile in particular), under bite or severely recessed jaws (just IMO)
jaw surgery in general is mostly about self-perception, people are more likely to notice that you had your braces removed than your actual surgery outcome
-
well it's true that you can't fit a round peg in a square hole, his face was never built to be compact nor would surgeons suggest it I doubt.
if his midface were as short as DiCaprio's, then a surgeon would probably be looking to significantly shorten his lower 1/3rd: http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/28500000/Leonardo-DiCaprio-leonardo-dicaprio-28581909-2560-2530.jpg (http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/28500000/Leonardo-DiCaprio-leonardo-dicaprio-28581909-2560-2530.jpg)
tastes do matter, but surgeons are looking to normalize a face. Unfortunately for some people that clashes with the other components of their face (like guy in OP)
Leonardo Dicaprio is so hot and dreamy. I'm gonna watch Titanic now and masturbate.
-
that is because there is no way to significantly improve a face from the front unless a person has a really pronounced over-bite (gummy smile in particular), under bite or severely recessed jaws (just IMO)
jaw surgery in general is mostly about self-perception, people are more likely to notice that you had your braces removed than your actual surgery outcome
yeah the irony of bashing the 'smile-focused' orthos here is that for most people, a good smile is the most pronounced change from surgery. barring a blatant deformity
the girl's gestalt looks better, but the rounding of the side of the face is still there and I wanted to make my point about it since it does happen
-
Leonardo Dicaprio is so hot and dreamy. I'm gonna watch Titanic now and masturbate.
gaze at his smile aesthetics and weep
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g3gH_bAJe80/TZjNt0PhIEI/AAAAAAAAAd0/EClrUR4WhFg/s1600/Leonardo%252525252BDicaprio%252525252BTitanic-767342.jpg)
-
You need to lighten up on the douchiness, it can't be good for your health
Hilarious.
Poor orbital rims look bad. Excessive impaction looks bad. These are both incredibly obvious, but when a face is unnaturally long surgeons are following the rule of facial 1/3rds to 'normalize' a face. People rarely look good with a 1/3rd out of proportion
I don't disagree with any of that, but that kind of sensible comment is not what I'm reading on the boards. Time and time again people put forward the idea that shortening a face leads to facial attractiveness. If you're face is unnaturally/bizarrely long that might be true. Most of the time it is not.
Also I don't even think that guy had an impaction, linear advancement of the maxilla is all I'm seeing
He probably had some impaction to balance out the forward movement.
-
nah brah, this is my world welcome to it you live in it now! weak orbital rim f**ker.
You're the c*nt who wants to have most of his face cut off and moved forwards to fix his orbital rims. For all you know my orbital rims could be f**king awesome. ;)
-
gaze at his smile aesthetics and weep
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g3gH_bAJe80/TZjNt0PhIEI/AAAAAAAAAd0/EClrUR4WhFg/s1600/Leonardo%252525252BDicaprio%252525252BTitanic-767342.jpg)
Why has this forum suddenly turned queer?
-
He probably had some impaction to balance out the forward movement.
what?
linear advancement addresses a horizontal issue, impaction addresses vertical. your post doesn't compute bro
-
Why has this forum suddenly turned queer?
cause i'm bi b*tch and I'll f**k you till you luv me like a little b*tch.
-
You're the c*nt who wants to have most of his face cut off and moved forwards to fix his orbital rims. For all you know my orbital rims could be f**king awesome. ;)
to the first part my response is: so? to the second part: unlikely.
-
Why has this forum suddenly turned queer?
what's wrong overbiter? you never had luv from the homies? never had your s**t pushed in?
-
to the first part my response is: so? to the second part: unlikely.
Well, they don't look like much right now because my jaws are f**ked up. Maybe when I've had surgery they might be ok/better. I'm hoping anyway.
-
what's wrong overbiter? you never had luv from the homies? never had your s**t pushed in?
