jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: Lazlo on June 29, 2013, 10:19:01 PM
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But I think it takes a while to manifest, like if your family has been eating this way for generations. I've noticed villagers in India have incredible teeth and jawlines--they're farmers and eat very hearty non-processed foods, whereas all the rich middle class indians who live in the cities and eat tons of fried processed junk have shallow cheekbones, class 2, weak chins etc. etc.
http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/mental-or-dental (http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/mental-or-dental)
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apparently this butter oil stuff is supposed to be close to what our ancestors ate to give them wellformed jaws. I'm just going to eat a s**t of it to see if it at least helps in keeping what i have.
i ordered two bottles and they arrived recently. it's expensive as s**t and tastes a bit whack but i'm going to just od on it.
http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/ButterOil/ (http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/ButterOil/)
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Eh. what's done is done. I don't doubt that there's both a genetic and environmental contribution to facial development, and it's most definitely multifactorial.
When a face grows downward rather than forward it almost always seems to indicate some bad environmental factor imo. The more forward growing, the more healthy and attractive in almost every respect. But features that are unrelated to bone development (hair & skin quality) can make more of a difference than optimal bone growth so there is that.
examples of optimal forward growth
(http://www.schwarzkopf.com/content/dam/sk/de/home/styling/frisuren_trends/schnitte_frisuren/frisuren_klassiker/pferdeschwanz_210.jpg)
(http://www.hollywoodteenmovies.com/ActorProfileLeo.jpg)
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Eh. what's done is done. I don't doubt that there's both a genetic and environmental contribution to facial development, and it's most definitely multifactorial.
When a face grows downward rather than forward it almost always seems to indicate some bad environmental factor imo. The more forward growing, the more healthy and attractive in almost every respect. But features that are unrelated to bone development (hair & skin quality) can make more of a difference than optimal bone growth so there is that.
examples of optimal forward growth
(http://www.schwarzkopf.com/content/dam/sk/de/home/styling/frisuren_trends/schnitte_frisuren/frisuren_klassiker/pferdeschwanz_210.jpg)
(http://www.hollywoodteenmovies.com/ActorProfileLeo.jpg)
yeah baby, that's why i'm all about the lefort 2!!!
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yeah baby, that's why i'm all about the lefort 2!!!
lol.
lefort 2 is a step in the right direction. distraction osteogenesis is the future, 20-30 years from now when they have the precision down it will be pretty amazing. eventually there will be no ugly peoply, anyone who wants to modify themselves to be beautiful will be able to do so. Humans outsmarting biology.
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20 years for sure.
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20 years... needs to happen now goddamnit! >:(
if what scientists are saying is true about immortality being possible soon, I need to have kids. then they can live forever and, when the science comes around, reincarnate me so I can take advantage of always these scientific advancements ;D
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thinking about it tho, it's borderline creepy how a few mm of facial bone growth in a different direction can alter your life significantly
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20 years... needs to happen now goddamnit! >:(
if what scientists are saying is true about immortality being possible soon, I need to have kids. then they can live forever and, when the science comes around, reincarnate me so I can take advantage of always these scientific advancements ;D
it is interesting to think of the psychological implications. i don't think they'll actually be able to make anyone handsome in 20 years honestly. i mean there will be a lot more stuff for kids for sure. remember 50-70 percent of beauty is actually just youth. so if you're past 40 you ain't gonna look that great no matter what they do to your jaw etc..
i can't really see how they'll reverse aging though. i mean that would require really weird s**t like cloning skin and then having microsurgery to put you in a new skin envelope. I mean i suppose it's doable and really cost-prohibitive. But i bet there'd be weird tell tale signs of seeing like an 80 year old in a young man's body. like he'd still have really s**t breath or something or weird sunken in eyes.
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or maybe people will just look like this guy, i mean he's madonna's dermatologist and he's like 80. He didn't have a wide jaw before or smooth skin, he's constructed that s**t out of filler. I think he looks pretty good...........NOT!
He looks like a f**king FREAKSHOW and just think what he must look like naked.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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it is interesting to think of the psychological implications. i don't think they'll actually be able to make anyone handsome in 20 years honestly. i mean there will be a lot more stuff for kids for sure. remember 50-70 percent of beauty is actually just youth. so if you're past 40 you ain't gonna look that great no matter what they do to your jaw etc..
i can't really see how they'll reverse aging though. i mean that would require really weird s**t like cloning skin and then having microsurgery to put you in a new skin envelope. I mean i suppose it's doable and really cost-prohibitive. But i bet there'd be weird tell tale signs of seeing like an 80 year old in a young man's body. like he'd still have really s**t breath or something or weird sunken in eyes.
yeah there's 50 thousand factors you have to account for, we aren't even close to accounting for everything that makes us age... but if you're immortal then time isn't really an issue lol. and more importantly if you can get to the root cause of aging and halt that (I have no idea what that is I'm not a scientist, cell reproduction?), you may just be able to stop everything else. of course the wear of the environment over time will take it's toll and may require medication or something of some sort, but if your cells are kept in a constant state of 'youthfulness' then they are more prone to quicker healing. I'm just blowing smoke here, but theoretically it does seem possible to stop aging, it's a matter of addressing the root cause rather than trying to stop wrinkled skin, sunken in eyes, etc. which are all just a byproduct of the cells of course.
and if time isn't an issue, there's always the possibility of discovering reverse agin ;)
this is all optimistic thinking. I find God too preposterous to believe in, so the future of science provides more comfort to me
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Eh. what's done is done. I don't doubt that there's both a genetic and environmental contribution to facial development, and it's most definitely multifactorial.
When a face grows downward rather than forward it almost always seems to indicate some bad environmental factor imo. The more forward growing, the more healthy and attractive in almost every respect. But features that are unrelated to bone development (hair & skin quality) can make more of a difference than optimal bone growth so there is that.
examples of optimal forward growth
(http://www.schwarzkopf.com/content/dam/sk/de/home/styling/frisuren_trends/schnitte_frisuren/frisuren_klassiker/pferdeschwanz_210.jpg)
(http://www.hollywoodteenmovies.com/ActorProfileLeo.jpg)
this is why i have become super suspicious of appliances and orthodontic forces on the face on kids. it has to mess with their growth. it really is a shame how reckless orthos can be and parents remain completely ignorant. most teens who get braces probably don't even need them.
