jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => General Chat => Topic started by: x on January 12, 2013, 04:53:38 PM
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Asking because I've been seeing the orthodontist since I was either 9 or 10 years old. Is mouth breathing something they should've predicted with some foresight, and done something about back then? Or was it too late in growth stages anyways? ???
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Yup
Well the key thing here is that if you had a really amazing ortho at a young age (before 9 or 10 for sure) your palate is still malleable that it could expanded without surgery or extractions and your lower jaw could even be induced to grow. Before puberty simple distraction could also have been used to grow your jaws as Paul Coceancig is doing so successfully for so many kids. Hopefully this will expand to adults.
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I guess my ortho was s**t then
I just had braces and a retainer
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bump to get CK's opinion.
I imagine 10 y.o. was much too late already
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this is what i know from interacting with surgeons/dentists.
key growth occurs early on, like 6-10. yeah u might not see a lot but that is when the growth triggers occur, and that is the ideal time to redirect growth if it needs to be.
pretty much all the growth into adulthood is predicated on the original childhood growth periods. the bone development that is.
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this is what i know from interacting with surgeons/dentists.
key growth occurs early on, like 6-10. yeah u might not see a lot but that is when the growth triggers occur, and that is the ideal time to redirect growth if it needs to be.
pretty much all the growth into adulthood is predicated on the original childhood growth periods. the bone development that is.
man that blows. So even if the underlying issue is corrected the growth is still directed down the wrong path it sounds like ?
and yes guys I know the ship has sailed, I just take more interest in the growth stages than most jaw surgery candidates
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man that blows. So even if the underlying issue is corrected the growth is still directed down the wrong path it sounds like ?
and yes guys I know the ship has sailed, I just take more interest in the growth stages than most jaw surgery candidates
well the underlying issue is just the problem caused by the abnormal growth. the problem becomes more severe and less treatable as you get to a certain point in age.
jaw surgery becomes compensation aesthetically at this point, and correction according to a surgical standard. it's not a fix or cure, just a correction. i mean if you just have a straight up jaw deformity okay congrats, but frequently that isnt the case.
most surgeons dont advocate surgery in children and the role of growth is rarely discussed, though orthos r trained to recognize the signs and diagnose dentofacial deformities.
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well the underlying issue is just the problem caused by the abnormal growth. the problem becomes more severe and less treatable as you get to a certain point in age.
jaw surgery becomes compensation aesthetically at this point, and correction according to a surgical standard. it's not a fix or cure, just a correction. i mean if you just have a straight up jaw deformity okay congrats, but frequently that isnt the case.
most surgeons dont advocate surgery in children and the role of growth is rarely discussed, though orthos r trained to recognize the signs and diagnose dentofacial deformities.
I think my ortho had an eye for it, in removing nasal obstructions and keeping the upper palate wide for maximum airflow
No surgeon wants to give me a straightforward answer on whether mine is a straight up jaw deformity or more complex. I undrstand that thyey dont care, but it'd still be nice to know.I'll probably never know for sure
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(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1811/jaws2.jpg)
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(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1811/jaws2.jpg)
the second one is what i looked like, only my palate is much higher, like this:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Gray994-adenoid.png)
the xray they took that shows the muscle and soft tissue, looks exactly like that.
i wonder if that actually affects the neck similar to the illustration. i have that as well but i dont know if that is just due to poor posture habits.
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Left is: Forward + Lateral growth (proper development)
Right: Downward + Inward
obv it varies from person to person
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Left is: Forward + Lateral growth (proper development)
Right: Downward + Inward
obv it varies from person to person
arent orthos supposed to be trained in dentofacial growth? how could they miss this? seriously. guess $$$ means more than patient health. 8 years of braces is better than 2 years+surgery.
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Threads like this make me angry. I have been told a number of different things by orthodontists regarding this, the inconsistency tells me that either they don't know what the f**k they are talking about or some are lying.
I remain convinced that orthodontic work had a negative impact on my facial growth. I know I have seen a lot of people complaining/worrying about that and (to be honest) only a few that looks like it had a real noticeable impact, but in my case looking at before/after pictures makes it pretty clear.
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im not sure if they are lying or just ignorant. or after having gone through so much education, aren't really open to the idea of not knowing everything.
and if something goes wrong, the damage isnt seen till many years later.
some people are just born in a certain way and sucks for them, but for those of us who arent, it's so much worse. especially if it eats into your appearance and function. totally devastating.
looking at my status before braces and i cant believe what happened. i guess i got so used to everything i forgot how it was before. i just cant believe it.
