jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: Lazlo on April 15, 2018, 01:30:43 AM
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Okay, so like I'm not stupid.
But there may be some of you much, much smarter than me when it comes to computer science, engineering that type of thing.
I want to know from those of you who are familiar with nanotechnology, exponential growth etc. etc.
to explain why if what Kurzweil says is true here then do we not see far greater advancement in medical science? Is this because computer modelling and that type of thing hasn't fully integrated into the medical community?
I think medicine right now is very very rudimentary and hasn't improved much since the nineteenth century. Of course, this may not be true, there are SOME advancements. But do you think the type of truly rapid progress, that Kurzweil is speaking about here in this video. I mean if he's predicting AI by 2030 then for f**k's sake --even if we don't have full AI we'll have f**king amazing computers by then. So how can we expect medicine to benefit or be influenced by this type of progress?
Please, only people with advanced undergraduate or graduate degress in HARD SCIENCE and TECH respond. I don't wanna hear from any jack-offs. I'm just interested in when something like CT-Xioloc bone implants can be made your own bone (from some small sample or whatever).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1339&v=oPyCHwPS04E
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My methodology in understanding these things is to follow the money. Biopharma, Biotech and healthcare in general are interesting as they behave differently economically than any other sector (youre not going to shop around for the best deal while youre having a heart attack; people spend outside their budgets etc.)
Alot of the cash flow for these business come as annuities, steady consistent payments over time. The intention of biopharma particularly is not to cure disease, but to manage symptoms.
There have been very recent cases of diseases being cured and the result being negative financially for the company (see HCV and Gilead Sciences).
Follow the money.
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Well, I qualify in terms of a degree (undergrad) you want to hear from. Not only that but I also used to know Marvin Minsky, (Kurzweil refers to him) his daughter Margaret and was surrounded by the AI type geniuses at MIT.
However, I disclose that my salient observation, at the time, about the AI 'types' was that these people were NOT the types interested in health and longevity and especially NOT appearance and most certainly were not well rounded (well except for being a ROUND SHAPE) when in came to humanities, art, aesthetics etc.
The people who were going to live longer and look better were the jocks at HARVARD studying the humanities and eating the right foods. In terms of LOOKS (which you are focused on), MIT was basically a HAVEN for the HOMELY. It was a place where one could just be SMART and not have to worry about not being good looking. None of those types had any interest in their LOOKS or anything else 'aesthetic' for that matter.
I'm not sure, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be depending on those types to come up with some breakthrough that is going to make people incredibly handsome or beautiful. IDK, it's just hard for me to fathom how the types LEAST interested in AESTHETICS are going to devote themselves to making people look more beautiful.
Don't get me wrong. I'm sure there will be advancements where implants can be generated from your own bone if that's what you are waiting for. Just don't expect all the highly developed LEFT BRAINED tech whizzes to come up with the RIGHT SHAPE for them.
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THanks Kavan that is fine.
What I want to know however (from someone involved in science) WHEN DO THEY THINK THE NECESSARY INNOVATIONS WILL HAPPEN TO SYNTHESIZE BONE AND TISSUE (SKIN FAT) from you own cells might occur.
Once we have that tech we are FINE. You'll be able to change your face to almost anything. That's all we need. Bio-identical bone and to top it off skin regeneration. I feel like these techs should be out really really soon, no?
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The AI singularity is rapture for nerds.
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THanks Kavan that is fine.
What I want to know however (from someone involved in science) WHEN DO THEY THINK THE NECESSARY INNOVATIONS WILL HAPPEN TO SYNTHESIZE BONE AND TISSUE (SKIN FAT) from you own cells might occur.
Once we have that tech we are FINE. You'll be able to change your face to almost anything. That's all we need. Bio-identical bone and to top it off skin regeneration. I feel like these techs should be out really really soon, no?
They are already on there way to repairing skin and bone tissue with stem cells found in fat.
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/regenerating-body-parts-how-we-can-transform-fat-cells-stem-cells-repair-spinal/
https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/health/fat-stem-cells-fix-wrist-injury-cartilage/index.html
As far as faces go, some of the docs doing fat grafting, (one mover and shaker being sydney coleman) contend that the f/gs to the bone level CAN regenerate into bone.
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Okay, so like I'm not stupid.
But there may be some of you much, much smarter than me when it comes to computer science, engineering that type of thing.
