jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: Lazlo on April 11, 2018, 04:38:59 PM
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So, let me just break it down this way.
Having good cheekbones is CRUCIAL for male facial aesthetics and jaw enhancement an totally screw up
even having okay cheekbones. Jared leto and most people are gorgeous cause they have amazing under-eye and cheekbone eminemces.
So I'm talking about all three aspects. The orbital rim, the zygoma/malar eminence and the side. Not only do you need protrusive but you need total VOLUME and BULK --you need big bones there.
There currently is NO solution. Sinn's surgery is too weak. Only causes a bit of enhancement to the orbital rim, doesn nothing for the cheekbones or anything else. Doesn't even address the side.
The ZSO doesn't do anyting for orbital rim or the malar eminence or even the side, just creates a bit of lateral support (a bit).
And then all the various HA pastes etc. basically do amost nothing, again just a "bit" of support.
So let's refresh this thread and talk about possible solutions. What might be just on the horizon. Or new osteotomies you guys might be hearing about. Certainly growing bone implants would help.
Again, I'm not interested in anything synthetic. I'm looking for a biological fix.
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Guys' this is the type of stuff that will be the game cahngers.
In fact you could have bones that are stronger than the ones you have now.
Resistant to shattering.
https://splice-bio.com/3d-printed-implant-transforms-real-bone/
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So, let me just break it down this way.
Having good cheekbones is CRUCIAL for male facial aesthetics and jaw enhancement an totally screw up
even having okay cheekbones.
Yeah so apparently my cheekbones are 'OK' because there's a relationship between the size and shape of your jaw, and the robustness of your cheekbones. I forget what those are exactly, but I think it has to do with the size of your ramus (mines almost nonexistant) and the mandibular plane angle. I think Kavan touched on it in an earlier post, but Alfaro told me this straight up in a consult before that. So my jaw structure is so meek that cheek implants will look uncanny, is my takeaway, despite having recessive malars at the least. This is tangential to just building up cheekbones, but there's a context that people, particularly on a jaw surgery forum, may get hit with like I was re: this proportionate relationship.
I agree we're pretty boned on mid-face solutions right now. The thing you linked doesn't look like something you could shape, like medpor, for the face. Are you referring to Sinn's modified LF3 in the OP?
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Sinn's modified lefort 3 is borderline useless.
Yes, I agree, the device I linked to looks like its for interposition between a break so as a graft and not
an onlay.
But the technology, if they can build bone in a bioreactor would be easy to graft and shape as an onlay.
As far as I can tell with various companies PolarityTE and Epibone etc. the proof of concept is there, they just don't yet know how to build a bioreactor and technology design that will be able to build your own bone (after a sample is taken) that can be done fastly and efficiently. I think right now it takes several months to grow such bone. Obviously, not clinically feasible really. So they're working on discovering new technologies.
My fear is that its going to really take a while (so long it won't really help me) --I think 10 years at the least. And once AI and Quantum computing get going (which will definitely happen in our lifetime) then new discoveries may be ramped up.
But there is literally NO solution right now. Let's say you get sinn's MFL3 plus 2 ZSO's you're still like just borderline better. No one has shown pics to prove differently.
And yeah, growing new bone would be amazing for jaw enhancement too.
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Sinn's modified lefort 3 is borderline useless.
Yes, I agree, the device I linked to looks like its for interposition between a break so as a graft and not
an onlay.
But the technology, if they can build bone in a bioreactor would be easy to graft and shape as an onlay.
As far as I can tell with various companies PolarityTE and Epibone etc. the proof of concept is there, they just don't yet know how to build a bioreactor and technology design that will be able to build your own bone (after a sample is taken) that can be done fastly and efficiently. I think right now it takes several months to grow such bone. Obviously, not clinically feasible really. So they're working on discovering new technologies.
My fear is that its going to really take a while (so long it won't really help me) --I think 10 years at the least. And once AI and Quantum computing get going (which will definitely happen in our lifetime) then new discoveries may be ramped up.
But there is literally NO solution right now. Let's say you get sinn's MFL3 plus 2 ZSO's you're still like just borderline better. No one has shown pics to prove differently.
And yeah, growing new bone would be amazing for jaw enhancement too.
>My fear is that its going to really take a while (so long it won't really help me) --I think 10 years at the least.
Is that why you were optimistic for my case since I'm only 22? Technology like this?
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>My fear is that its going to really take a while (so long it won't really help me) --I think 10 years at the least.
Is that why you were optimistic for my case since I'm only 22? Technology like this?
Dude you're a baby. You should be focusssing on becomming awesome at something so you're not crying abotu your misfortune when you're 32 or 42. Like seriously work motherf**ker and become awesome at a skill society values whether its accounting or f**king medicine.
Then you'll have the money to take advantage of all the new amazing technologies that will be around in 10 years. Yeah it'll take that long minimum. But you'll still be really young. Not like us old foggies whose life is basically over as far as beauty, attraction and the like are concerned.
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You kinda have to have something going for you before surgery. If dude says he's hideous and has no redeemable feature, that's unlikely to change. Unless of course we reach the point where you can change a face ala character creation menu in Fallout.
On the upside sex robots are becoming a thing. So there you go. Something to look forward to in your bright future. /sarcasm
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Dude you're a baby. You should be focusssing on becomming awesome at something so you're not crying abotu your misfortune when you're 32 or 42. Like seriously work motherf**ker and become awesome at a skill society values whether its accounting or f**king medicine.
Then you'll have the money to take advantage of all the new amazing technologies that will be around in 10 years. Yeah it'll take that long minimum. But you'll still be really young. Not like us old foggies whose life is basically over as far as beauty, attraction and the like are concerned.
Yeah I know you are right there about making money. I'll follow it.
But a reason why I'm around here so much is since I'm curious what these amazing technologies could exist in around 10 years. I don't care about being 32 since that would still be relatively young.
Can you give me an idea of those? I'm just curious. I'll leave this forum for another several months. I'd just like an overview if you know.
Since it would be nice if we can precisely reshape parts of the face using your own bone or something bio compatible. I wish we could improve upper orbitals etc too.
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You kinda have to have something going for you before surgery. If dude says he's hideous and has no redeemable feature, that's unlikely to change. Unless of course we reach the point where you can change a face ala character creation menu in Fallout.
On the upside sex robots are becoming a thing. So there you go. Something to look forward to in your bright future. /sarcasm
Well that is what Lazlo keeps trying to tell me I think. I'm pessimistic. I asked him what sort of technologies another time too but he didn't respond. Yeah, its hopeless considering the lack of technology unless I find a girl who has some ugly guy fetish to be legit attracted to me.
Also haha about the sexbots, lol.
I think he might just be telling me this to give me a coping mechanism and so I would want to reluctantly live another decade.
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Well that is what Lazlo keeps trying to tell me I think. I'm pessimistic. I asked him what sort of technologies another time too but he didn't respond. Yeah, its hopeless considering the lack of technology unless I find a girl who has some ugly guy fetish to be legit attracted to me.
Also haha about the sexbots, lol.
I think he might just be telling me this to give me a coping mechanism and so I would want to reluctantly live another decade.
I very much doubt you’re as hideous as you say. But when I felt the way you do in my mid 20’s I decided to do the best I could with what I had and what was at my disposal. That meant forgoing expensive jaw surgery that ideally I should of had and taking a genioplasty I could get for free on NHS. It also meant eating loads and going to the gym to get some meat on my emaciated bones. I am 37 now and it pretty much worked out as I hoped.
Tl/dr if I’d of waited 10 years for new technology I’d still be waiting. There’s been nothing new since 2004 when I was looking apart from fillers and ha paste and they’re a bit wack. Do you really want to risk waiting?
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I sincerely doubt he looks straight up deformed. I was gonna post some pictures but Im not about shaming people. There are people out there who really benefit from advancements in technology. Unfortunately you need money for afford most things that provide a better quality of life (food, medicine etc)
Yeah dating is tough for dudes but that's their own fault. They should have standards lmao. Just finish up school, work and set goals for yourself (outside of obsessing over relationships). If you have a weak chin you want to "correct" because you feel holds you back then go for it. Just don't go overboard.
There's one forum member who I found posting on realself saying he wanted procedures that would make him look like a male model and he is nowhere near close to looking like one lmao. Stay realistic and grounded.
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I very much doubt you’re as hideous as you say. But when I felt the way you do in my mid 20’s I decided to do the best I could with what I had and what was at my disposal. That meant forgoing expensive jaw surgery that ideally I should of had and taking a genioplasty I could get for free on NHS. It also meant eating loads and going to the gym to get some meat on my emaciated bones. I am 37 now and it pretty much worked out as I hoped.
Tl/dr if I’d of waited 10 years for new technology I’d still be waiting. There’s been nothing new since 2004 when I was looking apart from fillers and ha paste and they’re a bit wack. Do you really want to risk waiting?
So you had your procedure years back and haven't had any issues?
