jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: Lazlo on March 15, 2017, 07:53:35 PM
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Yeah so like I'm pretty unimpressed with everything right now. Sailer is a bonehead who tries to claim he can do a TRUE FORCE TRANSFORMATION (TFT) but really his results are too Frankensteinish and mugwump gism. Everyone else is too conservative.
I sort of think Gunson (Since Arnett doesn't practice anymore) may be the only one who can do a really nice good strong lower jaw advancement. I unfortunately had too little advancement of lower jaw --should have almost double. So I may pursue a redo in the near future if I get the money.
But what else? Anyone know anything for scar healing and acne scars? And beauty in general.
I WANT TO BE BEAUTIFUL AND DANCE IN THE RAIN!!!!!!
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Weren't you getting a something done with Sinn for your mid-face next? Heck like 6 months post op IIRC
Also I keep forgetting so if you're going to respond to this message I'll also ask here - what was your advancement at the pogonion? Like Gunson only has my technical jaw advancement at 9mm, but you have to add in like posterior downgrafting amount and sg to get to the total pogonion advancement.
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Weren't you getting a something done with Sinn for your mid-face next? Heck like 6 months post op IIRC
Also I keep forgetting so if you're going to respond to this message I'll also ask here - what was your advancement at the pogonion? Like Gunson only has my technical jaw advancement at 9mm, but you have to add in like posterior downgrafting amount and sg to get to the total pogonion advancement.
no idea bro. i think it was like 4-5 mm jaw advancement but another 10 mm of SG so yeah it made a difference, but gave me more of a big chin than an strong jaw if you know what i mean. and yeah i was planning on doing something mid-face but I'm waiting till the fall now cause of cash and other reasons.
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Sinn told me any maxilla revision (which you would also need to do if you want to revise your jaw surgery) would not be possible after an lf3.
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ya sailers also like 73 years old... dont know how fine motor skills deteriorate but i know my grampas fork shakes when hes eating.
I think if you want a bimax revision you should speak with sinn to see what he thinks. other than that i think gunson would be the only answer.
i have a really good skin program. its not cheap, but its a friggen miraculous for acne discolouration, works especially well for my skin tone (class 3 ish) : Basically, Fraxel laser if youre scars are deep, VIVA if its just hyperpigmented. followed by microneedling and PRP, and finish it off with sculptra for wrinkles or nasiolabial folds, or craters. theres a lil bit of downtime but you literally end with baby soft skin.
what about a Sailer reverse facelift?
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Sinn told me any maxilla revision (which you would also need to do if you want to revise your jaw surgery) would not be possible after an lf3.
OMG
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OMG
If you were to revise with a massive CCW, much of your genio would have to be undone as well. And then more f**king braces.
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If you were to revise with a massive CCW, much of your genio would have to be undone as well. And then more f**king braces.
I know dude it's kind of got me so down that i don't even want to think about it anymore.
I mean I clearly have no way of objectively saying Gunson/Arnett would have been better ---I've seen a bunch of their results I really didn't like. And I am a bit pissed that Dr. S switched plans on me at the last minute.
Though of all of that said I have a feeling my nose is so big the genio could stay in place cause it'd still be big enough to balance things out. f**king braces.
I'm going to have to live out the I guess the rest of my life for now with this f**king jaw --oh and for the most part none of this is Dr. Sinn's fault but my ortho who did bicuspid extractions which TOTALLY, and I MEAN TOTALLY f**ked up both my face and my bite and etc. etc. and there's no way I'd ever go through the whole process of bicuspid replacement It's brutal.
I'm going to have to wait till they can clone teeth and I'll get a whole new set cloned and double jaw expansion in one surgery fell swoop --I mean if in the next couple of decades that ever becomes a realistic possibility. But with all the biotech everyone is always blabbering about one could imagine such things will be possible by the 2030s????
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If it is just a lower jaw issue , why not pursue a chin wing?
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If it is just a lower jaw issue , why not pursue a chin wing?
Greyandblue who has had one didn't think I would be a good candidate for it. Don't know why he said that though. Plus I'd just like to have more volume and a wider airway.