I want to know from those of you who are familiar with nanotechnology, exponential growth etc. etc.
to explain why if what Kurzweil says is true here then do we not see far greater advancement in medical science? Is this because computer modelling and that type of thing hasn't fully integrated into the medical community?
I think medicine right now is very very rudimentary and hasn't improved much since the nineteenth century. Of course, this may not be true, there are SOME advancements. But do you think the type of truly rapid progress, that Kurzweil is speaking about here in this video. I mean if he's predicting AI by 2030 then for f**k's sake --even if we don't have full AI we'll have f**king amazing computers by then. So how can we expect medicine to benefit or be influenced by this type of progress?
Please, only people with advanced undergraduate or graduate degress in HARD SCIENCE and TECH respond. I don't wanna hear from any jack-offs. I'm just interested in when something like CT-Xioloc bone implants can be made your own bone (from some small sample or whatever).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1339&v=oPyCHwPS04E
Lazlo,
I think the fundamental problem is that Moore's Law only applies to the number of semiconductor circuits one can get onto a piece of substrate.
There has never been any "paradigm" even remotely similar to Moore's Law applicable to any other branch of human endeavor so far as I know.
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The AI singularity is rapture for nerds.
I'm not asking for the full blown singularity. I'm just asking about rate of progress in terms of biological regeneration.
As soon as we can custom design implants out of real bone (grown from a patient biopsy or whatever) then we can literally re-design a human face into whatever we want.
And I personally can't imagine given recent advances, not only in computer modelling of bioligical tissue etc. this could be that far away.
Listen we have Crisp-r, we have companies like epibone and polarity, and many others. Coupled with powerful computing and 3-D bioprinting we've got to have at least rudimentary products like bone and skin available.
I'm not even asking about full blown organs which everyone agrees is not that long away.
What I'm saying is that the current paradigm of surgery and plastic surgery is based on models that have gone almost unaltered since the bloody 19th century and even earlier back to the renaissance. We're ready for a real sea-change. I'm not asking for the singularity.
Also, Plosko, I asked only people with advanced science degrees respond here which I'm not sure includes your pointless imput.
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Lazlo,
I think the fundamental problem is that Moore's Law only applies to the number of semiconductor circuits one can get onto a piece of substrate.
There has never been any "paradigm" even remotely similar to Moore's Law applicable to any other branch of human endeavor so far as I know.
So I'm aware of that objection. Recently Kurzweil has argued even software has been expanding as fast as Moore's law so we're having a kind of integration effect.
Regardless, I understand that objection. But the truth is we ARE developing companies and experiments that are attempting to go beyond the current surgery paradign through biological regeneration.
As I said in the original post. Anyone here (and there must be many) in medicine, or scientific research have any news or projections for us on this front?
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I'm not asking for the full blown singularity. I'm just asking about rate of progress in terms of biological regeneration.
As soon as we can custom design implants out of real bone (grown from a patient biopsy or whatever) then we can literally re-design a human face into whatever we want.
And I personally can't imagine given recent advances, not only in computer modelling of bioligical tissue etc. this could be that far away.
Listen we have Crisp-r, we have companies like epibone and polarity, and many others. Coupled with powerful computing and 3-D bioprinting we've got to have at least rudimentary products like bone and skin available.
I'm not even asking about full blown organs which everyone agrees is not that long away.
What I'm saying is that the current paradigm of surgery and plastic surgery is based on models that have gone almost unaltered since the bloody 19th century and even earlier back to the renaissance. We're ready for a real sea-change. I'm not asking for the singularity.
Also, Plosko, I asked only people with advanced science degrees respond here which I'm not sure includes your pointless imput.
No. Being able to make face implants with (your own) bone does not necessarily imply the DESIGN will conform to 'anything you want'. No more than the design of CUSTOM implants with NON BONE (but bio-compatible materials) will turn a potato face into Gandi. Although your own bone is certainly preferable to artificial materials, you attribute too much MAGIC to the material. The limiting factor is the same as it is today with custom implants which is not only the DESIGN of them (the technology to produce them does not guarantee that the design of them will kick up exactly what you have in your mind's eye to see in the mirror) but also the LIMITATIONS of your OWN bone and soft tissue they are placed over to accommodate them. So, as far as 'your own bone' goes, in particular your own face bones as they are as is, someone's own face bone structure could present LIMITATIONS in getting what you want, just like it does presently with all the high tech custom face implants.