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I very much doubt you’re as hideous as you say. But when I felt the way you do in my mid 20’s I decided to do the best I could with what I had and what was at my disposal. That meant forgoing expensive jaw surgery that ideally I should of had and taking a genioplasty I could get for free on NHS. It also meant eating loads and going to the gym to get some meat on my emaciated bones. I am 37 now and it pretty much worked out as I hoped.
Tl/dr if I’d of waited 10 years for new technology I’d still be waiting. There’s been nothing new since 2004 when I was looking apart from fillers and ha paste and they’re a bit wack. Do you really want to risk waiting?
I'm not just waiting. I'll get whatever technology exists right now meaning when I'm 24-25 and I can afford them. But I'm not optimistic about it.
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I sincerely doubt he looks straight up deformed. I was gonna post some pictures but Im not about shaming people. There are people out there who really benefit from advancements in technology. Unfortunately you need money for afford most things that provide a better quality of life (food, medicine etc)
Yeah dating is tough for dudes but that's their own fault. They should have standards lmao. Just finish up school, work and set goals for yourself (outside of obsessing over relationships). If you have a weak chin you want to "correct" because you feel holds you back then go for it. Just don't go overboard.
There's one forum member who I found posting on realself saying he wanted procedures that would make him look like a male model and he is nowhere near close to looking like one lmao. Stay realistic and grounded.
I know what you mean about those deformed people.
Also if just a weak chin was my problem, I wouldn't be so sad. Its clearly more than just that.
I don't want to look like a male model, but just okish where I'm sexually attractive. My current goals are fitness goals up to age 25.
And about the realistic part, what lazlo is trying to tell me is that actually major changes will be doable when I'm 32 according to him. Which I don't believe.
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So you had your procedure years back and haven't had any issues?
Yep, had a big genioplasty in 2005/06 and no issues to speak of. Of course ideally I should have had braces, dbl jaw surgery, the works but it wasn’t an option for me so I did what I could. It bugged me for a few years that I had a narrow and asymmetric jaw and I thought about implants but I am glad I didn’t do it in the end. My neck filled out from the gym and I think that lookism stuff (hate that website btw) about a thick neck making your jaw look better is true.
Sorry for the derail OP but I don’t agree cheekbones are that important aesthetically for guys. A good chin is enough, a good jaw is even better everything else is just icing on the cake.
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Yep, had a big genioplasty in 2005/06 and no issues to speak of. Of course ideally I should have had braces, dbl jaw surgery, the works but it wasn’t an option for me so I did what I could. It bugged me for a few years that I had a narrow and asymmetric jaw and I thought about implants but I am glad I didn’t do it in the end. My neck filled out from the gym and I think that lookism stuff (hate that website btw) about a thick neck making your jaw look better is true.
Sorry for the derail OP but I don’t agree cheekbones are that important aesthetically for guys. A good chin is enough, a good jaw is even better everything else is just icing on the cake.
No its stupid to single out individual features. Everything matters to some extent. And at times if a person is deficient for one part they can make up for it elsewhere and still look good.
Yeah 22-25 should be the time for me to max my physique at least.
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Cheek bones (or cheek augmentation) is over rated in men.
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Cheek bones (or cheek augmentation) is over rated in men.
Def. Many good looking guys like lachowski etc don't have very massive ones. I guess having a particular sort of cheekbones with a square jawline can allow a "super masculine" look over a pretty boy type?
Its def a nice thing to have though.
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Cheek bones (or cheek augmentation) is over rated in men.
I don't give a f**k, its just that I NEED CHEEKBONES for my individual features and that's what this thread is about. Not about you guys debating your copecel mechanisms (sarcasm).
22 year old guy. f**k man, if I was that age I was breath in a big breath of fresh air and become a marathon runner or some s**t that would help me enjoy my youth and my body. If you wanna sleep with hookers sometimes go for it --its no big deal and can be a lot of fun. Also there's ALWAYS some chick who will sleep/date etc. you.
You keep asking me what will be available in 10 years. Yes some crazy s**t will be invented in the next 10 years since we're on the cusp of using Crisp-R, bioreactors, epibone to synthesize bone. By 2030 for sure you'll be able to full Fallout (my brother plays that game) create the way you look or at least you'll have enough tech that will take you to 2040 when definitelyh it'll be there.
But who the f**k cares. You're getting laid in the meantime. You don't need crazy looks or even average looks to get laid. Just take good care of yourself, bodybuild, dress well and make yourself interesting by doing interesting s**t (f**king around on a jaw surgery forum not included).
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You wanna know what kind of tech:
Imagine this you go into a cosmetic surgeon place. They take samples of your skin, hair, bone, fat.
Grow totally new hair, facial skin, teeth, jaw bone implants made with your own bone, even new eyes cause your eyes may be weak. Ask you what kind of hair texture, color you want etc.
WHile you live at this cosmetic surgery resort your various parts will be enhanced and replaced while you convalesce and heal in various sorts of enhanced plasma thermal pools, vitamin IVs, artificially ehanced blood transfusions, and premium blow-jobs from biologically identical sex-robos. Nano-robots the size of cells will enter your body and rejuvenate and replace all living cells reprogramming them back to the cells of a healthy athletic 20 year old.
In fact since youll be achieving your ego ideal they will also synthesize a sex-robo who is the same gender and looks as your new self and you will be able to f**k him up the ass, felch him, give him (yourself blow-jobs) and receive them from him. Have him reverse cowboy you, rim you, and finish it off with a nice hot urine bath to the face. I mean screw women, there is nothing greater than having sex with your ego ideal.
Cost for full 3 month set of procedures (figuring inflation for 2050s prices): 4,500 000 pieces of Gold-Pressed Latinum.
Work work!
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I don't give a f**k, its just that I NEED CHEEKBONES for my individual features and that's what this thread is about. Not about you guys debating your copecel mechanisms (sarcasm).
22 year old guy. f**k man, if I was that age I was breath in a big breath of fresh air and become a marathon runner or some s**t that would help me enjoy my youth and my body. If you wanna sleep with hookers sometimes go for it --its no big deal and can be a lot of fun. Also there's ALWAYS some chick who will sleep/date etc. you.
You keep asking me what will be available in 10 years. Yes some crazy s**t will be invented in the next 10 years since we're on the cusp of using Crisp-R, bioreactors, epibone to synthesize bone. By 2030 for sure you'll be able to full Fallout (my brother plays that game) create the way you look or at least you'll have enough tech that will take you to 2040 when definitelyh it'll be there.
But who the f**k cares. You're getting laid in the meantime. You don't need crazy looks or even average looks to get laid. Just take good care of yourself, bodybuild, dress well and make yourself interesting by doing interesting s**t (f**king around on a jaw surgery forum not included).
Then get an implant and stop waiting for this future stuff. You can get them out in the future once they can be replaced with your futuristic spontaneously combusted bone matter.
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Def. Many good looking guys like lachowski etc don't have very massive ones. I guess having a particular sort of cheekbones with a square jawline can allow a "super masculine" look over a pretty boy type?
Its def a nice thing to have though.
Jaw line is more important. Over augmentation with cheeks does not look good on guys.
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I don't give a f**k, its just that I NEED CHEEKBONES for my individual features and that's what this thread is about. Not about you guys debating your copecel mechanisms (sarcasm).
22 year old guy. f**k man, if I was that age I was breath in a big breath of fresh air and become a marathon runner or some s**t that would help me enjoy my youth and my body. If you wanna sleep with hookers sometimes go for it --its no big deal and can be a lot of fun. Also there's ALWAYS some chick who will sleep/date etc. you.
You keep asking me what will be available in 10 years. Yes some crazy s**t will be invented in the next 10 years since we're on the cusp of using Crisp-R, bioreactors, epibone to synthesize bone. By 2030 for sure you'll be able to full Fallout (my brother plays that game) create the way you look or at least you'll have enough tech that will take you to 2040 when definitelyh it'll be there.
But who the f**k cares. You're getting laid in the meantime. You don't need crazy looks or even average looks to get laid. Just take good care of yourself, bodybuild, dress well and make yourself interesting by doing interesting s**t (f**king around on a jaw surgery forum not included).
I don't know. I hope we can fallout our face out. Also I don't know why people are compelled into telling me dating and sex life advice when that's not even a question.
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You wanna know what kind of tech:
Imagine this you go into a cosmetic surgeon place. They take samples of your skin, hair, bone, fat.
Grow totally new hair, facial skin, teeth, jaw bone implants made with your own bone, even new eyes cause your eyes may be weak. Ask you what kind of hair texture, color you want etc.
WHile you live at this cosmetic surgery resort your various parts will be enhanced and replaced while you convalesce and heal in various sorts of enhanced plasma thermal pools, vitamin IVs, artificially ehanced blood transfusions, and premium blow-jobs from biologically identical sex-robos. Nano-robots the size of cells will enter your body and rejuvenate and replace all living cells reprogramming them back to the cells of a healthy athletic 20 year old.
