jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: ODog on October 27, 2018, 07:01:48 PM
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I'm wondering what some of you believe that CAUSE of underdeveloped jaws to be. I don't believe it's oral posture. Not at all. Facial structure is marked at birth. IMO much depends on the nutritional/ physiological health of your parents' germ cells prior to conception. Or it could be genetics as well... but these problems seem to manifest a lot more in modern societies than in traditional/ primitive societies.
Therefore, I think much of what we call 'genetics' is multi-generational decline in nutritional status, i.e. compromised nutrition in one generation after another after another... and that's what you call "genetics" or "we don't know what causes it so we say genetics." For example, the health status of your great grandparents when they conceived your grandparents has a great deal with how healthy/ developed you will be; it doesn't necessarily mean if YOU had great nutrition growing up or had excellent oral posture that you'd develop normally... it's a trans-generational phenomenon. (unless someone can really convince me of the mouth-breathing hypothesis, but I'm doubtful). Moreover, just because a defect takes time to manifest itself doesn't mean it's due to something that YOU personally did wrong, e.g. nutritionally or physically, etc. Your craniofacial developmental plan is laid out at conception, and it just so happens that it takes time for defects to unravel and manifest themselves.
More specifically, does anyone think one of these physiological effects of degenerated nutrition (or physiological effects by some other cause) seems to be growth hormone deficiency ? I was just reading this article http://www.angle.org/doi/pdf/10.2319/011905-17 (http://www.angle.org/doi/pdf/10.2319/011905-17) and it turns out GH has a big impact on ramus and mandible length and some impact on maxilla projection as well.
Thoughts?
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Another specific culprit could be animal protein deficiency. We know bones are mostly made up of protein. Calcium has more to do with bone density and not the BUILDING of bone, which is proteins job. And btw, humamn growth hormone happens to be a PROTEIN.
Unfortunately, we tend to live in a society that still believes "saturated fat is bad for you" or that "eating animals is evil" etc. and so these developmental problems are becoming more common, whereas they were practically non-existent in primitive societies.
Weston Price in the early 20th century very persuasively showed through observational research of a dozen primitive societies around the world that what these cultures - which were full of people with perfect cranio-facial development - had in common was a diet based heavily around animal and organ meats. Dental and jaw problems only started to manifest when modern foods like sugar were introduced into the societies via trade.
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Infanticide was rife even in the West right up until modern times. With everyone living on the edge of starvation deformed babies were the first to go.
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Just because these problems have been around doesn’t prove that deficient nutrition isn’t a causal factor.
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Also it’s not just about nutrition it’s about health status in general. I guess what I’m looking for are people who believe different theories, I.e that the problem is developmental rather than genetic/ prenatal nutrition. What do you believe Plosko ?
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Also it’s not just about nutrition it’s about health status in general. I guess what I’m looking for are people who believe different theories, I.e that the problem is developmental rather than genetic/ prenatal nutrition. What do you believe Plosko ?
It's a genetic lottery. If you don't believe me, look up the typical "poor starving ghetto kid grows up to be a 190 cm tall NFL star with massive jaws ("we never had enough food at home when I was growing up")."
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It's a genetic lottery. If you don't believe me, look up the typical "poor starving ghetto kid grows up to be a 190 cm tall NFL star with massive jaws ("we never had enough food at home when I was growing up")."
I agree. Ebery one forgets models around my age grew up eating the garbage everyone else ate.
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But what did their parents eat? And their grandparents? It doesn’t matter what Tom Brady ate growing up, vegan or whatever, it matters what his parents ate, and his grandparents’ etc. Cait Shanahan talks about this in her book deep nutrition. She calls it genetic momentum when the nutrition is right across generations. She also describes a phenomenon where first born child is usually the tallest, most robust and subsequent born children are less healthy. This often shows in the facial development, and the jaws specifically where the jaws become narrow and teeth crowded. I’ve personally seen this pattern countless times, including in my own family. The reason she says is because it takes 4 years for a mother’s nutritional stores to replenish. People often don’t wait 4 years between kids. Genetic lottery is a lazy answer in my opinion. How does genetic lottery account for that ? We actually have always intuited a connection between the personalities of first born and latter born children (first born being the hero’s/ leaders; latter-born being more dependent)... but maybe after all it has less to do with birth order and more to do with the child’s health.
