jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: BurnSoul on March 13, 2024, 08:34:17 PM
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My face grew in a weird way where my eyes are literally almost floating since they have no support on the lower part. Almost none. My jaws aren't underedveloped. Just my zygomatic (cheekbones) are. And so my infraorbital space is non existant. I have a negative vector and eyes are just floating. What ways are there that have to do with bone without fillers or implants? I've been looking almost a year for different surgeons on this matter and have found little success. A modified lefort for someone with a bit of a long face and flat cheekbones seem to happen in the articles of the cases and they look just like me. What are the options for this? where?
I've been looking and calling different doctors and they either don't answer or redirect me with soomeone else.
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It is an extremely esoteric operation. The only suggestion I can offer is to look in the bibliography in articles of cases you've come across in hopes to find a name cited of a doctor possibility.
My face grew in a weird way where my eyes are literally almost floating since they have no support on the lower part. Almost none. My jaws aren't underedveloped. Just my zygomatic (cheekbones) are. And so my infraorbital space is non existant. I have a negative vector and eyes are just floating. What ways are there that have to do with bone without fillers or implants? I've been looking almost a year for different surgeons on this matter and have found little success. A modified lefort for someone with a bit of a long face and flat cheekbones seem to happen in the articles of the cases and they look just like me. What are the options for this? where?
I've been looking and calling different doctors and they either don't answer or redirect me with soomeone else.
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It is an extremely esoteric operation. The only suggestion I can offer is to look in the bibliography in articles of cases you've come across in hopes to find a name cited of a doctor possibility.
I've been doing just that these couple days. No luck. I only encounter doctors i've already contacted or ones with no way of reaching them. Obwegeser seems not contactable and all the others redirect. I wonder if there is nothing to be done to bring the infraortibal part forward. I'd post an image to have your opinion Kavan if that is okay? If Modified lefort 3 is impossible there I'm just looking for the next best solution that are not implants.
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I've been doing just that these couple days. No luck. I only encounter doctors i've already contacted or ones with no way of reaching them. Obwegeser seems not contactable and all the others redirect. I wonder if there is nothing to be done to bring the infraortibal part forward. I'd post an image to have your opinion Kavan if that is okay? If Modified lefort 3 is impossible there I'm just looking for the next best solution that are not implants.
My opinion is not going to make modified L3 available. If implants are off the table for you, than my opinion would not make a better option available either. You can post photos if you like. But what's the point if the only option is implants that you don't want.
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I've been browsing a TON of posts here and you are in a lot of them. I said opinion hoping you would know something more than me or someone. Earl thing is exactly what Is happening to me. I will show you. Would sending you the pic by PM be okay? Then we continue here. Or post it here and delete later? But yeah basically my jawws developed. Infrorbital part, malar, zygoma didn't. My eyes bulge out. I would need what Earl got but seems Sinn has retired. By the looks of it he is the ONLY person in the world that did that. I can't find anything. I'm becoming a bit less hopeful. I can't for the life of me find anyone that does what Sinn did.
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I've been browsing a TON of posts here and you are in a lot of them. I said opinion hoping you would know something more than me or someone. Earl thing is exactly what Is happening to me. I will show you. Would sending you the pic by PM be okay? Then we continue here. Or post it here and delete later? But yeah basically my jawws developed. Infrorbital part, malar, zygoma didn't. My eyes bulge out. I would need what Earl got but seems Sinn has retired. By the looks of it he is the ONLY person in the world that did that. I can't find anything. I'm becoming a bit less hopeful. I can't for the life of me find anyone that does what Sinn did.
N0! There is NOTHING I can do about ML3 doctors not being available to you.
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I misread your previous reply. It's alright then. Thank you either way.
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Also I wondered if there was any other procedure than ML3 that's what I meant.
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Okay, so I have spoken with Earl via email a lot in the past, and even he wasn't completely satisfied with the procedure. On top of that, if you think about it, it's going to leave a step off since you can't really curve/shape bone specifically enough. There is also of course blindness risk to an L3 cutting so close to optical nerves. An implant is probably going to be better and more reversible. Nothing is really ideal here. I'd tread slowly and lightly and get at least 10 opinions on something this serious.
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You've seen me GJ. Step off makes sense. I'd assume bone would heal and close off but I guess it doesnt? I can't have the mental image of the step off or where it is in my head right now but it makes sense. Sinn was a master. He made that surgery and Earl recovered better than lefort 1 people do. I just don't want having 0 CHEEKbones and the pressure in my eyes of having no infraorbital floor. Varbrah also got it, i've tried getting in contact with him to no success. I find no one, no doctor or person willing to talk about it. Only threads here made in the past. Implants are a joke, you age and they look worse and worse plus it's just aesthetic. I want a permanent solution and solves not only aesthetic but the fact that my eyes are almost floating. I keep looking and contacting doctors. I contacted Raffaini but he doesn't seem to do it plus he wants people to go to italy for consultation.
I want to keep hope up but seems like i'm late since sinn retired. I want to contact people he trained, but I doubt anyone will do modified lefort 3 for aesthetic or flying eyeballs reason.
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I'm not even sure if this is possible, but to avoid the step off it would require sculpting some type of graft (bone or HA) in the eye socket area - just seems super sketchy and un-probabilistic it would work. To imagine a step off, image a staircase with steps. As one step moves forward in relation to the other, there's a ledge that's left at that transition point. That's what makes them steps. So, I think you'd have this near your eye socket. My guess is your eyes would look more deep set as the bone in front moves forward, and if a ledge forms, that would be an entirely different look. Kavan, do you agree with this? I think a ledge would form...
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I'm not even sure if this is possible, but to avoid the step off it would require sculpting some type of graft (bone or HA) in the eye socket area - just seems super sketchy and un-probabilistic it would work. To imagine a step off, image a staircase with steps. As one step moves forward in relation to the other, there's a ledge that's left at that transition point. That's what makes them steps. So, I think you'd have this near your eye socket. My guess is your eyes would look more deep set as the bone in front moves forward, and if a ledge forms, that would be an entirely different look. Kavan, do you agree with this? I think a ledge would form...