In fact since youll be achieving your ego ideal they will also synthesize a sex-robo who is the same gender and looks as your new self and you will be able to f**k him up the ass, felch him, give him (yourself blow-jobs) and receive them from him. Have him reverse cowboy you, rim you, and finish it off with a nice hot urine bath to the face. I mean screw women, there is nothing greater than having sex with your ego ideal.
Cost for full 3 month set of procedures (figuring inflation for 2050s prices): 4,500 000 pieces of Gold-Pressed Latinum.
Work work!
Dude...
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Then get an implant and stop waiting for this future stuff. You can get them out in the future once they can be replaced with your futuristic spontaneously combusted bone matter.
I haven't seen good results via implants. I'm sure lazlo hasn't either hence that. Also yeah I think he's trying to be a bit too opportunistic and coping hard with the muh future stuff.
I wish medical technology development was like electronics with rapidness.
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Jaw line is more important. Over augmentation with cheeks does not look good on guys.
For all of this, shape matters the most, lol. I've seen on all these forums talking about projection, size, blah, blah, blah but very few address the importance of size of the bone mass etc. I guess its since people are trying to not think about things they can't change anyways. Implants seem to be very restricted too.
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Jaw line is more important. Over augmentation with cheeks does not look good on guys.
Sorry I meant shape. Also hard to read anything lazlo tells me with a straight face. I just wish he gave me a serious response. Else I'd be on lookism. ;D
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Maybe high cheek implants with jaw implants could work? This Eppley patient posted some of his results on lookism. I thought it looked a bit odd but then the jaw angle filler he added, mimicing really flared jaw angle implants, seemed to make the zygo heft look more natural. He doesn't give good shots though to really tell for sure how it came out, or true b/a's. His submalars look unnaturally deficient in Eppley's (probably photoshopped skin) webpage. That's the problem with these sites.. lots of smoke and mirrors.
http://exploreplasticsurgery.com/case-study-high-cheekbone-look-custom-infraorbital-implants/
Also this guy made out well. Shows how even 8mm jaw angle implants (& that specific design for his face) don't really do much, but it helped I guess (in combo w/cheek implants).
https://www.dryaremchuk.com/img/ctpatient1.jpg
Here's one more guy showing how jaw heft augmentation alone make a big difference (but still swollen 1 month post op. yes he is). BUT he's also not taking proper pictures to compare true b/a. Basically I'm coming out of this quick research sesh where I started - uncertain of any procedure's worth to the cheeks. But it does look like there's options out there now. I wish I could see examples of the supposed long term looks problems with implant augmentation everyone warns about.
https://imgur.com/a/bjkdr
These images were all publicly posted on reddit or Eppley's site.
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I haven't seen good results via implants.
custom made silicon implant:
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/i1l4ap.jpg)
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Maybe high cheek implants with jaw implants could work? This Eppley patient posted some of his results on lookism. I thought it looked a bit odd but then the jaw angle filler he added, mimicing really flared jaw angle implants, seemed to make the zygo heft look more natural. He doesn't give good shots though to really tell for sure how it came out, or true b/a's. His submalars look unnaturally deficient in Eppley's (probably photoshopped skin) webpage. That's the problem with these sites.. lots of smoke and mirrors.
http://exploreplasticsurgery.com/case-study-high-cheekbone-look-custom-infraorbital-implants/
Also this guy made out well. Shows how even 8mm jaw angle implants (& that specific design for his face) don't really do much, but it helped I guess (in combo w/cheek implants).
https://www.dryaremchuk.com/img/ctpatient1.jpg
Here's one more guy showing how jaw heft augmentation alone make a big difference (but still swollen 1 month post op. yes he is). BUT he's also not taking proper pictures to compare true b/a. Basically I'm coming out of this quick research sesh where I started - uncertain of any procedure's worth to the cheeks. But it does look like there's options out there now. I wish I could see examples of the supposed long term looks problems with implant augmentation everyone warns about.
https://imgur.com/a/bjkdr
These images were all publicly posted on reddit or Eppley's site.
Well, not every guy (actually very few) is going to look more like a male model even if they get the cheek implants 'like a male model'. That sort of thing only works well if the person ALMOST looks like a male model EXCEPT for the cheek area. Male models have special 'magic' eye sockets that can't be reproduced via surgery. They all (well most of them) have the very 'long' narrow eyes going on and due to that most of the rest of the bone structure is good too. So, unless someone STARTS with those type of EYES, no amount of bone augmentation will be making anyone looking like a model.
As to the links you gave:
Eppley's example:
He shows a MALE MODEL for the photo. But the bone scan image with implants--well WHO KNOWS what the guy looks like IN THE FLESH.
Yaremchuck's example:
The guy looks better. But hope he didn't expect to 'look like a model'.
The 3rd example just looks like a nerdy guy who's now got a chin that is TOO BIG/long for the jaw. When the chin is made longer that way, the back of the jaw angle can look too relatively high.
NONE of them look 'like models' BUT MAYBE didn't expect that. If all they wanted was more boney projection where they each got it, then all is good.
But some of these docs, especially Eppley, really go after the guys looking for the 'model look'. But few to none of the 'I want to look like a model' types will ever look like one. That's because the male models all have a type of EYE SOCKET that NEVER can be reproduced. It's the type of socket where the eyes are horizontally 'long' where the eyes are spaced apart 'one eye' length. So, that means their HEADS area also proportionally LARGE.
Thing with the male models is IF they have the EYE AREA going on, they also have the BROW covering over that going on too and most likely the UNDER EYE bone support to orbital rim and the HIGH cheek bone area. It's ALL in the EYES; the SOCKETS. That's what male models (females too) that can NEVER be reproduced with plastic or bone surgery.
The docs appeal to guys who want that stuff to look more 'like a model' but they NEVER tell them straight on that they WILL NOT look like a male model (unless they start out with the EYES and only need some jaw or chin work.) I've seen but ugly guys on real self asking the doctors how they can get 'this or that' like a male model and not one of them tell them that they will NEVER get the look of the model. They just try to sell them on their services.
Here is EXAMPLE: Guy on RealSelf asks the doctors 'how to get cheeks like a MODEL'.
NONE of them break it to him that he has NO CHANCE of EVER looking remotely like a male model whether or not he gets cheek augmentation 'like the models have'.
https://www.realself.com/question/chiseled-and-hollow-cheeks-like-male-model#media-question-657613-image-156365
ETA: This is not the actual guy asking the question. It's someone using other people's photos. But just goes to show, none of the doctor responses told the guy straight out, no way he's going to look anything like a model.
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I haven't seen good results via implants. I'm sure lazlo hasn't either hence that. Also yeah I think he's trying to be a bit too opportunistic and coping hard with the muh future stuff.
I wish medical technology development was like electronics with rapidness.
I've seen good and bad results. It depends on the person's 'start point' and also the type of cheek implant. Personally, I can look at a photo (well 3 actually; front, profile and 3/4 view) and can tell IF a person would benefit by an implant (or even a bone cut) and what type or just WHERE the augmentation should be. It's kind of futile to discuss cheek implants in the absence of seeing what the CANDIDACY may or may not be.
For the most part, this is not a matter of 'high technology'. It is more of a matter of having an ARTISTIC EYE, the ability to SEE (visualize) what is NOT THERE on the face and knowing what is needed to put it there. Ability to 'see', astute observation is a LOST ART. It's not a 'high tech' thing.
I went to school (MIT) with the best and the brightest as far as high technology goes. What most of them had in common was artistic and aesthetic BLINDNESS. So good luck to you and Lazlo just waiting for the tech geniuses to design your face.
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They're trade offs with implants, and agree with who can develop into model material. I was just looking for example results with what looks to me like significant, natural improvements in looks with the right jaw and cheek implant combo's. The alternative result for the nerd with the huge jaw wrap around could've been a chin with an unnaturally strong labiomental sulcus, if they opted for a non-vertical lengthening, 'regular' style shape. Or they could've gone custom to get the best result, but they didn't. Still it looks enhancing in that my eyes don't get drawn to the jaw area in a bad way. Looks great to me especially considering his start point, though it'll probably soften 20% or so once all swelling goes. He ideally would have gotten bimax first, but not bad alternative from what I can see.
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I've seen good and bad results. It depends on the person's 'start point' and also the type of cheek implant. Personally, I can look at a photo (well 3 actually; front, profile and 3/4 view) and can tell IF a person would benefit by an implant (or even a bone cut) and what type or just WHERE the augmentation should be. It's kind of futile to discuss cheek implants in the absence of seeing what the CANDIDACY may or may not be.
For the most part, this is not a matter of 'high technology'. It is more of a matter of having an ARTISTIC EYE, the ability to SEE (visualize) what is NOT THERE on the face and knowing what is needed to put it there. Ability to 'see', astute observation is a LOST ART. It's not a 'high tech' thing.
I went to school (MIT) with the best and the brightest as far as high technology goes. What most of them had in common was artistic and aesthetic BLINDNESS. So good luck to you and Lazlo just waiting for the tech geniuses to design your face.