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But what did their parents eat? And their grandparents? It doesn’t matter what Tom Brady ate growing up, vegan or whatever, it matters what his parents ate, and his grandparents’ etc. Cait Shanahan talks about this in her book deep nutrition. She calls it genetic momentum when the nutrition is right across generations. She also describes a phenomenon where first born child is usually the tallest, most robust and subsequent born children are less healthy. This often shows in the facial development, and the jaws specifically where the jaws become narrow and teeth crowded. I’ve personally seen this pattern countless times, including in my own family. The reason she says is because it takes 4 years for a mother’s nutritional stores to replenish. People often don’t wait 4 years between kids. Genetic lottery is a lazy answer in my opinion. How does genetic lottery account for that ? We actually have always intuited a connection between the personalities of first born and latter born children (first born being the hero’s/ leaders; latter-born being more dependent)... but maybe after all it has less to do with birth order and more to do with the child’s health.
Their parents ate the same-stuff everyone else parents ate for the most part. I use me as an example i look like a relative who was born in 1900 on a small farm in rural germany. He had same issue i had. Assymetrical face,recesed everything, small skull. He grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I didnt know him well but i doubt they even had processed foods in his small rural town. His parents lived on that farm same part of town all there lives. I wish the answer was as-simple as nutritiom it isnt.
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It's genetics.
There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.
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It's genetics.
There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.
No hope for males with recessed jaws?
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It's genetics.
There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.
My father and grandfather both share my recessed jaw (I haven’t seen pictures of relatives beyond my grandparents generation), but I ended up with it worse than either of them. I think it’s your classic genetic predisposition combined with environmental factors scenario in my case. But clearly women are willing to reproduce with men with recessed jaws so it can’t solely be explained by that trait being considered attractive in women.
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It's genetics.
There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.
I remember reading that people's jaws are getting smaller ever since the paleolithic. The average mandible was bigger 1000 years ago and even bigger 1000 years before that and so on. Something to the effect of jaws being 50% smaller than 10,000 years ago.
Also apparently the general trend is for women to choose husbands with softer faces than 100 years ago.
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No hope for males with recessed jaws?
A person can still be good looking with a recessed jaw.
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A person can still be good looking with a recessed jaw.
Hmm, interesting thought.
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No hope for males with recessed jaws?
There's definite hope.
I date attractive women, and I've had a recessed jaw my entire life.
Some find it attractive, which is how the gene continues on.
Agree there are some environmental factors that could be in play, but disagree those are the primary causes.
Phenotype = Genotype + Environment
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Hmm, interesting thought.
The eyes are the most important part of the face.
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A person can still be good looking with a recessed jaw.
What people keep forgetting is that it's the SHAPE of their bones that's a problem.
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Hmm, interesting thought.
Yeah people overlook the fact that it's the SHAPE of the bones that matter.
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The eyes are the most important part of the face.
Seeing is often underestimated compared to having balanced jaws.
On a serious note, someone told me that the impression of a face starts from the bottom and that you work your way up, meaning chin, before cheekbones etc, but you disagree?
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Seeing is often underestimated compared to having balanced jaws.
On a serious note, someone told me that the impression of a face starts from the bottom and that you work your way up, meaning chin, before cheekbones etc, but you disagree?
Where is your source for that? If anything I see bad lower thirds being made up for by having an award winning eye area (pretty boy types) while I've always seen people with good lower thirds but terrible eye areas made fun of (Think Marko Jarić and how people mocked Lima for being with him).
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Their parents ate the same-stuff everyone else parents ate for the most part. I use me as an example i look like a relative who was born in 1900 on a small farm in rural germany. He had same issue i had. Assymetrical face,recesed everything, small skull. He grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I didnt know him well but i doubt they even had processed foods in his small rural town. His parents lived on that farm same part of town all there lives. I wish the answer was as-simple as nutritiom it isnt.
