jawsurgeryforums.com
Surgeon Information => Surgeon Reviews and Leads => Topic started by: Rico on October 10, 2014, 05:55:31 AM
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I have to choose between Mommaerts and Zarrinbal
I have something interesting - I think - in my mind.
Let me explain
First of all Mommaerts has 3x more surgeries than other surgeons in Europe
so.... automatically he will have more unsuccessful performed surgery. No one surgeon is a god. Bad outcomes happen
Why You / We compare quantities instead of percentages ? I mean % of bad vs % of good outcomes
I do not protect Mommaerts. I'm anxious about my choice and do not know what to think
also its possible, that some surgeons may have fake accounts on the forums and make sabotages or something like that - write strange opinions about their competitors. Its rather not the point, but who knows, everything is possible
So how to compare Mommaerts to other max-fac surgeons if he performs much more surgeries per year?
Perhaps others like Zarrinbal just has less bad results on the account because he has less patients
also Why is so little opinions about those surgeons ? Mayby on the forum there are only a few people which had no luck. Sh*t happens, and most of the others are happy
The mystery is: How is it possible, that so popular and very skilled surgeon cant be better ? and how he became so popular ? For me it's stragne. Don't know what to think/ I'm confused
What do You think ? Please write your comments
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I can't comment about the specific surgeons, not from personal experience. But I don't think the patients that are dissatisfied with MM are fake accounts, at least not here on these forums. They contribute in a lot of other ways besides lamenting about their surgery with Mommaerts.
The other thing is, some surgeons have much more of an online presence than others. Obviously a surgeon is going to display his best results, and not advertise his poor ones. Being better, might not be all about raw skill, but also having good communication with the patient, having a well thought out plan, and sticking with that plan.
It's a very personal decision, and I think you should go with whoever you are most comfortable with.
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that was not the point of my post. Of course for 99% no fake accounts. It was a little joke, just to ruminate :)
however still comparison here based on quantities , but not percentage - this is not good
The point of my post was about wrong comparisons
Here are some people who tell me that I will be crazy if I choose Mommaerts
everyting based only on 6-7 opinions here.. It is too few....
How to get to those which are happy after surgery ?
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that was not the point of my post. Of course for 99% no fake accounts. It was a little joke, just to ruminate :)
however still comparison here based on quantities , but not percentage - this is not good
The point of my post was about wrong comparisons
Here are some people who tell me that I will be crazy if I choose Mommaerts
everyting based only on 6-7 opinions here.. It is too few....
How to get to those which are happy after surgery ?
It depends on how you want to look at it.
There is nothing you can do to increase the sample size available to you when choosing a maxillofacial surgeon. There will never be hundreds of reviews like some famous hollywood plastic surgeons who know how to get their heads on TV. This means you may only ever have 10 solid reviews per surgeon to go by.
Now from a 'quantity' perspective it's not many. However if of those ten eight had a poor result then I think it would be cause for alarm. Or 80% of all available reviews being negative.
There are other considerations such as the likelihood that those with negative outcomes are more likely to remain active on a forum and vent their frustration compared with someone who's content with their result.
Conversely, people on this forum are demanding a very high standard of their surgeons. It's why they haven't simply gone to a local maxfac and instead spent timing researching what they feel is the best surgical plan and the best surgeon. They're far, far more informed than the average patient. Most people have no idea what a good or bad bite is, not a clue about whether or not the surgical plan is good, and likely a very modest appreciation for facial aesthetics. You see it with the unhappy patients who do find their way to this forum. They can generally only say that something seems off about their face, or their occlusion is still not good. Things a layman would notice. Yet when one looks closer at these people it's possible to see plethora of other issues they've been completely oblivious too.
If 100 of these people professed to be happy with their result would it really mean much?