Sure I'll do that after i have lost enough weight.
I'm not the tech sort here. Lazlo is. Well start point implies that the person already has good definition, no? Basically where the before and afters look pretty much the same.
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Sure I'll do that after i have lost enough weight.
I'm not the tech sort here. Lazlo is. Well start point implies that the person already has good definition, no? Basically where the before and afters look pretty much the same.
Start point is how they look without cheek augmentation. Something where the cheek enhancement can be the 'icing on the cake' if the rest of the cake is 'baked evenly'.
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Well, not every guy (actually very few) is going to look more like a male model even if they get the cheek implants 'like a male model'. That sort of thing only works well if the person ALMOST looks like a male model EXCEPT for the cheek area. Male models have special 'magic' eye sockets that can't be reproduced via surgery. They all (well most of them) have the very 'long' narrow eyes going on and due to that most of the rest of the bone structure is good too. So, unless someone STARTS with those type of EYES, no amount of bone augmentation will be making anyone looking like a model.
As to the links you gave:
Eppley's example:
He shows a MALE MODEL for the photo. But the bone scan image with implants--well WHO KNOWS what the guy looks like IN THE FLESH.
Yaremchuck's example:
The guy looks better. But hope he didn't expect to 'look like a model'.
The 3rd example just looks like a nerdy guy who's now got a chin that is TOO BIG/long for the jaw. When the chin is made longer that way, the back of the jaw angle can look too relatively high.
NONE of them look 'like models' BUT MAYBE didn't expect that. If all they wanted was more boney projection where they each got it, then all is good.
But some of these docs, especially Eppley, really go after the guys looking for the 'model look'. But few to none of the 'I want to look like a model' types will ever look like one. That's because the male models all have a type of EYE SOCKET that NEVER can be reproduced. It's the type of socket where the eyes are horizontally 'long' where the eyes are spaced apart 'one eye' length. So, that means their HEADS area also proportionally LARGE.
Thing with the male models is IF they have the EYE AREA going on, they also have the BROW covering over that going on too and most likely the UNDER EYE bone support to orbital rim and the HIGH cheek bone area. It's ALL in the EYES; the SOCKETS. That's what male models (females too) that can NEVER be reproduced with plastic or bone surgery.
The docs appeal to guys who want that stuff to look more 'like a model' but they NEVER tell them straight on that they WILL NOT look like a male model (unless they start out with the EYES and only need some jaw or chin work.) I've seen but ugly guys on real self asking the doctors how they can get 'this or that' like a male model and not one of them tell them that they will NEVER get the look of the model. They just try to sell them on their services.
Here is EXAMPLE: Guy on RealSelf asks the doctors 'how to get cheeks like a MODEL'.
NONE of them break it to him that he has NO CHANCE of EVER looking remotely like a male model whether or not he gets cheek augmentation 'like the models have'.
https://www.realself.com/question/chiseled-and-hollow-cheeks-like-male-model#media-question-657613-image-156365
ETA: This is not the actual guy asking the question. It's someone using other people's photos. But just goes to show, none of the doctor responses told the guy straight out, no way he's going to look anything like a model.
I know its sickening how friggin immoral those docs are. I mean sickening. I have had certain docs for e.g. Arnett tell me things in a very honest way saying listen this is the truth. And also oddly some Korean docs I consulted with were like you don't want to to go there it will bring you only sorrow.
Anyway, I'm just waiting for like some advancements in technology. No point my posting about these hopes here.
Foreveralone dude YOU f**kING MORON WHY THE f**k ARE YOU FOREVER ALONE DUDE IF YOU DON"T WANT DATING ADVICE!!!???? ARE YOU AUTISTIC!!!!!????????
AND WHY DO YOU WANT TO ALL THIS RADICAL SURGERY IF YOU CAN FIND AN ATTRACTIVE LIFE PARTNER ON YOUR OWN WITHOUT THE ADVICE OF OTHER PEOPLE? GIVE ME A BREAK BRAH!!!!
Check yourself!
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Most doctor on realself sound like they're trying sell people on their services, rather than being more honest. I do sometimes come across some doctors who give honest comments. Those are seldom though.
Best comment I found was from this guy -
"You are normal, not weird. Your chin is not weak. Your jawline and neck are normal. The societal pressure to try to live up to some "ideal" is intense and unfair. I'm concerned that websites like this might be making it worse. I can see that you have gotten some horrible advice from other doctors here. Shame on them. "
Foreveralonedude will be forever alone if he doesn't work on improving himself internally before fixing whatever hideous defects he thinks he has.
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Most doctor on realself sound like they're trying sell people on their services, rather than being more honest. I do sometimes come across some doctors who give honest comments. Those are seldom though.
Best comment I found was from this guy -
"You are normal, not weird. Your chin is not weak. Your jawline and neck are normal. The societal pressure to try to live up to some "ideal" is intense and unfair. I'm concerned that websites like this might be making it worse. I can see that you have gotten some horrible advice from other doctors here. Shame on them. "
Foreveralonedude will be forever alone if he doesn't work on improving himself internally before fixing whatever hideous defects he thinks he has.
I saw that on RS. Most of the doctors on there are on AUTO-PILOT where a LOT of them just copy and paste the SAME (boiler plate) content for multiple questions and repeatedly do that just so their NAMES are recognized.
Here's the link to the RS post: https://www.realself.com/question/wilmington-nc-weak-chin-definition-jawline
The OTHER doctors who gave responses are examples of the auto-pilot boiler plate ones that frequently 'answer' the questions.
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Most doctor on realself sound like they're trying sell people on their services, rather than being more honest. I do sometimes come across some doctors who give honest comments. Those are seldom though.
Best comment I found was from this guy -
"You are normal, not weird. Your chin is not weak. Your jawline and neck are normal. The societal pressure to try to live up to some "ideal" is intense and unfair. I'm concerned that websites like this might be making it worse. I can see that you have gotten some horrible advice from other doctors here. Shame on them. "
Foreveralonedude will be forever alone if he doesn't work on improving himself internally before fixing whatever hideous defects he thinks he has.
I didn't say I'm not doing everything I can non surgically.
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Kavan is spot on about eyes. They don't call eyes "the windows to the soul" for nothing.
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I've seen some eye area surgery results that were very impressive, one in particular I'm not allowed to share. I'd say getting to, or near, a male model type eye area is a lot more doable than some people here think.
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I've seen some eye area surgery results that were very impressive, one in particular I'm not allowed to share. I'd say getting to, or near, a male model type eye area is a lot more doable than some people here think.
Okay, you can't share the person who had the surgery but you can share the names of the exact procedures and the exact name of the doctor and what procedure or procedures were done. Right? Or else you can f**k the hell right off.
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Okay, you can't share the person who had the surgery but you can share the names of the exact procedures and the exact name of the doctor and what procedure or procedures were done. Right? Or else you can f**k the hell right off.
Taban, it was a combination of various procedures.
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If you are looking for a biological solution, then cheek implants by rib cartilage grafts may be the best choice for you.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/psi/2015/849802/
Dr. Wolfe: "My experience is that whatever kind of bone it is, when you place it as an onlay graft in the chin you can expect a tremendous amount of resorption, up to 100%."
So even if it is possible to grow bones from your own cells, this (resorption) could be a problem as the bone needs some function in order not to resorb.
Dr. Wolfe: "If you place a bone graft as an interpositional graft in lengthening the chin, which in this particular case
you don’t want to do, very little is absorbed."
-"If you want to use autologous tissue as a chin implant, costal cartilage doesn’t resorb the way a bone graft will."
https://watermark.silverchair.com/19-2-141.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAaYwggGiBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggGTMIIBjwIBADCCAYgGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMF1tELU8yp3f3T1PlAgEQgIIBWeEKvZrqASe5v5XmWOF551wmAFp4BgyxLicWGMK_AQIwvbrCeguPSDL8Q0J-YJEaTiLR7_1QFxvP6AOhxFI_Ci14RKXBtvQK_wpircSSl5evrN478WPcvo6EL1mpmJ4ShmtnbIZWMhobG-3xZpQBc04ZQTBuKMs7OC0gDa0im8D3CMp5zv9kP9Rv4v7MWHpqBJmTf0AX4aTAorK1Yg7ZWrbYryW4ZqlI50chq6oyb95ernyxc6B3QKv3sFpDSY_hgKSujBMaueyhU99HoDSn4lJNglo5PCQsw2EOqHgVdcWvwbWQK4POtalz9PpYF6vcjEMnpyLMCSMhPcy_81XdcDDzUVFlRyNWkunmQa9Tg-bsKjsRzBFgAW0wIDd3I4Pj4toFbj8uLTQ_-m-hFphePngpC8k_9S27M2Emk6iWzoURzNYZtlyzeZ091QB5io6ZNXVLzNqTKKUliA
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If you are looking for a biological solution, then cheek implants by rib cartilage grafts may be the best choice for you.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/psi/2015/849802/
Dr. Wolfe: "My experience is that whatever kind of bone it is, when you place it as an onlay graft in the chin you can expect a tremendous amount of resorption, up to 100%."