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im not sure if they are lying or just ignorant. or after having gone through so much education, aren't really open to the idea of not knowing everything.
and if something goes wrong, the damage isnt seen till many years later.
some people are just born in a certain way and sucks for them, but for those of us who arent, it's so much worse. especially if it eats into your appearance and function. totally devastating.
looking at my status before braces and i cant believe what happened. i guess i got so used to everything i forgot how it was before. i just cant believe it.
I forgot.
Did you have braces a kid/teenager?
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Threads like this make me angry. I have been told a number of different things by orthodontists regarding this, the inconsistency tells me that either they don't know what the f**k they are talking about or some are lying.
I remain convinced that orthodontic work had a negative impact on my facial growth. I know I have seen a lot of people complaining/worrying about that and (to be honest) only a few that looks like it had a real noticeable impact, but in my case looking at before/after pictures makes it pretty clear.
yeah a lot of orthos seem completely clueless to the s**t that really matters (dental skeletal malocclusion) they "try" their best to fix the bite and completely ignore the rest
the real f**ked up part about all this is that braces have enough torque to f**k up your face but not enough to fix it
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I had laugh lines, and dark bags under my eyes at the age of 16. Before having extractions/head gear my mid-face and under eye area looked totally normal. I just had a class 2 jaw and that was fixed by preventing growth of my maxilla.
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I forgot.
Did you have braces a kid/teenager?
yea i had braces when i was 11/12-17, then 18+.
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yeah a lot of orthos seem completely clueless to the s**t that really matters (dental skeletal malocclusion) they "try" their best to fix the bite and completely ignore the rest
the real f**ked up part about all this is that braces have enough torque to f**k up your face but not enough to fix it
this.
my original ortho was like, "your bite is great." yeah, at the cost of preventing my jaw and face from growing properly. they are only ~4,000 orthos in the USA and as far as i know the philosophy remains largely unchanged, although orthos are finally catching on to the fact that extractions are a mistake.
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this.
my original ortho was like, "your bite is great." yeah, at the cost of preventing my jaw and face from growing properly. they are only ~4,000 orthos in the USA and as far as i know the philosophy remains largely unchanged, although orthos are finally catching on to the fact that extractions are a mistake.
I actually noticed something was wrong when I was a teenager and had finished orthodontic treatment. My parents took me back and I asked him about it and he said "your bite looks fine to me" and it was brushed off like that, I had always hated my "overbite" which was my understanding of my retruded jaw at the time... and that was made worse. My bite, however was put into acceptable alignment.
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I actually noticed something was wrong when I was a teenager and had finished orthodontic treatment. My parents took me back and I asked him about it and he said "your bite looks fine to me" and it was brushed off like that, I had always hated my "overbite" which was my understanding of my retruded jaw at the time... and that was made worse. My bite, however was put into acceptable alignment.
my ortho originally said i would need surgery from the get-go, but definitely under-sold it. he said the bite was the problem, but the jaw may need to be operated on to create the most ideal occlusion.
my parents were very concerned because they could see the rapid changes in my face but the ortho was confident in his diagnosis.
then when i actually started exploring surgery he decided to retire. awesome.
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Canadian orthodontists were surveyed by mail to determine the latest skeletal age at which they would recommend orthopedic therapy and orthognathic surgery and the earliest at which they would recommend orthognathic surgery. For the purposes of this introductory study, orthopedic therapy implied stimulation of physiologic response using appliance force, without specification of appliance type. Response rate from 512 orthodontists was 65% (n = 334), with the response rate by item varying from 92% to 95%. By Greulich and Pyle standards, the latest recommended age for orthopedic therapy was at 97% completion of skeletal growth (females 13.5 years, males 15 years), whereas the earliest recommended age for orthognathic surgery was when skeletal growth is 99% complete (females 14.9 years, males 16.5 years). Surgery would be recommended by 32% of respondents for a patient before the age of 8 years, if deformity is severe. For orthognathic surgery, respondents either perceived no age maximum or recommended 69 years, the maximum age on the questionnaire item. Orthodontists' traits influenced recommendations for timing treatment.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9484206 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9484206)
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orthodontists are sketchy. i mean look at head gear, all these appliances completely undermine the growth of the maxilla but hey if the occlusion is good no worries right?
and im not sure how healthy it is to put extreme pressure on the teeth at an early age, can that not affect growth? also there is a financial incentive. loads of people who need surgery young get braces instead.
if growth became more understood and people were more informed it would seriously affect the business of orthodontics.
these days it's almost mandatory kids get braces.