I'll tell you what I don't agree with. I don't agree with spoon feeding people who fly in here seeking out MLF3 who need special advice because 'Earl had one'. I'm including an entry to that effect that I made some time ago which applies to people who fly in here for any type of coaching in pursuit of what Earl had. Earl did this on his OWN. He is really smart guy to do on his own with NO coaching from anyone else. So, I use the same standard for other seeking what he had. Here is what I said long while ago and it still holds:
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"Ever since Earl's story, so many people come here wanting to be SPOON FED info about L3s and various permutations of 'modified' L3's.
Earl's real story is that he did research ON HIS OWN (medical journals), knew exactly what he wanted and WHY and had a very strong preference in favor of bone cuts over orbital rim implants and of course had the prominent eyes (bug eyes). I think he took a few years of lots of research into the medical papers and consulting around based on the knowledge he ACQUIRED on HIS OWN to cross reference with a good handful of doctors he traveled far to consult with and subsequently chose the doctor he chose.
So NONE of this stuff was handed to him on a platter (or spoon fed) on here as is the case of most of the people coming to JSF looking to be spoon fed info on L3s and various modifications thereof. In fact, a few people who just blindly fell into Earl's doctor's lap 'because Earl did it' could not have possibly been as well prepared as he was in terms of IDing themselves as ideal candidates for orbital rim area advancements this way because they didn't get the extent of improvement he got.
There is ample info out there on L3s and modifications thereof. But finding requires RESEARCH ABILITIES in addition to having the salient anatomy underbelt and ability to 'digest' medical articles and/or a long time to increase knowledge that way as to 'digest' conceptual material.
In essence Earl had the ability to FIND information on this (appropriate med journals) on HIS OWN and to PROCESS it in ACCORDANCE to his aesthetic situation and had all that UNDERBELT when he consulted with a variety of doctors. Also, he knew enough to pursue that surgery AFTER he got his jaw situation in balance.
Seriously, a LOT of the people flying in here wanting to know about L3s have acquired jacks**t info on their own, need to be spoon fed and demonstrate very little capacity to process information. Any doctor you consult with won't be spoon feeding it either and acquisition of knowledge, ON YOUR OWN (like Earl did) will be needed to increase the level of info you get from any consult you go on. That said, be careful about riding on someone else's coat tails for esoteric surgeries like chin wings and L3s . I find that people who are successful with the more esoteric surgeries are good researchers and good at processing complex information and don't need mother bird to chew up and spit out the worm for them.
That said, my policy on 'spoon feeding' is I will sometimes do it for people having a hard time with some of the JAW BALANCE relationships (Lefort1, BSSO and genio) but NOT for the L3s. This is because people coming to a JAW SURGERY forum demonstrate some to enough understanding of jaw to jaw relationships to fill in some of the blanks they have. But about 90-95% of those coming here wanting to know about L3s (or think they need them) are just TOO FULL of BLANKS to fill in for them.
Hence, my policy is for people wanting what Earl had is to BE LIKE EARL and do their own research as he did. Then come back with some demonstration of knowledge in that regard and only a FEW blanks needed to be filled in. Of course, my policy on this does not preclude others who want to tell you all about L3s in the absence of even seeing what you look like."
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I've seen this reply of yours before Kavan. I undertand where it's coming from. I assure you I've rented a TON of articles. I would appreciate to know if there are noteable articles on it that are hard to find. Like I said, i've even tried contacting said doctor of said article. I even had a consultation with one.
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I'll tell you what I don't agree with. I don't agree with spoon feeding people who fly in here seeking out MLF3 who need special advice because 'Earl had one'. I'm including an entry to that effect that I made some time ago which applies to people who fly in here for any type of coaching in pursuit of what Earl had. Earl did this on his OWN. He is really smart guy to do on his own with NO coaching from anyone else. So, I use the same standard for other seeking what he had. Here is what I said long while ago and it still holds:
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"Ever since Earl's story, so many people come here wanting to be SPOON FED info about L3s and various permutations of 'modified' L3's.
Earl's real story is that he did research ON HIS OWN (medical journals), knew exactly what he wanted and WHY and had a very strong preference in favor of bone cuts over orbital rim implants and of course had the prominent eyes (bug eyes). I think he took a few years of lots of research into the medical papers and consulting around based on the knowledge he ACQUIRED on HIS OWN to cross reference with a good handful of doctors he traveled far to consult with and subsequently chose the doctor he chose.
So NONE of this stuff was handed to him on a platter (or spoon fed) on here as is the case of most of the people coming to JSF looking to be spoon fed info on L3s and various modifications thereof. In fact, a few people who just blindly fell into Earl's doctor's lap 'because Earl did it' could not have possibly been as well prepared as he was in terms of IDing themselves as ideal candidates for orbital rim area advancements this way because they didn't get the extent of improvement he got.
There is ample info out there on L3s and modifications thereof. But finding requires RESEARCH ABILITIES in addition to having the salient anatomy underbelt and ability to 'digest' medical articles and/or a long time to increase knowledge that way as to 'digest' conceptual material.
In essence Earl had the ability to FIND information on this (appropriate med journals) on HIS OWN and to PROCESS it in ACCORDANCE to his aesthetic situation and had all that UNDERBELT when he consulted with a variety of doctors. Also, he knew enough to pursue that surgery AFTER he got his jaw situation in balance.
Seriously, a LOT of the people flying in here wanting to know about L3s have acquired jacks**t info on their own, need to be spoon fed and demonstrate very little capacity to process information. Any doctor you consult with won't be spoon feeding it either and acquisition of knowledge, ON YOUR OWN (like Earl did) will be needed to increase the level of info you get from any consult you go on. That said, be careful about riding on someone else's coat tails for esoteric surgeries like chin wings and L3s . I find that people who are successful with the more esoteric surgeries are good researchers and good at processing complex information and don't need mother bird to chew up and spit out the worm for them.
