jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: jaw on February 07, 2017, 06:54:41 PM
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For just the chance to potentially look better, is jaw surgery worth it?
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by itself, it will not have a dramatic impact. Most people do look better after.
However, it may be a necessary first step, as jaw surgery is the only thing that can provide anterior projection of the jaws. For example, a lot of implant results look subpar because typically the people who think they need implants actually have recession of one or both jaws.
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When performed on the appropriate candidate, orthognathic surgery can make a lifechanging difference to those who get it since by the realignment of the upper and the lower teeth issues related to proper functioning such as breathing chewing or even speech are sorted out.
However not every patient that goes through orthognathic surgery necessarily looks different or even better postoperatively. It can certainly help improve a deficient or overgrown mandible deformity for example, but one should never expect to look like a "model" or "sexy" afterwards to put it simply.
Orthognathic surgery for purely cosmetic reasons i.e. the patient who is willing to go through it might have a moderate jaw deformity but at the same time does not experience any occlusal or overall functional issues , is a risk that is rarely worth it. At best one would be disappointed from the marginal aesthetic improvement and at worst they could end up looking worse than before and have to go through revisional surgery to correct their previously healthy occlusion.
If someone has facial aesthetic concerns that are similar to those of the appropriate orthognathic surgery candidates such as mandibular deficiency, they have much safer options than orthognathic surgery to resolve them.
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For just the chance to potentially look better, is jaw surgery worth it?
You can see my thread on that, got the same debate in my head as well. I have a 12mm chin implant that seems to be compensating 'close enough' for the 15mm jaw advancement +3mm genio recommended by Gunson. Consider with bimax relapse, tissue tightening, etc. and you get no discernible difference in chin distance to the true vertical line between either surgery.
For the sake of this thread, for class 2 jaws, I'm going to argue that a large SG (8-12mm), or ideally chin wing will come within 90% of the aesthetic outcome, especially considering the dramatic difference in cost, risk and recovery of bimax. That's assuming you are not clinically deformed and have no moderate to severe medical symptoms. Can't comment on a custom chin implant, but suspect that could work just as well. The bimax part is a very subtle aesthetic change in and of itself.
Someone please tell me I'm way off, but that's what I've gathered from this forum so far, on the whole.
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When performed on the appropriate candidate, orthognathic surgery can make a lifechanging difference to those who get it since by the realignment of the upper and the lower teeth issues related to proper functioning such as breathing chewing or even speech are sorted out.
However not every patient that goes through orthognathic surgery necessarily looks different or even better postoperatively. It can certainly help improve a deficient or overgrown mandible deformity for example, but one should never expect to look like a "model" or "sexy" afterwards to put it simply.
Orthognathic surgery for purely cosmetic reasons i.e. the patient who is willing to go through it might have a moderate jaw deformity but at the same time does not experience any occlusal or overall functional issues , is a risk that is rarely worth it. At best one would be disappointed from the marginal aesthetic improvement and at worst they could end up looking worse than before and have to go through revisional surgery to correct their previously healthy occlusion.
If someone has facial aesthetic concerns that are similar to those of the appropriate orthognathic surgery candidates such as mandibular deficiency, they have much safer options than orthognathic surgery to resolve them.
What other options? I mostly have facial aesthetic concerns. Everything I see for a SG or chin procedure doesn't seem to match the potential for jaw operations
You can see my thread on that, got the same debate in my head as well. I have a 12mm chin implant that seems to be compensating 'close enough' for the 15mm jaw advancement +3mm genio recommended by Gunson. Consider with bimax relapse, tissue tightening, etc. and you get no discernible difference in chin distance to the true vertical line between either surgery.
For the sake of this thread, for class 2 jaws, I'm going to argue that a large SG (8-12mm), or ideally chin wing will come within 90% of the aesthetic outcome, especially considering the dramatic difference in cost, risk and recovery of bimax. That's assuming you are not clinically deformed and have no moderate to severe medical symptoms. Can't comment on a custom chin implant, but suspect that could work just as well. The bimax part is a very subtle aesthetic change in and of itself.
Someone please tell me I'm way off, but that's what I've gathered from this forum so far, on the whole.