I hope for your sake that you're not a white guy typing like that. As for the rest, the answer is no, but don't let me spoil your bi fun. Just leave me out.
-
what?
linear advancement addresses a horizontal issue, impaction addresses vertical. your post doesn't compute bro
Impaction is routine after horizontal movement. The philtrum often looks longer after horizontal movement, so surgeons impact. You should know that by now. It's probably why his face looks weaker after surgery.
-
Impaction is routine after horizontal movement. The philtrum often looks longer after horizontal movement, so surgeons impact. You should know that by now. It's probably why his face looks weaker after surgery.
I've never heard of that happening. sounds like a crackpot theory to keep in line with your length is good belief
edit: dug up his info. no mention of impaction, get mad:
"Fig. 2. (A) Case of retromaxillism with transverse deficiency and mandibular retroalveolism. (B) Mandibular anterior alveolar distraction using a hinge-joint bone plate to allow rotation. Simultaneous correction of the transverse maxillary deficiency by way of surgically assisted rapid palatal expansion. (C) Once the dentition is fully decompensated, the class III skeletal profile becomes more evident. The open spaces distal to the canines will be managed by the placement of implants. (D) Preoperative and postoperative lateral cephalometric radiographs showing a LeFort I advancement, mandibular BSSO setback, and vertical chin augmentation. (E) The clinical outcome, showing an improved aesthetic midfacial to lower-facial relationship. Once the patient is debanded, osseointegrated implants are placed in the dental gaps. With the mandibular setback comes an improvement in the contour of the gonial angle."
-
getting sick of this manic obsession with the cheekbones. cheekbones dont matter that much, cheekbones r often accentuated (particularly in models) because their features and proportions are top 1%. the problem is depressed and weak upper face relative to the lower.
a longer midface is worse anything.
look at someone like shia labeouf. when he was 15-18 he looked like a nerdy weak teenager:
(https://lilyincanada.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/louisstevensthenpic-509.jpg)
now he gained loads of muscle and lost fat and is super ripped:
(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1700000/Shia-shia-labeouf-1701213-1024-768.jpg)
his cheekbones, in fact whole upper face is flat . guess if his nose was smaller it would make his face seem much longer. so lucky him.
-
getting sick of this manic obsession with the cheekbones. cheekbones dont matter that much, cheekbones r often accentuated (particularly in models) because their features and proportions are top 1%. the problem is depressed and weak upper face relative to the lower.
a longer midface is worse anything.
look at someone like shia labeouf. when he was 15-18 he looked like a nerdy weak teenager:
(https://lilyincanada.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/louisstevensthenpic-509.jpg)
now he gained loads of muscle and lost fat and is super ripped:
(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1700000/Shia-shia-labeouf-1701213-1024-768.jpg)
his cheekbones, in fact whole upper face is flat . guess if his nose was smaller it would make his face seem much longer. so lucky him.
Shia is hot as f**k now!
-
for sure. i think a lot of guys can achieve that level of handsomeness if they work on their bodies.
DAMN RIGHT, buT MOST PEOPLE ARE LAAZY
-
DAMN RIGHT, buT MOST PEOPLE ARE LAAZY
so true.
-
getting sick of this manic obsession with the cheekbones. cheekbones dont matter that much,
Stop hating on cheekbones CK. It's the only good part of my facial bone structure. Unlike you class 3 lot I've got no chin or jaw angles so let me feel good over my cheekbones
TBH most people look weird as a teenagers. When I was 14 I had the body of a 10 year old but my lumpy nose had grown onto my tiny child face. And I had braces. Not a good look.
