jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: Lestat on March 11, 2019, 12:21:22 PM
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-"The imitation of the human bone is not the only advantage of the implant: moreover, the porous part will allow the bone to "penetrate" the implant. This means that over time, the fixing plates can be removed, and the implant will already behave as a bone."
https://m.phys.org/news/2019-02-polymer-twin-implant-imitates-bone.html
Seems very interesting!
What do you guys think about it?
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Seems interesting, but I'm wondering if it suffers from increased infection rates like other porous materials like Medpor.
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There is definately need for better implant material than silicone, and that's why they are experimenting with new material right now. Medpor is also outdated cause you can't change it easily. Ideally an implant needs to have low infection rate, needs to be able to replicate bone, needs to look natural, needs to age well, not move, and needs to be changed easily when the client isn't satisfied. Silicone only offers the latter. More studies need to be made about PEEK, Titanium and new other implant material.
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Will take an easy 5-10 years for FDA approval and actual commercial use in patients..
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Silicone ages bad. Look at Michael Jackson's implant for example. You can see the typical silicone look. We're at the beginning of plastic surgery area. In 50 years things will probably be much better, but we won't have that luck. Demand from society to look good will increase and scientists and surgeons need to come with better plans, designs, materials, skills and procedures. I also hope that PS becomes less of a scam business. The amount of people who get scammed is huge. They need to be protected.
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Silicone ages bad. Look at Michael Jackson's implant for example. You can see the typical silicone look. We're at the beginning of plastic surgery area. In 50 years things will probably be much better, but we won't have that luck. Demand from society to look good will increase and scientists and surgeons need to come with better plans, designs, materials, skills and procedures. I also hope that PS becomes less of a scam business. The amount of people who get scammed is huge. They need to be protected.
Genetic engineering will happen first.
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Genetic engineering will happen first.
Yep. If we're going to get ahead of this beauty thing, we're going to have to move way beyond implants and fillers. The whole medical industry is going to have to be totally disrupted. We're certainly on that path now, it's only a matter of time. Until then, tons of people are going to get repeatedly burned by the current options.
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Yep. If we're going to get ahead of this beauty thing, we're going to have to move way beyond implants and fillers. The whole medical industry is going to have to be totally disrupted. We're certainly on that path now, it's only a matter of time. Until then, tons of people are going to get repeatedly burned by the current options.
Without a huge number of men who need to be put back in action ASAP (WW2 scale), I'm afraid we won't see any medical breakthroughs for a while. I'm in the biomed industry (not a researcher). It's a big slow, inefficient grind with the vast majority of startups flopping. The founders then move on, raise money again, start another one. Rinse and repeat.
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Honestly just need the Pentagon to get in on this since that’s where the majority of tech actually comes from (in conjunction with schools like MIT). Maybe convince them that good looking and durable implants will improve soldiers’ self confidence on the battlefield.
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Without a huge number of men who need to be put back in action ASAP (WW2 scale), I'm afraid we won't see any medical breakthroughs for a while. I'm in the biomed industry (not a researcher). It's a big slow, inefficient grind with the vast majority of startups flopping. The founders then move on, raise money again, start another one. Rinse and repeat.
At this point, it's obvious to me that the necessary disruption will come from AI (or some kind of hivemind system, but I digress). There are far too many variables to consider for an unassisted doctor/researcher when looking at almost anything related to the human body. This is why diagnosing/researching hasn't evolved much and why it's still mostly just throwing darts. It's very possible this stage will not require nearly as many people involved.
That's cool that you're close to it though.
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the most important question is still: what makes someone better looking and what should be done to make that person better looking? A surgeon should be able to make a face better looking based on a good morph, but these cases are rare. I think the next step will be designing computer programs that are able to predict the changes in all directions with soft tissue attached to the face, instead of based on a skull. The latter gives too unpredictable results, you need to see the changes with soft tissue on face.
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the most important question is still: what makes someone better looking and what should be done to make that person better looking? A surgeon should be able to make a face better looking based on a good morph, but these cases are rare. I think the next step will be designing computer programs that are able to predict the changes in all directions with soft tissue attached to the face, instead of based on a skull. The latter gives too unpredictable results, you need to see the changes with soft tissue on face.
There is such a convergence of technology happening, trying to predict what we'll end up with is impossible.
If we just looked at the potential of regenerative technology alone for instance, we could end up a total solution. A body already knows (hypothetically) how to build 'perfectly' formed pieces of itself. Salamanders (and I think most/many amphibians - especially the axolotl) can have its tail cut off and attached to an amputated arm and this tail section will grow into a perfect arm (The axolotl can regenerate almost all parts of its body from scratch). It's not clear how this would or if it could work in an adult human, but it's possible we have genes that are just 'disabled' (regeneration would be incredibly resource intensive for a large animal like a human in nature). With this approach, you're just harnessing the already incredible built-in regenerative process in organisms.
Why does someone look good? It's just a combination of health (lack of genetic disease) and the right chemical balance (which the 'ideal' is probably just a moving target based on all kinds of cultural values). I'm heavily simplifying it here as it all has a genetic basis and a tangled web, as well as individual and more superficial traits for hair color, etc, etc.