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orthodontists are sketchy.
a good chunk of them = SCUM
that is for sure
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a good chunk of them = SCUM
that is for sure
criminal imo. paying someone to destroy your appearance and function.
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orthodontists are sketchy. i mean look at head gear, all these appliances completely undermine the growth of the maxilla but hey if the occlusion is good no worries right?
and im not sure how healthy it is to put extreme pressure on the teeth at an early age, can that not affect growth? also there is a financial incentive. loads of people who need surgery young get braces instead.
if growth became more understood and people were more informed it would seriously affect the business of orthodontics.
these days it's almost mandatory kids get braces.
So true!
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Abstract
Management of the growing patient with mandibular dentofacial deformities presents a unique and challenging problem for orthodontists and surgeons. The surgical procedures required for correction of the deformity may affect postsurgical growth and dentofacial development. Further, facial growth may continue postoperatively and negate the benefits of surgery performed, resulting in treatment outcomes that are less than ideal. From individual patient characteristics, the type of deformity, and the indications for early surgical intervention, it is possible to effectively treat many cases during growth. A thorough understanding of facial growth patterns is essential, and each case needs to be evaluated individually. Surgery is often undertaken with the expectation that additional treatment, including more surgery, may be required after the completion of growth. The material presented here is based on the available research and the senior author'ss clinical experience of more than 25 years in the correction of mandibular deformities in the growing patient. Advantages and disadvantages of specific surgical techniques for correction of common mandibular deformities and pertinent age and surgical considerations are discussed. The material should be viewed as a general outline that provides broad guidelines for management of these patients. The management of maxillary deformities will be discussed in Part 2 of this article. (Am J Orthod Dentofacial Orthop 2001;119:95-101)
http://www.ajodo.org/article/S0889-5406(01)72231-7/abstract (http://www.ajodo.org/article/S0889-5406(01)72231-7/abstract)
wouldn't mind getting my hands on that entire piece but $31? >:(
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Abstract
Management of the growing patient with mandibular dentofacial deformities presents a unique and challenging problem for orthodontists and surgeons. The surgical procedures required for correction of the deformity may affect postsurgical growth and dentofacial development. Further, facial growth may continue postoperatively and negate the benefits of surgery performed, resulting in treatment outcomes that are less than ideal. From individual patient characteristics, the type of deformity, and the indications for early surgical intervention, it is possible to effectively treat many cases during growth. A thorough understanding of facial growth patterns is essential, and each case needs to be evaluated individually. Surgery is often undertaken with the expectation that additional treatment, including more surgery, may be required after the completion of growth. The material presented here is based on the available research and the senior author'ss clinical experience of more than 25 years in the correction of mandibular deformities in the growing patient. Advantages and disadvantages of specific surgical techniques for correction of common mandibular deformities and pertinent age and surgical considerations are discussed. The material should be viewed as a general outline that provides broad guidelines for management of these patients. The management of maxillary deformities will be discussed in Part 2 of this article. (Am J Orthod Dentofacial Orthop 2001;119:95-101)
http://www.ajodo.org/article/S0889-5406(01)72231-7/abstract (http://www.ajodo.org/article/S0889-5406(01)72231-7/abstract)
wouldn't mind getting my hands on that entire piece but $31? >:(
It is incredible that the literature for most fields of science is hidden behind a paywall. But I guess Elsevier's gotta make a buck...
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this abnormal growth s**t is fascinating
good read all around and I generally despise reading ;D
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i wish didnt even know about this.
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i wish didnt even know about this.
making the proper diagnosis is really f**king difficult though
very hard (for the surgeon) to determine if the abnormal growth is going to affect your jaw(s) exclusively or your entire face
no need to beat yourself up
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making the proper diagnosis is really f**king difficult though
very hard to determine if the abnormal growth is going to affect your jaw(s) exclusively or your entire face
no need to beat yourself up
i would have loved to know this when i was young and intervention was possible. but at our stage, treatment plan wont change regardless of our origin of growth.
if abnormal growth is diagnosed the best time for surgery (i was told) is 6/7, well before the on-set of puberty. this rarely happens unless you born with half your jaw or something nuts.
after that surgery can conflict with normal development and can be a huge headache for doctors. it's just easier and cheaper to wait it out and perform surgery when the growing is done.
i think the technology and knowledge exists to successfully manage surgery during growth periods, i just dont think there is a huge incentive among doctors.