-
Cheekbones are important to attractiveness just like any other component of the face. Not essential cause you can lack cheekbones and overcompensate in other features, but there's more to a face than just length. and you can't really tell us what matters and what doesn't cause we all have deficits in one area and strengths in another
cheekbones are a weakness for me, so I've given them more attention than, say, the chin
-
Cheekbones are important to attractiveness just like any other component of the face. Not essential cause you can lack cheekbones and overcompensate in other features, but there's more to a face than just length. and you can't really tell us what matters and what doesn't cause we all have deficits in one area and strengths in another
cheekbones are a weakness for me, so I've given them more attention than, say, the chin
We need a jaw surgery singles evening so all the class 2s can hook up with class 3s and rid the next generation of both chinless wonders, flat-cheeked pirhanas and quack orthodontists.
-
We need a jaw surgery singles evening so all the class 2s can hook up with class 3s and rid the next generation of both chinless wonders, flat-cheeked pirhanas and quack orthodontists.
or they all end up with our worst features lolol
"i inherit my piranha jaw from my father and gummy smile from my mother :D"
-
or they all end up with our worst features lolol
"i inherit my piranha jaw from my father and gummy smile from my mother :D"
It's the risk you have to take. But then they might be so ugly they don't get to reproduce. Or their bites would be so bad they might starve or suffocate in their sleep. Natural selection
Incidentally, why has natural selection allowed so many humans to have messed up jaws? All my dogs have perfect gnashers. Only really inbred dogs have underbites.
-
Incidentally, why has natural selection allowed so many humans to have messed up jaws? All my dogs have perfect gnashers. Only really inbred dogs have underbites.
according to Weston Price it's the result of western diet / lifestyle
(http://www.tngparentsgroup.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/four_healthy_people.117101356_std.jpg)
not sure I buy any of that
-
according to Weston Price it's the result of western diet / lifestyle
(http://www.tngparentsgroup.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/four_healthy_people.117101356_std.jpg)
not sure I buy any of that
I don't think it's diet per se but I do have a hunch that the neolithic revolution weakened our genome a bit via various mechanisms (which I'm not going to expand cos it's just my personal theories and probably total bollocks etc.) But to imply that we were some kind of super-humans with perfect teeth, faces, health etc in the pre-agricultural period is clearly an exaggeration. And that's coming from someone who's been on the paleo diet for years.
-
I don't think it's diet per se but I do have a hunch that the neolithic revolution weakened our genome a bit via various mechanisms (which I'm not going to expand cos it's just my personal theories and probably total bollocks etc.) But to imply that we were some kind of super-humans with perfect teeth, faces, health etc in the pre-agricultural period is clearly an exaggeration. And that's coming from someone who's been on the paleo diet for years.
yo what do you eat on a typical day, i wanna know what strict paleo people eat in a day? are you strict (i.e. no rice, yogourt, beans/legumes, etc)?
-
I have an underbite, yet everyone says I look like my father. He has flat cheekbones, but a correct bite. My mother and her father have an underbite, but big cheekbones (especially my mother). So I got my father's flat cheekbones and my mother's large lower jaw. Joy.
I am really worried about looking like a chimp after Le Fort 1. The surgeon said he'll "cut higher to fill out the midface"... And if he moves back my lower jaw (my only masculine feature)... Doubts are creeping in.
-
Plosko.....who is your surgeon?
-
Euphoria is right. Cheek concavity, as he calls it, or at least flatness, I would say, is essential for any man who aspires to look good. And by this I don't even mean S curves, prominent cheekbones or anything in that sense. I just mean flatness or even hollowness (concavity) in that area defined by the two points up from your zygomatic/orbital complex down to your paranasal area. And for that you need good cheekbones/orbital complex, good maxilla and little to no fat. I dare you find any man who looks good and who does not have that concavity or at least flatness. Good looking men - they may not have an S curve, but they will be at least flat between those two points. And the opposite is always true. The opposite cases are almost always accompanied by excess soft tissue - fat, skin, even muscle... (so you have under-eye hollows and nalsolabial folds typical of ageing or of faces in fat people), malar-orbital and paranasal deficiencies. Solutions - augmenting the zygomatic/orbital and paranasal areas or taking away any fat in between. Some doctors venture to do micro-liposuction there, although apparently it's risky as it can lead to skin ptosis. But I know some of them that do it. It can work on some younger patients with good skin elasticity and you may find yourself with good prominent cheekbones even though you did not have any implants or osteotomies in the malar area. You simply removed the fat, a process that chiseled your face. Even a little can make a difference, where indicated (not always). You may even get the S curve. Do not confuse this with buccal fat - it's a completely different fat compartment in the face. That's why buccal fat removal doesn't work. People expect to have a model, chiseled face after buccal fat removal and yet it does s**t except in some rare cases where it is a problem to begin with (very rare in non-fat men).