If that doesn't work, we always have nanobots and ai assisted surgery, consciousness uploading (transhumanism), minds controlling surrogate bodies, etc. Yep, I think I'm finally losing it...
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Honestly just need the Pentagon to get in on this since that’s where the majority of tech actually comes from (in conjunction with schools like MIT). Maybe convince them that good looking and durable implants will improve soldiers’ self confidence on the battlefield.
Actually interest in appearance changes for better (or different) looks would be more in the venue of espionage than battlefield and would resolve to CIA funding. They have entire departments (Camouflage OPs) devoted to forensic facial analysis, reconstruction, disguises etc. They have a cadre of medical specialist devoted to surgical alterations and the latest technology to avoid bio-metric identification when they need to change identities.
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Actually interest in appearance changes for better (or different) looks would be more in the venue of espionage than battlefield and would resolve to CIA funding. They have entire departments (Camouflage OPs) devoted to forensic facial analysis, reconstruction, disguises etc. They have a cadre of medical specialist devoted to surgical alterations and the latest technology to avoid bio-metric identification when they need to change identities.
I heard the CIA had come close to (or have come close to, or already developed) some kind of technology that morphs a person's facial features, like does something that makes your facial features malleable and changeable into a completely different face. I have no idea what that technology is or how it works but I remember reading about this.
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Genetic engineering will happen first.
when do you think genetic engineering will be able to help us plosko?
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I heard the CIA had come close to (or have come close to, or already developed) some kind of technology that morphs a person's facial features, like does something that makes your facial features malleable and changeable into a completely different face. I have no idea what that technology is or how it works but I remember reading about this.
Well, they have the program where you can mark out a bunch of points on the face and morph in accordance to certain distance relationships being totally changed or that can be used for facial descriptions people have that forensics draw on the basis of a description. So, they can keep changing things around so the person describing someone can see if the changes match what they saw when there is no actual photo but just a description . They also have prosthetic department that makes fake but life like faces one can wear. As to surgeries, they have a cadre of specialists to perform and consult with as to desired changes (if possible), for example to make a body double look or just change an 'outed' agent into another face. They usually like faces that just blend in with the crowd. Outstanding features as to beauty/handsome could be done but the person who gets that would get it to attract and extract info. Mata Hari or male mata hari deal.
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when do you think genetic engineering will be able to help us plosko?
I don't. It will help our descendants.
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I heard the CIA had come close to (or have come close to, or already developed) some kind of technology that morphs a person's facial features, like does something that makes your facial features malleable and changeable into a completely different face. I have no idea what that technology is or how it works but I remember reading about this.
It's simply impossible for a surgeon to calculate the right dimensions for an implant based on the skull alone, that's why there is need for these kind of programs. The design may look great on paper, and it looks fantastic to see the sharp edges at the jaw angles, but in reality, if you don't have a very retruded jaw and chin, more than 3 millimeter width could already give unnatural results and make the face look bloated, too broad, or give a U-shape. This is one of the reasons for the high revision rate. Creating a model look is probably a myth. Implants don't give those extreme angular angles. Until someone figures out why that's the case, no progressie will be made. I personally think most designs are wrong. For example, you only need a small border along the lower jaw to make it angular, but most designs go high up on the face, especially at the masseter area. The reason is that they need to be fixed, but that whole part is totally useless aestethically. Every millimeter of implant that isn't needed on a particular place can throw off the balance of facial harmony. Facial beauty is about small millimeters. Most surgeons go way overboard as well, but it's not even their fault, they aren't able to calculate the dimensions based on the skull alone. Also, clients come to their office and ask for a 'model face' or 'Brad pit jawline'. Crazy questions. Most men that aren't aware of reality think 'the more width, the better'. I see crazy implant designs with 10mm width and stuff like that on normal faces. I wonder how they turn out, it wouldn't surprise me if almost all of these cases fail. It looks great on Photoshop, but Photoshop preserves the V-line, shadows and ogee line. Photoshop is not implants. If surgeons would be able to create jawlines like the ones on Photoshop, you could safely put an implant in. But most surgeons can't do it. Until someone figures out why, implants are high risk. Then you have alternatives like bonework. Super unpredictable. Alot of clients report asymmetry problems, longfaces, blunted jawangles, etc. The risks are very high with PS and reducing the risks of undesirable outcomes would be a big step forward.
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My friend works in a videogame company. For their games they make 3D models from photos, videos of real people. They do it "from the ground up". Estimate what the skull looks like and model that first. Then throw layers of "virtual plasticine" on top to get to the final 3D model. Kind of like the Gerasimov method, but they already know what the result should look like, and they guesstimate the skull instead. Anyway, he told me how the head artist would review the work - "no, no, no, looks nothing like him!", rips off the skin and muscle, tweaks the jaw bone a few mms, adds back the soft-tissue layers and the new face looks completely different. A few mms.