So even if it is possible to grow bones from your own cells, this (resorption) could be a problem as the bone needs some function in order not to resorb.
Dr. Wolfe: "If you place a bone graft as an interpositional graft in lengthening the chin, which in this particular case
you don’t want to do, very little is absorbed."
-"If you want to use autologous tissue as a chin implant, costal cartilage doesn’t resorb the way a bone graft will."
https://watermark.silverchair.com/19-2-141.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAaYwggGiBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggGTMIIBjwIBADCCAYgGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMF1tELU8yp3f3T1PlAgEQgIIBWeEKvZrqASe5v5XmWOF551wmAFp4BgyxLicWGMK_AQIwvbrCeguPSDL8Q0J-YJEaTiLR7_1QFxvP6AOhxFI_Ci14RKXBtvQK_wpircSSl5evrN478WPcvo6EL1mpmJ4ShmtnbIZWMhobG-3xZpQBc04ZQTBuKMs7OC0gDa0im8D3CMp5zv9kP9Rv4v7MWHpqBJmTf0AX4aTAorK1Yg7ZWrbYryW4ZqlI50chq6oyb95ernyxc6B3QKv3sFpDSY_hgKSujBMaueyhU99HoDSn4lJNglo5PCQsw2EOqHgVdcWvwbWQK4POtalz9PpYF6vcjEMnpyLMCSMhPcy_81XdcDDzUVFlRyNWkunmQa9Tg-bsKjsRzBFgAW0wIDd3I4Pj4toFbj8uLTQ_-m-hFphePngpC8k_9S27M2Emk6iWzoURzNYZtlyzeZ091QB5io6ZNXVLzNqTKKUliA
No if they synthesize jaw bone it will work perfectly. But whatever. I think right now only doing a double ZSO plust malar osteotomy/mfl3 is the best bet.
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If you are looking for a biological solution, then cheek implants by rib cartilage grafts may be the best choice for you.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/psi/2015/849802/
Dr. Wolfe: "My experience is that whatever kind of bone it is, when you place it as an onlay graft in the chin you can expect a tremendous amount of resorption, up to 100%."
So even if it is possible to grow bones from your own cells, this (resorption) could be a problem as the bone needs some function in order not to resorb.
Dr. Wolfe: "If you place a bone graft as an interpositional graft in lengthening the chin, which in this particular case
you don’t want to do, very little is absorbed."
-"If you want to use autologous tissue as a chin implant, costal cartilage doesn’t resorb the way a bone graft will."
https://watermark.silverchair.com/19-2-141.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAaYwggGiBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggGTMIIBjwIBADCCAYgGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMF1tELU8yp3f3T1PlAgEQgIIBWeEKvZrqASe5v5XmWOF551wmAFp4BgyxLicWGMK_AQIwvbrCeguPSDL8Q0J-YJEaTiLR7_1QFxvP6AOhxFI_Ci14RKXBtvQK_wpircSSl5evrN478WPcvo6EL1mpmJ4ShmtnbIZWMhobG-3xZpQBc04ZQTBuKMs7OC0gDa0im8D3CMp5zv9kP9Rv4v7MWHpqBJmTf0AX4aTAorK1Yg7ZWrbYryW4ZqlI50chq6oyb95ernyxc6B3QKv3sFpDSY_hgKSujBMaueyhU99HoDSn4lJNglo5PCQsw2EOqHgVdcWvwbWQK4POtalz9PpYF6vcjEMnpyLMCSMhPcy_81XdcDDzUVFlRyNWkunmQa9Tg-bsKjsRzBFgAW0wIDd3I4Pj4toFbj8uLTQ_-m-hFphePngpC8k_9S27M2Emk6iWzoURzNYZtlyzeZ091QB5io6ZNXVLzNqTKKUliA
Although the link you gave says 'time out' to me when I try to look at it, the rest of what you mentioned makes sense to me. To the best of my knowledge it has to be a bone SANDWICH where the graft is smack between cut bone surfaces where the bone surfaces have blood supply;inter-positional graft. If a bone graft if just sitting there on top of something like an implant does and is not sandwiched in, then it will resorb.
Between a bone cut as a BUTTRESS to the 2 sections left from the bone cut. But not as an overlay.
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No if they synthesize jaw bone it will work perfectly. But whatever. I think right now only doing a double ZSO plust malar osteotomy/mfl3 is the best bet.
If it's synthesized, (bone matter with no blood supply in it) then I don't see how it would differ much from hydroxyappetite which is very close to human bone. Like why not just get an implant fabricated from hydroxyappatite. What about using coral calcium (sea coral) that's very close to human bone for that matter. Anyway, what Wolf says is true. If it's your own bone, it's gotta be a bone sandwich; stuck between your own CUT bone. I realize the assumption with what Wolf said is that your own bone is that with a blood supply and can't just sit there on top of something without resorbing. But since your synthesized bone would also probably not have a blood supply and would probably be for all intents and purposes 'dead' (or not alive), why not consider fabrication with another bio-compatible material that's pretty close to bone.
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OK back to this. Epibone says: [The technology at the heart of EpiBone is the bioreactor. Its task is essential and delicate: to mimic the finely calibrated conditions in the human body that enable bone to grow. Strong, living tissue can only form where the nourishment, temperature, movement, and pressure are just right. Our proprietary bioreactor technology is the product of 20 years of fundamental research and experience with orthopedic tissue engineering. Research has shown that cultivating human stem cells in an osteogenic scaffold in a bioreactor supports critical outcomes, including cell survival, differentiation, and maturation and deposition of bone matrix. This approach also restricts the development of unwanted cell lines. Bones that grow in a well designed bioreactor are ready to continue remodeling and vascularization once they’re transplanted into a patient. In the EpiBone bioreactor, we can grow a new, personalized bone in just three weeks.]
Now as far as VASCULARIZATION is concerned, vascularized bone does need to be between a bone cut as in a bone sandwich. Just not so sure these implants used as face bone overlays would stay there without resorbing....and what about the 'remodeling'. What if they remodel themselves to something you don't want on your face. Like what if they start growing bone spurs.
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OK back to this. Epibone says: [The technology at the heart of EpiBone is the bioreactor. Its task is essential and delicate: to mimic the finely calibrated conditions in the human body that enable bone to grow. Strong, living tissue can only form where the nourishment, temperature, movement, and pressure are just right. Our proprietary bioreactor technology is the product of 20 years of fundamental research and experience with orthopedic tissue engineering. Research has shown that cultivating human stem cells in an osteogenic scaffold in a bioreactor supports critical outcomes, including cell survival, differentiation, and maturation and deposition of bone matrix. This approach also restricts the development of unwanted cell lines. Bones that grow in a well designed bioreactor are ready to continue remodeling and vascularization once they’re transplanted into a patient. In the EpiBone bioreactor, we can grow a new, personalized bone in just three weeks.]
Now as far as VASCULARIZATION is concerned, vascularized bone does need to be between a bone cut as in a bone sandwich. Just not so sure these implants used as face bone overlays would stay there without resorbing....and what about the 'remodeling'. What if they remodel themselves to something you don't want on your face. Like what if they start growing bone spurs.
Okay, I understand what we don't want. But it seems that if Epibone can do this that these would be the perfect graft. Hell they'd be fine even as Interpositional grafts. I'm good with that. Coral and HA from what I can see look f**king artificial as hell. I mean what that freak Dr. Sailer does is slide in lypoholized cartilage (dead people's cartilage) into peoples faces by making an empty socket and slipping it in. That guy certainly creates some dramatic looking results but I don't think it really works.
Anyway, how can Epibone predict their product will produce bone like this in 3 weeks. I mean hvae they done it? Or are they just like, in our ideal world our bioreacter will do that???? I'm assuming its the second, but then that just sounds like f**king wishful thinking.
I feel if Epibone can grow you a personalized bone graft (for interposition OR onlay) then it will work well for cosmetic surgery. Right? Am I right?
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Okay, I understand what we don't want. But it seems that if Epibone can do this that these would be the perfect graft. Hell they'd be fine even as Interpositional grafts. I'm good with that. Coral and HA from what I can see look f**king artificial as hell. I mean what that freak Dr. Sailer does is slide in lypoholized cartilage (dead people's cartilage) into peoples faces by making an empty socket and slipping it in. That guy certainly creates some dramatic looking results but I don't think it really works.
Anyway, how can Epibone predict their product will produce bone like this in 3 weeks. I mean hvae they done it? Or are they just like, in our ideal world our bioreacter will do that???? I'm assuming its the second, but then that just sounds like f**king wishful thinking.
I feel if Epibone can grow you a personalized bone graft (for interposition OR onlay) then it will work well for cosmetic surgery. Right? Am I right?
Well, I tend to think it would not work as an onlay, re what Wolfe said. Interposition sandwich it could work like for one of those 'chin wings' where the mandible is sliced, dropped and the hip bone is sandwiched in there or a genio that needs a bone butress between the cut sections.