That said, my policy on 'spoon feeding' is I will sometimes do it for people having a hard time with some of the JAW BALANCE relationships (Lefort1, BSSO and genio) but NOT for the L3s. This is because people coming to a JAW SURGERY forum demonstrate some to enough understanding of jaw to jaw relationships to fill in some of the blanks they have. But about 90-95% of those coming here wanting to know about L3s (or think they need them) are just TOO FULL of BLANKS to fill in for them.
Hence, my policy is for people wanting what Earl had is to BE LIKE EARL and do their own research as he did. Then come back with some demonstration of knowledge in that regard and only a FEW blanks needed to be filled in. Of course, my policy on this does not preclude others who want to tell you all about L3s in the absence of even seeing what you look like."
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My reply didnt register properly when I quoted you, but I said I will look into more articles.
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My reply didnt register properly when I quoted you, but I said I will look into more articles.
I edited out the statement that you put inside my quoted comment.
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I've seen this reply of yours before Kavan. I undertand where it's coming from. I assure you I've rented a TON of articles. I would appreciate to know if there are noteable articles on it that are hard to find. Like I said, i've even tried contacting said doctor of said article. I even had a consultation with one.
The take home message of my statement is that I don't spoon feed with help about pursuing ML3. So, those wanting this need to rely on their own smarts and ability to research and go on many consultations as did Earl. Not my task here to compensate for any lapses of abilities or luck in that regard.
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Alright that is your choice. I respect that.
I will still be open to anyone here who has information on this. I'd greatly appreciate it. Mentally it's really leading me to weird places and I'd rather get it treated or if not consulted with someone who knows about malar region osteotomies extensively. I'm also open to new articles on the matter. I am at a dead end where I do not know where to go from here.
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Alright that is your choice. I respect that.
I will still be open to anyone here who has information on this. I'd greatly appreciate it. Mentally it's really leading me to weird places and I'd rather get it treated or if not consulted with someone who knows about malar region osteotomies extensively. I'm also open to new articles on the matter. I am at a dead end where I do not know where to go from here.
Here's a CLUE that you may have missed in Earl's story that I relayed.
1: He went on MANY consultations. Gee, that must have because he knew enough to know that going on many consultations with doctors who did Lefort 3's would kick up more information then bemoaning on this board that he couldn't get all the info he needed from here. I bolded out the word; 'many' and also your word; (only) 'one' (consultation) in hopes that you would get the CLUE that MANY in person consults are needed in this pursuit.
2: The other CLUE inherent in the mention of consulting (in person) with MANY doctors is that a large 'dragnet' would need to be cast to find ANY doctor who would be willing to perform the type of modification of the (whole) L3 that earl wanted. So, he made the LOGICAL DEDUCTION, that doctors who could do L3s MIGHT be able to MODIFY it for his needs. So, the fact he had to consult with MANY doctors who did L3s to find ONE who would do a ML3 suggests he didn't really find a selection of doctors actually openly offering ML3. If there were doctors out there openly offering ML3s to target for ML3s, he would not have had to cast a large net to consult with MANY doctors who did L3s just to FIND OUT if ANY could accommodate him. From this MANY, he found ONE.
So, the 'conCLUEsion' to be made here is this isn't a procedure doctors want to openly offer or foot e-mail questions about. Some say to do that type of surgery, a neurosurgeon needs to be on board. Others who do L3s would rather do the complete ones only syndrome cases who also need the L1 aspect of it. So, if you even hope to find one, you too would have to consult with MANY doctors who perform L3 (and don't say anything in writing about wanting ML3). It boils down to a situation where you need to be IN the doctor's office as to let him see you don't need a full L3. When he tells you that you don't need a full L3, THEN ask if there is any way he can just advance the part you want advanced. You need to get your foot in the door to a doctor's office who performs the (whole L3's) to bring forth the possibility of it being modified for you and you've gotta be able to foot a lot of rejections in the asking just to find ONE out of the many. That is how it goes.
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The take home message of my statement is that I don't spoon feed with help about pursuing ML3. So, those wanting this need to rely on their own smarts and ability to research and go on many consultations as did Earl. Not my task here to compensate for any lapses of abilities or luck in that regard.
Why? If you know something share it. That is the purpose of the forum. It's not to hoard information, increasing the odds someone gets a failed procedure, and then judge people who don't want to read textbooks. This makes you look worse than the person asking a question.
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Why? If you know something share it. That is the purpose of the forum. It's not to hoard information, increasing the odds someone gets a failed procedure, and then judge people who don't want to read textbooks. This makes you look worse than the person asking a question.
Did you not notice I took some time in my last entry to share some information with him? Keep in mind, I am a volunteer here and I don't like being obliged or given a guilt trip because I don't spoon feed or otherwise coach people coming in here in pursuit of ML3. I've made my boundaries quite clear on that years back way before this guy signed up. In the event he signed up here for DIRECT access to me (which appears like he did given he 'jumped' my signature of 'NO PMs') or any expectation that I had some obligation to coach him just because he signed up here, I'm NOT the one who contributed to that expectation.
Again, I am a VOLUNTEER here. Someone who receives no financial contributions for volunteering here (nor do I request any). So, in the event he made a financial contribution here with the expectation I provide him with all the info he needs to pursue ML3 (which you are obliging me via a guilt trip to provide), then maybe he should get a refund.
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"The conCLUEsion"
Actually made me cheer up a bit thank you for that.
You are right Kavan. That makes sense. I've never straight up mentioned in the emails the Modified lefort 3 but I think i've phrased it in ways where they can conclude it. You're right I should be getting into their office first. The problem with this is that most of these people are international and in another continent so it becomes hard to even be consulted. I assume Earl traveled a ton for this consultations. I will keep on with my search. I tried tracing people who learned from Sinn but not many that do ML3.