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My friend works in a videogame company. For their games they make 3D models from photos, videos of real people. They do it "from the ground up". Estimate what the skull looks like and model that first. Then throw layers of "virtual plasticine" on top to get to the final 3D model. Kind of like the Gerasimov method, but they already know what the result should look like, and they guesstimate the skull instead. Anyway, he told me how the head artist would review the work - "no, no, no, looks nothing like him!", rips off the skin and muscle, tweaks the jaw bone a few mms, adds back the soft-tissue layers and the new face looks completely different. A few mms.
That's awesome. That's the type of facial planning we need in plastic surgery. It's actually astounding it doesn't already exist for plastic surgeons given surgery you would think is a priority over gaming. (don't jump on me, i know, i know, it's actually not).
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A few mms.
Sums it up, and is so sad.
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That's awesome. That's the type of facial planning we need in plastic surgery. It's actually astounding it doesn't already exist for plastic surgeons given surgery you would think is a priority over gaming. (don't jump on me, i know, i know, it's actually not).
I know I'm going to sound like a jerk, but Plosko's interpretation of how game character models are made is fairly different from reality. The 'building from the ground up' notion can only really refer to training exercises currently - example: some artists will build a character from skeleton -> musculature -> soft tissue as an exercise to better understand anatomy (in fact, artists have been doing this for hundreds of years in different ways). In a work environment, this would be a phenomenal waste of resources. In short, games don't do any real bone, muscle, soft tissue simulation. We still use 'paper envelope' models with joints (connected points/nodes with vertex weighting) and corrective blend shapes for animating a face or body. Fundamentally, nothing has changed other than the distribution/number/tech built on top of this for decades.
The only way this will change is with AI (which is very much a loaded buzzword at this point). But the roadmap for this is just under way. Nvidia's new RTX cards have just started including tensor cores (which are just specialized matrices for AI driven tasks). In other words, if you want to actually simulate human tissues for surgical planning, we have a ways to go.
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That's awesome. That's the type of facial planning we need in plastic surgery. It's actually astounding it doesn't already exist for plastic surgeons given surgery you would think is a priority over gaming. (don't jump on me, i know, i know, it's actually not).
I once saw on a PS site that they used this kind of software, I don't know which site it was. Surgeons can't predict how much augmentation is needed. Some faces need a tiny bit of augmentation. During surgery, they can shave part of the implants but the ideal is an implant that fits perfectly. A perfect implant probably doesn't exist though. You're born with the right bonestructure of you're not.
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I know I'm going to sound like a jerk, but Plosko's interpretation of how game character models are made is fairly different from reality. The 'building from the ground up' notion can only really refer to training exercises currently - example: some artists will build a character from skeleton -> musculature -> soft tissue as an exercise to better understand anatomy (in fact, artists have been doing this for hundreds of years in different ways). In a work environment, this would be a phenomenal waste of resources. In short, games don't do any real bone, muscle, soft tissue simulation. We still use 'paper envelope' models with joints (connected points/nodes with vertex weighting) and corrective blend shapes for animating a face or body. Fundamentally, nothing has changed other than the distribution/number/tech built on top of this for decades.
The only way this will change is with AI (which is very much a loaded buzzword at this point). But the roadmap for this is just under way. Nvidia's new RTX cards have just started including tensor cores (which are just specialized matrices for AI driven tasks). In other words, if you want to actually simulate human tissues for surgical planning, we have a ways to go.
I don't mind being corrected. This was a few years ago and my friend is not a 3d artist. Anyway, that company is loaded with cash and the faces had to look like some athletes. Truth be told the biomedical industry that I've dealt with is pretty retrograde. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for breakthroughs.
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I know I'm going to sound like a jerk, but Plosko's interpretation of how game character models are made is fairly different from reality. The 'building from the ground up' notion can only really refer to training exercises currently - example: some artists will build a character from skeleton -> musculature -> soft tissue as an exercise to better understand anatomy (in fact, artists have been doing this for hundreds of years in different ways). In a work environment, this would be a phenomenal waste of resources. In short, games don't do any real bone, muscle, soft tissue simulation. We still use 'paper envelope' models with joints (connected points/nodes with vertex weighting) and corrective blend shapes for animating a face or body. Fundamentally, nothing has changed other than the distribution/number/tech built on top of this for decades.
The only way this will change is with AI (which is very much a loaded buzzword at this point). But the roadmap for this is just under way. Nvidia's new RTX cards have just started including tensor cores (which are just specialized matrices for AI driven tasks). In other words, if you want to actually simulate human tissues for surgical planning, we have a ways to go.
I'm enjoying all of your contributions to this thread and the tech. predictions/speculations.
But I think we can be more optimistic frankly. I say that because if you think of just jaw surgery, when I started looking into it this site just started and now there is literally thousands of before and afters and information about jaw surgery. Okay, maybe that wasn't a good example cause its ben over several years and basically nothing in the way jaw surgery has been done has changed lol.
I remember a doc telling me they were looking for the perfect lasers to do the osteotomies so that the soft tissue would be undisturbed and it would avoid all nerve damage. That was literally 9-10 years ago and no one has even heard of lasers being used in jaw surgery (and no he didn't mean piezosurgery which most surgeons hate using cause its very inaccurate). So they really f**king failed on that front.
I don't know anything about artificial intelligence but won't these tasks be streamlined with quantum computing and s**t?