Earl, I’ve read that post of yours. Very helpful observation. I look back to my own family with perfect wide and forward jaws and cheekbones In good harmony and they all grew up on farms. They just ate animals. No sweets. My grandfather wouldn’t even touch fried food when he came here and he had a robust skull, wide chin. But there is one relative >:( in my family with a narrow face, but her jaws are forward at least and she has cheekbones at least. My father inherits that slightly narrow shape to the skull as a whole, but again his jaws are forward, square, square chin, and somewhat of midface projection... so he looks masculine enough. The relative narrowness/ smallness of the head IMO seemed the genetic part, but the proportions are still correct. I haven’t yet found anyone in my family line with recessed bones all around.
I, like you had, have recessed AND narrow everything - rims, both jaws, and cheekbones. Do you accept PMs I really want your advice about something.
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Their parents ate the same-stuff everyone else parents ate for the most part. I use me as an example i look like a relative who was born in 1900 on a small farm in rural germany. He had same issue i had. Assymetrical face,recesed everything, small skull. He grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I didnt know him well but i doubt they even had processed foods in his small rural town. His parents lived on that farm same part of town all there lives. I wish the answer was as-simple as nutritiom it isnt.
Not necessarily my friend. Poor people who live on farms and have access to animal products are not malnourished. Poor people who do not and survive on breads, beans, jams, and anti-nutrient absorbing carbs, are.
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It's genetics.
There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.
I’m not saying I’m right or your wrong as I’m only seeking the truth and an open to any logical hypothesis. But I want to reiterate to be clear, it doesn’t matter what the person himself or herself are growing up/ whether they were malnourished. It’s like foster kids who grew up in crappy half-way houses and ate cheese slices growing up ... but what did their family lineage eat is the real determining factor.
I believe it’s a Darwinian thing. When your ancestral lineage for multiple generations is right and clean, the germ cells that eventually conceive you outline a blueprint design of of your face and body right away, and what do these cells base their construction designs on, i mean your sex cells are BLIND - they have no idea what kind of nutritional material your environment will provide you, so a guesstimate is made based on generations of nutritional intake, so it’s decided that this environment will be good enough to support a robustly designed structure, and so the blueprint is set forth and unfolds from there. We don’t start as BLANK slates and grow or don’t grow according to the nutrition in on our own lifetime, that’s idiotic planning and risky andour genes are smart for that; they make calculated predictions I think.
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I remember reading that people's jaws are getting smaller ever since the paleolithic. The average mandible was bigger 1000 years ago and even bigger 1000 years before that and so on. Something to the effect of jaws being 50% smaller than 10,000 years ago.
Also apparently the general trend is for women to choose husbands with softer faces than 100 years ago.
You can blame the birth control pill for that. I wouldn’t place too much faith In That hypothesis.
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There's definite hope.
I date attractive women, and I've had a recessed jaw my entire life.
Some find it attractive, which is how the gene continues on.
Agree there are some environmental factors that could be in play, but disagree those are the primary causes.
Phenotype = Genotype + Environment
Then that means that the rest of your features are perhaps ok. So the answer to the other guy's question is that is depends whether the rest of his features are good or bad.
Its not about some finding it particularly attractive. Its about women finding other features of yours being attractive enough to OVERLOOK the recessed jaw. Or maybe yours isn't super recessed.
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I’m not saying I’m right or your wrong as I’m only seeking the truth and an open to any logical hypothesis. But I want to reiterate to be clear, it doesn’t matter what the person himself or herself are growing up/ whether they were malnourished. It’s like foster kids who grew up in crappy half-way houses and ate cheese slices growing up ... but what did their family lineage eat is the real determining factor.
I believe it’s a Darwinian thing. When your ancestral lineage for multiple generations is right and clean, the germ cells that eventually conceive you outline a blueprint design of of your face and body right away, and what do these cells base their construction designs on, i mean your sex cells are BLIND - they have no idea what kind of nutritional material your environment will provide you, so a guesstimate is made based on generations of nutritional intake, so it’s decided that this environment will be good enough to support a robustly designed structure, and so the blueprint is set forth and unfolds from there. We don’t start as BLANK slates and grow or don’t grow according to the nutrition in on our own lifetime, that’s idiotic planning and risky andour genes are smart for that; they make calculated predictions I think.
I read a study a while ago that when men are fat, something happens to their sperm which passes on genes that makes their children more predestined to overeating. I don't know if it applies in this context too.
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I read a study a while ago that when men are fat, something happens to their sperm which passes on genes that makes their children more predestined to overeating. I don't know if it applies in this context too.