Something that also makes me wonder is how to phrase it. When I saw Earl's story and Varbrah. It becomes clear that their ML3 movilized only the malar region without the jaws, but the jaws were cut separate anyway. I will phrase it exactly like this. I will email as many that do L3 as I can. The other procedures I've seen that could work is a "lateral swing osteotomy" but there is no information of this anywhere except that one indian article. I continue looking for someone who does this. Discouraging that a doctor here where I'm from that wrote the MOST papers on the matter said he only could do implants.
Implants are truly terrible in my opinion, if you have the problem me and Earl had, negative vector orbit with BIG eyes. Then you look bad and idk if he had this but it's a constant pressure on the eyeball because it has no undereye support. Varbrah and Earl were lucky they got to Sinn before he retired. They seem to explain they even had less complications than a standard lefort 1. How is this even possible. Something that also happens with this kind of thing is that when you try to ask surgeons about complications or details they get kind of impatient sometimes. I will do anything on my power to not go to the ones the incels in looksmax forums recommend, for this is a reason I've Sherlock Holmed anything Varbrah or Earl have posted, both Sinn. I will continue searching.
We are not guilt tripping you. I am glad you helped me with the clue, but if you do not want to share information is fine but still saying "I do not spoon feed". We are just asking for help, wether that is "spoon feeding" or not is up to you, but forums are for sharing knowledge. I do agree with the "it's a serious thing so they should do their own research rather than non official source giving info" stuff. I did DM you because I've seen how actually reliable you are, and because you have YEARS in this forum talking about these procedures with mutliple people. I apologize for not noticing your "No pms" thing that was absolutely my bad for rushing it.
I want to make it clear Kavan that you are obviously an informed person, you do not have obligation like you said to help anyone, forums are for sharing information and having the "People" perspective. The assumption that I signed in just to dm you is not correct. I dmed the people I saw were very informed. You, GJ, Varbrah, and Earl. Only you and GJ responded.
I really appreciate your last response. Even if small it is a stepping stone, that helps. Specially since most of the Article Authors are either retired, or non reachable.
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"The conCLUEsion"
Actually made me cheer up a bit thank you for that.
You are right Kavan. That makes sense. I've never straight up mentioned in the emails the Modified lefort 3 but I think i've phrased it in ways where they can conclude it. You're right I should be getting into their office first. The problem with this is that most of these people are international and in another continent so it becomes hard to even be consulted. I assume Earl traveled a ton for this consultations. I will keep on with my search. I tried tracing people who learned from Sinn but not many that do ML3.
Something that also makes me wonder is how to phrase it. When I saw Earl's story and Varbrah. It becomes clear that their ML3 movilized only the malar region without the jaws, but the jaws were cut separate anyway. I will phrase it exactly like this. I will email as many that do L3 as I can. The other procedures I've seen that could work is a "lateral swing osteotomy" but there is no information of this anywhere except that one indian article. I continue looking for someone who does this. Discouraging that a doctor here where I'm from that wrote the MOST papers on the matter said he only could do implants.
Implants are truly terrible in my opinion, if you have the problem me and Earl had, negative vector orbit with BIG eyes. Then you look bad and idk if he had this but it's a constant pressure on the eyeball because it has no undereye support. Varbrah and Earl were lucky they got to Sinn before he retired. They seem to explain they even had less complications than a standard lefort 1. How is this even possible. Something that also happens with this kind of thing is that when you try to ask surgeons about complications or details they get kind of impatient sometimes. I will do anything on my power to not go to the ones the incels in looksmax forums recommend, for this is a reason I've Sherlock Holmed anything Varbrah or Earl have posted, both Sinn. I will continue searching.
We are not guilt tripping you. I am glad you helped me with the clue, but if you do not want to share information is fine but still saying "I do not spoon feed". We are just asking for help, wether that is "spoon feeding" or not is up to you, but forums are for sharing knowledge. I do agree with the "it's a serious thing so they should do their own research rather than non official source giving info" stuff. I did DM you because I've seen how actually reliable you are, and because you have YEARS in this forum talking about these procedures with mutliple people. I apologize for not noticing your "No pms" thing that was absolutely my bad for rushing it.
I want to make it clear Kavan that you are obviously an informed person, you do not have obligation like you said to help anyone, forums are for sharing information and having the "People" perspective. The assumption that I signed in just to dm you is not correct. I dmed the people I saw were very informed. You, GJ, Varbrah, and Earl. Only you and GJ responded.
I really appreciate your last response. Even if small it is a stepping stone, that helps. Specially since most of the Article Authors are either retired, or non reachable.
'WE'? I didn't claim that YOU were guilt tripping. But GJ clearly did.
Truth be told, I've never actually advised anyone (nor coached them) to pursue ML3. Instead, I've suggested those with 'negative vector' to look into customized orbital rim implants. But when someone is dead set against implants (which you are) and the known surgeon who does ML3 is retired, there's nothing else to suggest other than how Earl made his pursuit which involved many in person consultations to find anyone.
Of course, it would be great if Earl was around the board. But I think that when he was, people started obliging him to share his photos which was something he did not volunteer. Thank you for your understanding here and best of luck with the pursuit of more consults.
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It's a shame Earl is not around anymore. Varbrah does not seem to be around either. Doing his methodology is the only thing left. I am dead set against implants because of many things, but yeah negative vector orbit is bad, but terrible when you have big eyes like I do. I'm not a bad looking guy, but the worse thing is knowing I could've not only looked much better but also I could be rid of this weird feeling in my face. Negative vector isn't only having "bulging eyes" but also FEELING that your eyes have no support. Like the skin you can feel it hanging if that makes sense.
I hope anyone here who finds this thread can please comment whatever they can also find to help come closer to a conclusion for everyone here and that in the future people can have it much easier time finding the specialists. Meanwhile I will keep this thread updated with whatever I can find. Hopefully Varbrah or Earl can comment here when they, if ever. Get online again.