Although I agree that face implants with one's own bone is preferable to artificial materials, especially those averse to artificial materials, it's not something where the material of your own bone is going to 'mean' unlimited design capacity to transform someone in the precise way they wish to be transformed.
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No. Being able to make face implants with (your own) bone does not necessarily imply the DESIGN will conform to 'anything you want'. No more than the design of CUSTOM implants with NON BONE (but bio-compatible materials) will turn a potato face into Gandi. Although your own bone is certainly preferable to artificial materials, you attribute too much MAGIC to the material. The limiting factor is the same as it is today with custom implants which is not only the DESIGN of them (the technology to produce them does not guarantee that the design of them will kick up exactly what you have in your mind's eye to see in the mirror) but also the LIMITATIONS of your OWN bone and soft tissue they are placed over to accommodate them. So, as far as 'your own bone' goes, in particular your own face bones as they are as is, someone's own face bone structure could present LIMITATIONS in getting what you want, just like it does presently with all the high tech custom face implants.
Although I agree that face implants with one's own bone is preferable to artificial materials, especially those averse to artificial materials, it's not something where the material of your own bone is going to 'mean' unlimited design capacity to transform someone in the precise way they wish to be transformed.
Fine, agreed I was too optimistic there. But its all I need. If I personally could get custom implants out of something that would become my own bone I know I only need a few tweaks here and there which would take me to the heights of aesthetic ascension.
So when will biological bone implants be available? Science geeks help me! Tim Chalamet, come and get at meh!
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What's the difference really between a custom silicone implant vs a futuristic boney one? Once a boney augmentation becomes available, would the scar capsule left from the old custom silicone implant likely cause irregularities? My few minutes of googling suggests the periosteum doesn't serve much purpose for adults, so it seems OK for there to be no contact between the periosteum and bone. Plosko quoted a doc saying muscles like being attached to bone. So unless muscles get nutrients from the bone, maybe facial muscles won't animate your face quite as much as they would if they were against bone? Like I know with cheek implants, a lot of people struggle to smile "ear-to-ear", as in with the corner edges where their lips meet, due to the implants. I could sure see that being distressful to the patient.
I'm discounting custom medpor implants because of the difficulty that comes in removing them (especially if like bone augmentation materializes) and the collateral damage risk with medpor removal.
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What's the difference really between a custom silicone implant vs a futuristic boney one? Once a boney augmentation becomes available, would the scar capsule left from the old custom silicone implant likely cause irregularities? My few minutes of googling suggests the periosteum doesn't serve much purpose for adults, so it seems OK for there to be no contact between the periosteum and bone. Plosko quoted a doc saying muscles like being attached to bone. So unless muscles get nutrients from the bone, maybe facial muscles won't animate your face quite as much as they would if they were against bone? Like I know with cheek implants, a lot of people struggle to smile "ear-to-ear", as in with the corner edges where their lips meet, due to the implants. I could sure see that being distressful to the patient.
I'm discounting custom medpor implants because of the difficulty that comes in removing them (especially if like bone augmentation materializes) and the collateral damage risk with medpor removal.
so look at the original question and the subject and then look at your response.
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Lol, ouch. I'll show myself out. GL
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Lol, ouch. I'll show myself out. GL
Lol I was just joshing --I get what you're saying but I jus want to know when biological implants will be a thing. Too many cases of infection I personally know and bone erosion so I don't want to ever risk it.
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We’re assuming that the technology is the problem.
The path to bringing a medical device to market poses prodigious challenges.
And even if said product made it to market finding a surgeon, at least in the interim, would likely be difficult. (People who work directly with patients often don’t like new stuff.)
I wouldn’t wait for something that seems to be right around the corner because it’s probably not. The technology may indeed be there, but actually getting it to people (or in this case, getting it inside people) is a very different complexity.
And just a little note: to more directly answer your question…the technology simply isn’t there yet to get you your new custom, “biological bone implants”. We can get stuff to grow, but can’t yet determine if and how it will behave.
Signed, a very sorry but always hopeful, nobody on the Internet.
Hope you’re well, Lazlo.
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We’re assuming that the technology is the problem.
The path to bringing a medical device to market poses prodigious challenges.
And even if said product made it to market finding a surgeon, at least in the interim, would likely be difficult. (People who work directly with patients often don’t like new stuff.)