The relapse is scaring me. I haven't seen any SG match what can be done on the maxilla though.
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what can be done on the maxilla though for significantly improved facial aesthetics? i belive it mildly improves the nasiolabial fold, shrinks the appearance of the nose, or removes excess gum show (gum show is a bigger factor for bimax imo), but other than that?
you could just get a rhinoplasty to achieve most of the same result. or do nothing as rhinoplasties don't work out well way too often. Now if your eyes are also kinda saggy and have significant scleral show, yeah I suppose maxilla advancement helps a little with that. I dono I feel jaded but really the percentage of people in my boat who are just ugly, compounded by recessive facial features like the jaws, who decide to undergo bimax + plastic surgeries to max out their aesthetic potential is like 1/10 of 1% of that subpopulation.
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Obviously it depends on how recessed you are. I've seen some life changing outcomes for sure, but all of them started off badly.
Look at foreverdets posts in this thread: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=4743.0
They are both have pretty suboptimal jaws and their results are insane.
Now go look at outcomes where they had pretty much balanced profiles in the first place and the difference is marginal.
The result is insane, but its probably worth noting that is the kind of result that can be achieved with large advancements.
The "run of the mill" jaw surgery results seen are people with minor functional problems, with aesthetics being a secondary concern. The whole focus in maxfac on aesthetics as primary and chief concern is a relatively new development it seems.
Point being, I think its not so much a case of only people who are severely deformed being able to get those kind of results (this doesnt make sense, as the limitations in these cases would be more limiting on the aesthetic outcome of one operation) but rather the capability/willingness of the doctor to achieve large movements.
10mm bsso + 8mm genio. Thats a chin point measurement increase of 18mm. Thats dramatic, and thats transformative.
Foreverdet's own results, some 20mm of chin point measurement, are equally impressive despite him feeling like the other case is better because the deformity was more evident. I disagree, I think his results are just as impressive.
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what can be done on the maxilla though for significantly improved facial aesthetics? i belive it mildly improves the nasiolabial fold, shrinks the appearance of the nose, or removes excess gum show (gum show is a bigger factor for bimax imo), but other than that?
you could just get a rhinoplasty to achieve most of the same result. or do nothing as rhinoplasties don't work out well way too often. Now if your eyes are also kinda saggy and have significant scleral show, yeah I suppose maxilla advancement helps a little with that. I dono I feel jaded but really the percentage of people in my boat who are just ugly, compounded by recessive facial features like the jaws, who decide to undergo bimax + plastic surgeries to max out their aesthetic potential is like 1/10 of 1% of that subpopulation.
My eyelids and eyes are slightly saggy. Additionally nasolabial folds being slightly fixed would be another concern of mine. Which is why I considered double jaw surgery.
See, that's another issue. I keep hearing Rhinoplasty results never turn out well for men, but my nose overprojects and is only compounded by my recession. I've been told by both surgeons and orthodontists that braces would fix my overbite since it's not huge. I've also been told perhaps just doing the lower jaw. I'm still waiting on what Gunson says in two months. But I'm looking at this being probably 80% for aesthetics.
But If I just fixed the nose and got an sg maybe I'd look a lot better, but maybe I guess I'm just wondering if I'd achieve better results with just jaw surgery alone. And if surgery is worth the risk for aesthetics and hardly any functional gain.
But then again I'd have to agree. I hardly see any true noticeable aesthetic gain for people that didn't have a huge recession which just worries me.
Or maybe I just accept how ugly I am and move on. But that would be hard knowing that there's a chance something could be fixed.
My ideal goal would be to minimize the folds, proportion the nose, and achieve more facial harmony. I like my front view more when I jut my jaw forward but that really doesn't say much. I just don't know how much everything else will change with jaw surgery as I keep reading it's a chance it could full on change the cheeks, eyes, etc.
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I agree that it seems that jaw surgery only really makes a significant aesthetic impact when advancement is rather large. If you need like a 6mm advancement you're probably better off with implants or a chin wing.