Don't neglect the paranasal area as it is crucial for right support there. You need flatness/concavity in anything in-between these two areas, and you need good bone support/projection in both these points, if you're going to have flatness/concavity. Weak/deficient paranasal area is almost as problematic as weak/deficient malar/orbital area. Why? Because your soft tissue - especially true as it is ageing and descending - does not have enough support. And do not think of your late 50s here, think of a process that starts in your late 20s. This creates the complete opposite of cheek concavity look. My point is, you can have great prominent cheekbones, but if your paranasal area is deficient, you won't have cheek concavity. For a concave curve, you need two good points mathematically, one is not enough.
To sum it up - if you're flat there, you're probably fine - you don't have to do anything at all and stop obsessing as you're probably looking in the wrong direction. If you're concave, you may even have the S curve. But if you're not and you want to look good, you'd better start augmenting or taking away from the right places. Or accept that you'll never look good. Again, I dare you find any example who would prove that I'm wrong. Whenever I see an ugly male face, it's always either a very weak jaw, a very long mid-face (philtrum especially) or the opposite of cheek concavity. Most often the last one.
-
Talking about cheek concavity - I find Marco Mengoni's transformation interesting. Look at this
http://www.clandestinoweb.com/wp-content/uploads/mengoni-grasso-2.jpg (http://www.clandestinoweb.com/wp-content/uploads/mengoni-grasso-2.jpg)
Now he has one of the best facial bone structures I've seen in a man. In the past, you could have said that he had the complete opposite of cheek concavity. His cheekbones - although they are perfect now, looked non-existent before. He has a beautiful S curve now, he had none in the past. Solution? apparently, he did not have any surgeries at all. All he did is loose fat. Even if you're not fat at all, do not underestimate the effect of excess soft tissue there, which you may have genetically.
-
Plosko.....who is your surgeon?
PMed it to you. Chose him because he seems more interested in aesthetics in general. (The first surgeon I saw hardly even mention mid-face deficiency, just talked about the bite). He wants to fix my nose as well, but only straighten it, because "It's mainly the crook and the receded maxilla that make it look big. When your nose is straight and the maxilla advanced, it will be good enough. Besides a small nose will not suit your big face". Wants to do it at the same time as the jaw surgery. I told him that usually people wait a year for the swelling to come down, etc.. He told me that I'm not a model with a tiny nose tip.
My chin is long, but pointy (and I have a wide jaw). I asked about genioplasty (widening it). He said it's actually indentation/tapering in my jaw that can be filled in with HA paste (no need for osteotomy).
When I pushed him about aesthetics in general ie. is it worth going through all the trouble of jaw surgery just to come out looking different, rather than better. He said that tastes differ, but at the very least I'll have a good bite.
I asked him about cutting nerves (have you ever?). He said he cut plenty of nerves (!), and whoever claims to never have done so after doing thousands of operations is a liar. Said he stretched far more than he cut. And it's more of a problem in paediatric cases, when nerves grow in funny ways due to congenital disorders, but my nerves are pretty obvious, and I should be OK. Fun guy!