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It's a shame Earl is not around anymore. Varbrah does not seem to be around either. Doing his methodology is the only thing left. I am dead set against implants because of many things, but yeah negative vector orbit is bad, but terrible when you have big eyes like I do. I'm not a bad looking guy, but the worse thing is knowing I could've not only looked much better but also I could be rid of this weird feeling in my face. Negative vector isn't only having "bulging eyes" but also FEELING that your eyes have no support. Like the skin you can feel it hanging if that makes sense.
I hope anyone here who finds this thread can please comment whatever they can also find to help come closer to a conclusion for everyone here and that in the future people can have it much easier time finding the specialists. Meanwhile I will keep this thread updated with whatever I can find. Hopefully Varbrah or Earl can comment here when they, if ever. Get online again.
Negative vector is an aesthetic deficiency due to lack of projection of the orbital rim area. If a vertical line is dropped down from the outermost convexity of the EYEBALL (cornea) and if the orbital rim area is 1-5mm behind that line, it's considered negative vector. Orbital rim implants can provide about 5mm of projection. ML3 advancement, I think less. Negative vector is also referred to as 'prominent eye'. Negative vector or 'prominent eye' don't usually result in physical sensations or FEELINGS of distress but rather just aesthetic distress when looking in mirror.
However, if someone's eyes are really BULGING out a lot, it could be GRAVE'S disease, something that can involve 'feelings' to the eye area. The surgery for very big bulging eyes that could associated with Graves disease is orbital decompression; removal of bone from the ORBIT (eye socket). Surgery is done by an EYE SURGEON. So, consult with an eye doctor to rule out Graves. Advancing the orbital rim area to address an aesthetic deficiency of the orbital rim area in a MF3 differs from removing parts of the ORBIT to give more room for big bulging eyes. An eye doctor would be able to advise you further in the event you actually needed more space in the eye sockets to accommodate the globes (eyeballs).
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Yeah.
For me not only the infraorbital area but also the Zygoma, malar, cheekbone area is behind. My eye has almost no support on the undereye area.
It's quite terrible. I just spoke with the Dr I went with in person consultation again by message and he says the only option he offers is implants. It causes me distress not only by mirror but also by feeling it. I feel it. When I smile for example, I feel how instead of there being something to hold the skin after I stop is not there. I only feel skin rising up and down and by consequence I have a weird smile where only skin and muscle moves into where cheeks are supposed to be. My jaws are normal it's only that third part that is inward or not grown properly.
I just contacted Alfil. Apparently he doesn't do ml3. I will keep on looking. I just hope Dr Sinn was not the LAST of his kind willing to do this kind of procedure. Obwegeser just stopped replying a while ago altogether.
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...if someone's eyes are really BULGING out a lot, it could be GRAVE'S disease, ... consult with an eye doctor to rule out Graves....
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My point is that this forum is here to help people. If the answer is something like, "you didn't read enough academic journals or text books to warrant help" it's completely missing the point. There are people with life alternating, negative deformities who are desperate and want help. It frankly borders on sociopathy to say something to the effect of, "I know the answer, but I'm not telling you."
You're better off completely ignoring a thread rather than posting s**t like that. Otherwise, it's conflicting in that you don't want to spend energy helping someone, but you do want to spend energy berating them. Again, this is sociopathic and domineering.
If you don't want to volunteer information you know, then don't volunteer, period. But to sign up to volunteer and then hold back information while dangling carrots in front of users is just messed up.
Note: I do agree if someone sets clear boundaries like "No PMs" and then someone sends a PM, they should be berated. But that's different than what goes on in some of these threads where you just get the user walking on egg shells as you domineer them.
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I consulted first with optometrist. Oculist (how we call them in spanis)
No graves disease. Even he could tell I just have big eyes and no projection of malar region. He called them cheekbones but I know what he meant.
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My point is that this forum is here to help people. If the answer is something like, "you didn't read enough academic journals or text books to warrant help" it's completely missing the point. There are people with life alternating, negative deformities who are desperate and want help. It frankly borders on sociopathy to say something to the effect of, "I know the answer, but I'm not telling you."
You're better off completely ignoring a thread rather than posting s**t like that. Otherwise, it's conflicting in that you don't want to spend energy helping someone, but you do want to spend energy berating them. Again, this is sociopathic and domineering.
If you don't want to volunteer information you know, then don't volunteer, period. But to sign up to volunteer and then hold back information while dangling carrots in front of users is just messed up.
Note: I do agree if someone sets clear boundaries like "No PMs" and then someone sends a PM, they should be berated. But that's different than what goes on in some of these threads where you just get the user walking on egg shells as you domineer them.
My point is that I don't volunteer for you to put a guilt trip on me in circumstances where I'm not volunteering to coach, coddle, advise or otherwise 'spoonfeed', especially in highly esoteric procedures like ML3 where people sign up for your board BECAUSE EARL HAD THIS, but isn't here and I'm 'the one who might (or might not) know all about this'. I've NEVER claimed I'm conversant in ML3s.
It is a FACT that Earl had the 'smarts' and educational background enough to do the research he did, which took YEARS which was needed to pursue such a procedure. That is a very salient aspect of such a pursuit. I never said: 'You didn't read enough academic journals or text books to warrant help' . Not my problem if you misconstrue my words. I pointed out the FACT Earl was able to do that. It's also true that IF I wanted the procedure for myself (which I'm not pursuing), I would be able to digest all the material, do the research as did Earl. But that doesn't OBLIGE me to be a PROXY for Earl. Nor does it warrant any guilt trips from you.