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this is why i have become super suspicious of appliances and orthodontic forces on the face on kids. it has to mess with their growth. it really is a shame how reckless orthos can be and parents remain completely ignorant. most teens who get braces probably don't even need them.
honestly I think we overstate the strength braces can have on development of the face. is there anything to suggest that they prevent forward development? Both my brothers had braces and came out unscathed.
I think a lot stronger a case can be made for unusual respiratory pattern being a cause, since it is so crucial & tied to overall health and development, it isn't surprising in the least that if it suffers, your whole development does.
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honestly I think we overstate the strength braces can have on development of the face. is there anything to suggest that they prevent forward development? Both my brothers had braces and came out unscathed.
I think a lot stronger a case can be made for unusual respiratory pattern being a cause, since it is so crucial & tied to overall health and development, it isn't surprising in the least that if it suffers, your whole development does.
i dont mean braces generally but there are a lot of tools and appliances - headgear for example which has a proven effect on jaw and facial growth. orthos are trained in jaw growth and orthodontic treatment is often designed with that issue in mind. not just about the teeth.
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I'm sorry, but there are plenty of tribes on nat geo that eat unprocessed food and don't have perfect teeth or jaws.
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I'm sorry, but there are plenty of tribes on nat geo that eat unprocessed food and don't have perfect teeth or jaws.
hehe yeah, i have noticed this too
you guys seem to be under-estimating the power of braces and other orthodontic appliances (helix, twin block, herbst, pendulum etc..) especially in kids since the facial bones are still soft and "weak", wrong/improper orthodontic treatment (during one's youth) can indeed worsen a dental skeletal malocclusion
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oh well it was worth a shot....
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hehe yeah, i have noticed this too
you guys seem to be under-estimating the power of braces and other orthodontic appliances (helix, twin block, herbst, pendulum etc..) especially in kids since the facial bones are still soft and "weak", wrong/improper orthodontic treatment (during one's youth) can indeed worsen a dental skeletal malocclusion
agreed. ive become highly suspicious of orthodontic work in general. very sketchy and potentially destructive. not worth the risk of undermining natural growth just for the sake of a stable bite. wow kid you have a great bite definitely worth messing up your face for life bro. thanks for the cash.
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agreed. ive become highly suspicious of orthodontic work in general. very sketchy and potentially destructive. not worth the risk of undermining natural growth just for the sake of a stable bite. wow kid you have a great bite definitely worth messing up your face for life bro. thanks for the cash.
True unfortunately.....legislation needs to be started to stop this.
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And we think we've got problems... :o
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2352052/Thinking-veneers--invisible-braces-Learn-horrifying-truth-cosmetic-dentists-think-again.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2352052/Thinking-veneers--invisible-braces-Learn-horrifying-truth-cosmetic-dentists-think-again.html)
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And we think we've got problems... :o
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2352052/Thinking-veneers--invisible-braces-Learn-horrifying-truth-cosmetic-dentists-think-again.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2352052/Thinking-veneers--invisible-braces-Learn-horrifying-truth-cosmetic-dentists-think-again.html)
the quacks are scattered all over the globe
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you know what the problem is man, while i absolutely agree with you. I wouldn't be able to mentally handle it. I've wasted a year of my life being obsessed by this and if I sued the doctor I would then have to invest time and money and most importantly mental energy which would cause even more mental suffering. My dad says he wants to sue our ortho but I just can't be involved in that.
It's also tricky. You have to get two other orthodontists to testify against your doctor. that what he did was wrong. and then your original ortho might have buddies who speak up from his side.
It's a horrible thing, but I feel like I just have to move on. My ortho lied to me. I asked him point blank: "are there any risks to this surgery, is there anything I should be aware of." etc. etc. And he
consistently responded NO NO NO in the most carefree and happy manner, he continued with saying. He just lied.
I know how you feel but this is why all these orthos and dentists get away with what they do.
And most times don't even come to find out the harm they do to patients.
I am thinking of hiring someone to do all the research and legwork to look into lawsuits and/or law/ practices changes.
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honestly I think we overstate the strength braces can have on development of the face. is there anything to suggest that they prevent forward development? Both my brothers had braces and came out unscathed.
I think a lot stronger a case can be made for unusual respiratory pattern being a cause, since it is so crucial & tied to overall health and development, it isn't surprising in the least that if it suffers, your whole development does.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202641 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202641)
Thus, headgear-generated orthopedic forces evoke bending of the zygomatic arch and stresses of the temporal articular eminence in vitro, suggesting the need to verify whether bone strain induces in vivo bone modeling and remodeling.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18004917 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18004917)
CONCLUSION:
Cervical headgear treatment in Class II correction is associated with a decreased facial convexity caused by the restriction of forward growth of the maxillary A-point, while the rest of the facial profile, including the mandible, continue to grow forward at a normal rate.
This one study was done 50 years ago:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0002941663900630 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0002941663900630)
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1. A posterior change in the position of the pterygomaxillary fissure was recorded.
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2. The anterior nasal spine revealed a smaller amount of movement in an anterior direction.
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3. A tipping of the anterior part of the palatal plane downward was evident.
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4. On the basis of the data presented, there is strong evidence to support the contention that headgear treatment during the age period studied can alter the interrelationship of the sphenoid bone to the other bones in the craniofacial complex. The change in relationship recorded was a slight clockwise rotation of the sphenoid bone, with an alteration of the facial growth pattern of the treated children.
This article seriously questions the previously held contention that orthodontic treatment influences only the dentoalveolar area of the face. Ample evidence is presented to indicate that during the growth period of a child orthodontic therapy may influence the future growth pattern of the entire craniofacial complex.