Yes it absolutely applies. Your sperm mutates with all kinds of toxins or environmental impacts. Why wouldn’t it. The human body is an engineered system. If you pour water on a electronic device, you destroy it. You drop your phone, you cause it to malfunction. You eat a crappy diet, every cell in your body including your reproductive cells get damaged over time.
Now, the diet thing will sound ridiculous if you DON’T accept that for the 250, 000 years of our evolutionary history, humans are mostly fatty meat, PERIOD. We were not sitting around in huts munching on kale leaves, starving our asses off. We wouldn’t have had the energy to survive let alone the robust health to reproduce. You see this a lot nowadays with long term vegans becoming sterile. The right there is proof that diet impacts your germ cells. Furthermore, there really isn’t any optimal nutritional food in itself. All that matters is what the species evolved to eat, and their physiology and genes adapted to that diet and EXPECT that diet. If you feed a species foods they weren’t designed to eat, they get sick and die. Vegetables are eternally healthy, right? Well, not for lions. Studies have shown that feeding lions a diet of vegetables basically makes them get sick and die. Lions are designed to eat zebras. Feed them broccoli, and the blind Genes in their bodies which are running the show (and keeping a sensitive ear to what kind of nutrition the environment is providing) they will eventually say “ok I don’t know what environment you’re in, but we don’t have the equipment to work with this s**t you’re eating. Let’s shut down this failed experiment. Enter: cancer.”
Deprive a baby lambs mother of Vitamin A ENTIRELY, it’s offspring is born WITHOUT EYES. Deprive it somewhat of Vitamin A, the offspring might have one eye, or half-formed eyes, or weakend eyes in some way. Your eyes need vitamin A. This is why I brought up the protein hypothesis. Your bones are made of proteins. If you don’t eat optimal protein, wouldn’t it make sense that you’d be born with “weak bone” structure ?
When you’re eating a crap diet, You can’t produce healthy robust children when you’re sick and dying. Now, there are degrees to “getting sick and dying.” A diet full of foods we didn’t have 250, 000 years ago are killing us slowly. They are mutating our germ cells, slightly, insidiously, over time. Cancer in the wild is way way rarer than in humans. But for this argument to make sense, you have to research the true optimal diet for humans, and I believe that is a meat and organ meat based diet. And then you have to realize that we have gotten away from this type of diet tremendously. Actually, we DEMONiZE the whole meat industry.
This is my story. Grandparents on both side are robust. Big and wide, wide square chins and square jaws, they were farm men in Europe. Ate the food they cultivated. Came to America during world war 2. Started eating the sweets and trans fats and processed junk here. They had children who were slightly less robust but by far good enough... and then the next generation the problem has gotten worse. I would say most evidently in me. It’s not “genetics”. The recessed bones in my face are just one manifestation of general health problems I’ve suffered with my whole life. You can see traces of my genetic potential (I.e the true genetic phenotype of a person) but that has been distorted and not develop correctly. That to me is not genetic, it’s yours ancestors genes slowly sensing over generations the the nutritional intake is becoming vapid and degenerated and so it throws up the best design it can given its nutritional raw materials it Not only has at the moment in your parents’ bodies but that it PREDICTS will also be out there for you when you’re born. It’s like men who have high testosterone become totally dysfunctional when they’re get older and suffer from low test... they suffer more than men with lesser test to begin with, because their whole biological design was predicated and fueled on testosterone. Protein perhaps is the same thing ? If your parents’ Diets is not optimal in this area, why would your germ cells give you a robust bone structure when its incoming data shows that there won’t be enough protein out there to remineralize your bones throughout life. I could be wrong about this, but robust men tend to like their steaks. Maybe they need it. Less robust men can survive and apparently thrive on all kinds of twigs and shrubs, lol.
Humans are not supposed to not develop correctly. They are not supposed to end up with half-matured childlike bodies and/ or faces. In my mind that’s not genetic. That’s mutated germ cells that cause this before you were even conceived.
Why do cigarettes mutate germ cells ? Or antidepressants ? Or anabolic steroids ? I’ve noticed a pattern in steroid users having kids with autism and other developmental problems, Because they are all chemical insults the body is not DESIGNED to take in. And so they reek havoc.