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for me the problem is to pinopoint whether Mommaerts is realy bad surgeon . If he is, so why so little is about this
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It's natural that there will be a bit of selection bias when it comes to what kind of people that post on forums like this one, but at the same time it is pretty strange that there doesn't seem to be any happy Mommaerts patients out there given how popular he is (or used to be). I know of one guy on lookyourbestuk.com who had jaw angle augmentation and was happy with the result, but other than that it has been nothing but unhappy patients that have posted on this and other forums. Even the people who only had a consultation with Mommaerts have started to question if he's a competent surgeon since the surgery plans he presented have ranged from being questionable at best to having mistakes even a rookie surgeon wouldn't make. There are a few members here who question if surgeons like Arnett and Gunson really deserve their reputation, but at least those two have numerous happy patients who have posted about their experience with them and there aren't nowhere near as many bad reviews of them as there are of Mommaerts.
I don't think there are any surgeons out there who don't have any patients who are unhappy with their result to some degree, but at the same time there has to be a limit to how badly a surgeon can botch a surgery before his competence must be questioned. Mommaerts has botched the surgeries of two people on this forum so badly that other surgeons have said that they've never seen anything like it before. One surgeon even suggested that there was merit for a malpractice lawsuit and said that he has seen several patients as of late who have had failed surgeries with Mommaerts. I don't care how good the surgeon's best results are if he's capable of mistreating his patients like that (even if it doesn't happen very often).
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I was not going to reply to this thread because the OP sent me more than 20 PMs that I patiently answered, trying to help as much as I can in an unbiased way, suggesting more than anything that he consults at least 2 other surgeons before he commits to the surgery. I even told him how to contact a person who had the exact surgery with Mommaerts he is planning to have, and who is beyond devastated with terrible asymmetries and the prospects of difficult revision for which he can't find the right surgeon. I told him the person is likely to share photos with him if he asked nicely.
To no avail.
But for anyone else reading, I agree with GS. It's extremely hard to find any feedback on your prospective surgeon in this field, let alone 6 negative reviews. I think negative reviews are like cockroaches -you see one, assume there are 100 unhappy patients you don't see for each one review you do see.
Are you aware of any other surgeon in this field who has 6, perhaps more, negative reviews? Anyone at all on the planet?
To illustrate my point: even for surgeons like Triaca, who operate a lot on adults with cosmetic concerns, I can't find reviews. I even tried German language forums - there is so little, if anything. And I'm talking about one of the most widely known surgeons in the world in this field. So, getting on my point, it is extremely hard to find reviews and if you do find any, be grateful, evaluate them critically but be aware that they are precious if you can establish there are real people behind the reviews. There are 7 reviews I know of about Mommaerts, 6 of which are negative. 1 is positive, and that is someone who did not have any bone work at all. No jaw surgery, no other osteotomies. How wrong can you go in applying HA to the jaw angles? Can my local dental surgeon do it? Yes, he could, if he worked with HA. No surgical planning, no special skills needed. By the way, he gets this wrong as well (there is a guy on MissJ forums trying to have his removed due to asymmetry).
I asked the OP in a PM - have you found any Mommaerts patients to contact? Do you know anyone at all who is happy? He said no, but he also said that he is not concerned about 6 negative reviews: because Mommaerts operates so much, he must have unhappy patients. He said 6 doesn't mean anything. What a logic. So, I don't know of anyone happy, I know of 6 unhappy but I'm not concerned. Especially when the unhappy patients are unhappy because other surgeons have subsequently said they had been butchered, not because they imagine things.
The OP also told me that he was not like me, or some other people on this board, in the sense that he had a nice face to begin with. I don't know where the OP has seen me to imagine that I was some ugly creature who was hoping Mommaerts to transform him into a hunk, and alas... poor Mommaerts, failing to do that, I was left unhappy and now I'm speaking against him. He said this despite of having the opportunity to read my posts on this forum about subsequent consults I had and the failure on many levels, including the necessity of three subsequent surgeries.
So, at that point, I decided to keep a distance. Everyone is responsible for making their own decision. I do think some people find my posts helpful, and if I could save someone from the emotional and physical pain I have endured, I'm happy to have taken 10 minutes of my time to type this.