Also, having good looks is VERY youth dependent, so that's one factor most of us veterans on this site have f**king lost. I mean that 18-25 year old extreme youth=beauty occasion. Plus 35 is over the hill and your looks are kind of irrelevant at that point.
And then with regards to jaw surgery ---yeah unless you're perfect from every other point of view it doesn't matter.
I thought jaw surgery was something that would create a profound effect. But looking at a very good looking young waiter at a restaurant today I realize that "being good looking" has so many different criteria coming into play together from hair texture to broadness of cheekbones (super important) to the precise ration of your nose to the rest of your face. You just can't artifically jig that stuff through surgery. You just can't cause it's an entire gestalt.
Sucks, but that's kind of the sad truth. And any kind of gene editing blah blah, that's not like 50, that's a hundred years away and the earth will probably be uninhabitable by then. So who f**king cares. Like seriously, f**k this s**t in toto.
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I don't mind being corrected. This was a few years ago and my friend is not a 3d artist. Anyway, that company is loaded with cash and the faces had to look like some athletes. Truth be told the biomedical industry that I've dealt with is pretty retrograde. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for breakthroughs.
Sure yeah, there are lots of projects out there and some projects are fairly unique. I was just trying to lay out the current state-of-the-art even in AAA projects. Since games have so much they are trying to do, they are rarely going to push the tech boundaries that would benefit other industries. The only exception I can think of is with AI learning to play games (OpenAI and others) - machine learning is a great test bed in games since there is far less noise and the logic is very abstracted.
I can imagine lots of biomed companies are still very retrograde as you say. My hope is that the most cutting edge tech can converge into something that will benefit many industries. As an outsider to biotech, I myself probably get wrapped up in all sorts of sensationalism. But recently, my favorite few talks have been from Michael Levin, who has done a ton of work trying to understand regeneration in different organisms. Obviously I'm not holding my breath, but I do believe that biotech and AI research will one day converge into something that will hopefully make massive breakthroughs to improve people's lives.
Anyway, I'm really getting off the original topic here...
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Will plastic surgery really be different though in 5-10 years?
I don't think so. More predictions with regards to fillers and s**t like that. These surgeons love fillers because they want patients to keep coming back on a subscription service to keep getting s**t done. If there were permanent fixes they wouldn't even want them. Fillers satisfies the idiot masses and docs love them. Even dentists do fillers on people now.
Honestly, f**k this industry. I hate to resort to the type of talk of these lookism types but I became aware of the term "cope or rope" a little while back and honestly, I think it f**king suffices.
For some people, and I guess this especially includes people with body dysmorphia the "rope" option is tempting and the rest of us are just coping by continously visiting this site.
Jaw surgery did nothing for my looks, and that's the reason I got it. So f**k all this s**t.
You can't buy model looks. You just can't.
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Will plastic surgery really be different though in 5-10 years?
I don't think so. More predictions with regards to fillers and s**t like that. These surgeons love fillers because they want patients to keep coming back on a subscription service to keep getting s**t done. If there were permanent fixes they wouldn't even want them. Fillers satisfies the idiot masses and docs love them. Even dentists do fillers on people now.
Honestly, f**k this industry. I hate to resort to the type of talk of these lookism types but I became aware of the term "cope or rope" a little while back and honestly, I think it f**king suffices.
For some people, and I guess this especially includes people with body dysmorphia the "rope" option is tempting and the rest of us are just coping by continously visiting this site.
Jaw surgery did nothing for my looks, and that's the reason I got it. So f**k all this s**t.
You can't buy model looks. You just can't.
That would explain why one can see enough rich people with nipped, tucked, sucked and f**ked over faces.
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All I wanted out of my surgery was normal tooth show and I didn't even get that simple thing.
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That would explain why one can see enough rich people with nipped, tucked, sucked and f**ked over faces.
Dude, you don't even know. I'm in Miami right now visiting some family and have been here for a few weeks.
There are some ridiculously good looking girls and guys here --but they're all of spanish/cuban heritage and of course I'm just noticing the occasional good looking person.
There are tons of white people here too and they f**king HORDES of old people 50 plus. MANY, MANY probably HALF have noticeable plastic surgery and they look like complete f**king JUNKBOTS.
f**ked up long midfaces with the skin pulled tight, obviously died hair and/or hair implants. Pinched noses and wonky looking eyes. And plastic surgery seems like a major industry here. There are billboards with huge photos of asshole surgeons advertizing their plastic surgery expertise. Those are clearly the guys f**king people over so they can live in those modernist homes overlooking the ocean with the yachts parked out front.
It's like if these women and men hadn't gotten plastic surgery they would look 10X times better. And most of them you can tell have had several procedures. We're just deluding ourselves here as well. We're clearly "coping".
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Dude, you don't even know. I'm in Miami right now visiting some family and have been here for a few weeks.
There are some ridiculously good looking girls and guys here --but they're all of spanish/cuban heritage and of course I'm just noticing the occasional good looking person.