Remember guys.. I am proposing this only as a HYPOTHESIS, I am not saying it is correct. I only simply believe it to be true given the information I have now, but that could change. Welcome to have my mind changed.
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Yes it absolutely applies. Your sperm mutates with all kinds of toxins or environmental impacts. Why wouldn’t it. The human body is an engineered system. If you pour water on a electronic device, you destroy it. You drop your phone, you cause it to malfunction. You eat a crappy diet, every cell in your body including your reproductive cells get damaged over time.
Now, the diet thing will sound ridiculous if you DON’T accept that for the 250, 000 years of our evolutionary history, humans are mostly fatty meat, PERIOD. We were not sitting around in huts munching on kale leaves, starving our asses off. We wouldn’t have had the energy to survive let alone the robust health to reproduce. You see this a lot nowadays with long term vegans becoming sterile. The right there is proof that diet impacts your germ cells. Furthermore, there really isn’t any optimal nutritional food in itself. All that matters is what the species evolved to eat, and their physiology and genes adapted to that diet and EXPECT that diet. If you feed a species foods they weren’t designed to eat, they get sick and die. Vegetables are eternally healthy, right? Well, not for lions. Studies have shown that feeding lions a diet of vegetables basically makes them get sick and die. Lions are designed to eat zebras. Feed them broccoli, and the blind Genes in their bodies which are running the show (and keeping a sensitive ear to what kind of nutrition the environment is providing) they will eventually say “ok I don’t know what environment you’re in, but we don’t have the equipment to work with this s**t you’re eating. Let’s shut down this failed experiment. Enter: cancer.”
Deprive a baby lambs mother of Vitamin A ENTIRELY, it’s offspring is born WITHOUT EYES. Deprive it somewhat of Vitamin A, the offspring might have one eye, or half-formed eyes, or weakend eyes in some way. Your eyes need vitamin A. This is why I brought up the protein hypothesis. Your bones are made of proteins. If you don’t eat optimal protein, wouldn’t it make sense that you’d be born with “weak bone” structure ?
When you’re eating a crap diet, You can’t produce healthy robust children when you’re sick and dying. Now, there are degrees to “getting sick and dying.” A diet full of foods we didn’t have 250, 000 years ago are kissing us slowly. They are mutating our germ cells, slightly, insidiously, over time. Cancer in the wild is way way rarer than in humans. But for this argument to make sense, you have to research the true optimal diet for humans, and I believe that is a meat and organ meat based diet. And then you have to realize that we have gotten away from this type of diet tremendously. Actually, we DEMONiZE the whole meat industry.
This is my story. Grandparents on both side are robust. Big and wide, wide square chins and square jaws, they were farm men in Europe. Ate the food they cultivated. Came to America during world war 2. Started eating the sweets and trans fats and processed junk here. They had children who were slightly less robust but by far good enough... and then the next generation the problem has gotten worse. I would say most evidently in me. It’s not “genetics”. The recessed bones in my face are just one manifestation of general health problems I’ve suffered with my whole life. You can see traces of my genetic potential (I.e the true genetic phenotype of a person) but that has been distorted and not develop correctly. That to me is not genetic, it’s yours ancestors genes slowly sensing over generations the the nutritional intake is becoming vapid and degenerated and so it throws up the best design it can given its nutritional raw materials it Not only has at the moment in your parents’ bodies but that it PREDICTS will also be out there for you when you’re born. It’s like men who have high testosterone become totally dysfunctional when they’re get older and suffer from low test... they suffer more than men with lesser test to begin with, because their whole biological design was predicated and fueled on testosterone. Protein perhaps is the same thing ? If your parents’ Diets is not optimal in this area, why would your germ cells give you a robust bone structure when its incoming data shows that there won’t be enough protein out there to remineralize your bones throughout life. I could be wrong about this, but robust men tend to like their steaks. Maybe they need it. Less robust men can survive and apparently thrive on all kinds of twigs and shrubs, lol.
Humans are not supposed to not develop correctly. They are not supposed to end up with half-matured childlike bodies and/ or faces. In my mind that’s not genetic. That’s mutated germ cells that cause this before you were even conceived.