I don't keep tabs on Epibone. They are looking for venture capital investors. Dead people's cartilage is standard use in plastic surgery coral ha looks OK but it's limited to about less than 3mm augmentation onlay. It can look bad when docs try to EXCEED that. Also good for filling in dents and dingies.
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Well, I tend to think it would not work as an onlay, re what Wolfe said. Interposition sandwich it could work like for one of those 'chin wings' where the mandible is sliced, dropped and the hip bone is sandwiched in there or a genio that needs a bone butress between the cut sections.
I don't keep tabs on Epibone. They are looking for venture capital investors. Dead people's cartilage is standard use in plastic surgery coral ha looks OK but it's limited to about less than 3mm augmentation onlay. It can look bad when docs try to EXCEED that. Also good for filling in dents and dingies.
yeah so basiclaly nothing. I think good docs know how to augment cheekbones with zygomatic sandwich osteotomy but i wonder why results are so inconsistent.
guys the thing is maybe you may not have enough "bulk" that pic of the guy who got buolk to his mandible and stuff with implants looks amazing. I just don't want synthetic implants. So ho hum waiting for someone to give us some visibles on this s**t.
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So you go to any f**king PS or max fac or realself sight and research cheekbone augmentation or zygoma, malar etc. (without implants) and all you get is f**king radio silence.
I've seen one mention of Dr. Anthony S Wolfe. Dr. Sinn was unheard of till what's his name found him and even then b*tches he was the first guy to ever get that surgery --it was the first one Dr. SInn did and just sort of made up how to do it.
So what I'm saying is, except for the dude who get ZSO in Berlin (which by the way do f**k all for your cheekbones or your orbital rims so basically are useless) --NO BODY DOES ANYTHING IN A REGULAR PREDICTIBLE FASHION FOR CHEEKBONES. SO WE"RE f**kED. NOBODY FIXES THIS s**t. What I mean to say is there's no expertise in it either and so nobody does anythign regularly. I doubt Wolfe has done more than a handful. And guess what, Sinn has done only 2.
So why the f**k are you haters still believing this procedure is something that is possible or done????
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I think we should be grateful for what is possible today, even if it is not optimal. Kavan mentioned the chin wing operation in one of his comments earlier. For example, the first chin wing was first introduced less than 10 years ago and has now become established. I am grateful for this new invention. As far as the cheekbones are concerned, I just wanted to point out that costal cartilage may have the lowest risk of resorption of all autologous bone materials. In order to get more facial width and more pronounced cheekbones I would recommend two zso, for the orbital rim fat is the best option. For my part, I will not wait what the future holds for me, because afterwards you are only disappointed. LIFE IS NOW.
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I think we should be grateful for what is possible today, even if it is not optimal. Kavan mentioned the chin wing operation in one of his comments earlier. For example, the first chin wing was first introduced less than 10 years ago and has now become established. I am grateful for this new invention. As far as the cheekbones are concerned, I just wanted to point out that costal cartilage may have the lowest risk of resorption of all autologous bone materials. In order to get more facial width and more pronounced cheekbones I would recommend two zso, for the orbital rim fat is the best option. For my part, I will not wait what the future holds for me, because afterwards you are only disappointed. LIFE IS NOW.
Yeah life is totally s**t now.
Honestly, I don't think the ZSO does s**t for cheekbones. Maybe just augments the width a little but I don't know, haven't seen enough results. Every person I know who has looked at Zarrinibal's before and afters says they're s**t. Can't see any difference.
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So you go to any f**king PS or max fac or realself sight and research cheekbone augmentation or zygoma, malar etc. (without implants) and all you get is f**king radio silence.
I've seen one mention of Dr. Anthony S Wolfe. Dr. Sinn was unheard of till what's his name found him and even then b*tches he was the first guy to ever get that surgery --it was the first one Dr. SInn did and just sort of made up how to do it.
So what I'm saying is, except for the dude who get ZSO in Berlin (which by the way do f**k all for your cheekbones or your orbital rims so basically are useless) --NO BODY DOES ANYTHING IN A REGULAR PREDICTIBLE FASHION FOR CHEEKBONES. SO WE"RE f**kED. NOBODY FIXES THIS s**t. What I mean to say is there's no expertise in it either and so nobody does anythign regularly. I doubt Wolfe has done more than a handful. And guess what, Sinn has done only 2.
So why the f**k are you haters still believing this procedure is something that is possible or done????
Lazlo,
No consistency in an outcome ie. the OUTPUT can be expected when the INPUT varies greatly from individual to individual.
Think very very basic scientific high school chemistry experiment. For everyone to get the SAME result; such that the OUTCOMES of the experiment are CONSISTANT, the same chemicals, amount of them, mixture of them, time on bunson burner etc have to be used.
In terms of very very basic scientific thought, one would not even EXPECT 'consistency' regarding the aesthetic outcomes of different individuals getting the same aesthetic procedure where the inputs had so much variance. The expectation would be INCONSISTENCY.
The output (results) would be 'inconsistent' because the input (start point) will vary from person to person. In terms of VARIANCE of facial bone structure, EXTERNAL facial bones that also make up part of the INTERNAL eye orbit vary the MOST and BECAUSE external facial structure is CONTINGENT on the growth direction going on in the INTERNAL orbit, one can't expect 'consistency' regarding an external aesthetic result. Since the zygomatic bone is part of the INTERNAL eye orbit, it's EXTERNAL orientation will be a FUNCTION of it's INTERNAL orientation. Not only that, it's connected to other facial bones in the internal orbit, eg. maxilla, frontal where the maxilla is is the most complex facial bone in terms of shape and also shape variance from person to person.
In a bone cutting cheek procedure or even one with implants the displacements will be made to the EXTERNAL part of the bone. So, the changes you see with the procedure will be relative to the INTERNAL eye socket; the bone orientation within. If the bone growth directions and orientation within the INTERNAL eye socket 'are what they are', the EXTERNAL outcome will be 'what it is'.
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Lazlo,
No consistency in an outcome ie. the OUTPUT can be expected when the INPUT varies greatly from individual to individual.
Think very very basic scientific high school chemistry experiment. For everyone to get the SAME result; such that the OUTCOMES of the experiment are CONSISTANT, the same chemicals, amount of them, mixture of them, time on bunson burner etc have to be used.
In terms of very very basic scientific thought, one would not even EXPECT 'consistency' regarding the aesthetic outcomes of different individuals getting the same aesthetic procedure where the inputs had so much variance. The expectation would be INCONSISTENCY.
The output (results) would be 'inconsistent' because the input (start point) will vary from person to person. In terms of VARIANCE of facial bone structure, EXTERNAL facial bones that also make up part of the INTERNAL eye orbit vary the MOST and BECAUSE external facial structure is CONTINGENT on the growth direction going on in the INTERNAL orbit, one can't expect 'consistency' regarding an external aesthetic result. Since the zygomatic bone is part of the INTERNAL eye orbit, it's EXTERNAL orientation will be a FUNCTION of it's INTERNAL orientation. Not only that, it's connected to other facial bones in the internal orbit, eg. maxilla, frontal where the maxilla is is the most complex facial bone in terms of shape and also shape variance from person to person.
In a bone cutting cheek procedure or even one with implants the displacements will be made to the EXTERNAL part of the bone. So, the changes you see with the procedure will be relative to the INTERNAL eye socket; the bone orientation within. If the bone growth directions and orientation within the INTERNAL eye socket 'are what they are', the EXTERNAL outcome will be 'what it is'.
Yes but even factoring for the inconsistency of the inputs the results of ZSO's are underwhelming. Every result I've seen and I've seen several now, have provided minimal change.
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this chap got lateral growth all over from his MARPE
(https://i.imgur.com/i5v5UVF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/G0kflP5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1vsO4fa.jpg)
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Yes but even factoring for the inconsistency of the inputs the results of ZSO's are underwhelming. Every result I've seen and I've seen several now, have provided minimal change.
It's hard to compensate for the bone growth orientation of the INTERNAL ORBIT when it's actually the orientation in THERE that people try to compensate for via surgeries to the outer orbit or peri-orbital area such as the cheek bones. So, no surprise to me that a lot of these types of surgeries don't give an impressive 'WOW!' factor.
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this chap got lateral growth all over from his MARPE
(https://i.imgur.com/i5v5UVF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/G0kflP5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1vsO4fa.jpg)
This makes me want to break down and cry. This is what i should have gotten instead of bloody extractions. That's basically what ruined my life.
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this chap got lateral growth all over from his MARPE
(https://i.imgur.com/i5v5UVF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/G0kflP5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1vsO4fa.jpg)
f**k it even caused amazing forward facial growth. I was supposed to have that f**king bastards.
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It's hard to compensate for the bone growth orientation of the INTERNAL ORBIT when it's actually the orientation in THERE that people try to compensate for via surgeries to the outer orbit or peri-orbital area such as the cheek bones. So, no surprise to me that a lot of these types of surgeries don't give an impressive 'WOW!' factor.