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falco, for the god sake ;) You got it completely wrong and You are oversensitive but I forgive ;)
I registered your opinion. I'm just curious of what others think.
Think falco, think, why am I trying to get more info of MM, because I do not feel safe.
I have consultation with Dr Zarrenbal on Friday. He is a little cheaper than Mommaerts and his clinic is situated 700kms closer from me [Warsaw] than Mommaerts
sooo there are some initial pluses about him in my perspective. I will see.
However Could you give me a mail [first ask him for permission] of that person who had zygomatic osteotomy ?
about Triaca: Switzerland.. probably much more expensive surgeries ? I can spend only 8k Euros
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falco, for the god sake ;) You got it completely wrong and You are oversensitive but I forgive ;)
I registered your opinion. I'm just curious of what others think.
Think falco, think, why am I trying to get more info of MM, because I do not feel safe.
I have consultation with Dr Zarrenbal on Friday. He is a little cheaper than Mommaerts and his clinic is situated 700kms closer from me [Warsaw] than Mommaerts
sooo there are some initial pluses about him in my perspective. I will see.
However Could you give me a mail [first ask him for permission] of that person who had zygomatic osteotomy ?
about Triaca: Switzerland.. probably much more expensive surgeries ? I can spend only 8k Euros
Can you find out where they are making the cuts please? Both for Zarrinbal and Mommaerts? I've very curious to know how they're doing it these days.
I don't know the price of a malar osteotomy with Triaca unfortunately. You should e-mail and ask. I only have positive things to say about him and his work.
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The OP also told me that he was not like me, or some other people on this board, in the sense that he had a nice face to begin with. I don't know where the OP has seen me to imagine that I was some ugly creature who was hoping Mommaerts to transform him into a hunk, and alas... poor Mommaerts, failing to do that, I was left unhappy and now I'm speaking against him. He said this despite of having the opportunity to read my posts on this forum about subsequent consults I had and the failure on many levels, including the necessity of three subsequent surgeries.
Oh lol f**king lol.
I was considered very attractive pre-Mommaerts, so much so that on seeing old pics of me my new surgeon decided to put his balls on the line and take on my case and revise it fully - it's worth the risk, apparently. What should have been a very simple case with only small movements was ridiculously over complicated with grotesquely large movements made and even a jaw narrowing procedure thrown in for good measure that neither me or my orthodontist was aware of.
I wasn't deformed before but I sure as hell am now.
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Can you find out where they are making the cuts please? Both for Zarrinbal and Mommaerts? I've very curious to know how they're doing it these days.
I don't know the price of a malar osteotomy with Triaca unfortunately. You should e-mail and ask. I only have positive things to say about him and his work.
cuts ? I do not know what are you asking about ? You are asking where do they perform surgery ?
Zarrinbal also not good ?
I think I should looking for max-fac surgeon within max 1000kms of the place where I live
So genereally it will be Germany and Czech Republic
Give me the names of the best surgeons from these countries, please
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I mentioned on the other forum that I suspect MM is allowing interns to perform the surgeries on his patients as of late. Few hiccups can be excusable, but botched cases from a surgeons who's got extensive experience seems rather strange, so it's possible that it was one of his interns who was doing the work.
I don't think that MM is bad in the technical sense, it's just that with the interns situation and his assembly-line approach, I would steer clear from him. I prefer a surgeon who takes his time planning the surgery beforehand and doesn't leave a rookie slice open your face after they knock you out.
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I mentioned on the other forum that I suspect MM is allowing interns to perform the surgeries on his patients as of late. Few hiccups can be excusable, but botched cases from a surgeons who's got extensive experience seems rather strange, so it's possible that it was one of his interns who was doing the work.
I don't think that MM is bad in the technical sense, it's just that with the interns situation and his assembly-line approach, I would steer clear from him. I prefer a surgeon who takes his time planning the surgery beforehand and doesn't leave a rookie slice open your face after they knock you out.