Why do cigarettes mutate germ cells ? Or antidepressants ? Or anabolic steroids ? I’ve noticed a pattern in steroid users having kids with autism and other developmental problems, Because they are all chemical insults the body is not DESIGNED to take in. And so they reek havoc.
Remember guys.. I am proposing this only as a HYPOTHESIS, I am not saying it is correct. I only simply believe it to be true given the information I have now, but that could change. Welcome to have my mind changed.
Well your hypothesis has partial support doesn't it? With my point of fat dads etc. I wonder if it works with women too etc.
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ODog,
What meat eating paradise did your ancestors come from?
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ODog,
What meat eating paradise did your ancestors come from?
Please don’t be condescending. This is a serious discussion. They grew up on farms. They ate animals and animal products and not much else.
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Please don’t be condescending. This is a serious discussion. They grew up on farms. They ate animals and animal products and not much else.
I'm not. I'm genuinely curious, because until very recent times 99% of farmers ate plant food 99% of the time and meat only on special occasions.
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You can blame the birth control pill for that. I wouldn’t place too much faith In That hypothesis.
If a square jaw at least subconsciously signals a man who is physically fit/strong, then I think there is an argument to be made that as physical strength becomes less important in evaluating a man’s attractiveness as a mate, women will gravitate more toward men with softer features. I think of my close group of female friends from college, most of them ended up marrying nice, smart guys who went on to make a lot of money, not necessarily traditionally handsome guys.
On the birth control thing, I know there have been studies indicating a link beteeen a woman being on hormonal birth control and her mate selection, but I’d be interested in seeing data around what percentage of women are already on the pill when they meet the father of their children. Among the women I know it’s pretty split. When I met my husband I wasn’t on the pill and he’s the strong-jawed type, but I also consciously was going for that having a weak jaw myself.
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I'm not. I'm genuinely curious, because until very recent times 99% of farmers ate plant food 99% of the time and meat only on special occasions.
Where are you getting this information from? You’re telling me a farmer working 12 hour days in the sun ate plants “99%” of the time? Then where are they getting the energy to perform their tasks? Plants don’t have fat or carbs, or protein for that matter. Are you saying they subsisted on fruits?
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Plants don’t have fat or carbs, or protein for that matter.
uhm?
I haven't followed the discussion, is this a rethorical point, or do you really mean this?
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uhm?
I haven't followed the discussion, is this a rethorical point, or do you really mean this?
What don’t you understand ? There is little energy content in plants. There is ample energy (fat) and body building material (protein) in meat. Yes there are plenty carbs in roots and tubers, but then where is the protein which is the most important macronutrient, especially for the purposes of our discussion, I.e the construction of jaw bones.
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Where are you getting this information from? You’re telling me a farmer working 12 hour days in the sun ate plants “99%” of the time? Then where are they getting the energy to perform their tasks? Plants don’t have fat or carbs, or protein for that matter. Are you saying they subsisted on fruits?
Rice farmers ate mainly rice. Wheat farmers ate mainly wheat. Meat was consumed only on special occasions.
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Rice farmers ate mainly rice. Wheat farmers ate mainly wheat. Meat was consumed only on special occasions.
Well my ancestor farmers ate meat at least once a day. I don’t see how ones body could manufacture testosterone and sperm production without cholesterol and fat on an all-rice diet. Maybe they ate just enough meat to keep themselves fertile ? Regardless, rice and bread are not nearly AS BAD as the junk we have available today. The junk we eat today is effectively not even food and it’s this that poisons our germ cells, like every other cell in our body, just like any toxin does. Even meat once a week is okay if you’re not eating posion the rest of the time. It’s sort of like... you can eat meats and veggies daily in ample qualities but if you smoke cigarettes, your sperm can still be affected and distorted.
So I think you’re right. Most people were not elites and so obviously didn’t have first dibs to meat. Which might explain why the elites in society have typically always been more attractive people than societies bottom dwellers all throughout history. BUT... less meat is still okay if you’re not injesting material that is throwing your body’s physiology completely out of whack. We are somewhat adapted to plant foods, although not as much as people like to claim since our digestive tracts are more like wolves than chimps, but we are NOT designed to eat sugar or trans fats, for example, as evidenced by our body using sugar as Fuel immediately when it’s injested so that It can purge itself of the toxic substance quickly. So perhaps it’s more the addition of bad foods thats the problem.