I just had surgery 6 days ago. Recovering pretty well, but still really swollen. First few days are hell. I've had lots of injuries and surgeries, and this is by far the worst 4 days ever, so don't underestimate the recovery. My surgery was to open my airway (and address some mild OSA) and largely for aesthetics. I had a pretty major deficiency, and as a result, large movements. Upper Jaw moved forward 6mm. Impacted 1 mm anteriorly, downgrafted 5mm posteriorly to rotate counter-clockwise. Lower jaw was brought forward 15mm, plus 7mm genio. With rotation, my chin came forward ~25-26mm. I had good eyes, brow, cheekbones, etc so really my main problem was my severely recessed jaws..
I obviously understood the risks, and went ahead with it. I didn't have many other options to get the results I was hoping for. Time will tell if this was the right call.
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I agree that it seems that jaw surgery only really makes a significant aesthetic impact when advancement is rather large. If you need like a 6mm advancement you're probably better off with implants or a chin wing.
I just had surgery 6 days ago. Recovering pretty well, but still really swollen. First few days are hell. I've had lots of injuries and surgeries, and this is by far the worst 4 days ever, so don't underestimate the recovery. My surgery was to open my airway (and address some mild OSA) and largely for aesthetics. I had a pretty major deficiency, and as a result, large movements. Upper Jaw moved forward 6mm. Impacted 1 mm anteriorly, downgrafted 5mm posteriorly to rotate counter-clockwise. Lower jaw was brought forward 15mm, plus 7mm genio. With rotation, my chin came forward ~25-26mm. I had good eyes, brow, cheekbones, etc so really my main problem was my severely recessed jaws..
I obviously understood the risks, and went ahead with it. I didn't have many other options to get the results I was hoping for. Time will tell if this was the right call.
Who was your surgeon?
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My eyelids and eyes are slightly saggy. Additionally nasolabial folds being slightly fixed would be another concern of mine. Which is why I considered double jaw surgery.
See, that's another issue. I keep hearing Rhinoplasty results never turn out well for men, but my nose overprojects and is only compounded by my recession. I've been told by both surgeons and orthodontists that braces would fix my overbite since it's not huge. I've also been told perhaps just doing the lower jaw. I'm still waiting on what Gunson says in two months. But I'm looking at this being probably 80% for aesthetics.
But If I just fixed the nose and got an sg maybe I'd look a lot better, but maybe I guess I'm just wondering if I'd achieve better results with just jaw surgery alone. And if surgery is worth the risk for aesthetics and hardly any functional gain.
But then again I'd have to agree. I hardly see any true noticeable aesthetic gain for people that didn't have a huge recession which just worries me.
Or maybe I just accept how ugly I am and move on. But that would be hard knowing that there's a chance something could be fixed.
My ideal goal would be to minimize the folds, proportion the nose, and achieve more facial harmony. I like my front view more when I jut my jaw forward but that really doesn't say much. I just don't know how much everything else will change with jaw surgery as I keep reading it's a chance it could full on change the cheeks, eyes, etc.
ive seen ur pics and i think jaw surgery alone will leave you sorely dissapointed. should probably see Dr. S in zurich, but id even question if he has the abilities to give you the transformation youre looking for.
Im having the aesthetics conundrum right now. I have minimal functional issues, but my jaws are kinda small and recessed. I think the decision to get surgery for aesthetics is personal. most of the population accepts the hand theyre delt, and moves on with life. some people, however, will never be happy with their appearance no matter how they look.
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If you go with dr sailer or at least go for that sort of change then probably yes it would be worth it, but opinion on sailer's aesthetic is not unanimous
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I am 5 wks post op purely for aesthetic reasons. (I did have 2nd class but my bite was OK). I can tell you, though its totally subjective- at the moment - I hate the results I believe I look worse and on top- I have paralyzed left upper and lowr lip. It can still resolve I hear, I may still "get used" to my new look and as mentioned before - Its all very subjective - but for me - I regret the surgery every second from the moment I wake up.. If you will go and do it, make sure you choose the best surgeon, not the best in your town or even country - really the one who makes tons of surgeries for aesthetic reasons, who cooperates w plastic surgeon whilst preparing who LISTENS to you and finds out what is your subjective idea of beauty, and what you LIKE and dislike about yourself. I think I ended up looking like my surgeon imagined. He is happy and thinks I look beautiful. I hate it and its nothing I imagined or expected. I liked my chin - my doc decided to do genii @ operating table, I liked my face a bit shorter - he lengthen it so now its looong, (to match 1/3rds..) and so on. I have not showed my face to anyone yet Im sick to the stomach, one person from this forum told me (after sending my pics) I look objectively better, my family is not saying much which I see as a bad sign, my closest friends say "you didn't change that much" which also is not "wow you look great or better"..