I wouldn’t wait for something that seems to be right around the corner because it’s probably not. The technology may indeed be there, but actually getting it to people (or in this case, getting it inside people) is a very different complexity.
And just a little note: to more directly answer your question…the technology simply isn’t there yet to get you your new custom, “biological bone implants”. We can get stuff to grow, but can’t yet determine if and how it will behave.
Signed, a very sorry but always hopeful, nobody on the Internet.
Hope you’re well, Lazlo.
Oh okay so basically nothing is going to change and we're f**ked.
You know what pissess me off? I sort of assumed jaw surgery was a reasonably advanced well thought out procedure and was common and there was a lot of expertise.
Its not.
It's f**king primitive. Even the best are prone to TONS of errors and you're quite likely to get a s**t result.
They're not even gonna be doing this s**t in 20 years. We just showed up with our pathetic problems 20 years too early.
What a f**king s**tstorm.
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We haven't seen advancement in anything really. I mean look at internet speeds. They're still s**t! Delivering packages by snail mail. Total s**t. We should have next day drones. Using gasoline when we have the sun. Etc.
Many times there is incentive to keep an old paradigm in place until the $ end of it doesn't make sense anymore. What costs more: jaw surgery + ortho with a lifetime of problems (business), or having a bio face created over night and you're done for life? Even orthos are scared of those 3D printed braces because it has a chance of being much better, cheaper technology. Follow the money, as always.
I understand some of the science, but it's only half the problem. The other half is old guards are in place to protect themselves. A surgeon who went to school and learned how to cut bone is not going to want to go back and learn how to create your custom bio-face when cutting bone is keeping him busy and paying him well.
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We haven't seen advancement in anything really. I mean look at internet speeds. They're still s**t! Delivering packages by snail mail. Total s**t. We should have next day drones. Using gasoline when we have the sun. Etc.
Many times there is incentive to keep an old paradigm in place until the $ end of it doesn't make sense anymore. What costs more: jaw surgery + ortho with a lifetime of problems (business), or having a bio face created over night and you're done for life? Even orthos are scared of those 3D printed braces because it has a chance of being much better, cheaper technology. Follow the money, as always.
I understand some of the science, but it's only half the problem. The other half is old guards are in place to protect themselves. A surgeon who went to school and learned how to cut bone is not going to want to go back and learn how to create your custom bio-face when cutting bone is keeping him busy and paying him well.
oh GJ, bro you're further putting a deathknell into my hopes. But Epibone says that it will release produces by 2025 (I mean I probably won't give a s**t by then, I hope, but yeah....they'll just custom build implants and it won't take new training from a doc to apply that, it'll just be like attaching a medpor implant, but real bone) --so I'm not too worried about the training part. But yeah, all these issues will create inertia to new discoveries.
Goes to show you how important free market competition is to technological advancement. That's why computers improve so swiftly, they're key consumer items with global competition trying to edge out the competition.
That said, for biotech, you can't beat China where a non-idiotic (i.e. non religious and full of s**t) centralized govt. can just mandate that you do s**t without crap like the FDA.
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We haven't seen advancement in anything really. I mean look at internet speeds. They're still s**t! Delivering packages by snail mail. Total s**t. We should have next day drones. Using gasoline when we have the sun. Etc.
Many times there is incentive to keep an old paradigm in place until the $ end of it doesn't make sense anymore. What costs more: jaw surgery + ortho with a lifetime of problems (business), or having a bio face created over night and you're done for life? Even orthos are scared of those 3D printed braces because it has a chance of being much better, cheaper technology. Follow the money, as always.
I understand some of the science, but it's only half the problem. The other half is old guards are in place to protect themselves. A surgeon who went to school and learned how to cut bone is not going to want to go back and learn how to create your custom bio-face when cutting bone is keeping him busy and paying him well.
Yet they still research the future a lot for internet, battery tech, etc. As you said, they keep the old paradigm in place until it makes sense to finally cause a shift.
Research isn't a limiting factor there. Plenty of research.
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oh GJ, bro you're further putting a deathknell into my hopes. But Epibone says that it will release produces by 2025 (I mean I probably won't give a s**t by then, I hope, but yeah....they'll just custom build implants and it won't take new training from a doc to apply that, it'll just be like attaching a medpor implant, but real bone) --so I'm not too worried about the training part. But yeah, all these issues will create inertia to new discoveries.