There are tons of white people here too and they f**king HORDES of old people 50 plus. MANY, MANY probably HALF have noticeable plastic surgery and they look like complete f**king JUNKBOTS.
f**ked up long midfaces with the skin pulled tight, obviously died hair and/or hair implants. Pinched noses and wonky looking eyes. And plastic surgery seems like a major industry here. There are billboards with huge photos of asshole surgeons advertizing their plastic surgery expertise. Those are clearly the guys f**king people over so they can live in those modernist homes overlooking the ocean with the yachts parked out front.
It's like if these women and men hadn't gotten plastic surgery they would look 10X times better. And most of them you can tell have had several procedures. We're just deluding ourselves here as well. We're clearly "coping".
The lookism stuff is clearly based on elements of truth, but also doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. No amount of privilege is going to be enough for someone who doesn't 'cope' (if you are deficient in any way clearly you're coping /s), but it's certainly easier to do that if you live a charmed life. And that's the thing, we have made comparing ourselves to others by far the largest change in society in the last 10-15 years, and it's hard for people to deal with. My guess is that this will (hopefully) inevitably also lead to empathy, and then cooperation and progress - might take a while.
Going back to my first post in this thread, this also drives home my point about the necessity of the disruption of medical fields (ESPECIALLY cosmetic). This is an industry rife with predatory tactics, misinformation, and badly outdated practices. But that's also how these guys stay in business. There is so little transparency, you simply can't trust anyone to give you a plain answer. They are preying on people's desperation to be healthier or better looking, because underneath all of the facade, of course we all know it's very important. But, very few people end up strictly better than before - many end up in a downward spiral of failed corrections. It's not clear where the critical mass will happen: is it society that will slowly change its view of cosmetic surgery and therefore invest in better technologies, or are mega-rich corporations already getting enough resources to change technology with enough time (and will it be accessible to everyone?).
So, is surgery going to change in the next 10-15 years? It really all comes down to progress in AI (will surgery even be the primary mode of care?). At this point, many industries have collected all of the broad conceptual framework related to what we want changed, now we need both the brute force (which we are very close to having enough of) and the contextual intelligence (which we need a lot of work on) to analyze it all. Cataloging genomes is becoming extremely cheap and accessible, gene editing is making slow progress in curing rare diseases, cars can almost drive themselves, even regeneration and aging is becoming more understood. But, the final progress will be made by analyzing huge data sets with some fraction of human level intelligence.
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In the end it will be easier to select (or genetically engineered) for healthy, good looking offspring rather than try to fix adults. We might just be the last ugly, mortal generation.
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In the end it will be easier to select (or genetically engineered) for healthy, good looking offspring rather than try to fix adults. We might just be the last ugly, mortal generation.
So I don't know how upto date you are on this stuff and you may be right but according to George Church who runs one of the most advanced Crispr labs any sort of gene therapy can be applied to adults through virus that go into the body and clip or activate particular genes etc.
I mean I know s**t about this other than watching some lectures but his whole lab is working on aging reversal and that's apparently possible in animals and stuff now. Actually reversing the organism to a more youthful stage with changes in appearance and performance etc.
That said, to edit the genome for beauty I mean that would involve potentially thousands of genes and do we really know what the possible side effects would be?
Kavan, you have a strong science background, do you think George Church's work is legit and do you think we'll see applications to us in like the next 5-10 years as he predicts. I mean f**k if we can turn back the clock that already gives us all sorts of beauty advantages like hair growth and firmer skin etc..
Jusken, I think you're right to say the key will be in data mining. I mean sure maybe a scientist won't be able to figure out how genes work in concert to make a good looking person but something crazy advanced like a quantum computer (Kavan we're close to that right?) could potentially figure s**t like that out by instantly examining millions of gene combinations and simulating them in a computerized human model so that they wouldn't even have to run trials on a real human.
Is this s**t all just science fiction, or would any of that be possible?
I do find this s**t sad and depressing. There's something so pathetic about us and these base superficial desires isn't there?
Honestly the truth is I can't stand my appearance and I want to change it. But as my youth dwindles I also wonder what for and why and where is all of this going or is this just a f**ked up obsession that's killing me and that is robbing whatever precious life I have left....
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So I don't know how upto date you are on this stuff and you may be right but according to George Church who runs one of the most advanced Crispr labs any sort of gene therapy can be applied to adults through virus that go into the body and clip or activate particular genes etc.
I mean I know s**t about this other than watching some lectures but his whole lab is working on aging reversal and that's apparently possible in animals and stuff now. Actually reversing the organism to a more youthful stage with changes in appearance and performance etc.
That said, to edit the genome for beauty I mean that would involve potentially thousands of genes and do we really know what the possible side effects would be?
Kavan, you have a strong science background, do you think George Church's work is legit and do you think we'll see applications to us in like the next 5-10 years as he predicts. I mean f**k if we can turn back the clock that already gives us all sorts of beauty advantages like hair growth and firmer skin etc..
Jusken, I think you're right to say the key will be in data mining. I mean sure maybe a scientist won't be able to figure out how genes work in concert to make a good looking person but something crazy advanced like a quantum computer (Kavan we're close to that right?) could potentially figure s**t like that out by instantly examining millions of gene combinations and simulating them in a computerized human model so that they wouldn't even have to run trials on a real human.