The issue here as far as I'm concerned is that when people sign up for your board (and provide a financial contribution to do so) and sign up to pursue what Earl had, there should be no expectation that 'because I could or would' know more than others on here that I'm obliged to advise them on this. Clearly, you furthered that expectation and went about shaming me for not catering to it and it is exactly THAT type of thing I rather not YOU volunteer my help for when I've made clear I'm NOT volunteering to coach or advise on ML3s. So, what ever expectations new sign ups might have that I 'should' be able to help with this should NOT part of any impression they might have with what ever financial contribution they provide for signing up here.
I would suggest you make clear to prospective members that what ever financial contributions they provide is for internet upkeep expenses only and does not involve specialized access, advice, coaching..etc from any one particular member. That would be preferable to your blatantly DISRESPECTING my choice NOT to cater to ML3 sign ups and TOTALLY IGNORING that I gave him some help. BECAUSE you put a guilt trip on me this way and continued to do so DESPITE my offering him some help, I'm not inclined to say anything more to him at all.
So, not only did you try to shame and put a guilt trip on me for NOT volunteering to advise, coach etc. But you CONTINUED to do so AFTER I did give him some helpful advice. Put a guilt trip on me for not volunteering what I don't choose to volunteer and go on to SHAME me after I DO volunteer some advice and call me 'sociopathic' in the process and you think YOUR statements will motivate me to give this member any further advice? On the contrary. You've done the OPPOSITE.
So, shame and guilt trip as much as you want. In that way, it should help 'Burnt Soul' understand WHY I won't be volunteering any more commentary to him given the environment that anything I say, don't say or isn't said in a way that YOU don't like it to be said will be held against me.
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My point is that I don't volunteer for you to put a guilt trip on me in circumstances where I'm not volunteering to coach, coddle, advise or otherwise 'spoonfeed', especially in highly esoteric procedures like ML3 where people sign up for your board BECAUSE EARL HAD THIS, but isn't here and I'm 'the one who might (or might not) know all about this'. I've NEVER claimed I'm conversant in ML3s.
It is a FACT that Earl had the 'smarts' and educational background enough to do the research he did, which took YEARS which was needed to pursue such a procedure. That is a very salient aspect of such a pursuit. I never said: 'You didn't read enough academic journals or text books to warrant help' . Not my problem if you misconstrue my words. I pointed out the FACT Earl was able to do that. It's also true that IF I wanted the procedure for myself (which I'm not pursuing), I would be able to digest all the material, do the research as did Earl. But that doesn't OBLIGE me to be a PROXY for Earl. Nor does it warrant any guilt trips from you.
The issue here as far as I'm concerned is that when people sign up for your board (and provide a financial contribution to do so) and sign up to pursue what Earl had, there should be no expectation that 'because I could or would' know more than others on here that I'm obliged to advise them on this. Clearly, you furthered that expectation and went about shaming me for not catering to it and it is exactly THAT type of thing I rather not YOU volunteer my help for when I've made clear I'm NOT volunteering to coach or advise on ML3s. So, what ever expectations new sign ups might have that I 'should' be able to help with this should NOT part of any impression they might have with what ever financial contribution they provide for signing up here.
I would suggest you make clear to prospective members that what ever financial contributions they provide is for internet upkeep expenses only and does not involve specialized access, advice, coaching..etc from any one particular member. That would be preferable to your blatantly DISRESPECTING my choice NOT to cater to ML3 sign ups and TOTALLY IGNORING that I gave him some help. BECAUSE you put a guilt trip on me this way and continued to do so DESPITE my offering him some help, I'm not inclined to say anything more to him at all.
So, not only did you try to shame and put a guilt trip on me for NOT volunteering to advise, coach etc. But you CONTINUED to do so AFTER I did give him some helpful advice. Put a guilt trip on me for not volunteering what I don't choose to volunteer and go on to SHAME me after I DO volunteer some advice and call me 'sociopathic' in the process and you think YOUR statements will motivate me to give this member any further advice? On the contrary. You've done the OPPOSITE.
So, shame and guilt trip as much as you want. In that way, it should help 'Burnt Soul' understand WHY I won't be volunteering any more commentary to him given the environment that anything I say, don't say or isn't said in a way that YOU don't like it to be said will be held against me.
Yeah, none of that happened. I've never mentioned you to anyone who signs up. Donations go towards hosting, which is $450 every 3 years.
The bottom line is you think you're brilliant, and you think others should be equally brilliant. Not everyone can digest what you want them to digest. They might not have the savviness to find articles; they might not have the intelligence to digest them; they might just not want to spend their time that way, which is why they signed up for an advice forum (i.e. to ask advice). You have a hard-on for Earl because he did some research. Who cares? He probably had OCD and other disorders that lead him to do a ton of research. Not everyone is going to do that, nor should they be expected to do that.
The goal of this forum is to HELP people who have serious problems. If someone is considering a LF3, they probably have a serious problem. Instead of getting help, they get demeaned and domineered. It's truly bizarre.
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OP, to your actual question, and my attempt to help. I went through my old emails with Earl.
Since I told him I wouldn't share them publicly, I won't, but I'll summarize the gist of it as I don't think he'd care about summarizing them.
He did get the LF3, but it was a modified LF3, and it didn't make him an "Adonis", just Earl without orbital rim deficiency. With things more forward, any asymmetry was possibly exaggerated. He wound up getting a modified LF3 because the surgeon thought the cuts he wanted (the actual LF3) would produce a step off in the malar region (this was my concern, as noted in the original post). Cut was stopped before the orbital nerve to eliminate the risk of blindness and also another risk of a step off in that area. Step offs can be "sanded down", but surgeons prefer not to do that (I'm not sure why...must be inexact...I assume they can graft, too, but again, that's usually inexact).
That's all I can really say about it. My recommendation would be: go on a lot of consults and take it slowly, and don't fall for promises or ask the surgeon leading questions. Just ask a question, be quiet, and let him answer. If possible, ask for a referral to someone who actually had the LF3, etc. Basic stuff, but it's important to do a consult the right way. Oh, and read journal articles if you can. ;)
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Yeah, none of that happened. I've never mentioned you to anyone who signs up. Donations go towards hosting, which is $450 every 3 years.