-
Talking about cheek concavity - I find Marco Mengoni's transformation interesting. Look at this
http://www.clandestinoweb.com/wp-content/uploads/mengoni-grasso-2.jpg (http://www.clandestinoweb.com/wp-content/uploads/mengoni-grasso-2.jpg)
Now he has one of the best facial bone structures I've seen in a man. In the past, you could have said that he had the complete opposite of cheek concavity. His cheekbones - although they are perfect now, looked non-existent before. He has a beautiful S curve now, he had none in the past. Solution? apparently, he did not have any surgeries at all. All he did is loose fat. Even if you're not fat at all, do not underestimate the effect of excess soft tissue there, which you may have genetically.
Both jaws advanced. The cheekbones look pretty damn good. Almost a different person.
http://jawsurgerycamilla.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/before-after1.jpg (http://jawsurgerycamilla.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/before-after1.jpg)
BTW, I have flattish midface (underbite). I came back from a holiday a couple of months back, losing 3-4 kilos in the process. My parents told me that I looked like s**t and I should never again let myself become "so emaciated". And, no, I was not anorexic, or anything. So I'm looking forward to moving my maxilla forward, so I can then try to get down to 10% b.f. and not look haggard.
-
Both jaws advanced. The cheekbones look pretty damn good. Almost a different person.
http://jawsurgerycamilla.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/before-after1.jpg (http://jawsurgerycamilla.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/before-after1.jpg)
BTW, I have flattish midface (underbite). I came back from a holiday a couple of months back, losing 3-4 kilos in the process. My parents told me that I looked like s**t and I should never again let myself become "so emaciated". And, no, I was not anorexic, or anything. So I'm looking forward to moving my maxilla forward, so I can then try to get down to 10% b.f. and not look haggard.
This girl looks great - I payed close attention to this as she has a similar profile to me. Her cheekbones are strong before (common in class 2s) but the surgery (?rotation in the upper jaw) really made them pop. There's a similar result in a woman with short face pre op
-
Talking about cheek concavity - I find Marco Mengoni's transformation interesting. Look at this
http://www.clandestinoweb.com/wp-content/uploads/mengoni-grasso-2.jpg (http://www.clandestinoweb.com/wp-content/uploads/mengoni-grasso-2.jpg)
Now he has one of the best facial bone structures I've seen in a man. In the past, you could have said that he had the complete opposite of cheek concavity. His cheekbones - although they are perfect now, looked non-existent before. He has a beautiful S curve now, he had none in the past. Solution? apparently, he did not have any surgeries at all. All he did is loose fat. Even if you're not fat at all, do not underestimate the effect of excess soft tissue there, which you may have genetically.
so falco, basically you're saying that something to advance the maxilla and orbital rim, but leave the midface at a lower plane than those two would be ideal. in other words a higher cut lefort would bring the midface out but still leave the orbital rim depressive. yet celticcavegirl is saying some sort of rotation can make the zygomatic arch more prominent? I'm a bit confused now. could someone diagram this?
-
Perhaps celticcavegirl is right. What I may add is that that girl may have lost A LOT of weight post-surgery, as it usually happens. Even if as little as 5% of that weight loss is in the face, it will show hugely. It may have accentuated her already existing, good cheekbones.
What I'm trying to say, you have to account for soft tissue (especially subcutaneous fat) in this type of analysis. That's why I posted the case of Marco Mengoni. Look him up or watch one of his videos on youtube. He is the perfect example, an epitome for concave cheeks that we discuss here. Yet before his weight loss, he was the complete opposite of that - his face had no definition at all, and not even a hint of cheekbones or an S curve. Soft tissue thickness and distribution is crucial in looking good. You may be overanalysing the case of that woman - her transformation in the upper mid face and the better definition may be a simple case of big weight loss. Think also of professional athletes, one digit body fat percentage - watch any athletic championship and notice how so many of them have that concave cheeks look. Of course, it's not a bullet-proof method - soft tissue is not fat only and even if it is, some people may drop huge amounts of weight but still (genetically) retain the fat in their cheeks. But for many people, including Marco Mengoni, it works perfectly in transforming their faces from highly unattractive to highly attractive.
