jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: pumukka on April 17, 2013, 02:33:06 PM
-
I wasn't sure if open a new topic or write in an old one in the overbite section since its been a couple of months since anyone replied, but I think people could be interested in this...
I was wondering about distrax to widen my lower palate, before orthodontics and extractions I always wanted a wider palate/smile, extractions ruined it even more >:(
A doctor I asked said they could do sarpe to widen my top arch but my bottom arch wouldn't fit together because they cant make the lower wider with just braces. So I was wondering is distraction osteogenesis the only way to widen the lower mandible arch? how bad this could be for the joints / TMJ? www.accutechortho.com/products/distrax (http://www.accutechortho.com/products/distrax)
Opening the spaces and put implants would really widen it too? I'll even be happy to just have my old width even it wasn't that wide it was better than now :( do this work? http://www.facefocused.com/ReOpen.html (http://www.facefocused.com/ReOpen.html)
I contacted MM and said its much work /time, but to me it would really make a difference a wider smile, do you guys know anymore doctors (in Europe) that do this method? and do you know what the approximate doctors fee would be?
Thanks!
-
you said you contacted MM who is that? i would also be interested in this as I want to eventually have my extractions opened up and some kind of implant etc. put in. But my fear is that it would take upto 2 years to correct and I can't stand being in braces that much longer --already been in braces for a 2.5 years.
-
Prof. Mommaerts. (MM) hehe. 2.5 years is a lot in braces!
My extraction spaces have opened up a little, Id be ok too with just widen the arch without using implants and just closing the gaps, although I prefer that wide full teeth smile. I only worry that in the next 5 years they'll suddenly start with the tooth regeneration cuz after surgery theres no way I could apply for that, I know its wishful thinking but who knows.
I still have my bicuspids in a sealed bag ( I asked to keep them) wish they could just implant that instead of implants. But for some part it does make sense that by putting teeth were they were supposed to be my face will be back to where it started, with a wider smile, bigger cheeks etc... I so wish to have all that back :'(
I'll contact distrax manufactures and hope they can give me some referals and let you know
-
Prof. Mommaerts. (MM) hehe. 2.5 years is a lot in braces!
My extraction spaces have opened up a little, Id be ok too with just widen the arch without using implants and just closing the gaps, although I prefer that wide full teeth smile. I only worry that in the next 5 years they'll suddenly start with the tooth regeneration cuz after surgery theres no way I could apply for that, I know its wishful thinking but who knows.
I still have my bicuspids in a sealed bag ( I asked to keep them) wish they could just implant that instead of implants. But for some part it does make sense that by putting teeth were they were supposed to be my face will be back to where it started, with a wider smile, bigger cheeks etc... I so wish to have all that back :'(
I'll contact distrax manufactures and hope they can give me some referals and let you know
did you find any referrals in north america?
-
bump, did you contact distrax?
-
not yet, I've been busy this week, but will contact them soon :)
-
not yet, I've been busy this week, but will contact them soon :)
And....
-
Distrax hasnt contact me back :-\
I guess reimplanting the extracted premolars is not a fix to not having surgery/sarpe, but at least will put you back where you started(+straight teeth) and fix what extractions ruined, then some will still need or want to have the surgery they needed.
So having had my bicuspid premolar extracted, and reopening and putting them back might lead to bone loss problem etc. What would be the best solution to have that big wide "hollywood" smile?
Cuz If I still had all my premolars and then I have sarpe + surgery I would have that "perfect" smile. That I dont think it can be archived now even if they do sarpe to expand it and make my smille less narrow with no black triangles, you can still kinda see the difference between 28 and 24 teeth smiles
-
Maybe I explained my self wrong. I'm sure there are also 32 teeth narrow smiles.