I have seen a lot of people go through orthodontics unscathed... even some you meet online that are worried it may have ruined their faces, but I have also seen impaired growth in a few (including my own) cases.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202641 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12202641)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18004917 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18004917)
This one study was done 50 years ago:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0002941663900630 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0002941663900630)
I have seen a lot of people go through orthodontics unscathed... even some you meet online that are worried it may have ruined their faces, but I have also seen impaired growth in a few (including my own) cases.
What orthodontic techniques in your opinion can impair growth? what areas is the growth impaired?
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I have seen a lot of people go through orthodontics unscathed... even some you meet online that are worried it may have ruined their faces, but I have also seen impaired growth in a few (including my own) cases.
it depends on how long you had braces, the appliances your ortho used, how aggressive or conservative he is. i had braces almost 10 years, subject to every orthodontic appliance known to man with the exception of headgear (THANK GOD) and i had no extractions. i know people who had full extractions AND headgear in the 70s and 80s. it definitely shows. most kids have braces 1-3 years with limited force. my ortho says all children should see an ortho before they are 8 to make sure their teeth are okay. not sure how sensible that is.
"oh yes you have crowding, let's pull 4...no..6..teeth."
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What orthodontic techniques in your opinion can impair growth? what areas is the growth impaired?
In my opinion, headgear, when you are applying outside force for an extending period of time. What areas depends on the type of headgear (cervical, high-pull, etc.) it also depends on how long it is applied for and what force is applied to the headgear. Most orthodontists will claim that headgear only holds the molars in place while the arch is brought back to close extraction spaces, but there is evidence that it can prevent forward growth of the maxilla (or even vertical growth if high pull headgear is used). This is where the tension at which the headgear is used comes into play, if too much tension is used it absolutely can modify growth.
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In my opinion, headgear, when you are applying outside force for an extending period of time. What areas depends on the type of headgear (cervical, high-pull, etc.) it also depends on how long it is applied for and what force is applied to the headgear. Most orthodontists will claim that headgear only holds the molars in place while the arch is brought back to close extraction spaces, but there is evidence that it can prevent forward growth of the maxilla (or even vertical growth if high pull headgear is used). This is where the tension at which the headgear is used comes into play, if too much tension is used it absolutely can modify growth.
maxilla is most important since it's growth is tied to the rest of the upper face. sad.
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This article seriously questions the previously held contention that orthodontic treatment influences only the dentoalveolar area of the face. Ample evidence is presented to indicate that during the growth period of a child orthodontic therapy may influence the future growth pattern of the entire craniofacial complex.
pretty f**king insane that 2 dentists or w/e noticed that 50 YEARS AGO and yet the same unorthodox techniques are still being used to this day
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pretty f**king insane that 2 dentists or w/e noticed that 50 YEARS AGO and yet the same unorthodox techniques are still being used to this day
imagine all the $$$ lost if bad medicine was dropped by the orthodontic community. orthodontic industry is mostly self-regulated and this is the end result.
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maybe someone with time should edit the wiki article since there is nothing on the controversy or risks of extractions.
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I'd like to believe that to be true, but honestly I'm not sure --or at least make orthodontists much more responsible and accountable. But frankly, most people get orthodontic work when they are young kids or teenagers and aren't as concerned with researching all the potential risks. And I don't think the inflation of people with bad orthodontic work will eventually trickle down to the mainstream population.
That said, a year and a half ago when I had my bicuspids extracted, there was maybe one or two posts about how extractions were controversial. Now there are dozens and dozens of entries, blogs, testimonies indicating how extractions have ruined people's faces and bites. So you never now. If all that had been on the web back then, I would never have permitted my orthodontist to extract my teeth.
I had teeth extracted back in 07. Went back to the dental practice where it happened last year with an article about tooth extractions and how they damage the facial structure and health of the person. The dentist seeing me mustve noticed the part where it mentioned the parents suing the dental practice.. He was really stuttery/nervous after reading the paper. I just KNEW something was up. Cant believe extractions are still happening to this day. It sickens me.
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I had teeth extracted back in 07. Went back to the dental practice where it happened last year with an article about tooth extractions and how they damage the facial structure and health of the person. The dentist seeing me mustve noticed the part where it mentioned the parents suing the dental practice.. He was really stuttery/nervous after reading the paper. I just KNEW something was up. Cant believe extractions are still happening to this day. It sickens me.
ERF, what are you going to do about your situation? By the way, did you experience the same things I have after extractions? The feeling of a much narrower space for the tongue, loss of support for lips, any sort of increased teeth sensitivity or gum recession? My lips always feel sort of "pursed" because they have less support, so they have become slimmer also.
I'm just wondering what types of potential solutions you've sought out....
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ERF, what are you going to do about your situation? By the way, did you experience the same things I have after extractions? The feeling of a much narrower space for the tongue, loss of support for lips, any sort of increased teeth sensitivity or gum recession? My lips always feel sort of "pursed" because they have less support, so they have become slimmer also.
I'm just wondering what types of potential solutions you've sought out....
I kind of went balls to the wall (desperation) and have been treated with an A.L.F appliance for the last several months. Im not sure if it will make my face and teeth grinding issues worse (as people here say it will not work) not sure what I'll do afterwards if it doesnt work.
I have a loss of lip support, midface has sunken in, dark circles under eyes, narrower palate (I think the teeth are tipped though so most of the time my tongue is on the upper palate) also have some jaw asymmetry which has made my masseters different sizes.
Also have pretty bad tooth wear from grinding at night, probably equivalent to an 80 year old no joke XD
Its a crime what they're doing :|
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Yes its extremely frustrating. My current treatment plan seems to be going well but my dentist hasnt gone into detail at all so im left in the dark. Will my soft tissue support get worse/better? will i relapse and teeth grind still? I dont even know if tooth extractions caused too much vertical growth. I think I'll consult with a surgeon and get a full analysis to see whats actually up.
i don't think you should obsess over it. nothing we can do. And you should know TONS of people have vertical growth and all sorts of facial deformities who have never ever had any kind of orthodontic work. Most people do not have the genes etc.. for the square jawed high-cheekboned adonis look. that's why models are so rare. so don't stress about it. I do think if certain jaw things were done at an early age (like distraction of the jaw or maxilla etc.. or expansion of arches) it could lead to a better aesthetic result as a teen/adult but those technologies didn't even exist 10 years ago and only very few even use them now.
i'd just focus on what you don't like aesthetically and find a surgeon who has done such operations. I don't know of any in your area.