-
What I am saying is that increasing the vertical dimension of the posterior face via maxillary rotation will stretch out the cheek fat and make the cheekbones appear much more prominent. You see it in this girl and in that blonde girl.
I can also see this result very clearly in myself - I have strongish cheekbones but quite fat cheeks, plus a deep bite. If I close my bite, I don't have the S-curve; all the cheekfat is pushed up. If I open the bite (but keep the mouth closed), then the concavity appears (as I'm increasing the vertical dimension and stretching out the tissue), and the cheekbone appears a lot more defined, but is actually the same size. Does that make sense?
Lazlo, re: paleo - I mainly eat meat, fish, vegetables and eggs. I eat organic goat yoghurt, cheese and keffir sometimes (2 times a week?) after being non-dairy for 2 years (my ancestry is northern european/middle eastern/central asian so I feel it's not that bad for me). I rarely eat rice but sometimes have a little sushi or tahdeg (this is the crispy bottom you make when cooking rice the persian way). I used to be 100% strict, very low carb paleo but it f**ked up my thyroid (common in women) so now I'm about 15-20% carbs, 30-35% protein, 45-55% fat. I never eat vegetable oils except coconut and raw olive oil, never eat legumes, never eat processed or junk food. It was easier when I lived in london (quality of food in the gulf is poor and everything goes off in about 2 days)
A typical day might look like this
breakfast
2 eggs, + extra whites, square of 85% chocolate
lunch
sashimi, prawn, avocado and seaweed salad
dinner
chicken thighs, vegetables (I do have some carby root veggies like carrots, squash, parsnips as well as green veggies)
I'm quite little so don't need to eat a lot, about 1200-1500 cals a day (at the moment I don't exercise a lot after the kickboxing nose-breaking incident, I'm doing 2x hiphop dance class (90 mins) and 2x weights (30 mins) a week)
Paleo is expensive if you're bigger and have to eat 3000+ calories a day!
-
What I am saying is that increasing the vertical dimension of the posterior face via maxillary rotation will stretch out the cheek fat and make the cheekbones appear much more prominent. You see it in this girl and in that blonde girl.
I can also see this result very clearly in myself - I have strongish cheekbones but quite fat cheeks, plus a deep bite. If I close my bite, I don't have the S-curve; all the cheekfat is pushed up. If I open the bite (but keep the mouth closed), then the concavity appears (as I'm increasing the vertical dimension and stretching out the tissue), and the cheekbone appears a lot more defined, but is actually the same size. Does that make sense?
Lazlo, re: paleo - I mainly eat meat, fish, vegetables and eggs. I eat organic goat yoghurt, cheese and keffir sometimes (2 times a week?) after being non-dairy for 2 years (my ancestry is northern european/middle eastern/central asian so I feel it's not that bad for me). I rarely eat rice but sometimes have a little sushi or tahdeg (this is the crispy bottom you make when cooking rice the persian way). I used to be 100% strict, very low carb paleo but it f**ked up my thyroid (common in women) so now I'm about 15-20% carbs, 30-35% protein, 45-55% fat. I never eat vegetable oils except coconut and raw olive oil, never eat legumes, never eat processed or junk food. It was easier when I lived in london (quality of food in dubai is poor and everything goes off in about 2 days)
A typical day might look like this
breakfast
2 eggs, + extra whites, square of 85% chocolate
lunch
sashimi, prawn, avocado and seaweed salad
dinner
chicken thighs, vegetables (I do have some carby root veggies like carrots, squash, parsnips as well as green veggies)
I'm quite little so don't need to eat a lot, about 1200-1500 cals a day (at the moment I don't exercise a lot after the kickboxing nose-breaking incident, I'm doing 2x hiphop dance class (90 mins) and 2x weights (30 mins) a week)
Paleo is expensive if you're bigger and have to eat 3000+ calories a day!
hey yes, that makes sense, i notice the same thing too when i open my bite but keep my mouth closed. so you're saying that if that rotation of the maxilla with advancement will produce that look even when your bite is closed? i have a lot of orbital rim deficiency i think so either my cheekbones need to go up higher on my face or i need the orbital rims advanced along the posterior axis, my width is fine. thanks for the paleo outline --i've switched to a very similar diet except one of my meals is a green smoothie with gluten free non gmo rice protein (i know not paleo technically, but it's too much cooking otherwise!).