What I meant is normally, the "beautiful hollywood wide smile" (I dont like that name but lets call it that) you can see its wide and I believe most have 2 set of premolars, at least the ones considered most beautiful have them all (yes I checked and counted them lol)
Not to say there arent wide smiles with just 1 set of premolars, maybe even missing one set of molars too hehe
Its not a huge deal at all, but there is a bit of difference in a smile with 1 premolar and a bigger molar afterwards then a smile with 2 premolars cuz it didnt had extractions. Of course it also matter the size of teeth, arch shape, the soft tissue, how wide the mouth opens when it smiles, after all I was talking about that "perfect hollywood smile" not just a very nice smile
It was just a comment made from my personal preference not like even trained eyes will focus on this small thing, especially if one is not an actor/model cuz they wont have pics/film taken up so close up
-
How come you didn't have to have your wisdom teeth out yet?
-
You could still be narrow but more than likely not more narrow than before I guess, thats also what I was saying :)
I'm not sure, I would like to have back the real ones, then i wish they already did the regrowing of teeth or just implant my real old teeth lol
small spaces have opened where my premolars used to be so I dont know if close the diastemas or opening them more and implants, either option includes surgery and expanding the arches, I still want to consult some more doctors, but everything is so much complicated now... :'(
-
How come you didn't have to have your wisdom teeth out yet?
They haven't come in yet and aren't causing any pain 8)
the dentist made mention of it a little while back but didn't the last time i saw him. If there's not a bonafide problem I'm not getting them taken out
-
don't have teeth extracted...
The Crowded Maxilla jaw distraction orthognathic jaw surgery orthodontics braces before & after.mov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPttGaaMHQk#ws)
-
They haven't come in yet and aren't causing any pain 8)
the dentist made mention of it a little while back but didn't the last time i saw him. If there's not a bonafide problem I'm not getting them taken out
Are you having surgery? If so don't they have to take the wisdom out to use that space for cuts and screws?
-
I just have to block my emotions and not think about it, it makes me pretty sad and upset otherwise :/
it makes such a difference when no extractions are made >:(
it makes a huge difference. extractions ruined our f**king bites/mouths/appearances. The last few nights I've been out I can spot extraction cases. I was at a bar talking to various girls and I was like, you had your four bicuspid teeth extracted, right? And all the people I asked said yes and didn't know there was anything wrong. I can tell because while their teeth looked straight their arches looked very small and their mouths were recessed slightly. Once you can recognize it you see it all over the place and you can just tell the people would have looked so much better if they had had SARPE or rapid palatal expansion to grow their jaws and fit all their teeth.
I would have it reversed but i don't want implants (i.e. fake teeth screwed into my mouth). If in the future they ever develop the science to genetically engineer or grow teeth I'll get distraction and have new teeth implanted. i feel like i've been permanently disfigured.
-
extractions as a child or adult??
-
it makes a huge difference. extractions ruined our f**king bites/mouths/appearances. The last few nights I've been out I can spot extraction cases. I was at a bar talking to various girls and I was like, you had your four bicuspid teeth extracted, right? And all the people I asked said yes and didn't know there was anything wrong. I can tell because while their teeth looked straight their arches looked very small and their mouths were recessed slightly. Once you can recognize it you see it all over the place and you can just tell the people would have looked so much better if they had had SARPE or rapid palatal expansion to grow their jaws and fit all their teeth.
I would have it reversed but i don't want implants (i.e. fake teeth screwed into my mouth). If in the future they ever develop the science to genetically engineer or grow teeth I'll get distraction and have new teeth implanted. i feel like i've been permanently disfigured.
Did you have extractions done as an adult or as a kid? I had em as a kid and I knew something was off at the time, but never realized how bad it was till I started researching the topic. Looking at pictures and x-rays I think my case is a bit more extreme than most extraction cases (with regards to how much it changed my facial appearance).
-
i had them as an adult, but i think they're bad at any age. they should grow the jaw.
-
I wonder if anyone has successfully sued their ortho for disfiguring them? Makes me so angry that these butchers continue to get away with it, I mean they must know that they're potentially screwing up someones face, right?
-
I don't think they do because they don't see people long term and they are focused solely on the bite and stewing teeth.
-
i had them as an adult, but i think they're bad at any age. they should grow the jaw.
not sure how extractions as an adult would affect growth...obviously complicate jaw surgery though.