Having said that, if I could change the time, Id still do it, Id just do 3 things different:
*choose surgeon based on before after photos of patients operated FOR AESTHETIC REASONS ONLY
*change surgeon if he was ignoring my suggestions about movements (I wanted more fwd projection and lest downdraft)
*trust myself more..
** also If I knew about nerve damage option that affects my look (lips are crooked) I don't know if Id do it, hoping this will come back (nerve hasn't been cut) but if not.. than even perfect aesthetic result would still not be worth it. Im a rare case though my doc said he only had 2 patients with such "delicate" whatever to react with paralysis like that.
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I am 5 wks post op purely for aesthetic reasons. (I did have 2nd class but my bite was OK). I can tell you, though its totally subjective- at the moment - I hate the results I believe I look worse and on top- I have paralyzed left upper and lowr lip. It can still resolve I hear, I may still "get used" to my new look and as mentioned before - Its all very subjective - but for me - I regret the surgery every second from the moment I wake up.. If you will go and do it, make sure you choose the best surgeon, not the best in your town or even country - really the one who makes tons of surgeries for aesthetic reasons, who cooperates w plastic surgeon whilst preparing who LISTENS to you and finds out what is your subjective idea of beauty, and what you LIKE and dislike about yourself. I think I ended up looking like my surgeon imagined. He is happy and thinks I look beautiful. I hate it and its nothing I imagined or expected. I liked my chin - my doc decided to do genii @ operating table, I liked my face a bit shorter - he lengthen it so now its looong, (to match 1/3rds..) and so on. I have not showed my face to anyone yet Im sick to the stomach, one person from this forum told me (after sending my pics) I look objectively better, my family is not saying much which I see as a bad sign, my closest friends say "you didn't change that much" which also is not "wow you look great or better"..
Having said that, if I could change the time, Id still do it, Id just do 3 things different:
*choose surgeon based on before after photos of patients operated FOR AESTHETIC REASONS ONLY
*change surgeon if he was ignoring my suggestions about movements (I wanted more fwd projection and lest downdraft)
*trust myself more..
** also If I knew about nerve damage option that affects my look (lips are crooked) I don't know if Id do it, hoping this will come back (nerve hasn't been cut) but if not.. than even perfect aesthetic result would still not be worth it. Im a rare case though my doc said he only had 2 patients with such "delicate" whatever to react with paralysis like that.
Thanks for the advice. That sounds pretty depressing. I've read up on the possible nerve damages and possible perma numbness. It just makes this whole thing even harder to decide. Ultimately only considering it to look better but this is also not a realistic view to have bc I know it could end up worse.
Are you sure, since its only 5 weeks, that its not just the swelling that is making your view of yourself distorted?
ive seen ur pics and i think jaw surgery alone will leave you sorely dissapointed. should probably see Dr. S in zurich, but id even question if he has the abilities to give you the transformation youre looking for.
Im having the aesthetics conundrum right now. I have minimal functional issues, but my jaws are kinda small and recessed. I think the decision to get surgery for aesthetics is personal. most of the population accepts the hand theyre delt, and moves on with life. some people, however, will never be happy with their appearance no matter how they look.
Why do you think only jaw would leave me disappointed? I was originally considering jaw, rhino, and otoplasty since these are the three ugliest features i have. I'd consider doing the eyelids but I have no clue what my eyes will be like post surgery. I'm definitely not going to be the type that can accept how they look, it just means too much.
Get aesthetic or die trying imo.
might be easier for me to die tbh. really hate being unattractive.
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Thanks for the advice. That sounds pretty depressing. I've read up on the possible nerve damages and possible perma numbness. It just makes this whole thing even harder to decide. Ultimately only considering it to look better but this is also not a realistic view to have bc I know it could end up worse.