Is this s**t all just science fiction, or would any of that be possible?
I do find this s**t sad and depressing. There's something so pathetic about us and these base superficial desires isn't there?
Honestly the truth is I can't stand my appearance and I want to change it. But as my youth dwindles I also wonder what for and why and where is all of this going or is this just a f**ked up obsession that's killing me and that is robbing whatever precious life I have left....
Making an ugly adult beautiful is very much in the realm of science fiction for now. This really is quite a feat (basically reverse engineering human development), and like Plosko said might be very far away. Making someone healthier and extending their lifespan might actually be a lot easier tbh... so there's that atleast. There was only a couple groups working on this problem just several years ago, and that number has grown to like a dozen just in the last couple years.
I'm fairly certain there will be some amount of 'science fiction' breakthroughs in my lifetime though based on what I'm seeing happening. Trying to predict exactly what's going to happen or how it will happen isn't really possible. We're all just along for the ride for now.
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In the end it will be easier to select (or genetically engineered) for healthy, good looking offspring rather than try to fix adults. We might just be the last ugly, mortal generation.
Most people on this site and also on Lookism aren't ugly. Some are good looking. Also, most incels for example, aren't ugly, mostly they are just above average. And that's the problem. If you come from far or you have a really big flaw in one part of the face, like a very retruded chin, then surgery most likely will help. But if your face is already in 'harmony' but lacks 'something' here and there though doesn't have a big flaw, that's when surgery becomes tricky and most of these people get worse from surgery. Lazlo is right when he talks about these older people having done surgery. Not one of them looks better. Not a single one of them, men or women. I guess when you're too old for this stuff, it's really over. Nothing you can do about it.
I saw a movie a couple of months ago with Russell Crow and Tom Cruise. clCruise is two years older but looked way better than Crow, who looked like a really old man. Now, you can say 'Tom Cruise does all kind of PS', but I think he only does small stuff like chemical peeling, maybe some botox. His ageing genetics are just fantastic. Crow looked good when he were younger, but obviously has way worse ageing genetics. That's just luck, you can't fix it with PS, despite all the advertisement from surgeons. PS for ageing is pure scam. There's not a single Hollywood actrees or actor, with all their money, that looks younger after PS. They all look fake, that's for sure.
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Most people on this site and also on Lookism aren't ugly. Some are good looking. Also, most incels for example, aren't ugly, mostly they are just above average. And that's the problem. If you come from far or you have a really big flaw in one part of the face, like a very retruded chin, then surgery most likely will help. But if your face is already in 'harmony' but lacks 'something' here and there though doesn't have a big flaw, that's when surgery becomes tricky and most of these people get worse from surgery. Lazlo is right when he talks about these older people having done surgery. Not one of them looks better. Not a single one of them, men or women. I guess when you're too old for this stuff, it's really over. Nothing you can do about it.
I saw a movie a couple of months ago with Russell Crow and Tom Cruise. clCruise is two years older but looked way better than Crow, who looked like a really old man. Now, you can say 'Tom Cruise does all kind of PS', but I think he only does small stuff like chemical peeling, maybe some botox. His ageing genetics are just fantastic. Crow looked good when he were younger, but obviously has way worse ageing genetics. That's just luck, you can't fix it with PS, despite all the advertisement from surgeons. PS for ageing is pure scam. There's not a single Hollywood actrees or actor, with all their money, that looks younger after PS. They all look fake, that's for sure.
I’ve seen several examples of older people achieving a good aesthetic result. There was an older lady on this board who had a great result with Alfaro.
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So I don't know how upto date you are on this stuff and you may be right but according to George Church who runs one of the most advanced Crispr labs any sort of gene therapy can be applied to adults through virus that go into the body and clip or activate particular genes etc.
I mean I know s**t about this other than watching some lectures but his whole lab is working on aging reversal and that's apparently possible in animals and stuff now. Actually reversing the organism to a more youthful stage with changes in appearance and performance etc.
That said, to edit the genome for beauty I mean that would involve potentially thousands of genes and do we really know what the possible side effects would be?
Kavan, you have a strong science background, do you think George Church's work is legit and do you think we'll see applications to us in like the next 5-10 years as he predicts. I mean f**k if we can turn back the clock that already gives us all sorts of beauty advantages like hair growth and firmer skin etc..
Jusken, I think you're right to say the key will be in data mining. I mean sure maybe a scientist won't be able to figure out how genes work in concert to make a good looking person but something crazy advanced like a quantum computer (Kavan we're close to that right?) could potentially figure s**t like that out by instantly examining millions of gene combinations and simulating them in a computerized human model so that they wouldn't even have to run trials on a real human.
Is this s**t all just science fiction, or would any of that be possible?
I do find this s**t sad and depressing. There's something so pathetic about us and these base superficial desires isn't there?
Honestly the truth is I can't stand my appearance and I want to change it. But as my youth dwindles I also wonder what for and why and where is all of this going or is this just a f**ked up obsession that's killing me and that is robbing whatever precious life I have left....