The bottom line is you think you're brilliant, and you think others should be equally brilliant. Not everyone can digest what you want them to digest. They might not have the savviness to find articles; they might not have the intelligence to digest them; they might just not want to spend their time that way, which is why they signed up for an advice forum (i.e. to ask advice). You have a hard-on for Earl because he did some research. Who cares? He probably had OCD and other disorders that lead him to do a ton of research. Not everyone is going to do that, nor should they be expected to do that.
The goal of this forum is to HELP people who have serious problems. If someone is considering a LF3, they probably have a serious problem. Instead of getting help, they get demeaned and domineered. It's truly bizarre.
Well, you should not be expecting me to do their research for them. As for my 'thinking I'm brilliant', I'm not alone in that. MIT and Harvard thought so too. Now you are insulting Earl for having OCD and other 'problems' that cause someone to do research and study. Ya right, not everyone is going to do that or be expected to do that. So, I guess that leaves people who have 'OCD' and other 'psyche problems' as the very few who find a doctor to do ML3.
We shall leave it as NOTHING I can say is going to be helpful to this person or to your liking and there is NOTHING I can say/do that will make Sinn come out of retirement or somehow 'create' other doctors that are looking for patients who want ML3S, I DON'T CLAIM to be conversant in ML3s and there is NOTHING I can do about Earl (for what ever his reasons) not being here to keep up with giving info to people who come here in pursuit of what he had. NOR would I think to hold him 'responsible' for a 'bad outcome' that someone else might have if they pursued ML3 without Earl's help. I'm not a PROXY for Earl and you should not be shaming me here for pointing out I admire his 'smarts' for being able to do this with NO HELP from this board. If it's so important to you that members coming here seeking info on ML3 get it than that begs the question of what efforts have YOU made to encourage Earl to (or the other person) to come back to this board when you have sign ups coming here in pursuit of ML3s???? I guess you've answered what effort you made to encourage him to come back to help with ML3 questions by Insulting/shaming him here too for having 'OCD' or 'psyche problems'.
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Kavan.
I am adressing this reply to you.
GJ was clearly calling you out for how you phrased and put a comment on this forum. You DID come across as "I only help people who I find worthy" attitude. Specially since you just helped that other woman in that other forum. This is something I consider serious, I can assure you it is no joke to me. You are in NO obligation to help anyone. GJ is NOT guilt tripping you on that. He is saying that you should not even comment in the matter if you don't plan or know how to help instead of just commenting saying "I won't spoon feed you information" When we just want help of any sort. I appreciate the help a ton you gave me. Wether Harvard or institutations think you are brilliant I don't know, if that is true then it's deserved from what I've seen before from you here at least in knowledge wise, but truth be told you do come off as an asshole and switching narratives in some forums specially in this one. You tried switching the blame on GJ for you not commenting here or helping me any further, that is just your choice. Not GJ's fault or anyone else's.
What else can a forum be for but ask, give or learn information. Nothing. Also phrasing "nothing I can say/do will make Sinn come out of retirement" That is not the concern GJ was talking about. You're probably not a dumb guy or an asshole, but it is a bit sociopathic you also had to clarify the Harvard part JUST IN CASE.
Also the procedure IS the procedure. I do not care for EARL. Only the procedure. Apparently after it he still wanted more and his history seems there are multilpe things he wanted to adress, which could signal surgery addiction. I am not interested in that. Varbrah is someone who also got it. I'm also looking for forums of what he said.
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GJ
Thank you for that reply. Yes. I will do my best. Step-off I still can't fully imagine it properly but it makes sense. I imagine this was the cut Earl got and is talking about. This is the only way I can imagine the step off.
I will investigat even further. I've read a ton of articles that i've rented that cost plenty money lol. Truth be told most of them seem to be study cases and not something they do to non syndromic patients but I will keep on lookout. I will start by asking the people Sinn trained. I will also not ask leading questions like you said which might scare them off. This is something serious and I will do my upmost and best to get it solved. I will follow the advice and keep it in mind GJ. Thank you. If there is something that comes up please comment here for me and people that will visit this again.
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OP, to your actual question, and my attempt to help. I went through my old emails with Earl.
Since I told him I wouldn't share them publicly, I won't, but I'll summarize the gist of it as I don't think he'd care about summarizing them.
He did get the LF3, but it was a modified LF3, and it didn't make him an "Adonis", just Earl without orbital rim deficiency. With things more forward, any asymmetry was possibly exaggerated. He wound up getting a modified LF3 because the surgeon thought the cuts he wanted (the actual LF3) would produce a step off in the malar region (this was my concern, as noted in the original post). Cut was stopped before the orbital nerve to eliminate the risk of blindness and also another risk of a step off in that area. Step offs can be "sanded down", but surgeons prefer not to do that (I'm not sure why...must be inexact...I assume they can graft, too, but again, that's usually inexact).
That's all I can really say about it. My recommendation would be: go on a lot of consults and take it slowly, and don't fall for promises or ask the surgeon leading questions. Just ask a question, be quiet, and let him answer. If possible, ask for a referral to someone who actually had the LF3, etc. Basic stuff, but it's important to do a consult the right way. Oh, and read journal articles if you can. ;)
Well, it pans out that you had more info as to what he had via private e-mails. I had no private correspondence with him as to the ML3. Yet, I'm the one 'withholding' info that I never had concerning what he got (other than the info he openly shared on board). The suggestion to go on lots of consults is similar to my advice also as is to read more journal articles if he can.
I agree that's basically all that can be said about it.
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I know why Earl left. We talked via email a lot, and he told me why. That's why I haven't asked him to come back, nor is he ever coming back to any forums. I didn't withhold anything and told the OP I would get to Earl's emails and read through then when I had time, which was today.
Regarding your brilliance, I'm only impressed more by your humility.
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Yeah similar advice Kavan.