-
. so you're saying that if that rotation of the maxilla with advancement will produce that look even when your bite is closed?
In my case it might - because I've got a deep bite and vertical deficiency in the posterior face, but strong-ish cheekbones. Rotation would open up the bite (I don't need advancement, and I know that girl says she had advancement but it mainly looks like rotation from the sketch)
I think you only really get the obvious result in short faces/deep bites that already have decent cheekbones
-
FWIW,
This guy's maxilla was advanced 9 freaking mm.
http://youtu.be/2pb2QLQWQ-k (http://youtu.be/2pb2QLQWQ-k)
I think he's #10 from the bottom:
http://www.drwittenberg.com/photo-gallery/upper-jaw-gallery.html (http://www.drwittenberg.com/photo-gallery/upper-jaw-gallery.html)
IMO, looks better in the video than in the photo.
-
Good results on that surgeons website. Not in US though
-
Quite nice ramus enlargement results. Do we think it's paste or implants?
-
Quite nice ramus enlargement results. Do we think it's paste or implants?
Who's ramus was enlarged?
So is there a consensus on whether advancing both jaws sacrifices cheek concavity?
-
Who's ramus was enlarged?
So is there a consensus on whether advancing both jaws sacrifices cheek concavity?
i don't think it necessarily does. i think people with initially shorter faces, they look better after bimax because the rotation and advancement of the maxilla makes the cheekbones pop more, whereas people with longer faces, (I THINK) sacrifice cheek concavity since the midface comes out more, instead of the top part. it's probably more complicated than that having to do with soft tissue variabilities etc. etc. honestly one top surgeon i talked to said it's really tough to predict how the undereye or cheekbone area will look after surgery --anyone who says they can predict is is bssing....though i wonder with the new 3D mri and imaging systems if they can get a bit closer....i don't think so honestly.
-
FWIW,
This guy's maxilla was advanced 9 freaking mm.
http://youtu.be/2pb2QLQWQ-k (http://youtu.be/2pb2QLQWQ-k)
I think he's #10 from the bottom:
http://www.drwittenberg.com/photo-gallery/upper-jaw-gallery.html (http://www.drwittenberg.com/photo-gallery/upper-jaw-gallery.html)
IMO, looks better in the video than in the photo.
Yeah that is him (on the website you linked)
9mm is way too aggressive *imo*, his upper lip (philtrum) blew up in size. he looks good though.
-
not really, this type of thing is REALLY easy to fix with fat grafting which has been concentrated with adipose stem cells. in fact, they're getting better and better at this all the time. this is the last thing to worry about. and also, i know several people who are guys in fact who have had these mini-face lifts and fat grafting done in their early 30s!
The doc who did my lip filler said that in women you begin to see volume loss between 28-33 onwards. Rhino surgeon said the same. In men, about 34 onwards
Aging is caused first by fat loss, second by wrinkles, gravity and loss of skin density and elasticity and thirdly by bone loss.
Fat loss and be improved with fillers and fat grafting (the latter being a lot better!)
Skin issues can be improved by lasers, peels and facelifts
Bone loss is pretty difficult to fix - it affects the entire facial skeleton. But keeping healthy, full-size teeth is a good start
-
The doc who did my lip filler said that in women you begin to see volume loss between 28-33 onwards. Rhino surgeon said the same. In men, about 34 onwards
Aging is caused first by fat loss, second by wrinkles, gravity and loss of skin density and elasticity and thirdly by bone loss.