Goes to show you how important free market competition is to technological advancement. That's why computers improve so swiftly, they're key consumer items with global competition trying to edge out the competition.
That said, for biotech, you can't beat China where a non-idiotic (i.e. non religious and full of s**t) centralized govt. can just mandate that you do s**t without crap like the FDA.
Hope is a good coping mechanism. Its probably "over" for me when it comes to being handsome too despite being only 22.
But I can see how you want to keep your hopes up. Imagine being pumped at still being that handsome man in his 50s. George Clooney type after all these years despite the chance of that being 0.1%. Well its still 0.1% bro!!!
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Hope is a good coping mechanism. Its probably "over" for me when it comes to being handsome too despite being only 22.
But I can see how you want to keep your hopes up. Imagine being pumped at still being that handsome man in his 50s. George Clooney type after all these years despite the chance of that being 0.1%. Well its still 0.1% bro!!!
I dunno, well paradigms about age will change too. 50 used to be f**king senior citizens a few decades ago. The irony is it was perfectly acceptable for a man in his 50s or even 60s to date women in their early 20s back in the 1920s-1950s....well its still acceptable in California and Vegas and places like that.
So who f**king cares. Yeah hope is a good way to cope. Its not that I'm stalling on my life though. I just have ideals I aspire to.
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I dunno, well paradigms about age will change too. 50 used to be f**king senior citizens a few decades ago. The irony is it was perfectly acceptable for a man in his 50s or even 60s to date women in their early 20s back in the 1920s-1950s....well its still acceptable in California and Vegas and places like that.
So who f**king cares. Yeah hope is a good way to cope. Its not that I'm stalling on my life though. I just have ideals I aspire to.
Oh I wasn't talking about acceptance of age, haha. I'm still on technology. I'm saying... I mean, it doesn't hurt to tell yourself that you have finally "made it" after all these years, but tbh it seems like you are in a major coping phase.
What we need is a paradigm shift in acceptance of looks and its affect on how a person lives. Its a very American thing to deny that for pretty much everything and this country's BS "toxic optimism" as I like to call it. That will actually bring demand in hardcore future tech.
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Oh I wasn't talking about acceptance of age, haha. I'm still on technology. I'm saying... I mean, it doesn't hurt to tell yourself that you have finally "made it" after all these years, but tbh it seems like you are in a major coping phase.
What we need is a paradigm shift in acceptance of looks and its affect on how a person lives. Its a very American thing to deny that for pretty much everything and this country's BS "toxic optimism" as I like to call it. That will actually bring demand in hardcore future tech.
No bro, I'm not in a coping phase about looks. My looks are f**king fine and I slay a fair bit. What I'm having a tough time with is aging. In the process of looking at pics of me and other people when they have before and afters. You see pics of them in their 20s and early 30s --they look beautiful, even if they aren't the best looking. Those same people by 40 look f**king disgusting. Why deny it? Yeah older men can get young women, but still as far as looks go you're f**king done for. So aging is the worst thing in the world. It really is. Even good looking people look like s**t by 40-45.
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Anyway so yeah age sucks and makes people look ugly once they hit 35-40 (for women) and men get a bit of leeway if they're better looking or in good shape but its over for them too past 55 then you just become a freak.
But hey, what do you know b*tches. From some study on the internet about implants:
"Any specialty emerges as per needs of the end user. Engineers and Surgeons are leading towards the emergence of a new specialization as bio CAD/CAM that will make possible emergence of patient specific implants that will replicate not only form as it is today but also have mechanical, chemical and physiological properties similar to native tissues they replace and provide an environment for cell differentiation and growth.
Common biomaterials currently used have not changed much overtime even with the ushering in of bio ceramics that are osteoconductive and biopolymers that have mechanical properties closer to natural tissues. There is no one material that can provide a complete solution. The future is regenerative medicine that allows for growth of natural tissues similar to the region of implantation. Advances in material science and synthesis of bone and tissues will lead to a new generation of designer implants that can be named as “integratable implants made for you.” Additive manufacturing which takes manufacturing to a whole new direction without the boundaries of shape and structure and create parts with repeatability will be the future of custom implants manufacture and will widen the spectrum of materials suitable for the purpose. To summarize the future will see more combination alloplastic and autologous materials being used in conjunction to create the next generation craniofacial implants."
