jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => General Chat => Topic started by: x on April 29, 2013, 03:16:23 PM
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http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=116207991&page=1 (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=116207991&page=1)
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I read it And feel bad (mouth breather)
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remember everyone's growth is different. there are too many variables. im not sure if im on board with the mouth breathing claim, that in and of itself shouldnt cause lasting damage. however mouth breathing could involve a tongue thrust and that can mess with the teeth and palate development. to what degree again all depends.
also, you can experience abnormal growth and the class of your jaw may not change. the bite can also be superficially corrected with braces but doesn't undo the damage done to the rest of the face.
Now, diet is probably very important. I'd say eating properly as a kid increases your chances of developing correctly. But these blanket statements like "all", "every", "never" etc are ridiculous. And if a theory can't explain all results, then it simply isn't true. It might not be entirely false, but sound science has to explain every case. The only way to do that, with jaws, is to admit phenotype = genotype + environment. It's both, and my guess is that the affect environment has over phenotype is determined by genetic predisposition/sensitivity.
we can't get too hung up on the generalizations. it doesn't at all take away from the very real fact that the human face is incredibly vulnerable to the environment during childhood.
the jaw is just one feature and isn't always affected by abnormal growth. the bite may be preserved but the jaw itself could be underdeveloped.
i dont think diet is that important tbh. pacifiers/oral posture are the worst, most decent dentists and ortho will tell you this.
@euphoria
as far as the cheekbones go, what we do know is their development is tied directly to the upper jaw.
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remember everyone's growth is different. there are too many variables. im not sure if im on board with the mouth breathing claim, that in and of itself shouldnt cause lasting damage. however mouth breathing could involve a tongue thrust and that can mess with the teeth and palate development. to what degree again all depends.
also, you can experience abnormal growth and the class of your jaw may not change. the bite can also be superficially corrected with braces but doesn't undo the damage done to the rest of the face.
we can't get too hung up on the generalizations. it doesn't at all take away from the very real fact that the human face is incredibly vulnerable to the environment during childhood.
the jaw is just one feature and isn't always affected by abnormal growth. the bite may be preserved but the jaw itself could be underdeveloped.
i dont think diet is that important tbh. pacifiers/oral posture are the worst, most decent dentists and ortho will tell you this.
@euphoria
as far as the cheekbones go, what we do know is their development is tied directly to the upper jaw.
Tongue thrusting f**ked me over bad. What I don't understand is what makes someone more prone to tongue thrusting than someone else
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Tongue thrusting f**ked me over bad. What I don't understand is what makes someone more prone to tongue thrusting than someone else
it would be helpful to look at images of your hard and soft palate to see how it developed. tongue thrust can mess up the teeth (generally fixable) but i dont know if it can harm the rest of the face in a disastrous way.
problem is bad growth may go undiagnosed or unrecognized because the difference may appear subtle compared to someone normal. but a few mm in the wrong direction and it can do a number on your appearance and function.
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it would be helpful to look at images of your hard and soft palate to see how it developed. tongue thrust can mess up the teeth (generally fixable) but i dont know if it can harm the rest of the face in a disastrous way.
problem is bad growth may go undiagnosed or unrecognized because the difference may appear subtle compared to someone normal. but a few mm in the wrong direction and it can do a number on your appearance and function.
I
Geez if it's not the thrust then I I have no idea wth it is that caused it but it seems like tracing the origins of it could be paramount to preventing/alleviating it
Also I took quality pics that would probably clearly identify the issues but don't want to post them ;D
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I
Geez if it's not the thrust then I I have no idea wth it is that caused it but it seems like tracing the origins of it could be paramount to preventing/alleviating it
Also I took quality pics that would probably clearly identify the issues but don't want to post them ;D
if the origin is growth at a fundamental level then there isnt much of a point. you cant re-build cheekbones or produce horizontal/forward growth. jaw surgery+bone grafting can fix you from a surgical perspective but nothing beyond it.
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if the origin is growth at a fundamental level then there isnt much of a point. you cant re-build cheekbones or produce horizontal/forward growth. jaw surgery+bone grafting can fix you from a surgical perspective but nothing beyond it.