Could you explain this a little further please. Are you basically saying that the problem is the distance between the orbits i.e. that the person needs to widen the orbits via something like orbital box surgery before they can really see a solid result?
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Could you explain this a little further please. Are you basically saying that the problem is the distance between the orbits i.e. that the person needs to widen the orbits via something like orbital box surgery before they can really see a solid result?
No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it's hard to compensate for structure when the outside structure is contingent on the orientation of the inner orbits.
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No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it's hard to compensate for structure when the outside structure is contingent on the orientation of the inner orbits.
so what's the fix?
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so what's the fix?
Looks promising:
- "With CG Bio’s product, patients can feel reassured that their implants are as close as possible to natural bone, and that they won’t likely have any complications that can make their condition worse."
- "Unlike polymers or metals, BGS-7 bonds directly with bones when transplanted into a human body, and creates stronger bonds with bones than other bioceramics. It also has minimal risk of side effects or complications, and won’t be rejected by the body after reconstructive surgery."
https://3dprint.com/210215/cg-bio-3d-printed-cheekbones/
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- "CG Bio gets safety certification for 3D printed cheekbones
Korean 3D bio-printing expert CG Bio has received certification from the country’s Ministry of Food and Drug Safety to market its 3D printed cheekbone implants. The cheekbones are fabricated using 3D printing and BGS-7, a bioactive glass material developed and patented by CG Bio.
BGS-7 offers huge advantages over conventional metal or polymer-based materials, as it is compatible with organic tissue, and can form bonds with bone. The strong bonds that it forms minimize side effects or complications after reconstructive surgeries, without any foreign body reaction.
CG Bio makes use of locally-sourced materials at every stage of the manufacturing process.
''It is Korea’s first-ever 3D printing system using bioceramics that are (the) most bone-friendly. We will keep developing our technologies to apply the product to various bone losses,'' said Yoo Hyun-seung, CEO of CG Bio."
https://www.3ders.org/articles/20180410-news-roundup-cg-bios-3d-printed-cheekbones-cellink-dws-systems-hp-massivits-3d-printed-ski-boot-post-process.html
Can someone with academic access please look for scientific studies on this material?
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- "CG Bio gets safety certification for 3D printed cheekbones
Korean 3D bio-printing expert CG Bio has received certification from the country’s Ministry of Food and Drug Safety to market its 3D printed cheekbone implants. The cheekbones are fabricated using 3D printing and BGS-7, a bioactive glass material developed and patented by CG Bio.
BGS-7 offers huge advantages over conventional metal or polymer-based materials, as it is compatible with organic tissue, and can form bonds with bone. The strong bonds that it forms minimize side effects or complications after reconstructive surgeries, without any foreign body reaction.
CG Bio makes use of locally-sourced materials at every stage of the manufacturing process.
''It is Korea’s first-ever 3D printing system using bioceramics that are (the) most bone-friendly. We will keep developing our technologies to apply the product to various bone losses,'' said Yoo Hyun-seung, CEO of CG Bio."
https://www.3ders.org/articles/20180410-news-roundup-cg-bios-3d-printed-cheekbones-cellink-dws-systems-hp-massivits-3d-printed-ski-boot-post-process.html
Can someone with academic access please look for scientific studies on this material?
Sure this is interesting info. Shows new techs are doing things. But come on, this is just another HA type bulls**t. I'm asking about biological regeneration. I wouldn't even though this s**t unless there was a biological version.
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Dr. Sinn was unheard of till what's his name found him and even then b*tches he was the first guy to ever get that surgery --it was the first one Dr. SInn did and just sort of made up how to do it.
What I mean to say is there's no expertise in it either and so nobody does anythign regularly. I doubt Wolfe has done more than a handful. And guess what, Sinn has done only 2.
So why the f**k are you haters still believing this procedure is something that is possible or done????
You claim dr. Sinn invented this operation and did it only twice? ???
Sinn's surgery is too weak. Only causes a bit of enhancement to the orbital rim, doesn nothing for the cheekbones or anything else. Doesn't even address the side.
Sinn's modified lefort 3 is borderline useless.
But there is literally NO solution right now. Let's say you get sinn's MFL3 plus 2 ZSO's you're still like just borderline better. No one has shown pics to prove differently.
And what about the Obwegeser girl?
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You claim dr. Sinn invented this operation and did it only twice? ???
Maybe Lazlo got sloppy seconds.
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so what's the fix?
Lowered expectations.
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There is an interesting statement from Eppley regarding the LeFort III Osteotomy:
https://www.eppleyplasticsurgery.com/lefort-iii-osteotomy/
I can't help feeling we're going around in circles.
Since no biological facial implants are currently available, osteotomies remain the only option (in order to stay "natural"). My personal favorite is the ZSO (because it is done regularly and reliably by some surgeons).
In case someone thinks otherwise, do not hesitate to contact Dr. Wolfe or Dr. Obwegeser and convince me of the opposite.
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There is an interesting statement from Eppley regarding the LeFort III Osteotomy:
https://www.eppleyplasticsurgery.com/lefort-iii-osteotomy/
I can't help feeling we're going around in circles.
Since no biological facial implants are currently available, osteotomies remain the only option (in order to stay "natural"). My personal favorite is the ZSO (because it is done regularly and reliably by some surgeons).
In case someone thinks otherwise, do not hesitate to contact Dr. Wolfe or Dr. Obwegeser and convince me of the opposite.
What's 'interesting' (at least to me) about Eppley's blog entry is that the person asking a question to him, QUOTES somewhat of a STUPID statement. (I Googled where the statement appeared elsewhere. It came from 'Slut Hate' forums and associated with a '3D facial analysis' poster.) The stupid statement contends that recession of the orbital rims also 'means' the eyeballs themselves are recessed and a Lefort3 'pushes the eyeballs forward'.
So Eppley clarifies the basic concept, the most salient of it being that L3 corrects BULGING eyes by bringing the bone structure forward and NOT the eyeballs themselves. Although the person asking the question via PROXY of a STUPID quote, may not know (not knowing something is OK) the eyeballs are FIXED in place, the stupidity in the quoted statement is in the assumption that a procedure aimed at CORRECTING the look of BULGING eyes ALSO projects the eyeballs FORWARD.
Although he points out the L3 procedure isn't as 'simple and clean as shown in a diagram', there are many people (usually 'cross pollinators' from similar site the dumb quote was pulled from) who DON'T even LOOK at the L3 diagram to observe the ENTIRE area (or all the areas) it brings forward, eg. those wanting the ENTIRE L3 just to bring forward only one area it brings forward but not needing the other areas it brings forward.
https://entokey.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/S07_fig6_2.jpg
As to your other question: '...what about the Obwegeser girl?', I think she got the whole L3. Although she was not as syndromatic as others who get the whole L3, ALL the areas of her face that had recession were in the area the L3 addresses. IMO, she had a NICE inherent SHAPE to her bone structure at the L3 area. The only problem with it was it was backwards.
As you know, a modified L3 is not the 'whole' L3. It's quite possible that a modification of it that worked out well for one patient might not work out as well for another patient. Like any other bone cutting surgery, all it's doing is moving around someone's INHERENT structural shape. There are some people who have a nice inherent SHAPE to a part of their bone structure where the only thing (or most of the problem with it) is that it's TOO FAR backwards. So, it's going to work better on those who have the types of shapes that are going to look very good when brought forward or displaced in what ever way the procedure can displace them. That's a whole lot DIFFERENT than some who might need to have an area totally RE-SHAPED where the type of re-shaping that would enhance their aesthetic most isn't one a bone cut surgery is aimed at doing.
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Lowered expectations.
Haha.
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What's 'interesting' (at least to me) about Eppley's blog entry is that the person asking a question to him, QUOTES somewhat of a STUPID statement. (I Googled where the statement appeared elsewhere. It came from 'Slut Hate' forums and associated with a '3D facial analysis' poster.) The stupid statement contends that recession of the orbital rims also 'means' the eyeballs themselves are recessed and a Lefort3 'pushes the eyeballs forward'.
So Eppley clarifies the basic concept, the most salient of it being that L3 corrects BULGING eyes by bringing the bone structure forward and NOT the eyeballs themselves. Although the person asking the question via PROXY of a STUPID quote, may not know (not knowing something is OK) the eyeballs are FIXED in place, the stupidity in the quoted statement is in the assumption that a procedure aimed at CORRECTING the look of BULGING eyes ALSO projects the eyeballs FORWARD.
Although he points out the L3 procedure isn't as 'simple and clean as shown in a diagram', there are many people (usually 'cross pollinators' from similar site the dumb quote was pulled from) who DON'T even LOOK at the L3 diagram to observe the ENTIRE area (or all the areas) it brings forward, eg. those wanting the ENTIRE L3 just to bring forward only one area it brings forward but not needing the other areas it brings forward.
https://entokey.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/S07_fig6_2.jpg
As to your other question: '...what about the Obwegeser girl?', I think she got the whole L3. Although she was not as syndromatic as others who get the whole L3, ALL the areas of her face that had recession were in the area the L3 addresses. IMO, she had a NICE inherent SHAPE to her bone structure at the L3 area. The only problem with it was it was backwards.