As they said, the future is in tissue regeneration for implants. So stop acting like this is never gonna happen. It will and it will make all the bulls**t including the way s**tty jaw surgeries are done obsolete.
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Anyway so yeah age sucks and makes people look ugly once they hit 35-40 (for women) and men get a bit of leeway if they're better looking or in good shape but its over for them too past 55 then you just become a freak.
But hey, what do you know b*tches. From some study on the internet about implants:
"Any specialty emerges as per needs of the end user. Engineers and Surgeons are leading towards the emergence of a new specialization as bio CAD/CAM that will make possible emergence of patient specific implants that will replicate not only form as it is today but also have mechanical, chemical and physiological properties similar to native tissues they replace and provide an environment for cell differentiation and growth.
Common biomaterials currently used have not changed much overtime even with the ushering in of bio ceramics that are osteoconductive and biopolymers that have mechanical properties closer to natural tissues. There is no one material that can provide a complete solution. The future is regenerative medicine that allows for growth of natural tissues similar to the region of implantation. Advances in material science and synthesis of bone and tissues will lead to a new generation of designer implants that can be named as “integratable implants made for you.” Additive manufacturing which takes manufacturing to a whole new direction without the boundaries of shape and structure and create parts with repeatability will be the future of custom implants manufacture and will widen the spectrum of materials suitable for the purpose. To summarize the future will see more combination alloplastic and autologous materials being used in conjunction to create the next generation craniofacial implants."
As they said, the future is in tissue regeneration for implants. So stop acting like this is never gonna happen. It will and it will make all the bulls**t including the way s**tty jaw surgeries are done obsolete.
I've always maintained that the "wall" for women is a bigger coping mech than for men. Like I said, most older men don't look like Clooney etc. And most men bald at around 35-40. I've seen plenty of attractive women who were attractive through that time period.
Anyways I hope the future is bright. I'm close to getting a gf as of now with a particular girl so I'm a bit happier now. But even if I stay with her for 30 years, I will still have the dream of being legit good looking even while staying with her.
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Women can be attractive into their 50s if they stay out of the sun most of their lives and have good skin genetics. It's all about skin quality for them. Once it sags it's over.
Men, too, but it's not as bad. So lucky to have a full head of hair, full beard, etc and great skin. Hair covers up a lot of issues. Someone thought I was 30 the other day. Bless her heart!
Regarding research, yeah, there is research into new surgical techniques (e.g. Distraction, which will be the future), but you see top docs shooting it down rather than trying to improve it. The people trying to improve it are younger med students and doctors who are on the fringe, in general, because they aren't getting great business in the current paradigm. They likely aren't skilled at surgery, so they're in research. That's fine, but we don't have the best minds doing the more important work, which is improving this surgery's predictability. Society is very inefficient; a lot of malivestment. E.g. Our best minds are once again flipping subprime credit on Wall Street instead of fixing real problems. If this is what society rewards then this is the society we'll get.
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Just remember - black don't crack, Asian don't raisin and brown don't frown. Not sure if there's one for white 🤗
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I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, I have my own business and I design custom processors and asics, and in a couple of my designs I incorporated human intelligence. I can tell you the limitations of the hardware itself and the size of coding is substantial. I've seen many robotics that appear on the scene and news tv stations, and we aren't even close to resembling human interactions and the complex thought processes of humans. Sure we can emulate this interaction, but it comes down to how deep we want to go and how far we can progress the technology. IMO As far as why we aren't seeing biotech companies showcasing the ability to regrow site specific cells (stem cells) and proliferation of satellite cells is that a lot of it is in the R&D phases and clinical trials.
BTW moores law failed several years ago, we are already down to 8nm in gate designs, and there is a limit to how small you can go (to the size of atoms) and pack all these transistors into a die because each transistor generates heat, the more you pack in a square centimeter, the more heat it generates, which can be destructive to the overall die.
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We need a market based solution. The best way imo is to spread the truth about orthos and 2018s s**t surgery techniques, particularly for cosmetics. Once people en mass seek better newer solutions, the market will provide them.
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We need a market based solution. The best way imo is to spread the truth about orthos and 2018s s**t surgery techniques, particularly for cosmetics. Once people en mass seek better newer solutions, the market will provide them.
How, lol? Air dropping millions of balloons, hehe?