Fat loss and be improved with fillers and fat grafting (the latter being a lot better!)
Skin issues can be improved by lasers, peels and facelifts
Bone loss is pretty difficult to fix - it affects the entire facial skeleton. But keeping healthy, full-size teeth is a good start
do you have any before and after pics of your lip filler? would be ver interested to see the look, or maybe just an after? if you'd be more comfortable you can share on the private forum.
-
Who's ramus was enlarged?
So is there a consensus on whether advancing both jaws sacrifices cheek concavity?
I agree with Lazlo, I think it's more a short face/long face thing. If you're short faced then vertically lengthening the jaws in theory could stretch the soft tissue more taut which is what gives that concave look in the first place. It will also lengthen the distance between the cheekbone and the jawline, the hollow area
But I haven't ever seen a person come out of surgery with that concave look unless they're already 90% there, so I wouldn't factor the possibility of losing it much into your decision..
-
I agree with Lazlo, I think it's more a short face/long face thing. If you're short faced then vertically lengthening the jaws in theory could stretch the soft tissue more taut which is what gives that concave look in the first place. It will also lengthen the distance between the cheekbone and the jawline, the hollow area
But I haven't ever seen a person come out of surgery with that concave look unless they're already 90% there, so I wouldn't factor the possibility of losing it much into your decision..
Thanks for your input, I have some concavity now and definitely want to keep or even exaggerate it, as it's a look I've always been fond of.
A maxfac wants to perform bimax on me with some slight chin impaction and advancement, advancment of the jaws would be linear I believe.
-
Get your cheekbones right here...
http://www.synthes.com/sites/NA/Products/CMF/DistractionOsteogenesis/Pages/Midface-Distractor.aspx (http://www.synthes.com/sites/NA/Products/CMF/DistractionOsteogenesis/Pages/Midface-Distractor.aspx)
-
do you have any before and after pics of your lip filler? would be ver interested to see the look, or maybe just an after? if you'd be more comfortable you can share on the private forum.
Both are already in the private forum! I'm very conservative with how much I get
Also, you can do a lot more with makeup than you can with filler.
I'm hoping I get some improvement when my upper incisors are put back in the right place. MM said that lack of lip support had made my upper lip turn inwards
-
Both are already in the private forum! I'm very conservative with how much I get
Also, you can do a lot more with makeup than you can with filler.
I'm hoping I get some improvement when my upper incisors are put back in the right place. MM said that lack of lip support had made my upper lip turn inwards
Lack of upper lip support from the lower lip? Like your upper lip droops and rounds inward because it doesn't hit the lower? Or is it just a matter of your upper arch?
-
Lack of upper lip support from the lower lip? Like your upper lip droops and rounds inward because it doesn't hit the lower? Or is it just a matter of your upper arch?
No, it's because the teeth are pulled and slanted inwards, so the upper lip kindof follows it
I have a deep bite so my lower lip is everted. Which makes it bigger, but means I can't wear lipstick.
-
it depends on how your features mesh.
this guy posted a couple pages back (https://www.google.ca/search?q=Marco+Mengoni&biw=2560&bih=1139&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkt_fY-KXJAhXKQCYKHa62B3MQ_AUICCgD#imgrc=Xod4adS6M5nAzM%3A) has flat cheekbones yet according to google hes famous and goodlooking.
also looking at recent pictures of shia, his eye look better.
This looks super interesting. i wonder if any surgeons use this.seems like a better option that just filling the space with some bone substitute.
http://www.synthes.com/sites/NA/Products/CMF/DistractionOsteogenesis/Pages/Midface-Distractor.aspx
-
I don't want to start a new topic. I will bump this.
I like the cheek concavity look, will lefort basically ruin this?
-
This is what may happen if your surgeon change zygomatic bone position too much
http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6746.msg56774#msg56774
be careful