The interns took care of pretty much everything while I was there but I would be surprised if they performed the actual surgery as well. I saw Mommaerts in the operating room immediately after waking up so I know for sure that he was there during the surgery at least. One of the interns took some measurements of my face in a very rushed manner during the pre-op consultation and I asked Mommaerts afterward if there was any chance that she could've gotten it wrong, but he refused that possibility even though he didn't take the measurements himself. Still, it's definitely Mommaerts himself who comes up with the surgery plan so it doesn't really matter how well the surgery is executed if the surgery plan itself is never going to work.
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I don't know who came up with the "interns" idea, but that is plain wrong. First of all, he operates on private basis within the hospital, in what he called "European Face Centre" or something like that. He is allowed to have advertisements showing face lifts etc on a big screen in the waiting room precisely for this reason - he operates on commercial basis within that centre. I don't know if he does other public work within the hospital with domestic patients and I don't care.
In the centre itself, there are no interns. The people GS refers to are people he employs and form part of his team - there is Dr Buttner (if I remember his name correctly), who is a maxillo-facial surgeon - fully accredited and probably older than Zarrinbal, for example. So, most definitely not an intern. There is another female doctor whose name I can't remember, and she's an orthodontist. Again, not an intern. And there are the nurses.
In the operating room, I can hardly imagine interns operating on foreign patients who paid privately for the surgery in the commercial wing of the hospital. Imagine the legal liability of such practice. If there are interns in the hospital and they operate with him, I imagine they operate on domestic patients who do not pay any fee for the surgery (just like in UK and most other European countries, they are free of charge for them).
So, no. Another silly idea floating around in his defense being repeated by people who have never met him or had anything to do with him.
Belgium is a real country with real laws. The hospital has its team of lawyers and risk management strategies. It's beyond belief such practice where "interns" would operate on full-fee paying foreign patients who are treated in the commercial wing of the hospital that has its own name.
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Intern may not be the right word, but it's pretty common for surgeons to receive training by working alongside an experienced surgeon even if they've already finished their official education.
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Intern may not be the right word, but it's pretty common for surgeons to receive training by working alongside an experienced surgeon even if they've already finished their official education.
Indeed, especially in a teaching hospital.
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GS: Yes, I get your point, but we have to be precise with the language. Since it's a university hospital where the centre is located, people may get the wrong idea that these are some 3rd year med students operating around.
And I share your experience - if Buttner did yours and my plan, and if Mommaerts had such good "technical" abilities (as suggested above), why didn't he pick up the fact that in your case the plan will not deliver and in my case will be an absolute irrefutable failure. He had the chance to revise it when he discussed it with me. Also, I share your experience of seeing his disagreeable face upon waking up (in severe pain, by the way).
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For starters, I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression that I'm defending MM. I was one of the very first and few members who expressed doubts towards his practice, long before the negative reviews came pouring as of late.
I also do not want you to get the impression that I'm somehow not taking your past problems with MM seriously, as I can only imagine how infuriating it would be to not only lose money, but also have your facial appearance at stake.
I was just speculating earlier that he employs interns or residents or call them whatever you want because it was very strange that the streak of complaints all came out in the same time frame. Not to mention that he has very comprehensive experience in the field of maxillofacial surgery. Isn't that why you chose him in the first place? So it was perplexing that he would f**k up so badly like something as simple as a BSSO given how much experience he has in the said procedure. One of MM's past unhappy patients mentioned on the missj forum after I mentioned that interns that MM does in fact have residents who are with him in the operation room. Doesn't say if they operate on the patients, but it was mentioned in his surgical report.
I also think that you implying that I'm silly was uncalled for and immature.
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The thing is though that his surgical plans are doomed to fail from the start, that's where the problems lie. In my opinion, he's relying solely on computers to come up with the plans without taking the time to go over them and use his experience and judgement to tweak them.