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But look... there’s an easier way to test the nutrition theory. I said it in my first post and nobody’s commented on it.. Look at families with multiple siblings. Is it not the case that the first born seems to be healthier, bigger, stronger, more vigorous and beautiful ? And the subsequent born children seem to be less and less healthy looking? (The jaws are only but one manifestation of this phenomenon). I can think of dozens of cases where this is true and only one where it’s not. The idea is that the mother’s nutritional stores are at their peak for the first pregnancy, and it takes about 4 years to replenish those stores. The problem is that most people tend to like having children 2 years apart which is not enough time to have a second optimally healthy child.
I’ve seen this scenario too many times for it not to be true.
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Cate Shanahan calls this second sibling syndrome, have a read:
https://drcate.com/kate-middleton-versus-pippa-who-is-the-more-beautiful-sister/
http://drcate.com/celebrity-album/
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What don’t you understand ? There is little energy content in plants. There is ample energy (fat) and body building material (protein) in meat. Yes there are plenty carbs in roots and tubers, but then where is the protein which is the most important macronutrient, especially for the purposes of our discussion, I.e the construction of jaw bones.
There are plenty of plant based alternatives for protein, fat and especially carbs.
Protein
https://goo.gl/images/x8riXV
For fat you have
Avocado
Nuts
Olives etc
Carbs is everywhere
Based on this I don't understand the part I quoted. You can have a balanced diet without meat.
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Not to turn this into a discussion of nutrition unrelated to the topic at hand but my friend... 1 cup of broccoli/ kale 3 grams protein, 6 grams of carbs... 1 piece of steak 65 G protein and 50 g fat.... which food do you think our starving, energy-deprived ancestors valued most? Which do you think they made the staple of their diet and which a mere supplementary element ? I don’t recall any prehistoric cave drawings of broccoli tbh.
See, the reason we can’t even have a discussion about how diet contributes to maldevelopment is because our society is so brainwashed about what an optimal diet is. Lol.... getting your protein from beans smh... I don’t even want to get into how nuts and seeds and many vegetables can actually be bad for you for you since plants produce toxins as an evolutionary survival mechanism.
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There are plenty of plant based alternatives for protein, fat and especially carbs.
Protein
https://goo.gl/images/x8riXV
For fat you have
Avocado
Nuts
Olives etc
Carbs is everywhere
Based on this I don't understand the part I quoted. You can have a balanced diet without meat.
No, you just haven’t studied nutrition deeply enough. And surviving is not the same as being an optimally healthy male/ female
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Vegans have kids somehow.
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No, you just haven’t studied nutrition deeply enough. And surviving is not the same as being an optimally healthy male/ female
Impossible to have a discussion at this level. Those statements needs to be backed up. You stated that plant based diet doesn't contain protein, fat or carbs, which of course is nonsense. So you need to specify what you mean.
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Man evolved to be an omnivore, not a carnivore. It's true that plants produce toxins, but each plant kind produces a different kind of toxin, which concentrates in different parts of the body. So it's best to eat a little bit of everything to spread the toxic load.
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In response to Dogmatix...
Man, I’m talking about 200, 000 years ago. Our ancestors were not gathering leaves for protein. We’d have to be like chimps and munch on them literally all day to meet our energy needs and so we wouldn’t even have evolved if it weren’t for fat and meat, plus we’d need a massive fermenting stomach (like chimps and gorillas have) to convert those leaves into fatty acids for energy, but we don’t. We have small stomachs. So I’m saying we didn’t evolve on alternate sources of protein.
Yes, I’m well aware you can cook up some kidney beans and buy some soy protein vegan bars to meet your protein requirements in 2018. That’s not the point.
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Man evolved to be an omnivore, not a carnivore. It's true that plants produce toxins, but each plant kind produces a different kind of toxin, which concentrates in different parts of the body. So it's best to eat a little bit of everything to spread the toxic load.
https://goo.gl/images/SZFqQ8
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https://goo.gl/images/SZFqQ8
I never said humans are herbivores.
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I never said humans are herbivores.
I know. I’m just showing that humans, the omnivores that they are, are actually more designed to eat and process meat. But anyway.. I’m pretty convinced nutrition is the main cause.
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