-
not sure how extractions as an adult would affect growth...obviously complicate jaw surgery though.
doesn't affect growth but the jaw shrinks and upper tooth extraction would cause loss of mid-face structural support
it definitely seems to complicate jaw surgery
this guy had the usual 4 bicuspid extraction (when he was younger apparently) and he needed SARPE + bi-max to correct all the mess it created
(http://i.imgur.com/okGCdfK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dCTTBtQ.jpg)
-
doesn't affect growth but the jaw shrinks and upper tooth extraction would cause loss of mid-face structural support
it definitely seems to complicate jaw surgery
this guy had the usual 4 bicuspid extraction (when he was younger apparently) and he needed SARPE + bi-max to correct all the mess it created
(http://i.imgur.com/okGCdfK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dCTTBtQ.jpg)
i see it. it's subtle though...not like totally ruining his face or anything. i imagine extractions as a child would do a number on the face tho.
-
I had extractions when I was about 20 but untill then I lived with blocked out upper canines so I must have had pretty bad crowding. Would my growth have been as bad as someone who had the extractions when they were a kid and had relatively straight teeth from braces?
-
I had extractions when I was about 20 but untill then I lived with blocked out upper canines so I must have had pretty bad crowding. Would my growth have been as bad as someone who had the extractions when they were a kid and had relatively straight teeth from braces?
how many extrractions did you have?
-
how many extrractions did you have?
Two from my upper jaw.
-
I had extractions when I was about 20 but untill then I lived with blocked out upper canines so I must have had pretty bad crowding. Would my growth have been as bad as someone who had the extractions when they were a kid and had relatively straight teeth from braces?
not at all. 20 your bones should be hard and done growing for the most part.
-
doesn't affect growth but the jaw shrinks and upper tooth extraction would cause loss of mid-face structural support
it definitely seems to complicate jaw surgery
this guy had the usual 4 bicuspid extraction (when he was younger apparently) and he needed SARPE + bi-max to correct all the mess it created
(http://i.imgur.com/okGCdfK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dCTTBtQ.jpg)
wow didn't notice this before, but this guy has horrible, horrible tooth recession, he also has pretty bad dark triangles near the molars (which I also have, cannot be corrected orthodontically). As I was saying before these spaces are created by extractions. I also just read a long blog post by a orthodontist warning that the reason they do 4 bicuspid extractions is because they can't just take out part of a tooth and usually when they do two upper, they have to do two lower. There's no precision in it or any really thought, it's just a reflex protocol. So it almost always leads to there being too much space left between teeth.
-
as I predicted the technique of widening the lower jaw is beginning to attain wider and wider dominance. Here's a notable clinic in Palo Alto where they distract the lower jaw to match the upper.
http://www.sleepapneasurgery.com/maxillomandibular_expansion.html (http://www.sleepapneasurgery.com/maxillomandibular_expansion.html)
-
doesn't affect growth but the jaw shrinks and upper tooth extraction would cause loss of mid-face structural support
it definitely seems to complicate jaw surgery
this guy had the usual 4 bicuspid extraction (when he was younger apparently) and he needed SARPE + bi-max to correct all the mess it created
(http://i.imgur.com/okGCdfK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dCTTBtQ.jpg)
Its funny that in the after his midface projection doesnt seem as good and jaw is more narrow. Only things that were positive aesthetically were the bite and cheekbones from 3/4. Everything else seemed to get worse.
-
Its funny that in the after his midface projection doesnt seem as good and jaw is more narrow. Only things that were positive aesthetically were the bite and cheekbones from 3/4. Everything else seemed to get worse.
Upper jaw surgery seems kinda tricky and will never be fully figured out (as far as aesthetics) -just imo
-
Upper jaw surgery seems kinda tricky and will never be fully figured out (as far as aesthetics) -just imo
His cheekbones from 3/4 seem better in the after, maybe because of the wider palate ? His under eye area and jaw look significantly worse after IMO.
-
I kinda like that guys' chin better before in the 3/4... yeah that's too bad.
I'm hoping my eyes don't look much more sunken like that after the swelling goes down.
-
his gum recession is just atrocious.
-
his gum recession is just atrocious.
Yep, his teeth need a good whitening too. They look yellow and gross.