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I had teeth extracted back in 07. Went back to the dental practice where it happened last year with an article about tooth extractions and how they damage the facial structure and health of the person. The dentist seeing me mustve noticed the part where it mentioned the parents suing the dental practice.. He was really stuttery/nervous after reading the paper. I just KNEW something was up. Cant believe extractions are still happening to this day. It sickens me.
What did the ortho have to say for himself when you showed him the article?
How did the lawsuit turn out for the people in the article?
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i don't think you should obsess over it. nothing we can do. And you should know TONS of people have vertical growth and all sorts of facial deformities who have never ever had any kind of orthodontic work. Most people do not have the genes etc.. for the square jawed high-cheekboned adonis look. that's why models are so rare. so don't stress about it. I do think if certain jaw things were done at an early age (like distraction of the jaw or maxilla etc.. or expansion of arches) it could lead to a better aesthetic result as a teen/adult but those technologies didn't even exist 10 years ago and only very few even use them now.
i'd just focus on what you don't like aesthetically and find a surgeon who has done such operations. I don't know of any in your area.
I know but im stressing over it because mine wasnt natural. I wasnt supposed to have dark circles under my eyes and a dished in midface. It makes me extremly angry, the person that extracted the teeth was probably well aware of the damage they were doing. It sickens me.
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I know but im stressing over it because mine wasnt natural. I wasnt supposed to have dark circles under my eyes and a dished in midface. It makes me extremly angry, the person that extracted the teeth was probably well aware of the damage they were doing. It sickens me.
I'm not sure about that, orthodontists are for the most part extremely stupid I've noticed. They basically are obsessed with making money and so rarely do any sort of research etc..
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I'm not sure about that, orthodontists are for the most part extremely stupid I've noticed. They basically are obsessed with making money and so rarely do any sort of research etc..
yea easy to assume malice but i would say most orthos aren't interested in new research, or if they are it must be aligned with what they have learned in dental school.
doctor's complex i guess. some are more open minded than others but in my interaction it just seems like they will dismiss grievances from the patient. the one ortho who was very understanding with me was young, probably graduated from ortho school only a few years ago. less stubborn than orthos who have been working for decades and are set in their ways.
i was in my orthodontic office awhile back and saw this kid maybe 12 or 13 with a completely retruded lower jaw, like all the way to his neck. and he was about to get his braces off, all smiling and happy. he has no idea. sad.
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i was in my orthodontic office awhile back and saw this kid maybe 12 or 13 with a completely retruded lower jaw, like all the way to his neck. and he was about to get his braces off, all smiling and happy. he has no idea. sad.
witnessed the same scenario years ago at my ortho's office as well
girl mid 20s with a ridiculous underbite and a gummy smile, very similar to this setup
(http://cdn.institutomaxilofacial.com/uploads/testimonial_photo/photo/330/nerea-cirugia-ortognatica-clase-3-3.jpg)
she was super happy that she was getting her braces off at her next appointment. I doubt that she is even aware of jaw surgery
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witnessed the same scenario years ago at my ortho's office as well
girl mid 20s with a ridiculous underbite and a gummy smile, very similar to this setup
(http://cdn.institutomaxilofacial.com/uploads/testimonial_photo/photo/330/nerea-cirugia-ortognatica-clase-3-3.jpg)
she was super happy that she was getting her braces off at her next appointment. I doubt that she is even aware of jaw surgery
come to think of it i had the gummy smile/open mouth/bleh situation after my million years of braces. although my ortho said i was a candidate for surgery from the get-go, but assured my parents braces would do most of the work and surgery would only treat my bite. ::) my family was swayed by the confidence of this ortho. anytime a doctor says "surgery" on a kid parents tend to be extra cautious and will probably accept alternative treatment.
there really is no excuse at this point. there is enough evidence to support a reformation of orthodontic treatment, but it may eat into the bottom line so we wont see it until more people become informed.
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I'm not sure about that, orthodontists are for the most part extremely stupid I've noticed. They basically are obsessed with making money and so rarely do any sort of research etc..
Traditional orthos seem to be yes. Functional orthos seem to know what they're talking about. Some will treat a patient non surgically (minor/moderate) and others will be reffered to a surgeon for surgery as they have an uncorrectable issue. Doesnt seem like they're scamming people for money to me.
Obviously my opinion is slightly biased since im wanting my treatment plan to work and anyone that says it wont I panic but deep down I genuinely think that functional orthos know what they are doing.
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yea easy to assume malice but i would say most orthos aren't interested in new research, or if they are it must be aligned with what they have learned in dental school.
doctor's complex i guess. some are more open minded than others but in my interaction it just seems like they will dismiss grievances from the patient. the one ortho who was very understanding with me was young, probably graduated from ortho school only a few years ago. less stubborn than orthos who have been working for decades and are set in their ways.
i was in my orthodontic office awhile back and saw this kid maybe 12 or 13 with a completely retruded lower jaw, like all the way to his neck. and he was about to get his braces off, all smiling and happy. he has no idea. sad.
I was similar when I got out of braces at age 16, a few months later I was looking in the mirror (well 2 mirrors) at my side profile and noticed how weird it looked. I went back to the orthodontist to ask him about it and the changes and he quickly brushed me off saying my bite looked fine. He was finished with me. Any negative effect done on a child will be blamed on genetics.
I'm beginning to think of most orthodontists as predators. The thing that pisses me off the most is most of the victims are children. I don't know if this thought process is healthy.
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I was similar when I got out of braces at age 16, a few months later I was looking in the mirror (well 2 mirrors) at my side profile and noticed how weird it looked. I went back to the orthodontist to ask him about it and the changes and he quickly brushed me off saying my bite looked fine. He was finished with me. Any negative effect done on a child will be blamed on genetics.
I'm beginning to think of most orthodontists as predators. The thing that pisses me off the most is most of the victims are children. I don't know if this thought process is healthy.