As you know, a modified L3 is not the 'whole' L3. It's quite possible that a modification of it that worked out well for one patient might not work out as well for another patient. Like any other bone cutting surgery, all it's doing is moving around someone's INHERENT structural shape. There are some people who have a nice inherent SHAPE to a part of their bone structure where the only thing (or most of the problem with it) is that it's TOO FAR backwards. So, it's going to work better on those who have the types of shapes that are going to look very good when brought forward or displaced in what ever way the procedure can displace them. That's a whole lot DIFFERENT than some who might need to have an area totally RE-SHAPED where the type of re-shaping that would enhance their aesthetic most isn't one a bone cut surgery is aimed at doing.
Yeah lol. I know the thing about the bulging eyes is retarded.
That's why I prefer to not say modifiled lefort 3 even though its become the parlance of this board. For me malar osteotomy or orbital rim and zygoma osteotomy specify exactly what you want advanced.
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Yeah lol. I know the thing about the bulging eyes is retarded.
That's why I prefer to not say modifiled lefort 3 even though its become the parlance of this board. For me malar osteotomy or orbital rim and zygoma osteotomy specify exactly what you want advanced.
Not a bad word preference.
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There is an interesting statement from Eppley regarding the LeFort III Osteotomy:
https://www.eppleyplasticsurgery.com/lefort-iii-osteotomy/
I can't help feeling we're going around in circles.
Since no biological facial implants are currently available, osteotomies remain the only option (in order to stay "natural"). My personal favorite is the ZSO (because it is done regularly and reliably by some surgeons).
In case someone thinks otherwise, do not hesitate to contact Dr. Wolfe or Dr. Obwegeser and convince me of the opposite.
Sigh I wish one day we can move eyeballs around too. I'm guessing even coming into contact with any nerves including optic nerves is catastrophic so moving nerves around etc isn't an option.
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The output (results) would be 'inconsistent' because the input (start point) will vary from person to person. In terms of VARIANCE of facial bone structure, EXTERNAL facial bones that also make up part of the INTERNAL eye orbit vary the MOST and BECAUSE external facial structure is CONTINGENT on the growth direction going on in the INTERNAL orbit, one can't expect 'consistency' regarding an external aesthetic result. Since the zygomatic bone is part of the INTERNAL eye orbit, it's EXTERNAL orientation will be a FUNCTION of it's INTERNAL orientation. Not only that, it's connected to other facial bones in the internal orbit, eg. maxilla, frontal where the maxilla is is the most complex facial bone in terms of shape and also shape variance from person to person.
In a bone cutting cheek procedure or even one with implants the displacements will be made to the EXTERNAL part of the bone. So, the changes you see with the procedure will be relative to the INTERNAL eye socket; the bone orientation within. If the bone growth directions and orientation within the INTERNAL eye socket 'are what they are', the EXTERNAL outcome will be 'what it is'.
Found an interesting youtube video that goes into some aspects of the eye orbit. I think he's a JSF and/or lookism follower, since I recognize a lot of the faces used as examples. The channel may be of value too: youtube.com/watch?v=9kH15-u_hnM
Because I really want cheek implants to be more viable options, I'll briefly play devils advocate to what seems the general consensus here on cheek implants. Albeit I'm still researching this as I have time, but if we're arguing implants look worse as you age, then why do old people also get facial implants and they look ok/normal? Implants maybe make you look better for longer since they provide additional scaffolding for the soft tissue as well. Are there any examples on the web we could examine showing people with anatomical implants looking worse with age? Anatomical implants are fairly recent advancements, so you wouldn't see many old people with that off-the-shelf design from an implant surgery from the 80s or 90s. Also, creating custom implants based on a CT scan model of your skull is also fairly new technology, no? I would imagine that modest sized, CT-scan customized facial implants, designed with facial aging in mind, would remain natural looking throughout ones life (except maybe when the skull really loses mass like age 50+). Easier said than done but maybe some doctors out there know how to achieve that outcome with custom implants. Maybe?
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Found an interesting youtube video that goes into some aspects of the eye orbit. I think he's a JSF and/or lookism follower, since I recognize a lot of the faces used as examples. The channel may be of value too: youtube.com/watch?v=9kH15-u_hnM
Because I really want cheek implants to be more viable options, I'll briefly play devils advocate to what seems the general consensus here on cheek implants. Albeit I'm still researching this as I have time, but if we're arguing implants look worse as you age, then why do old people also get facial implants and they look ok/normal? Implants maybe make you look better for longer since they provide additional scaffolding for the soft tissue as well. Are there any examples on the web we could examine showing people with anatomical implants looking worse with age? Anatomical implants are fairly recent advancements, so you wouldn't see many old people with that off-the-shelf design from an implant surgery from the 80s or 90s. Also, creating custom implants based on a CT scan model of your skull is also fairly new technology, no? I would imagine that modest sized, CT-scan customized facial implants, designed with facial aging in mind, would remain natural looking throughout ones life (except maybe when the skull really loses mass like age 50+). Easier said than done but maybe some doctors out there know how to achieve that outcome with custom implants. Maybe?
I think I might need a brain implant to address your question. I'm not sure how it relates to my statement you quoted.
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Yep that's what I get for rushing. Disregard the quote.
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Cheekbones are difficult to correctly assess, even in person. I have consulted with a few plastic surgeons and I have been told that I have good-great cheekbones. I strongly disagree. Cheekbones (like any bone really) are 3 dimensional so they should be looked at from every angle. From the front I appear to have hollow cheeks (because I'm skinny) but from the side and from the 3/4 angle there are a number of issues. 1. My cheekbones are very low. I think an important aspect of 'good' cheekbones is that they're relatively high. 2. They lack forward projection and width. 3. They're far too small in size.
Keys to 'good' cheekbones are shape (angular, flanged), height, size/robustness, and width.
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so it seems current best bet is a modified version of the lefort 3 with sinn, wolford, or obwegeser to fix the lateral issue??? and then probably silicone custom implant over the whole zygoma, malar, and infra zone if u need further lateral projection + horizontal. then just sit around and wait for epibone and xilloc .
zso results i saw in person on zarinbals laptop were.. meh. chin wings were quite impressive ill say that, but zso just added like a little bulge, really not life quality / value altering stuff =/ . so implants r gonna be necessary assuming ur issue isnt exclusively recession.
someone told me medpor cant even be used in custom zygo implants.. is this true??? i spoke to someone who had custom silicone ones placed in, 4mm was max projection of the implant, covered entire zygo area, malar, and infra i think, and wrapped around over the whole arch . he told me medpor is a no go when it comes to this, wanted to confirm. i assume titanium is no bueno too? someone in belgium does titanium implants but ive only seen it for mandible and chin. assuming this is all tru then yeah ill probably just suck it up and go full silicone and wait for bone.
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so it seems current best bet is a modified version of the lefort 3 with sinn, wolford, or obwegeser to fix the lateral issue??? and then probably silicone custom implant over the whole zygoma, malar, and infra zone if u need further lateral projection + horizontal. then just sit around and wait for epibone and xilloc .
zso results i saw in person on zarinbals laptop were.. meh. chin wings were quite impressive ill say that, but zso just added like a little bulge, really not life quality / value altering stuff =/ . so implants r gonna be necessary assuming ur issue isnt exclusively recession.
someone told me medpor cant even be used in custom zygo implants.. is this true??? i spoke to someone who had custom silicone ones placed in, 4mm was max projection of the implant, covered entire zygo area, malar, and infra i think, and wrapped around over the whole arch . he told me medpor is a no go when it comes to this, wanted to confirm. i assume titanium is no bueno too? someone in belgium does titanium implants but ive only seen it for mandible and chin. assuming this is all tru then yeah ill probably just suck it up and go full silicone and wait for bone.
i've heard its possible to get 2 ZSO's spaced out for more of a gain? But even one requires a bone graft from hip so does that mean you'd need another bone graft again? I suppose so.
The one result I once saw of Mommaerts' zygomatic sandwich osteotomy was awesome. But everyone says he's a quack and he's f**ked up several on this board so i guess he's a no go.
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i've heard its possible to get 2 ZSO's spaced out for more of a gain? But even one requires a bone graft from hip so does that mean you'd need another bone graft again? I suppose so.
The one result I once saw of Mommaerts' zygomatic sandwich osteotomy was awesome. But everyone says he's a quack and he's f**ked up several on this board so i guess he's a no go.
ya u can do 2 rounds of both zso and chin wing as per what dr z told me when i met with him, spaced out since nerves. and yeah i assume it would be the same, using bone from i think iliac crest as butress .
yeah its weird tbh, mommaerts used to be held in high regard then it felt like overnight his name became the "butcher of brussels " lmfao, and that was that. ive never met him or seen his work so cant comment.