Are you sure, since its only 5 weeks, that its not just the swelling that is making your view of yourself distorted?
Of course Im not sure :) I can update you in next couple wks, it s what it is for now.
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Yeah this long face look is also something I told my surgeon I DO NOT WANT and he pretends I asked for it LOL.
Jaw surgery can make a nice difference in how the upper face is projected but I believe that the jaw has to be kept small and the maxilla shouldn't be moved too much forward (especially on a woman, bc it creates the monkey look).
I would do the surgery again but with a different doctor and the advise to keep the jaw feminine and small.
I think it takes away a lot of femininity if not done correctly and many women don't look really great after having it bc the face becomes long and the jaw too big.
my case is worse as its not fwd enough but yet looooong. hating it. well maybe I can shave the chin later on or reverse genioplasty I believe it'd already make a big difference. my chin was only advanced 3 mm but it does make a big difference when you have a round and small face which was mine.. before..
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Why do you think only jaw would leave me disappointed? I was originally considering jaw, rhino, and otoplasty since these are the three ugliest features i have. I'd consider doing the eyelids but I have no clue what my eyes will be like post surgery. I'm definitely not going to be the type that can accept how they look, it just means too much.
might be easier for me to die tbh. really hate being unattractive.
Does anyone have info on what I could do for my eyes?
I'm extremely worried they'll be even more deep set after surgery and even tilt downwards.
I know what its like not to be happy w your appearance but honestly I wouldn't advice you to go threw bimax looking at your photos. Go and see great plastic surgeon, maybe some minor and much less invasive procedures are possible for you. Believe me I hated the thought of having to go and get anything injected every couple months and didn't even want to hear about it but NOW after surgery I wish I had done so.. If however you will decide to go and do the surgery make sure you are 1000000% on the same page w your surgeon. Seriously even when you feel he doesn't have more time, is sick of you and your "ideas" push and discuss, don't get discouraged, make sure you have said everything you wanted to say and there s an understanding. I wish Id done so, I even remember thinking just b4the surgery to tell my surgeon not to lengthen my face too much and that Im much more concerned (and was) about how my jaw is retruded/not fwd enough whilst he was measuring 1/3rds.. I didn't say it. .. my doc said "it'll be OOOKKK" and I took it and thought "ok he knows what he's doing. It's hunting me ever since I saw my face post op..
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I know what its like not to be happy w your appearance but honestly I wouldn't advice you to go threw bimax looking at your photos. Go and see great plastic surgeon, maybe some minor and much less invasive procedures
I haven't seen OP's photos but if he has long face syndrome then osteotomies are the only solution to get him closer to where he wants to be. Soft tissue plastic surgery procedures are unlikely to improve that situation, they will just lead to wasted money and dissapointment.
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I've seen some plastic surgeons regarding rhinoplasty and a sliding genio. But I'm just not sure how suitable that would be given my face right now. I've heard reduction of the nose size can make my jaws appear less recessed, but a sliding genio can't achieve the same results a good jaw surgery could and rhinoplasty is just as much a crapshoot as jaw surgery.
Granted, wait time and money wise, I could just get a rhinoplasty right now which is the plus.
All the pics you could possibly want:
http://imgur.com/qalWUDm
http://imgur.com/z22La1V
http://imgur.com/Y7s7Asq
xrays:
http://imgur.com/FOObxeo
http://imgur.com/LDVI1n3
http://imgur.com/tE15gTA
lower weight + jutting jaw forward + goo d lighting:
http://imgur.com/koyo2Sv
OK thank you for sharing your photos, whilst I think you would benefit from jaw advancement, you look handsome in my opinion and won't be held back from opportunities due to your appearance. You definitely don't have long face syndrome lol.
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OK thank you for sharing your photos, whilst I think you would benefit from jaw advancement, you look handsome in my opinion and won't be held back from opportunities due to your appearance. You definitely don't have long face syndrome lol.
I laughed at this portion.
Thanks for the assessment. Do you think the jaw advancement would be more of an aesthetic benefit vs a sliding genio/rhinoplasty?
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I laughed at this portion.
Thanks for the assessment. Do you think the jaw advancement would be more of an aesthetic benefit vs a sliding genio/rhinoplasty?