I requested my ceph tracing from one of his flunkies a couple of weeks post op, it was literally just a computer printout with none of the usual scribbled numbers and notes. I'd literally never seen one like it before.
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The thing is though that his surgical plans are doomed to fail from the start, that's where the problems lie. In my opinion, he's relying solely on computers to come up with the plans without taking the time to go over them and use his experience and judgement to tweak them.
I requested my ceph tracing from one of his flunkies a couple of weeks post op, it was literally just a computer printout with none of the usual scribbled numbers and notes. I'd literally never seen one like it before.
Exactly what do you mean he relies on computers? Does he just morph the faces using photoshop, or is it some sort of a software that's targeted for maxillofacial work?
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Exactly what do you mean he relies on computers? Does he just morph the faces using photoshop, or is it some sort of a software that's targeted for maxillofacial work?
The facial measurements are fed into a computer and a plan is churned out. From what I can gather speaking to other surgeons this is standard practice but should be used as a guide only.
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The facial measurements are fed into a computer and a plan is churned out. From what I can gather speaking to other surgeons this is standard practice but should be used as a guide only.
So you think that MM's problem has to do more with the planning rather than the intra-operative work, right?
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So you think that MM's problem has to do more with the planning rather than the intra-operative work, right?
Mainly yes, although his work itself is sloppy, according to other surgeons.
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I don't know who came up with the "interns" idea, but that is plain wrong. First of all, he operates on private basis within the hospital, in what he called "European Face Centre" or something like that. He is allowed to have advertisements showing face lifts etc on a big screen in the waiting room precisely for this reason - he operates on commercial basis within that centre. I don't know if he does other public work within the hospital with domestic patients and I don't care.
In the centre itself, there are no interns. The people GS refers to are people he employs and form part of his team - there is Dr Buttner (if I remember his name correctly), who is a maxillo-facial surgeon - fully accredited and probably older than Zarrinbal, for example. So, most definitely not an intern. There is another female doctor whose name I can't remember, and she's an orthodontist. Again, not an intern. And there are the nurses.
In the operating room, I can hardly imagine interns operating on foreign patients who paid privately for the surgery in the commercial wing of the hospital. Imagine the legal liability of such practice. If there are interns in the hospital and they operate with him, I imagine they operate on domestic patients who do not pay any fee for the surgery (just like in UK and most other European countries, they are free of charge for them).
So, no. Another silly idea floating around in his defense being repeated by people who have never met him or had anything to do with him.
Belgium is a real country with real laws. The hospital has its team of lawyers and risk management strategies. It's beyond belief such practice where "interns" would operate on full-fee paying foreign patients who are treated in the commercial wing of the hospital that has its own name.
He has explicitly stated himself in e-mail that he receives a set wage from the University.
Is it not possible that he is head of a privately-run, university-owned wing of the hospital? Or some other such arrangement
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I mentioned on the other forum that I suspect MM is allowing interns to perform the surgeries on his patients as of late. Few hiccups can be excusable, but botched cases from a surgeons who's got extensive experience seems rather strange, so it's possible that it was one of his interns who was doing the work.
I don't think that MM is bad in the technical sense, it's just that with the interns situation and his assembly-line approach, I would steer clear from him. I prefer a surgeon who takes his time planning the surgery beforehand and doesn't leave a rookie slice open your face after they knock you out.
hmm I asked about this. He told me, that he will operate me. Could he lied me ?
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Exactly what do you mean he relies on computers? Does he just morph the faces using photoshop, or is it some sort of a software that's targeted for maxillofacial work?
what I know they have simulation programs based on CAD
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Optmistic: "01/10/14 - Last night I spilt spaghetti sauce on my chin for the very first time in my life and cried."
tell me more about it
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He has explicitly stated himself in e-mail that he receives a set wage from the University.
Is it not possible that he is head of a privately-run, university-owned wing of the hospital? Or some other such arrangement
Yes and that he has no incentive to take on patients as it is just hassle for him or something like that.