You know even though Sinn told Ploskoplus that it may not necessarily be true. Gunson ain't no slouch. Though I'd like to know more.
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The volume and wider airway are definitely valid reasons to possibly revise.
And It is great that Grey & blue shares his knowledge here but are you dismissing the applicability of chin wing to improve your jawline just on his counsel?
I think if you can you should talk with some surgeons who do the procedure. I have heard of it being very potent in some cases where it was added to bimax.
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I do wonder how people with massive CCW rotations get on years after surgery. I've seen people complain about aching joints. But CCW seemed absolutely necessary in your case. Seems like Sinn just did linear advancements to undo the damage of your extractions and the genioolasty to camouflage the recession. I expected better of him.
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I do wonder how people with massive CCW rotations get on years after surgery. I've seen people complain about aching joints. But CCW seemed absolutely necessary in your case. Seems like Sinn just did linear advancements to undo the damage of your extractions and the genioolasty to camouflage the recession. I expected better of him.
Most surgeons are like him. Can't blame his age either because Arnett is about Sinn's age.
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Why didn't you go with A/G, Lazlo? Price?
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If you were to revise with a massive CCW, much of your genio would have to be undone as well. And then more f**king braces.
In one of Lazlo's first post op threads here, I thought he had a large posterior downgraft and mandiblur advancement of like 6mm. If I follow the pattern with Gunson's ceph, that means about 6mm jaw + say 7mm posterior downgraft, so roughly 13mm at the pogonion. Add in the 10mm SG and he's at 23mm at the pogonion. Not sure why Lazlo can't find out what Sinn actually performed also. Like Sinn doesn't know? Not sure if that key missing info is reflective of Sinn or not. But if he just got a 4-5mm straight jaw advancement, +10mm SG, ya that's reeeeally not optimal. At least you kept your lower lip movement function with that massive SG.
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ditterbo I've pm'd you, file size of my post-op ceph is to larage and I have no idea how to read it.
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I know I'm going to sound like I've gone crazy, but I'm starting to think all of this stuff is a waste of time guys. If you're massively deformed, jaw surgery is a treatment option. Otherwise, if you can wait - wait.
In like 10-15 years the whole medical field is going to get massively reformed by AI: deepmind, neural nets, everyone is ramping up big time on this stuff. It might sound unrelated to health or aesthetics, but will offer ultra precise diagnoses and treatments. Google and everyone else in AI are starting to focus on medical research. This really is the only way systemic problems can be accurately diagnosed and treated. Going through with many medieval bone cutting operations and foreign implants just isn't enough and often (if not every time) causes problems that are difficult to live with (undercorrects, overcorrects, or leaves you worse off). And they are usually just a small piece of the big picture in terms of correction.
It sounds scifi - but it really is beginning on a large scale. Tissue engineering, synthesis and repair will just be on a different level entirely. Current surgery is just all just marketing masquerading around on these archaic procedures. So, as long as you aren't debilitated by your jaw or whatever, just wait it out! Stop thinking about how to salvage your issues with a laundry list of operations! Surgeons are just normal, dumb people like the rest of us... and you most likely will have complications.
(once again, I don't think I've lost my mind - haha)
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I know I'm going to sound like I've gone crazy, but I'm starting to think all of this stuff is a waste of time guys. If you're massively deformed, jaw surgery is a treatment option. Otherwise, if you can wait - wait.
In like 10-15 years the whole medical field is going to get massively reformed by AI: deepmind, neural nets, everyone is ramping up big time on this stuff. It might sound unrelated to health or aesthetics, but will offer ultra precise diagnoses and treatments. Google and everyone else in AI are starting to focus on medical research. This really is the only way systemic problems can be accurately diagnosed and treated. Going through with many medieval bone cutting operations and foreign implants just isn't enough and often (if not every time) causes problems that are difficult to live with (undercorrects, overcorrects, or leaves you worse off). And they are usually just a small piece of the big picture in terms of correction.