Don't worry they brush off adults as well. I mean the f**ker I've been dealing with has full out brushed me off on several occasions saying that the problems I was experiencing were all in my head. Luckily I was taking pictures to track my progress, but when I confronted him with those he told me "oh well that's all going to be corrected through surgery" even though he insisted there would be no such changes due to the orthodontic treatment.
once they've done the damage there's not much you can do....
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I was similar when I got out of braces at age 16, a few months later I was looking in the mirror (well 2 mirrors) at my side profile and noticed how weird it looked. I went back to the orthodontist to ask him about it and the changes and he quickly brushed me off saying my bite looked fine. He was finished with me. Any negative effect done on a child will be blamed on genetics.
I'm beginning to think of most orthodontists as predators. The thing that pisses me off the most is most of the victims are children. I don't know if this thought process is healthy.
this is the attitude ive come to expect. i imagine it would be humiliating and dent the ego if one were to question if their treatment and diagnosis harmed patients. i truly think most of these orthos think what they are doing is perfectly fine. probably only a small portion are malicious and hate their patients.
my ortho insists all children should see an ortho, like it should be mandatory. i think that is bs. but the reality is only a minority of people will leave braces with a deformity. most people have braces for 1-3 years, no extractions or crazy appliance. certainly not headgear i hope.
i noticed when my ortho's retainer fee ran out, and it was a significant sum of money, the attention and focus i got was much less. even though he is contracted to treat me until my braces came off. stuck seeing his partner or assistants more and more.
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this is the attitude ive come to expect. i imagine it would be humiliating and dent the ego if one were to question if their treatment and diagnosis harmed patients. i truly think most of these orthos think what they are doing is perfectly fine. probably only a small portion are malicious and hate their patients.
my ortho insists all children should see an ortho, like it should be mandatory. i think that is bs. but the reality is only a minority of people will leave braces with a deformity. most people have braces for 1-3 years, no extractions or crazy appliance. certainly not headgear i hope.
i noticed when my ortho's retainer fee ran out, and it was a significant sum of money, the attention and focus i got was much less. even though he is contracted to treat me until my braces came off. stuck seeing his partner or assistants more and more.
That's true, most get through it unscathed.
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That's true, most get through it unscathed.
as far as you know. people on this site track their progress very closely and it's only in the last year or so that much information about ortho practices and patient diaries have been available on the internet.
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as far as you know. people on this site track their progress very closely and it's only in the last year or so that much information about ortho practices and patient diaries have been available on the internet.
the people that have problems - or feel they do - tend to be the only ones that go online. so it distorts reality. this applies to many elective medical treatments.
i would say by and large, especially these days, most people are in braces 1-3 years, arent subject to extreme orthodontic work, and generally come out ok without problems.
a major variable is the time you have been in braces and the amount of special treatments you have been subject to - extractions, headgear, long-term resistance bands, whatever.
personally i think most people who get braces dont need them but parents dont know any better. orthodontists definitely have a tight grip on this and will do everything to prevent discussion that might question mainstream practices.
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examples of optimal forward growth
(http://www.schwarzkopf.com/content/dam/sk/de/home/styling/frisuren_trends/schnitte_frisuren/frisuren_klassiker/pferdeschwanz_210.jpg)
(http://www.hollywoodteenmovies.com/ActorProfileLeo.jpg)
When I look at photos like this I don't get how there can possibly be such a huge difference between people in terms of the amount of forward growth.
This is a photo of one of Mommaerts afters.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2jd476p.png)
How much more projected do you think Angelina Jolie's face is than this girls? I find it hard to believe that diet or breathing patterns can account for such a big difference.
Are the Le Fort II and III supposed to mimick this growth?
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When I look at photos like this I don't get how there can possibly be such a huge difference between people in terms of the amount of forward growth.
This is a photo of one of Mommaerts afters.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2jd476p.png)
How much more projected do you think Angelina Jolie's face is than this girls? I find it hard to believe that diet or breathing patterns can account for such a big difference.
Are the Le Fort II and III supposed to mimick this growth?
no of course not, diet and genetics have nothing to do with that sort of growth. i think everyone should realize PEOPLE LOOK QUITE DIFFERENT! Some people are very lucky, some people ain't.
There's a degree of diet and stuff involved maybe but it's minimal. Angelina Jolie faces are quite rare.
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When I look at photos like this I don't get how there can possibly be such a huge difference between people in terms of the amount of forward growth.
This is a photo of one of Mommaerts afters.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2jd476p.png)
How much more projected do you think Angelina Jolie's face is than this girls? I find it hard to believe that diet or breathing patterns can account for such a big difference.
Are the Le Fort II and III supposed to mimick this growth?
Ok for one, that woman had surgery in order to attain a profile that falls in line with the norm, so she didn't look like that until her jaws were surgically cut up and moved forward. Secondly, you can tell how her face differs in growth from Angelina Jolina in the large difference between her anterior and posterior facial height (vs. AJ's and Leo's which as you can see is a relatively small difference in height). Finally, and this goes along with the anteroposterior height difference, Angelina's gonial angle is close to 90 degrees, right angled, while that girl's gonial angle is very obtuse, like her lower jaw is being pushed down by her upper facial structure. The jaws didn't grow in harmony like ideally they're supposed to.
Lefort II and III mimick normal growth and are reserved for severe deformities, I wouldn't bank on any surgeon performing it on you. Those celebrities jaws harmonize in a way that very few normal people do. What's important to take away from this is a subtle few mm's here or there can make more of a difference than you would believe.
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I had 4 big adult molars taken out at 14 or 15. Most people get bicuspids, but my ortho wante to take out bigger teeth (and the ones with poor enamel). I was in braces 13-16. No expansion at all. I have the same facial structure as my father, and my old dentist used to complain about how small our mouths were...yet it expansion seemingly never occurred to anyone. Extractions were a "must" to sort the crowding and prevent impacted wisdom teeth.