I just watched this video on dental implants. The whole process doesn't look too bad, it's a bit like the reverse of extractions. They just make an incision, drill/cut the jaw bone and then place a bolt for the tooth. It looks much easier than jaw surgery, and can be done under local anaesthetic.
Lazlo you should look into getting upper/lower distraction plus dental implants, to reverse your s**tty ortho work.
http://youtu.be/a6OFPadmOAI (http://youtu.be/a6OFPadmOAI)
-
Hi everyone, I haven't post in a while, so Distrax never got back to me, Mommaerts did recently, I have an appointment in a few months, hes very booked up!
He said he does widen the lower jaw and upper jaw, but first we need to have a consultation and go from there.
Another thing I was wondering was, sometimes patients that need sarpe and lefort get it done at the same time, i think its called a 2 or 3 piece lefort, is that possible to with the lower jaw? widen it and moving it at the same time?
Probably its best to first widen as that will change the arch and length by a few mm..
Sorry, english its not my first language so I'm not sure if it makes any sense to you what i just wrote...
-
Hi everyone, I haven't post in a while, so Distrax never got back to me, Mommaerts did recently, I have an appointment in a few months, hes very booked up!
He said he does widen the lower jaw and upper jaw, but first we need to have a consultation and go from there.
Another thing I was wondering was, sometimes patients that need sarpe and lefort get it done at the same time, i think its called a 2 or 3 piece lefort, is that possible to with the lower jaw? widen it and moving it at the same time?
Probably its best to first widen as that will change the arch and length by a few mm..
Sorry, english its not my first language so I'm not sure if it makes any sense to you what i just wrote...
pumukka, yes it is possible to widen the upper during surgery either a 2 or 3 piece lefort. there are two problems with this though, 1) you can't widen that much, like less than 6 mm only and then the further problem is that it relapses around 30 percent or more. SO you mostly end up with max 3-4mm of widening IF YOU'RE LUCKY. By doing SARPE you can widen the upper up to 10-12 mm and there's till relapse but you get much more width. Also the multi-segment lefort is more risky, roots can die and you can lose a lot of blood, so finally it's not really worth it.
For the lower jaw it IS POSSIBLE to widen the lower, but this has a very high morbidity, i.e. more of then than not you will lose teeth to this procedure AND both the multi-segment lefort or widening the mandible through surgery must wreak havoc on the gums. It's better in both instances to do surgical expansion through distraction (which is what sarpe ultimately is) rather than in one fell swoop during surgery.
-
Instead of making a new thread I'll just post this here:
Just how much could be achieved with distraction? If one was willing to undergo enough general anaesthesias would it not be possible to make the mandible wider, ramus longer, advanced further etc? Wouldn't this have the benefit then of having no signs of having been touched even on an X-ray? That it'd be just like you were born that way. Is this a stupid goal to have?
-
Instead of making a new thread I'll just post this here:
Just how much could be achieved with distraction? If one was willing to undergo enough general anaesthesias would it not be possible to make the mandible wider, ramus longer, advanced further etc? Wouldn't this have the benefit then of having no signs of having been touched even on an X-ray? That it'd be just like you were born that way. Is this a stupid goal to have?
the problem with distraaction is it takes a long time. Mandible widening for example, you put the device in your lower gums, it's painful and irritating, like 10 times worse than braces. and then you have to keep it in there for 4-6 months --that's just for that procedure. etc. etc.
I hear you, it would be great, but i think it's unrealistic.
-
the problem with distraaction is it takes a long time. Mandible widening for example, you put the device in your lower gums, it's painful and irritating, like 10 times worse than braces. and then you have to keep it in there for 4-6 months --that's just for that procedure. etc. etc.
I hear you, it would be great, but i think it's unrealistic.
Ah, one can dream... if only our parents used orthotropics when we were children none of this would be necessary.
-
Ah, one can dream... if only our parents used orthotropics when we were children none of this would be necessary.
I wouldn't blame your parents. It's like blaming the past for any number of things which you may or may never have known about. The chances of them finding a dentist/orthodontist/practitioner who would have known about any of this or even jaw surgery etc.. is almost nil.