It sounds scifi - but it really is beginning on a large scale. Tissue engineering, synthesis and repair will just be on a different level entirely. Current surgery is just all just marketing masquerading around on these archaic procedures. So, as long as you aren't debilitated by your jaw or whatever, just wait it out! Stop thinking about how to salvage your issues with a laundry list of operations! Surgeons are just normal, dumb people like the rest of us... and you most likely will have complications.
(once again, I don't think I've lost my mind - haha)
I can show you posts from the early 00s, of people on hair loss forums banking on the "amazing" advancements that were happening with biomed technology, just wait 5 years. 5 years later.... These guys are almost to market!.... 5 years later.... The cure is here.... 5 years later... guess what 2 years in of the next 5 year period and the best the market has to offer is a rehash of technology that has existed since the 1960s - no joke
Most of the s**t you read about biomed is purely marketing hype - its also why investors are jumping ship from biomed and treating it as a bubble that is going to pop any day now.
You can call me a cynic, but really i'm just being pragmatic: the known factor is that a good surgeon can make you look better somewhat to significantly at the cost of risk of nerve damage or functional issues. The unknown factor is "waiting" through your youth for the possibility that some great revolutionary advancement will rear its head. Not I sir.
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I can show you posts from the early 00s, of people on hair loss forums banking on the "amazing" advancements that were happening with biomed technology, just wait 5 years. 5 years later.... These guys are almost to market!.... 5 years later.... The cure is here.... 5 years later... guess what 2 years in of the next 5 year period and the best the market has to offer is a rehash of technology that has existed since the 1960s - no joke
Most of the s**t you read about biomed is purely marketing hype - its also why investors are jumping ship from biomed and treating it as a bubble that is going to pop any day now.
You can call me a cynic, but really i'm just being pragmatic: the known factor is that a good surgeon can make you look better somewhat to significantly at the cost of risk of nerve damage or functional issues. The unknown factor is "waiting" through your youth for the possibility that some great revolutionary advancement will rear its head. Not I sir.
Perfectly understandable position. At this point, it's normal to be ultra cynical.
But, the paradigm shift is AI - which is quickly becoming a multi-trillion dollar industry. We are currently so limited at analyzing massive amounts of data without AI assistance, which has been the cause of such slow progress in many fields in recent years. I work in the tech industry, so maybe I'm just getting swept up in the craze, but people are really excited and enthusiastic about this (and people are flocking to this field). Many people think a conservative estimate for something as broad as AGI is by 2030. If that's true, progress would be a near vertical at that point - but of course we can't know every road block we'll run into - and something less disruptive might even be preferable. We're talking unprecedented job displacement.
And that's what is at the center of all this. You're talking about a small number of personnel looking under a microscope versus astounding amounts of data and processing power. It's a completely different approach to the problem. So yeah, if you can't wait and still have a lot of faith in something that hasn't changed much in 30+ years, by all means. But, it's analogous to eye balling the problem with a hacksaw from my perspective.
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Man, this is so whack. Both PPSK and JUSKEN are right.
I have this hope and faith that in 10 years ( I mean I'll be OLD by then, but regardless) everything will change and there will be significantly cooler better things.
But then I've seen forums for acne scar improvements and hairloss where PPSK is is right they were banking on things being radically different in the 90s and 00s and basically we have the same s**t. Even in 2013 you see things like wow scientists can grow teeth it's just a matter of years before it's available. Well listen you prob won't see it even by 2030 so what does "years" mean in this context.
But it's true. Jaw surgery is a completely medieval procedure the way it is currently practiced. I mean sometimes I feel my face and I feel like its been akin to a recovery from a car accident.
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Perfectly understandable position. At this point, it's normal to be ultra cynical.
But, the paradigm shift is AI - which is quickly becoming a multi-trillion dollar industry. We are currently so limited at analyzing massive amounts of data without AI assistance, which has been the cause of such slow progress in many fields in recent years. I work in the tech industry, so maybe I'm just getting swept up in the craze, but people are really excited and enthusiastic about this (and people are flocking to this field). Many people think a conservative estimate for something as broad as AGI is by 2030. If that's true, progress would be a near vertical at that point - but of course we can't know every road block we'll run into - and something less disruptive might even be preferable. We're talking unprecedented job displacement.