TBH, I'm not really familiar enough his work....not enough to ponder the extrapolations applicable to creating human perfection in the venue of beauty that you like to make. Just enough to have read it has capacity to edit out stuff like HIV from babies to be born, extend life span, and implant genes of extinct woolly mammoth to modern elephant and most importantly (which does NOT seem to be the direction you're wanting) is that he could clone a NEANDERTHAL baby.
ETA:
I would not jump the conclusions you would like to make from his work as to it going in the direction of perfecting human beauty.
SPIEGEL: Could you also stop the procedure halfway through and build a 50-percent Neanderthal using this technology.
Church: You could and you might. It could even be that you want just a few mutations from the Neanderthal genome. Suppose you were to realize: Wow, these five mutations might change the neuronal pathways, the skull size, a few key things. They could give us what we want in terms of neural diversity. I doubt that we are going to particularly care about their facial morphology, though (laughs).
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I’ve seen several examples of older people achieving a good aesthetic result. There was an older lady on this board who had a great result.
With Alfaro?
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With Alfaro?
You might be right about that. I searched briefly for the thread but couldn’t remember where it was. Either way, it’s not true that older folks never get an aesthetic result. As I recall she was extremely happy with both her cosmetic and functional improvements.
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I’ve seen several examples of older people achieving a good aesthetic result. There was an older lady on this board who had a great result .
Compared to 99 percent that look way worse. I also see results from people that show me their results and are satisfied while they look worse or I see no difference. The human brain has the capacity to make someone believe the results of the procedures are good. It's just another cope of the human brain.
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You might be right about that. I searched briefly for the thread but couldn’t remember where it was. Either way, it’s not true that older folks never get an aesthetic result. As I recall she was extremely happy with both her cosmetic and functional improvements.
Was her screen name; 'Langpam' and was this her video?
https://vimeo.com/256391377
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Thanks for your insights kavan as well as jusken, and ben.
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Was her screen name; 'Langpam' and was this her video?
https://vimeo.com/256391377
Yeah, it was Langpam. I see her posts in the ‘overbite’ section now. It’s also one of the best results I’ve ever seen for a patient of any age.
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Yeah, it was Langpam. I see her posts in the ‘overbite’ section now. It’s also one of the best results I’ve ever seen for a patient of any age.
OK. I just need to edit the posts .
ETA: postbimax, I edited the posts.
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OK. I just need to edit the posts .
ETA: postbimax, I edited the posts.
I saw her result before. Wow it's so heartening to see someone who actually came out happy and with a clearly great result.
I have so many questions about someone getting that done at her age.
How did she go through the orthodontic treatment? Her teeth look fine and her papilla look present. Or did Alfaro do a surgery first approach with her?
I think I asked her about whether she had any numbness and she evaded the question saying something like I love my results I don't care about that. But I forget.
Some people are just really lucky with surgery. I'd say more often than not you end up with lifelong complications. I'm really coming down to that view. I need a revision for sure. But the things I need like expansion of the upper jaw and somehow making more space for the tongue --I don't know if there are surgeons who know how to do it.
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^ Could you do multisegment lefort, lazlo? or did you already have that as part of 1st surgery? I'm in same boat with no room in my mouth and it all comes back to extractions. Did you ever consider reversing them?
Generally it seems older patients who do jaw surgery for sleep apnea come out of it pretty happy. Being able to breathe outweighs any other complications.
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^ Could you do multisegment lefort, lazlo? or did you already have that as part of 1st surgery? I'm in same boat with no room in my mouth and it all comes back to extractions. Did you ever consider reversing them?
Generally it seems older patients who do jaw surgery for sleep apnea come out of it pretty happy. Being able to breathe outweighs any other complications.
Hi April, remind me of your surgery details? How old are you? I'm sorry you also need a revision.
Well Sinn said he did a multisegment lefort. But the problem is that that because i had both upper and lower bicuspid extractions my lower dental arch is very narrow and pushed significantly back.
And the lower dental arch determines how much the upper arch can be expanded.
Also, the tongue movies with the lower jaw when brought forward so the amount of space you have never actually changes even though your jaws are advanced.
I'm seeing some surgeons over the next several months to ask about what can be done. Maybe Sarpe or some form of CCW rotation. I've been advised NOT to have the extractions reversed because moving the teeth again that much may be very detrimental for the roots and could involve losing teeth eventually.
I can't believe something like this has basically ruined my life. There is not a minute during the day that I'm not aware of my tongue sitting between my teeth and being curled back because of the lack of space. I never had any of these problems before orthodontics/extractions. I didn't even have that much crowding. He could have left it well as it was, I could have had the surgery and I'd be fine. Instead he ended up elongating the bloody treatment by almost four years (I was in braces forever) and causing all these problems.
If anyone has any idea of what can be done in such a situation, please let me know.
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Hi April, remind me of your surgery details? How old are you? I'm sorry you also need a revision.
Well Sinn said he did a multisegment lefort. But the problem is that that because i had both upper and lower bicuspid extractions my lower dental arch is very narrow and pushed significantly back.
And the lower dental arch determines how much the upper arch can be expanded.