Yeah that's what you told me in PMs i'm surprised you remember. Thank you for that. GJ.
The step off you talk about is the one in the picture I posted where the "bone graft" arrow appears I imagine.
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I'm surprised you remember.
My lady jokes constantly I have the memory of an elephant...
It might take me an eternity, but I get back to things.
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Kavan.
I am adressing this reply to you.
GJ was clearly calling you out for how you phrased and put a comment on this forum. You DID come across as "I only help people who I find worthy" attitude. Specially since you just helped that other woman in that other forum. This is something I consider serious, I can assure you it is no joke to me. You are in NO obligation to help anyone. GJ is NOT guilt tripping you on that. He is saying that you should not even comment in the matter if you don't plan or know how to help instead of just commenting saying "I won't spoon feed you information" When we just want help of any sort. I appreciate the help a ton you gave me. Wether Harvard or institutations think you are brilliant I don't know, if that is true then it's deserved from what I've seen before from you here at least in knowledge wise, but truth be told you do come off as an asshole and switching narratives in some forums specially in this one. You tried switching the blame on GJ for you not commenting here or helping me any further, that is just your choice. Not GJ's fault or anyone else's.
What else can a forum be for but ask, give or learn information. Nothing. Also phrasing "nothing I can say/do will make Sinn come out of retirement" That is not the concern GJ was talking about. You're probably not a dumb guy or an asshole, but it is a bit sociopathic you also had to clarify the Harvard part JUST IN CASE.
Also the procedure IS the procedure. I do not care for EARL. Only the procedure. Apparently after it he still wanted more and his history seems there are multilpe things he wanted to adress, which could signal surgery addiction. I am not interested in that. Varbrah is someone who also got it. I'm also looking for forums of what he said.
As to saying I would not 'spoon feed' info on ML3, I said that way before you came along. So, my prior open statement of that should not have been looked at as in any type of 'invitation' that I was receptive to advising on ML3.
I told you from the get go in this string: 'It is an extremely esoteric operation. The only suggestion I can offer is to look in the bibliography in articles of cases you've come across in hopes to find a name cited of a doctor possibility.'
As time went on, it seemed like I was being importuned to provide info that would lead you to getting what you wanted when there was really nothing I could say or do to make that come true for you and then came the guilt trip and shaming which you deny GJ did in your behalf.
I understand that you want what you want and have limited your options to only ML3 despite orbital rim/midface implants that could address your problem and also you have a better rapport with GJ than with the way I say things.
I recognize that 'back and forth' communication with me is not working out. No need to pursue it further and I have no issue with GJ giving you all the info you need as to ML3.
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I know why Earl left. We talked via email a lot, and he told me why. That's why I haven't asked him to come back, nor is he ever coming back to any forums. I didn't withhold anything and told the OP I would get to Earl's emails and read through then when I had time, which was today.
Regarding your brilliance, I'm only impressed more by your humility.
I didn't say you withheld info. I said you attributed ME with withholding it (in a circumstance when I had no private correspondence with Earl as did you).
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Hahaha that makes sense GJ.
Thank you as usual. Is the step off you mentioned the one in the picture I posted?
Also the image is the only one that I could find that shows a modified lefort 3 but when tracing it's origin it goes into looksmax incel forums. That is a bit worrying.
I keep looking. Obwegeser seems like the perfect person for this. It's a shame he doesn't seem to want to answer anymore. Most people when they hear ML3 think advancing everything from eye socket down. When in reality you can just advance malar area and not the jaws like Varbrah had.
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Is the step off you mentioned the one in the picture I posted?
That's where, in my mind's eye, I pictured a step off being a risk. Definitely ask about shaving down the bone and/or grafting to soften that. I'd imagine the eye sockets appear more depressed after the procedure, too, since you're advancing everything around it, and any asymmetry will be exaggerated as you move things forward.
I know we all think this is an esoteric and risky procedure. I still think that, fwiw, but after reading Earl's emails, Sinn didn't feel that way. I don't know if that's because Sinn's confidence in his ability, his experience, etc, but that was his feeling about it. In rereading the emails, that stood out.
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He's Varbrah's discussion of it: https://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,8542.msg79109.html#msg79109
I reached out to him (maybe he's more likely to respond to an admin) and linked this thread. He was last active in January, so he might be around still.
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Thank you for the link GJ. Yeah I read that one some weeks/days ago in my research.
What surprised me a TON is how both Earl and him refere to it as "milder than DJS" WHAT? Also this thread was how I learned it was two separate surgeries. I thought they were both done at the same time in one go but apparently not. What absolutely CONFUSES me a ton is that they keep refering it as recovery being "milder than Djs" and basically that it was not a big deal recovery wise. The cuts seem to be two, infraorbital area and lefort 1 area, apparently done at different times. This is insane to me I'd think it all would be on the same go. Today I'm contacting Sinn's team to see if he thought this to someone ever. I will be careful how I talk about it but I must try.
Thank you for messaging him and linking the thread to him. I tried messaging him some days/weeks ago but he did not answer yet. Let's hope there is more luck this time around.
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What surprised me a TON is how both Earl and him refere to it as "milder than DJS" WHAT?
It's possible it requires less cutting of soft tissue, blood vessels, etc. That's going to determine swelling for the most part. I think the mouth has the most of any area of the body (I think I read this?), and DJS is more in that area, so maybe with the cuts higher up those decrease a bit. Just speculation, but that would be my guess.
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That makes sense but remember it's a 2 part operation that also requires lefort 1 to not advance the jaw is what I understood. Varbrah was right when he mentioned Modified lefort 3 isn't exactly the right name for it I guess, but now a days there isn't much distinction.
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Alright I got new information. Apparently Sinn called the procedure: "zygomatic bone advancement" he developed it in conjunction with some surgeon in Australia. I think he might be the only one that does it in the US. The surgeon from Australia he developed it with, if I had to guess would be Heggie since he also has written and made papers on it.