And that's what is at the center of all this. You're talking about a small number of personnel looking under a microscope versus astounding amounts of data and processing power. It's a completely different approach to the problem. So yeah, if you can't wait and still have a lot of faith in something that hasn't changed much in 30+ years, by all means. But, it's analogous to eye balling the problem with a hacksaw in my perspective.
oh man, my prayers are that you're right. even though its too late for me.
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IMO there is simply nothing to data mine in the case of jaw surgery. There should be a massive data base of surgery cases, so all surgeons have access to all kinds of cases and outcomes. No such thing exists. Heck they don't even follow up their own cases more than a year out. We don't even know what will happen to that hardware in our faces 30 years out.
Surgery is not a science, it's a damn craft. I think they like to keep it that way.
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Lol. AI changing jaw surgery by 2030. Thanks for the laugh.
Didn't say jaw surgery specifically, but if AI isn't strongly incorporated in most tasks we do by then I'd be very surprised. Tell you what, you'll definitely have a reading comprehension assistant by then :P
Anyway, just makes me feel better to share this info with people planning on doing lots of surgeries they'll likely regret. I've already gone down the road of jaw surgery (got statistically a good result - with some light nerve damage) and I think I've learned everything I need to know about it...
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Didn't say jaw surgery specifically, but if AI isn't strongly incorporated in most tasks we do by then I'd be very surprised. Tell you what, you'll definitely have a reading comprehension assistant by then :P
Anyway, just makes me feel better to share this info with people planning on doing lots of surgeries they'll likely regret. I've already gone down the road of jaw surgery (got statistically a good result - with some light nerve damage) and I think I've learned everything I need to know about it...
Yeah I appreciate what you're saying. I feel like orthodontics is one place where changes really need to take place.
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IMO there is simply nothing to data mine in the case of jaw surgery. There should be a massive data base of surgery cases, so all surgeons have access to all kinds of cases and outcomes. No such thing exists. Heck they don't even follow up their own cases more than a year out. We don't even know what will happen to that hardware in our faces 30 years out.
Surgery is not a science, it's a damn craft. I think they like to keep it that way.
Deep Neural Networks (current tech) - it would be an AI assistant to a doctor. You could pass massive amounts of data into this for diagnostics, from facial aesthetics, tissue analysis, X-rays everything. The more the better. This in itself wouldn't replace having a surgeon.
AGI - further into the future - would replace the surgeon entirely.
ASI - who cares about your face at that point I think.
Haha anyway, this is starting to sound like a scifi movie plot.
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Deep Neural Networks (current tech) - it would be an AI assistant to a doctor. You could pass massive amounts of data into this for diagnostics, from facial aesthetics, tissue analysis, X-rays everything. The more the better. This in itself wouldn't replace having a surgeon.
AGI - further into the future - would replace the surgeon entirely.
ASI - who cares about your face at that point I think.
Haha anyway, this is starting to sound like a scifi movie plot.
Yeah, the one thing we can all agree on is the world will definitely be a RADICALLY different place by 2030. I envy those of you in your 20s.
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Deep Neural Networks (current tech) - it would be an AI assistant to a doctor. You could pass massive amounts of data into this for diagnostics, from facial aesthetics, tissue analysis, X-rays everything. The more the better. This in itself wouldn't replace having a surgeon.
AGI - further into the future - would replace the surgeon entirely.
ASI - who cares about your face at that point I think.
Haha anyway, this is starting to sound like a scifi movie plot.
When you say you "work in tech" are you like a computer programmer for a tech company or like some retail dude at a kiosk for cell phones in a strip mall?
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When you say you "work in tech" are you like a computer programmer for a tech company or like some retail dude at a kiosk for cell phones in a strip mall?
Haha damn Lazlo, I did those images for you. I get it, you're a busy guy...
I work with engineers, so I'm not doing AI myself, but I'm close to it...
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Haha damn Lazlo, I did those images for you. I get it, you're a busy guy...
I work with engineers, so I'm not doing AI myself, but I'm close to it...
Oh dude, I'm so sorry. My bad. I totally forgot who you were. And the other stuff.... Don't worry a Lannister....