-
I agree, sometimes, extractions can damage a face. But there are people who have had premolars extracted and still look good. Catherine Zeta-Jones has a nice smile in my opinion and she had 2 premolars extracted. Hedi Klum had teeth extracted also but i'm not sure how many..
Ofcourse, i'm against teeth extraction but i just wanted to say that not everyone's faces will end up looking worse after this treatment. When there's a skeletal discrepancy, extractions can only accentuate the existing problem. And not only extractions can change the shape face but braces alone can do that too, especially traditional train tracks - since these things are moving teeth back and tilt them vertically (miniscrews anchorage would prevent that tho). Bad habits such as mouth breathing, tongue thrusting or thumb sucking will progressively damage faces, if not stopped early. Children have many options but for adults with moderate to severe facial deformity, jaw surgery is the only solution (imo).
Excuse my english :-[
-
extractions are definitely unhealthy but i dont think it can turn someone ugly or bad looking. tongue thrust, palate not forming properly which triggers the growth of the upper jaw (and areas of the face that cannot be meaningful fixed through jaw surgery) can have a devastating affect.
both my parents had extractions and they looked fine at my age. i would have gladly exchanged everything i have for extractions. i am seriously jealous.
-
I agree, sometimes, extractions can damage a face. But there are people who have had premolars extracted and still look good. Catherine Zeta-Jones has a nice smile in my opinion and she had 2 premolars extracted. Hedi Klum had teeth extracted also but i'm not sure how many..
Ofcourse, i'm against teeth extraction but i just wanted to say that not everyone's faces will end up looking worse after this treatment. When there's a skeletal discrepancy, extractions can only accentuate the existing problem. And not only extractions can change the shape face but braces alone can do that too, especially traditional train tracks - since these things are moving teeth back and tilt them vertically (miniscrews anchorage would prevent that tho). Bad habits such as mouth breathing, tongue thrusting or thumb sucking will progressively damage faces, if not stopped early. Children have many options but for adults with moderate to severe facial deformity, jaw surgery is the only solution (imo).
Excuse my english :-[
your english is great! I don't think extractions can turn someone from good looking to ugly, but there will be a perceptible difference in the negative direction. Even those models you mentioned, their smiles look narrower as a result of extractions. What is worse though is that extractions severely damage your gums. If you have them when you're young it's okay because the gums are growing and more resilient. Everyone who has had extractions as an adult I've seen has had severe gum problems (which lead to losing teeth) and loss of interdental papilla, too much space between roots, and even worse, the palate space becomes smaller so your tongue feels trapped.
I've even seen the ortho do the extraction on his assistant and all these things happened to her --loss of gum tissue, trapped tongue, her teeth are straight, but her smile looks horrible.
tons of celebrities have crowding and i often wondered why they didn't just get braces, now i know. receding gums or dark triangles and a narrow smile, look MUCH MUCH MUCH worse than crowding.
-
I found something very interesting:
54 Malocclusions (Part 1/5) - An Introduction to Dr Mahony's Mini-Residency in Orthodontics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMGtcYXp95Q#)
-
I found something very interesting:
54 Malocclusions (Part 1/5) - An Introduction to Dr Mahony's Mini-Residency in Orthodontics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMGtcYXp95Q#)
BRILLIANT. BRILLIANT. BRILLIANT. THANK YOU FOR THIS HAIKU. This orthodontist is VERY intelligent.
To give any of you a quick summary with regards what this is about: He says you have to spend a lot of time with diagnosis. He's teaching orthodontists here. He says that extractions USED to be based on angles and forces. He says that in mainstream orthodontists the decision to extract is made on mm's of space. He says NOW HE MAKES THE DECISION TO EXTRACT OR NOT EXTRACT BASED ON FACIAL PROFILE.
Essentially, in cases such as mine, where the facial profile was already compromised, it only became exacerbated by the extractions.
-
I understood everything he said and i know he is right but unfortunately not many traditional orthos will agree with him. I believe they are too lazy and they do not want to "update their techniques". We need more people like him, we need someone who wants to improve our lives, not the opposite. Most of them care only about money tho..
-
Haiku's I've started a thread about this video, I'm going to quote your comment there.