I had the extractions under local and it was awful. Much more traumatic than my rhinoplasty, I guess because I was young. The locals hurt like a mother-f*cker and the teeth had 3 big roots and required a lot of force to take out. I still remember the crunching and wrenching involve :(
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Ok for one, that woman had surgery in order to attain a profile that falls in line with the norm, so she didn't look like that until her jaws were surgically cut up and moved forward. Secondly, you can tell how her face differs in growth from Angelina Jolina in the large difference between her anterior and posterior facial height (vs. AJ's and Leo's which as you can see is a relatively small difference in height). Finally, and this goes along with the anteroposterior height difference, Angelina's gonial angle is close to 90 degrees, right angled, while that girl's gonial angle is very obtuse, like her lower jaw is being pushed down by her upper facial structure. The jaws didn't grow in harmony like ideally they're supposed to.
Lefort II and III mimick normal growth and are reserved for severe deformities, I wouldn't bank on any surgeon performing it on you. Those celebrities jaws harmonize in a way that very few normal people do. What's important to take away from this is a subtle few mm's here or there can make more of a difference than you would believe.
In that case shouldnt Mommaerts have impacted the upper jaw? As I understand it impactingthe upper jaw causes the lower jaw to swing up on its own because its no longer being helf down by the upper jaw.
Would you say then the gonial angle is what gives a person that well formed jaw line? Is there not actually that much difference in distance between Angelina and that girl in terms of the distance between the chin and where the neck begins?
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In that case shouldnt Mommaerts have impacted the upper jaw? As I understand it impactingthe upper jaw causes the lower jaw to swing up on its own because its no longer being helf down by the upper jaw.
Would you say then the gonial angle is what gives a person that well formed jaw line? Is there not actually that much difference in distance between Angelina and that girl in terms of the distance between the chin and where the neck begins?
Yeah that's right about what happens to the lower jaw, but I don't know the particulars of her case that MM did and if he had the capability to give her a more flat mandibular plane I think he would've done so. There may have been a functional or soft tissue situation unique to her case complicating the ability to rotate the lower jaw any more upwards.
I would say gonial angle, length of mandibular body, flaring of the gonials, vertical length of the ramus, and tautness of skin all play a part in creating the jaw line
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Angelina Jolie before her surgeries. Not so much forward growth.
(http://slimcelebrity.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/angelina_jolie_plastic-surgery-before-and-after.jpg)
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I actually think that she looked better before surgery
super cute, dunno what drove her to get surgery
(http://i.imgur.com/iXGOibY.jpg)
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Maybe breathing issues or profile
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Maybe breathing issues or profile
Nah, it was to look more mature/beautiful and have that projecting jaws look. Everyone is obsessed with it, including Hollywood, including us. I actually think she did look a lot more natural and possibly better before surgery. Her new chin looks really fake, and too strong in comparison to the before chin.
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How much more projected do you think Angelina Jolie's face is than this girls? I find it hard to believe that diet or breathing patterns can account for such a big difference.
i dont buy the diet's influence on growth. i read somewhere that some people think eating soft foods at a young age somehow has a negative impact on growth. i call BS..
the tongue forms the palate and triggers the growth of the upper jaw, and therefore most of the face. at least the important parts. so mouth breathing, lifelong at least, might mean poor oral posture, which can influence how the face will grow as you develop. but it's just a correlation and there hasn't been a terrible amount of research because doctors have no incentive to care.
@overbite
pretty obvious she is a teenager in the before pic. and it's hollywood so theyve all had loads of crazy PS.
i think the girl look slightly slightly betterish before. her face is slightly wider after and rounder, and she looks kind of older. in her case she had more to lose than to gain. i would say she lucked out, it could have been so much worse. also the pasty whiteness suited her better. must have had some functional problems i cant see why a surgeon would operate on her.
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i think the girl look slightly slightly betterish before. her face is slightly wider after and rounder, and she looks kind of older. in her case she had more to lose than to gain. i would say she lucked out, it could have been so much worse.
it really sucks that this consideration needs to be made. jaw surgery has a long way to come before it becomes a guaranteed aesthetic improvement
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you guys do realize you're going to be unhappy all your lives pining and wishing that some combination of factors (your ortho, your parents, evolution, chance diet etc. etc. etc. ) conspired to make you like like a male/female model. Sorry but I think what you don't realize is that even if you had perfect bites and teeth and jaw symmetry you wouldn't necessarily be good looking whatsoever. First, attractiveness is really only an issue from the ages of 15-35 -that's the age range, after that, you're too old so it doesn't matter anyway (i.e. your skin etc. is too lax, sun damaged, etc.). And even then, you probably had a more normal bite BEFORE jaw surgery or braces.
Fools, wake the f**k up! Most people are not good looking. That is why we valorize good looking people. Because they are rare. Stop trying to blame your ortho etc.e tc. on the fact you're ugly, it don't make that much of a difference. If you had jaw surgery accept your results. If you didn't, temper your expecations. f**k.
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you guys do realize you're going to be unhappy all your lives pining and wishing that some combination of factors (your ortho, your parents, evolution, chance diet etc. etc. etc. ) conspired to make you like like a male/female model. Sorry but I think what you don't realize is that even if you had perfect bites and teeth and jaw symmetry you wouldn't necessarily be good looking whatsoever. First, attractiveness is really only an issue from the ages of 15-35 -that's the age range, after that, you're too old so it doesn't matter anyway (i.e. your skin etc. is too lax, sun damaged, etc.). And even then, you probably had a more normal bite BEFORE jaw surgery or braces.
Fools, wake the f**k up! Most people are not good looking. That is why we valorize good looking people. Because they are rare. Stop trying to blame your ortho etc.e tc. on the fact you're ugly, it don't make that much of a difference. If you had jaw surgery accept your results. If you didn't, temper your expecations. f**k.
many of us have looks that don't match our personalities and are tired of having the expectation of acting in a certain way
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the issue isnt attractiveness exclusively. the issue is watching your body slowly being undermined for reasons beyond genetics. and not minor changes (relatively) caused by dental work as an adult. i mean day and night changes, both functional and physical.
if you are just born that way (minus the pain and discomfort, which is telling you something is wrong) then you should be ok. it's pretty easy to tell how you would have ended up by looking at your family and your development.