On another serious note, these bulls**t levels of toxic "everything is great" attitude and denial of the relation of appearance with quality of life needs to die. Only then will society actually create an influx in the demand of these things.
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Women can be attractive into their 50s if they stay out of the sun most of their lives and have good skin genetics. It's all about skin quality for them. Once it sags it's over.
Men, too, but it's not as bad. So lucky to have a full head of hair, full beard, etc and great skin. Hair covers up a lot of issues. Someone thought I was 30 the other day. Bless her heart!
Regarding research, yeah, there is research into new surgical techniques (e.g. Distraction, which will be the future), but you see top docs shooting it down rather than trying to improve it. The people trying to improve it are younger med students and doctors who are on the fringe, in general, because they aren't getting great business in the current paradigm. They likely aren't skilled at surgery, so they're in research. That's fine, but we don't have the best minds doing the more important work, which is improving this surgery's predictability. Society is very inefficient; a lot of malivestment. E.g. Our best minds are once again flipping subprime credit on Wall Street instead of fixing real problems. If this is what society rewards then this is the society we'll get.
And women can also conceal a really bad skull shape and forehead a lot better than men can with hair. There are less things in my opinion that BREAK a woman's appearance than a man's.
A societal shift with accepting looks and how it affects daily life will cause a demand.
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Guys, there's something I gotta come clean on.
I hate the idea of implants. They can break, shift, get infected and I just know you'll be able to feel them --they're not recommended as you age as they stick through and look terrible once your skin loses volume and laxity. All arguments against implants.
But I'll tell you, for sheer aesthetic value in the short term for the young and to provide truly significant augmentation in all three vectors with good balance (now that they're CAD/CAM customizable) nothing beats implants. They're the only things that I've seen provide significant aesthetic acension.
That's why I'm so keen about regenerative medicine and customizable biologic implants. They're going to solve all our problems. Most of us don't need nor ever wanted jaw surgery. We just wanted augmentation without implants.
Maxillofacial surgeons. You're mostly a bunch of f**king retards who can't do s**t right.
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Before anyone gets excited note how results are always "several years away." lol snooooooze its been like that for like thirty years.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/instead-of-filling-cavities-dentists-may-soon-regenerate-teeth1/
Also, the one thing the article DOES get right is that dentistry is still in the "dark ages" with no significant advance for the past 50 years.
TRUTH. Really in all of medicine, but especially dentistry, jaw surgery etc...
I remember when almost a decade ago now Dr. Cameron Clokie told me that they were looking for a laser to do the osteotomies for jaw surgery so as to not disturb the nerves and make precision cuts. Yeah still waiting on that one. Porbably never.
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Before anyone gets excited note how results are always "several years away." lol snooooooze its been like that for like thirty years.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/instead-of-filling-cavities-dentists-may-soon-regenerate-teeth1/
Also, the one thing the article DOES get right is that dentistry is still in the "dark ages" with no significant advance for the past 50 years.
TRUTH. Really in all of medicine, but especially dentistry, jaw surgery etc...
I remember when almost a decade ago now Dr. Cameron Clokie told me that they were looking for a laser to do the osteotomies for jaw surgery so as to not disturb the nerves and make precision cuts. Yeah still waiting on that one. Porbably never.
All dentists do is look for employment opportunities in your mouth.
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All dentists do is look for employment opportunities in your mouth.
Yep, but at least the internet is making everyone aware of that, so they'll have to try harder; maybe even invent something better than the current options. For example, everyone knows extractions are a disaster thanks to the internet. That only happened within the past five years, and I think we helped that narrative here.
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Yep, but at least the internet is making everyone aware of that, so they'll have to try harder; maybe even invent something better than the current options. For example, everyone knows extractions are a disaster thanks to the internet. That only happened within the past five years, and I think we helped that narrative here.
You're absolutely correct----hopefully people will never suffer extractions again.
I think it would be great if we in fact totally boycott double jaw surgery. Tell them they can lose
their goddamn Ferraris and s**t till they man the f**k up and do a better job.
Seriously, my advice to anyone considering jaw surgery. Forget it. You'll end up with so many
ancillary problems it is not worth it. Aesthetically its a trade-off.
The orthodontics alone are f**king retarded. Celebrities with tons of money never straighten their teeth.
I have a feeling its cause there are some very smart people advising them that it will lead to tons of problems.