What about the future? Procedures like DO may be what we've been looking for but they seem rudimentary at this point
Also I heard the skull can continue to grow up through 24-25 (possibly later if late puberty like I had), will this not be meaningful growth?
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What about the future? Procedures like DO may be what we've been looking for but they seem rudimentary at this point
Also I heard the skull can continue to grow up through 24-25 (possibly later if late puberty like I had), will this not be meaningful growth?
i cant picture the science since the bones are ossified. i dont now about 24-25 lol but the most important growth is 0-12 when face is still malleable and the bones are soft. i cant see how d.o can recreate growth in a way you are looking for. maybe someday it will be better than jaw surgery but it will still be surgery and just a fix not a cure.
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i cant picture the science since the bones are ossified. i dont now about 24-25 lol but the most important growth is 0-12 when face is still malleable and the bones are soft. i cant see how d.o can recreate growth in a way you are looking for. maybe someday it will be better than jaw surgery but it will still be surgery and just a fix not a cure.
well the bones are ossified but d.o. means NEW bone growth, separating the current bone and allowing new bone to grow in the gap between the separation, regardless of ossification.
The idea seems to be exactly what's needed for you and I, I imagine the only thing that's held it back thus far is the execution.
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well the bones are ossified but d.o. means NEW bone growth, separating the current bone and allowing new bone to grow in the gap between the separation, regardless of ossification.
The idea seems to be exactly what's needed for you and I, I imagine the only thing that's held it back thus far is the execution.
but it's very minor and subtle compared to natural growth. in the case of vertical growth that affects the upper and midface d.o is not going to reproduce natural growth. it's not a competitor.
if your bones elongated d.o/jaw surgery cant change that. impaction will be minimal in terms of how it affects proportions.
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but it's very minor and subtle compared to natural growth. in the case of vertical growth that affects the upper and midface d.o is not going to reproduce natural growth. it's not a competitor.
if your bones elongated d.o/jaw surgery cant change that. impaction will be minimal in terms of how it affects proportions.
Is there that many mm that stands between my situation and natural growth? doesn't seem like it. I'm not expecting Hollywood cheeks, I just want normal, actual existent ones.
Isn't the minor and subtle change of d.o. just a current limitation of it's capabilities? or is there a universal aspect to it that prevent's it's lengthening of bone beyond a certain degree? I'm not saying it's my current salvation, only that it has future potential.
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Is there that many mm that stands between my situation and natural growth? doesn't seem like it. I'm not expecting Hollywood cheeks, I just want normal, actual existent ones.
Isn't the minor and subtle change of d.o. just a current limitation of it's capabilities? or is there a universal aspect to it that prevent's it's lengthening of bone beyond a certain degree? I'm not saying it's my current salvation, only that it has future potential.
i dont know what hollywood cheeks are, high/low/flat/no cheekbones aren't necessarily bad things, individual features don't matter that much.
surgery cannot recreate childhood growth. that timeline is over. individual features can be meddled with such as the jaw but your bone structure is basically stone. your face is like jenga puzzle only so many pieces can be messed with before it becomes unstable.
it would be cool if you had a twin.
you have cheekbones they are just set low.
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i dont know what hollywood cheeks are, high/low/flat/no cheekbones aren't necessarily bad things, individual features don't matter that much.
surgery cannot recreate childhood growth. that timeline is over. individual features can be meddled with such as the jaw but your bone structure is basically stone. your face is like jenga puzzle only so many pieces can be messed with before it becomes unstable.
it would be cool if you had a twin.
you have cheekbones they are just set low.
figure of speech, my cheekbones may as well not exist. having a twin would be a depressing reminder of what could've been
I like your jenga puzzle analogy :D probably some truth to that
I'm worried that I'll overhype the possibilities of jaw surgery. In some pics it looks like it's the only thing throwing off my face, in other pics my entire face looks like a mess. can't figure out which is true to reality and which is lens distortion
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I'm worried that I'll overhype the possibilities of jaw surgery. In some pics it looks like it's the only thing throwing off my face, in other pics my entire face looks like a mess. can't figure out which is true to reality and which is lens distortion
youd need to take a high-resolution photo at rest. you probably by habit take photos posing a certain way, avoiding specific angles like the plague....so you forget what you really look like. you might avoid photos all together.
it's important to look now as hard as that sounds. after surgery you'll be looking much more closely and you may be unprepared if you weren't aware of your appearance before surgery. that's essential in managing expectations.