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many of us have looks that don't match our personalities and are tired of having the expectation of acting in a certain way
nope, sorry, don't believe that. your personality suits your personality. we are what we pay attention to. you pay attention to your looks as an excuse for why your don't have a personality which can express itself freely without some excuse of how you look. i.e. you DON'T have a personality. harsh but true.
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nope, sorry, don't believe that. your personality suits your personality. we are what we pay attention to. you pay attention to your looks as an excuse for why your don't have a personality which can express itself freely without some excuse of how you look. i.e. you DON'T have a personality. harsh but true.
ok
I look forward to your new thread next week about how extractions ruined your life
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nope, sorry, don't believe that. your personality suits your personality. we are what we pay attention to. you pay attention to your looks as an excuse for why your don't have a personality which can express itself freely without some excuse of how you look. i.e. you DON'T have a personality. harsh but true.
and don't worry, i'm holding myself to the same standard. look at vin diesel --the guy is ugly, weak jaw, long face etc. etc. etc. but he turned himself into a hollywood movie star because he has f**king cajones and self-belief. you fools (me too) are actually all decent looking and are just too s**t scared to do anything you want to do so you use a few mm of your jaw alignment. i get it. i understand. it's easy being a coward CK/Euphoria. It's really f**king easy wanking off on this site and reading about a bunch of f**king bulls**t. now i agree with you orthos are f**king mutherf**kers. But really, do you think ortho or not you guys would have been 10s on the GQ scale? Unlikely. As it is, Euphoria you're a nice looking chap. you can bang any chick you want but you're too much of a p*ssy (sorry gotta say the truth, you're a little s**tbird). And CK, you're just going to spend the rest of your life on this site even though your operation has been over for a year --seriously, get the f**k over with it and move on.
we all got to move on eventually, unless you just enjoy constantly wanking on thsi site.
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ok
I look forward to your new thread next week about how extractions ruined your life
well, i was like 30 years old and the f**king ortho decided to take my teeth out. the lesson there is you don't even need straight teeth. who the f**k here would not fully just go back to having slightly crooked teeth and wish they had never heard about orthodontics. i'm sorry but i agree that orthodontics is f**king bulls**t and all that f**king treatment.
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nope, sorry, don't believe that. your personality suits your personality. we are what we pay attention to. you pay attention to your looks as an excuse for why your don't have a personality which can express itself freely without some excuse of how you look. i.e. you DON'T have a personality. harsh but true.
you dont actually believe that do you? we r products of our environment bro. sure you can make a choice and react differently to your environment but that will take awhile to get that kind of perspective. by then you are old and no one cares, as you say.
with euphoria and others the problem is beyond superficial looks and way more complex. some people are just born meh and adapt. cant get caught up on looks alone.
do you know any young people with your perspective? of course 30+ it's just downhill from there.
also vin diesel ugly? really. moderately attractive and his voice is BA.
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well, i was like 30 years old and the f**king ortho decided to take my teeth out. the lesson there is you don't even need straight teeth. who the f**k here would not fully just go back to having slightly crooked teeth and wish they had never heard about orthodontics. i'm sorry but i agree that orthodontics is f**king bulls**t and all that f**king treatment.
I would love to only have damage inflicted by orthos well into adulthood, instead of something that appeared during puberty and changed the whole face
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you dont actually believe that do you? we r products of our environment bro. sure you can make a choice and react differently to your environment but that will take awhile to get that kind of perspective. by then you are old and no one cares, as you say.
with euphoria and others the problem is beyond superficial looks and way more complex. some people are just born meh and adapt. cant get caught up on looks alone.
do you know any young people with your perspective? of course 30+ it's just downhill from there.
also vin diesel ugly? really. moderately attractive and his voice is BA.
yes, i know tons of young people with my perspective and i know tons of 40 plus who think life just keeps getting better. trust me, you and euphoria and myself etc. etc. are just a bunch of f**king pussies sniffling our f**king muzzles up each others anuses like a couple of filthy little mutts. it's the truth, that is what you're doing here since as far as i remember this isn't a "here's how to solve your problem" site. i mean it really doesn't matter if you were born all alpha with class perfect jaws and looked like superman, you'd still be a p*ssy cause that's your personality. just saying.
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i'm just saying Ck needs to move on with his life. And frankly euphoria, you should not even entertain braces or surgery. you look fine just accept it and move on. find value in something else like become a good oceanographer or veternarian or some s**t. it's not like you want to become a male model or actor. and trust me if you can't get laid on your current looks you looking any better ain't gonna do s**t. so seriously just move on.
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lazlo im not arguing people should hold themselves hostage over this but i really think you are trivializing what many people have to deal with here.
and a lot of you - no offense hopefully - have no business complaining about looks and wanting jaw surgery. you know who you guys are. too focused on looks (ignoring function), and not seeing the bigger picture. extractions as an adult arent going to destroy your face to the point of deformity. let's stop pretending it does, it doesnt.
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lazlo im not arguing people should hold themselves hostage over this but i really think you are trivializing what many people have to deal with here.
and a lot of you - no offense hopefully - have no business complaining about looks and wanting jaw surgery. you know who you guys are. too focused on looks (ignoring function), and not seeing the bigger picture. extractions as an adult arent going to destroy your face to the point of deformity. let's stop pretending it does, it doesnt.
no extractions doesn't destroy your face but it does trap your tongue into a feeling of ever present restriction which is way worse than some bulls**t thing that happened in the deep past which you can't even feel. extraciton make your goddamn bite very small which you can most certainly feel as an adult. anyway, CK, my advice to you is you need to find someone to fixe your functional/pain problems and then never think about this crap again. i knwo you're dealing with a lot of s**t but you must move on. it's not like there's any surgery now or in the next 10 years which will cure your childhood deformities.
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you all do realize you're going to either be out of your twenties in like five or so years and/or you'll be dead in a few decades. so just keep worrying about this.