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Threads like this make me angry. I have been told a number of different things by orthodontists regarding this, the inconsistency tells me that either they don't know what the f**k they are talking about or some are lying.
I remain convinced that orthodontic work had a negative impact on my facial growth. I know I have seen a lot of people complaining/worrying about that and (to be honest) only a few that looks like it had a real noticeable impact, but in my case looking at before/after pictures makes it pretty clear.
I sometimes have the same feeling, though it relates to NOT getting treatment (palatal expansion, etc.). At the end of the day it's difficult to know what caused what. For example, i have a retruded lower jaw, dark circles under my eyes, yet have minimal crowding of my teeth. Are my sinus problems and nighttime mouth breathing the cause of my circles and retruded jaw? Or was I born with crappy jaws to begin with that predisposed me to sinusitis and trouble breathing leading to dark circles. It's hard to know the cause and effect relationships in many cases. I despise my profile view and also wonder if my nasal issues were taken care of earlier if there was a chance for more optimal growth development...
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This guy looks like a fat Tony Stark, but I like what he does. Frankly, I so wish I could have had this done, I think totally would have improved my face. To answer the question has to be done between 7-10 years of age. I mean the device really does an amazing job expanding the jaws, I could have kept all my teeth had a nice wide palate and mandible. I still hope there will be genetic engineering of some sort in the next 10 years to solve the problems caused by extractions....
Before & After - Expanding the Upper and Lower jaws in a 7-10 year old (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guH3hB1xp5Q#ws)
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This guy looks like a fat Tony Stark, but I like what he does. Frankly, I so wish I could have had this done, I think totally would have improved my face. To answer the question has to be done between 7-10 years of age. I mean the device really does an amazing job expanding the jaws, I could have kept all my teeth had a nice wide palate and mandible. I still hope there will be genetic engineering of some sort in the next 10 years to solve the problems caused by extractions....
Before & After - Expanding the Upper and Lower jaws in a 7-10 year old (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guH3hB1xp5Q#ws)
so many better treatments could have been done when i was 7-10. ugh.
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so many better treatments could have been done when i was 7-10. ugh.
D.O. yo!
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D.O. yo!
are you still seriously considering/researching D.O? It's not as simple as it sounds. Palate expansion (i.e. SARPE) is in fact DO, and for the lower arch you can have DO mandibular widening. But I think the f**king expanders have to remain in your month for I've heard anywhere from 4-6 months during which time you'll need to be in braces. I don't even know what this means if you've had extractions already. Again, I'm just figuring 10 years, maybe they can just gentically engineer new teeth and then I'll just have a full set of pearly whites put in. Does that make sense. Is there any kind of psychology of future projections!? I bet in the 1980s they thought baldness would be cured by 2000. The difference is, genetic engineering of rudimentary sorts is in fact a reality and back then it wasn't.
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are you still seriously considering/researching D.O? It's not as simple as it sounds.
no, no... I meant as a preventive treatment for children with chaotic/abnormal growth
according to the paper that I linked earlier the "key bones" that define your face are set in stone (females, age:15) and (males, age: 17-18) so obliviously the sooner one acts the better and since D.O is much less invasive than traditional jaw surgery it won't be long until it's a mainstream treatment
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no, no... I meant as a preventive treatment for children with chaotic/abnormal growth
according to the paper that I linked earlier the "key bones" that define your face are set in stone (females, age:15) and (males, age: 17-18) so obliviously the sooner one acts the better and since D.O is much less invasive than traditional jaw surgery it won't be long until it's a mainstream treatment
i would have taken any treatment when i was younger. so much could have been preserved. some things orthodontists do borders on crime. dont know how they sleep.
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Ck you sound ridiculous. Get it together bro
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Ck you sound ridiculous. Get it together bro
u mad bro
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Ck you sound ridiculous. Get it together bro
this s**t is deep and serious yo!
don't be hatin
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lol i think it's useless to dream about "what if a super enlightened orthodontist came to save me when i was 4"
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lol i think it's useless to dream about "what if a super enlightened orthodontist came to save me when i was 4"
i dont think it is a matter of enlightenment. a lot of bad medicine continues to be practiced and people are left with life-long deformities.
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i dont think it is a matter of enlightenment. a lot of bad medicine continues to be practiced and people are left with life-long deformities.
Unfortunately that is so very true!!!
I would like to start laws or something to change that.