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youd need to take a high-resolution photo at rest. you probably by habit take photos posing a certain way, avoiding specific angles like the plague....so you forget what you really look like. you might avoid photos all together.
it's important to look now as hard as that sounds. after surgery you'll be looking much more closely and you may be unprepared if you weren't aware of your appearance before surgery. that's essential in managing expectations.
but at what angle? at what distance?
my 3/4s doesnt actually look too bad, my front from arm's length away looks like complete s**t. I guess that's not a good sign?
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but at what angle? at what distance?
my 3/4s doesnt actually look too bad, my front from arm's length away looks like complete s**t. I guess that's not a good sign?
the point is you are aware though probably isnt super healthy to have such a low opinion of yourself LOL.
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Diet helps produce sex hormones amongst other things, its clearly a factor
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with the camera to take selfies on my iphone i look ugly and vertical faced, with the "normal one" still on the iphone i look better and in photo booth i almost look decent...what's the truth?
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the majority of ugly people that I see outside and online have normal Class I bites and proper jaw alignment
interesting enough I have seen dozens and dozens of girls who are getting ready for surgery (youtube v-blogs) with moderate to severe Class 2 and 3 malocclusion who are still quite attractive pre-op
being attractive is much more deeper and complicated than having a perfect occlusion
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Agreeeeee
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Yea the vertical vs horizontal growth is frequently referred to by the orthotropics folk. I am critical of many classic orthodontics, but I'm not really convinced the orthotropic approach is much better. There is a lot of online advertisements for it but little research to back up their claims.
orthotropics seems a bit suspect. however the behavior of orthodontists can appear almost criminal. i imagine there is a huge financial incentive to stifle any research that might challenge conventional orthodontic philosophy.
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well the bones are ossified but d.o. means NEW bone growth, separating the current bone and allowing new bone to grow in the gap between the separation, regardless of ossification.
The idea seems to be exactly what's needed for you and I, I imagine the only thing that's held it back thus far is the execution.
With HGH you can experience some facial bone growth post puberty (well it can thicken the bones). This isn't recommended, though, because it is systemic and can have many other negative side effects.
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With HGH you can experience some facial bone growth post puberty (well it can thicken the bones). This isn't recommended, though, because it is systemic and can have many other negative side effects.
i know some actual bodybuilders who've used it. let me just tell you. that s**t will f**k you up seriously. like you'll begin to resemble a garden gnome. seriously freaky s**t like weird distended stomachs even though you're super ripped.
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if mouth breathing causes retrognathism what causes prognathism? jaw clenching as a kid? what about microgenia? slamming your chin against a pull bar during PE class?
to quote CK: abnormal/improper growth must be addressed ASAP, at a very young age (6/7/8 years old)
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if mouth breathing causes retrognathism what causes prognathism? jaw clenching as a kid? what about microgenia? slamming your chin against a pull bar during PE class?
to quote CK: abnormal/improper growth must be addressed ASAP, at a very young age (6/7/8 years old)
personally i dont think mouth breathing alone does anything..rather it is a sign of something else. improper tongue posture such as tongue thrust can lead to an open bite and if one doesnt address the tongue thrust i would imagine it could do heavy damage after 15-20 years.
if the tongue doesnt form the palate than the upper jaw wont develop properly.
linking retrognathism and prognathism as related growth-wise is a mistake imo...they might not be necessarily inversed in terms of what causes those conditions to evolve.
any of these kinds of behavioral problems begin at age 0...if decides to mouth breath as a teenager i dont think it is going to end in a jaw or facial deformity.