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lazlo im not arguing people should hold themselves hostage over this but i really think you are trivializing what many people have to deal with here.
and a lot of you - no offense hopefully - have no business complaining about looks and wanting jaw surgery. you know who you guys are. too focused on looks (ignoring function), and not seeing the bigger picture. extractions as an adult arent going to destroy your face to the point of deformity. let's stop pretending it does, it doesnt.
yeah I just feel extractions are more cut and dry if done on an adult. Nothing like a growth issue where all the soft tissue & muscles and every part of the face grewth with the hard tissue. major bummer, probably a lot less correctable
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your tongue feels trapped even AFTER surgery!? oy vey, what's the point of this surgery then!?
not enough projection. ive been trying to train my tongue to just accept the length of space it has but it just isnt enough. not completely trapped just mostly unstable. certainly exacerbated by the lack of hard tissue support.
everything is all connected. if you experience extreme abnormal growth as i did the muscles and soft tissue, and hard tissue will have a terribly difficult time agreeing with each other.
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not enough projection. ive been trying to train my tongue to just accept the length of space it has but it just isnt enough. not completely trapped just mostly unstable. certainly exacerbated by the lack of hard tissue support.
everything is all connected. if you experience extreme abnormal growth as i did the muscles and soft tissue, and hard tissue will have a terribly difficult time agreeing with each other.
CK, I feel for you man, it does not sound pleasant what you're going through. Thing is, surgery can't address any of it now, can it? If not it can still improve, I do believe that. If you find some other modalities like therapy and exercises etc. it may cause your soft tissue to adapt and at least the pain or unpleasant feelings you have can be solved. I'm sure you can get better through a combination of these techniques and persistent, patient work. Some of it may be psychosomatic as well, I really do believe that, I'm not saying it's in your head, just that there may be therapies that will fix the mind/body dislocation you may have. it's just hard to pinpoint what exactly will work.
Do feel optimistic though that the problems can be fixed.
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yeah I just feel extractions are more cut and dry if done on an adult. Nothing like a growth issue where all the soft tissue & muscles and every part of the face grewth with the hard tissue. major bummer, probably a lot less correctable
Im with you on that.
The functional issue of not enough tongue space sounds hell for anyone though, I luckily dont seem to have it (My tongue feel OK in my mouth) I suppose its like being trapped in a room with no doors, you'd end up going mad pretty quickly.
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Lefort II and III mimick normal growth and are reserved for severe deformities, I wouldn't bank on any surgeon performing it on you. Those celebrities jaws harmonize in a way that very few normal people do. What's important to take away from this is a subtle few mm's here or there can make more of a difference than you would believe.
What about this girl? This is the only non-Crouzon syndrome case where I have seen a Le Fort III performed and she doesn't look deformed to me.
Pekay's second post - last girl
http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=570.15 (http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=570.15)
She looks gorgeous after. I wonder why did a Le Fort III on her?
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What about this girl? This is the only non-Crouzon syndrome case where I have seen a Le Fort III performed and she doesn't look deformed to me.
Pekay's first post - last girl
http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=570.15 (http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=570.15)
She looks gorgeous after. I wonder why did a Le Fort III on her?
Fig. 6. (A) Patient with significant midfacial deficiency (maxilla, zygoma, and orbital rim) with compensated class III occlusion. (B) Anterior mandibular dental alveolar osteotomy, placement of a hinge-joint bone plate, and a dental-anchored distraction bar to improve the arch form and decompensate the mandibular dentition fully. (C) Preoperative and postoperative lateral cephalometric radiographs showing LeFort III, LeFort I, and mandibular BSSO procedure. (D) Clinical outcome, with dramatic improvement in the overall facial aesthetic balance and occlusal relationship. On the right, the occlusion is class II as the canine is moved into the missing lateral incisor position.
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What about this girl? This is the only non-Crouzon syndrome case where I have seen a Le Fort III performed and she doesn't look deformed to me.
Pekay's first post - last girl
http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=570.15 (http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=570.15)
She looks gorgeous after. I wonder why did a Le Fort III on her?
I don't know, definitely a bizarre situation. They refer to her as having a significant midfacial deficiency when it looks pretty similar to something most of us have.
@pekay can you post a full-size picture of her x-ray. It's not letting me view it without paying
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I don't know, definitely a bizarre situation. They refer to her as having a significant midfacial deficiency when it looks pretty similar to something most of us have.
@pekay can you post a full-size picture of her x-ray. It's not letting me view it without paying
I didn't save her X-ray picture and ScienceDirect just got really greedy with their pictures (can't even view them in full anymore)
but from what I remember her post-op xray looked insane
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are you guys trolling with this s**t btw? if given the opportunity you would honestly get a Lefort III?
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are you guys trolling with this s**t btw? if given the opportunity you would honestly get a Lefort III?
No, just morbid curiosity.
It's high risk blindness Moonpix, I have no idea why a surgeon performed it on her. would you take an improved midface if you couldn't even see what it looked like?
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No, just morbid curiosity.
It's high risk blindness Moonpix, I have no idea why a surgeon performed it on her. would you take an improved midface if you couldn't even see what it looked like?
my question was mainly directed at Moon
check and mate
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i have a problem with accepting that's a lefort 1 AND a lefort III. I don't even know what that means since a lefort III moves the entire face forward. So that means she had the lefort osteotomy above the gum line, but then ALSO in a second segment the coronal osteotomy (around the skull) for the lefort III? And lefort III's are usually done with some kind of external incision which I don't even see here --I think it would be quite apparent. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just don't understand how it would be done. That something like that was done though is quite obvious. I would guess it's similar to the lefort II quadrangular I posted info about from Eugene Keller at MAYO, which similarly brings the cheekbones and lower orbital rim forward but is performed with internal incisions....
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Lefort III is for amateurs
me, I'm going with the monobloc osteotomy
(http://www.mdconsult.com/books/asset/full.do?eid=4-u1.0-B978-0-323-03470-8..00030-2..gr11a&isbn=978-0-323-03470-8&assetType=full&uniqId=)
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my question was mainly directed at Moon
check and mate
God no. I know about the risks. I don't get why they would be willing to do that to someone who didnt have a severe life threatening condition like Crouzon syndrome.
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f**k it, I'm just going to go for a full on head transplant, none of that mincy bone cutting for me.