It's no wonder that he doesn't take time with the planning, he concentrates all his efforts into being as aloof and offensive as possible.
His behaviour supports what he said about his wage.
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Yes and that he has no incentive to take on patients as it is just hassle for him or something like that.
It's no wonder that he doesn't take time with the planning, he concentrates all his efforts into being as aloof and offensive as possible.
His behaviour supports what he said about his wage.
To be fair I found him very pleasant when I met him.
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To be fair I found him very pleasant when I met him.
Me too. Very kind and he spared me 1h 20minutes in his private clinic in Sint Marteen Latem
However he told me that his clinic will send query about payment procedure to my Poish National Health System. In Poland NHS is required (by law) and very expensive. That insurance cover all possible surgeries teoretically. Practically only simple ones. You can take another one, but very few people can afford 2 and more health insurances
However our NHS is totally fu*** up. I told to MM that it would be nice, but its impossible. I knew that I had to pay myself. He told me he will try...
after one month I wrote message to him about that issue. He answered me that NHS should give my money back (I have to pay myself), but he / his clinic have not sent any query to polish NHS..... so why he proposed that ? cant understand
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I have been in contact with Prof Mommaerts for a couple of years and I also find him very pleasant, he has been nothing but nice and he very reassuring regarding any worries I have about my surgery. I previously had a bad rhinoplasty and he carried out a revision rhinoplasty which has made my nose look so much better. I will be having bimax and genioplasty surgery with him in the near future and I have confidence in his skills - I can only base this on my experience to date. I would say that there were problems with administration for a while but there have been staff changes and it is so much better now. If you have had a bad experience, then I would be interested to hear from you and see your results. Please PM me. Thanks.
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I have been in contact with Prof Mommaerts for a couple of years and I also find him very pleasant, he has been nothing but nice and he very reassuring regarding any worries I have about my surgery. I previously had a bad rhinoplasty and he carried out a revision rhinoplasty which has made my nose look so much better. I will be having bimax and genioplasty surgery with him in the near future and I have confidence in his skills - I can only base this on my experience to date. I would say that there were problems with administration for a while but there have been staff changes and it is so much better now. If you have had a bad experience, then I would be interested to hear from you and see your results. Please PM me. Thanks.
He was pleasant and reassuring to me before my surgery as well and I wish he hadn't been because then I could've avoided wasting time and money on a pointless surgery. His demeanor changes completely after the surgery if you as much as hint that you're not happy with the result. There's another thread about Mommaerts on this forum in case you've missed it: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,748.0.html
This forum is full of people who have had failed surgeries with Mommaerts so do your own research before you go any further with him. To say that I don't recommend him would be an understatement.
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I have been in contact with Prof Mommaerts for a couple of years and I also find him very pleasant, he has been nothing but nice and he very reassuring regarding any worries I have about my surgery. I previously had a bad rhinoplasty and he carried out a revision rhinoplasty which has made my nose look so much better. I will be having bimax and genioplasty surgery with him in the near future and I have confidence in his skills - I can only base this on my experience to date. I would say that there were problems with administration for a while but there have been staff changes and it is so much better now. If you have had a bad experience, then I would be interested to hear from you and see your results. Please PM me. Thanks.
And which one of his minions are you?
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I know of someone who recently contacted him about revision surgery. Something within the range of what you'd expect him to be able to do. He declined to take the case. I reckon he's well aware of this forum and is likely in the process of hiring some rep management firm to get him off the hook.
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I know of someone who recently contacted him about revision surgery. Something within the range of what you'd expect him to be able to do. He declined to take the case. I reckon he's well aware of this forum and is likely in the process of hiring some rep management firm to get him off the hook.
This forum is unfortunately not as high up on the Google search results as it should be. It wasn't even on the first page the last time I checked. I've been getting a few personal messages from people who have had failed surgeries with him but don't want to post in public so the situation is even worse than you might think if you're just reading this thread.