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personally i dont think mouth breathing alone does anything..rather it is a sign of something else. improper tongue posture such as tongue thrust can lead to an open bite and if one doesnt address the tongue thrust i would imagine it could do heavy damage after 15-20 years.
if the tongue doesnt form the palate than the upper jaw wont develop properly.
linking retrognathism and prognathism as related growth-wise is a mistake imo...they might not be necessarily inversed in terms of what causes those conditions to evolve.
any of these kinds of behavioral problems begin at age 0...if decides to mouth breath as a teenager i dont think it is going to end in a jaw or facial deformity.
speech therapy will only do so much as far as correcting tongue thrusting, the only real way to address this issue is by creating proper room in one's mouth
there is this blog entry by a well known otorhinologist where he basically goes off on the whole rhinoplasty fad which was partly created by those plastic surgery reality TV shows, basically he says that he has a bunch of patients coming in who had a septoplasty and turbinoplasty who still suffered from breathing problems/sleep apnea after surgery because *GRASP* a narrow airway is a narrow airway
again abnormal/improper growth must be spotted and addressed ASAP
(http://i.imgur.com/5eTELqy.jpg)
^ Prof MM
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speech therapy will only do so much as far as correcting tongue thrusting, the only real way to address this issue is by creating proper room in one's mouth
we also cant ignore the fact that one can develop a tongue thrust in spite of having sufficient room in the mouth.
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with the camera to take selfies on my iphone i look ugly and vertical faced, with the "normal one" still on the iphone i look better and in photo booth i almost look decent...what's the truth?
Thats because its a wide angle lense which causes a distortion. To get a more accurate picture with the iphone, stay 3m away from the camera. Or buy a system camera and use a lense with a focal length between 85-130 mm. The differense is huge.
Example below.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/09/article-0-0EBB191600000578-201_634x378.jpg)
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I wouldn't compare eyes with a lense.
"One recent photography book I was browsing through repeated the oft-made claim that a 50mm lens most closely matches that which our eyes see, the so-called "normal" lens. The first problem with this, of course, is that everyone's eyes are a little bit different. More to the point, the eye/brain connection includes a number of subtle features, such as peripheral vision and near-constant reorienting and focusing. In general, I find that I "see" about a 24mm-equivalent field of view, with my vision concentrated on the equivalent of anything from a 80mm to 300mm lens (and this range has narrowed as I grow older). (For those that are curious, most human eyes are about 16mm in focal length and the pupil's iris can manage effective apertures of from about f/2 to f/11.)"
If using a 50mm on full frame for a head shot, filling the frame, you will be pretty close to your camera and will have a lot of perspective distortion (big nose, tiny ears). Another option is to have some distance but then crop the image, but that will give you lower quality. An 85mm or even longer would be a better choice for any head shot.
And a funny thing I found out about how our brain can adapt to the signals from our eyes.
"Psychologist George M. Stratton conducted, in the 1890s, experiments in which he tested the theory of perceptual adaptation.[2] In one experiment, he wore a reversing glasses for 21½ hours over three days, with no change in his vision. After removing the glasses, "normal vision was restored instantaneously and without any disturbance in the natural appearance or position of objects."[2]
On a later experiment, Stratton wore the glasses for eight whole days. By day four, the images seen through the instrument were still upside down. However, on day five, images appeared upright until he concentrated on them; then they became inverted again. By having to concentrate on his vision to turn it upside down again, especially when he knew images were hitting his retinas in the opposite orientation as normal, Stratton deduced his brain had reprocessed his vision and adapted to the changes in vision."
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guys the only camera i got is my iphone's 4 s. I tried standing off from some metres.
At the end of the day i think i was good looking before all of this and it's just f**kin driving me crazy. i'll just regret my face FOREVER.
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The choice of focal length affects only the framing of the subject in an image. If you have the same distance to the camera while using 50mm or 85mm the perspective (compression) will be the same. So I would rather use 85mm or higher to fill the frame as much as possible instead of cropping. But I guess it's a matter of taste.
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Thats because its a wide angle lense which causes a distortion. To get a more accurate picture with the iphone, stay 3m away from the camera. Or buy a system camera and use a lense with a focal length between 85-130 mm. The differense is huge.
Example below.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/09/article-0-0EBB191600000578-201_634x378.jpg)
Wow that is weird never saw anything like that before
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The mouth-breathing theory is interesting. I suffered from chronic sinusitis as a child and as a result constantly had a blocked nose, forcing me to breath through my mouth. I remember also reading something about the effect of mouth breathing on facial growth in children and I have to say, I think there has to be some sort of correlation.
http://www.buteykochildren.com/mouth_breathing_and_facial_development.php (http://www.buteykochildren.com/mouth_breathing_and_facial_development.php)