Yes, if you want surgery do bimax before anything else.
Well I am open to accept that I am wrong and that you look worse in real life, but truly you don't look bad man.
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Yes, if you want surgery do bimax before anything else.
Well I am open to accept that I am wrong and that you look worse in real life, but truly you don't look bad man.
I'll just politely say that you are indeed wrong regarding my looks & opportunities and leave it at that.
I'm trying to max my aesthetics out, but again, jaw surgery would pretty much be for cosmetic purposes for me and all potential for relapse, bad outcomes, nerve damage, just really worries me. It's just a hard choice especially when its all really unknown what the results would be from that or what other 'easier' procedures would do.
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I'll just politely say that you are indeed wrong regarding my looks & opportunities and leave it at that.
I'm trying to max my aesthetics out, but again, jaw surgery would pretty much be for cosmetic purposes for me and all potential for relapse, bad outcomes, nerve damage, just really worries me. It's just a hard choice especially when its all really unknown what the results would be from that or what other 'easier' procedures would do.
Ok no worries man, have "easier" procedures and don't post on a jaw surgery forum.
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ok from that last pic il say youre not as bad as i thought.
bimax would help you. but its a personal decision as to if its worth it for you or not. dont expect the members of online forums to make the decision for you.
second; you can get away with plastic surgery instead of jaw surgery. that being said, it would be as you ourlined before: Rhino, Ottoplasty, SG AND most importantly in my opinion, somethin to fix ur negative canthal tilt. you can do that in a vast number of ways depending on the underlyin cause, which looks to me like its poor orbital projection, combined with weak and misaligned canthus.
finally, i recommend you stop looking for any further answers here. were not gonna tell you what to do. you have all the information, now the choice is ultimately yours.
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Yeah this long face look is also something I told my surgeon I DO NOT WANT and he pretends I asked for it LOL.
Jaw surgery can make a nice difference in how the upper face is projected but I believe that the jaw has to be kept small and the maxilla shouldn't be moved too much forward (especially on a woman, bc it creates the monkey look).
I would do the surgery again but with a different doctor and the advise to keep the jaw feminine and small.
I think it takes away a lot of femininity if not done correctly and many women don't look really great after having it bc the face becomes long and the jaw too big.
I believe, after reading many of your posts, that you do not understand what makes people good looking. Results that are good to me look monkey-ish and not feminine to you (the feminine/mascualine thing being completely untrue, but I've already addressed that on here before).
I'm not trying to be offensive to you so I apologize if this sounds like an attack. It's just I believe your perception of beauty is skewed from the norm. Perhaps mine is as well.
I'm curious, what do you think of Margot Robbie? Specifically, what do you think about her jaws and facial projection? IMO she is one of the most beautiful women in Hollywood.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1oHyFqodm8E/UJj2tGppplI/AAAAAAAAFNg/e1cDcgzXALI/s1600/margot-robbie-wolf-of-wall-street.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/19/article-2050968-0E6EB29F00000578-356_468x625.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/40/11/b2/4011b2e6f7a2d9ac7cc6f8c70ecf6114.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/03/article-0-19CD228000000578-202_306x520.jpg)
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I'm not sure what would make her jaw overprotected or monkeyish?
This is a normal projected jaw, quiet small and very feminine.
I really don't need to argue with stupid people on here bc they put words into my mouth. Where do you see an overprotected monkey maxilla or big jaw here?
Compare the face to Sailer's results.
OMG, really….
IMO the jaw surgery look is a combination of 3 things: the lower jaw advancement is all mandible, the ramus remains short and the maxilla is over advanced. Margot Robbie has a tall square ramus, high cheekbones, her whole face is forward grown (not just the maxilla and mandible). Jaw surgery cannot give you that. Only reincarnation.
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Maybe it's all lighting and makeup tricks:
(http://celebgalaxy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/margot-robbie-without-makeup-pictures.jpg)
But I hardly ever see women with jaws like this:
(http://media.glamour.com/photos/5695a46716d0dc3747ecfdcf/master/pass/beauty-2014-01-margot-robbie-date-night-makeup-idea-lashes-warm-blush-main.jpg)