That's cause orthos look at patients like cash cows. How many f**king patietns can I get into a chair in a day.
f**k THEM. f**k MAX FACS and f**k ORTHOS. They all suck. Its a medieval science. Work motherf**kers!
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I can bet that 100 years from now people will read about Jaw surgery and be like: “They did that then?” , sorta like how we cannot imagine surgeries in 17th century which were done without anaesthesia.
I agree that the most frustrating thing is lack of progress. Jaw surgery is, without a doubt, highly invasive and very medieval procedure.
As for Ray haha, my father happen to know him. Both our families emigrated from Austria in the similiar time. He is maven for sure, but was raised in rather “optimistic” environment. So I wouldnt take his date for a fact.
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Biological implants are okay, but what we really need is a "drug" that aims to stimulate bone growth. Apropo, has anyone ever tried growth hormones (hgh)?
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Biological implants are okay, but what we really need is a "drug" that aims to stimulate bone growth. Apropo, has anyone ever tried growth hormones (hgh)?
I agree that drug would be a great solution..
As for HGH, IIRC it stimulates mandibular growth, and when abused it can cause some pretty bad prognathism.
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I agree that drug would be a great solution..
As for HGH, IIRC it stimulates mandibular growth
Well, and would it work for adults? Sounds like you speak from experience?
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Well, and would it work for adults? Sounds like you speak from experience?
It should.
Look for disease called acromegaly, basically pituitary tumor- body secretes too much of HGH and prognathism is one of the main symptoms.
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It should.
Look for disease called acromegaly, basically pituitary tumor- body secretes too much of HGH and prognathism is one of the main symptoms.
Rondo Hatton had that.
(https://horrorpediadotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/rondo-hatton-600x460.jpg)
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Rondo Hatton had that.
(https://horrorpediadotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/rondo-hatton-600x460.jpg)
Yeah, horrible impact on face tbh.
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Before anyone gets excited note how results are always "several years away." lol snooooooze its been like that for like thirty years.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/instead-of-filling-cavities-dentists-may-soon-regenerate-teeth1/
Also, the one thing the article DOES get right is that dentistry is still in the "dark ages" with no significant advance for the past 50 years.
TRUTH. Really in all of medicine, but especially dentistry, jaw surgery etc...
I remember when almost a decade ago now Dr. Cameron Clokie told me that they were looking for a laser to do the osteotomies for jaw surgery so as to not disturb the nerves and make precision cuts. Yeah still waiting on that one. Porbably never.
What are the hurdles that come for having laser osteotomies without disturbing the nerves and making precision cuts?
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What are the hurdles that come for having laser osteotomies without disturbing the nerves and making precision cuts?
i heard like seven years ago they were looking for a suitable laser. Maybe they never found one.
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i heard like seven years ago they were looking for a suitable laser. Maybe they never found one.
Right, they would probably have to consider the thermodynamics of cutting into bone. Thermal energy will be released as it hits the bone and it would be very important to make sure the bone and surrounding area doesn't overheat. Could be perhaps water cooled via spraying water onto be bone and extracting it. But I don't know much about anatomy to know well enough about it.
I've wondered. Can we move nerves around? What are the hurdles of fixing broken nerves.
Also, ugh I wish I could just transplant my brain into a CRISPR lab grown body.
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Right, they would probably have to consider the thermodynamics of cutting into bone. Thermal energy will be released as it hits the bone and it would be very important to make sure the bone and surrounding area doesn't overheat. Could be perhaps water cooled via spraying water onto be bone and extracting it. But I don't know much about anatomy to know well enough about it.
I've wondered. Can we move nerves around? What are the hurdles of fixing broken nerves.
Also, ugh I wish I could just transplant my brain into a CRISPR lab grown body.
Not that I keep up with the advances of instrumentation used in surgery but just to say Piezoelectric saws show some progress.
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Not that I keep up with the advances of instrumentation used in surgery but just to say Piezoelectric saws show some progress.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4672167/
Hmm will read up on this. Has any system integrated Piezoelectric saws to automate things?
Automation too in the end will ultimately make osteotomies safer, cheaper, and more accessible which is good.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4672167/
Hmm will read up on this. Has any system integrated Piezoelectric saws to automate things?
Automation too in the end will ultimately make osteotomies safer, cheaper, and more accessible which is good.
idk
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idk
yeah automation will help the most. Might research up on just general automation of surgical procedures.