Also, the tongue movies with the lower jaw when brought forward so the amount of space you have never actually changes even though your jaws are advanced.
I'm seeing some surgeons over the next several months to ask about what can be done. Maybe Sarpe or some form of CCW rotation. I've been advised NOT to have the extractions reversed because moving the teeth again that much may be very detrimental for the roots and could involve losing teeth eventually.
I can't believe something like this has basically ruined my life. There is not a minute during the day that I'm not aware of my tongue sitting between my teeth and being curled back because of the lack of space. I never had any of these problems before orthodontics/extractions. I didn't even have that much crowding. He could have left it well as it was, I could have had the surgery and I'd be fine. Instead he ended up elongating the bloody treatment by almost four years (I was in braces forever) and causing all these problems.
If anyone has any idea of what can be done in such a situation, please let me know.
Yeah I had 10 years of braces (including a round of extractions, in addition to my wisdom teeth), which caused my palette to change drastically and my tongue to have very little room in my mouth. For the last 3 years of treatment, my orthdontist very subtly expanded and moved my teeth forward. It created a small bit of space, but my roots are extremely short because of all this work. It obviously would have been better to get 1 round of braces with jaw surgery, but growing up in a small town, everyone was completely against surgery.
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I don't understand why it's not possible to somehow detach the tongue from the lower jaw and move it forward and then re-attach the tongue further back.
I could only go through orthodontics again if it was a short treatment --like 6-12 months and was done so that I could have a surgical solution to my problem.
I basically need my upper arch expanded by like 10mm and my lower and upper arch moved forward 5-7mm. Then I'd have enough space.
My sympathies are with you Jusken. People don't realize how f**king horrible this trapped feeling is. It affects every element of your physiology and your psyche.
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Hi April, remind me of your surgery details? How old are you? I'm sorry you also need a revision.
Well Sinn said he did a multisegment lefort. But the problem is that that because i had both upper and lower bicuspid extractions my lower dental arch is very narrow and pushed significantly back.
And the lower dental arch determines how much the upper arch can be expanded.
Also, the tongue movies with the lower jaw when brought forward so the amount of space you have never actually changes even though your jaws are advanced.
Sorry I haven't had surgery yet - I'm still navigating my way through this, trying to figure the best route to go. I'm 34. I just meant the same boat with no space in my mouth. My arches are ridiculously small too with upper/lower extractions and also all wisdom teeth out. It's a real sick joke if you ask me. I need space in all dimensions, but mainly forward I think. There's a book whose title explains the feeling well - six-foot-tiger, three-foot-cage.
That sucks. I assumed that advancing the jaws would provide more tongue space, but given what you're saying from your own experience with Sinn and what you've explained, it doesn't sound like the answer is that simple. I want to open up the spaces in my upper arch, but I don't think I can either because I have bad roots as a result of all the braces work. I feel trapped as well- physically with the lack of space, emotionally trying to figure all this out, and trapped financially too.
I have heard something about the 'AGGA' appliance helping with all this, but I don't know much about it, it might just be the same as opening up the spaces. I'll have to do some digging.
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I saw her result before. Wow it's so heartening to see someone who actually came out happy and with a clearly great result.
I have so many questions about someone getting that done at her age.
How did she go through the orthodontic treatment? Her teeth look fine and her papilla look present. Or did Alfaro do a surgery first approach with her?
I think I asked her about whether she had any numbness and she evaded the question saying something like I love my results I don't care about that. But I forget.
Some people are just really lucky with surgery. I'd say more often than not you end up with lifelong complications. I'm really coming down to that view. I need a revision for sure. But the things I need like expansion of the upper jaw and somehow making more space for the tongue --I don't know if there are surgeons who know how to do it.
It was surgery first, and she said she doesn't have any numbness at all.
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Hi April, remind me of your surgery details? How old are you? I'm sorry you also need a revision.
Well Sinn said he did a multisegment lefort. But the problem is that that because i had both upper and lower bicuspid extractions my lower dental arch is very narrow and pushed significantly back.
And the lower dental arch determines how much the upper arch can be expanded.
Also, the tongue movies with the lower jaw when brought forward so the amount of space you have never actually changes even though your jaws are advanced.
I'm seeing some surgeons over the next several months to ask about what can be done. Maybe Sarpe or some form of CCW rotation. I've been advised NOT to have the extractions reversed because moving the teeth again that much may be very detrimental for the roots and could involve losing teeth eventually.
I can't believe something like this has basically ruined my life. There is not a minute during the day that I'm not aware of my tongue sitting between my teeth and being curled back because of the lack of space. I never had any of these problems before orthodontics/extractions. I didn't even have that much crowding. He could have left it well as it was, I could have had the surgery and I'd be fine. Instead he ended up elongating the bloody treatment by almost four years (I was in braces forever) and causing all these problems.
If anyone has any idea of what can be done in such a situation, please let me know.
It sounds as though your issue is you didn't get enough CCW. Have you consulted with Gunson/Relle/Wolford?
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It sounds as though your issue is you didn't get enough CCW. Have you consulted with Gunson/Relle/Wolford?
Yes, I too think a strong CCW may be able to slightly relieve my issues a bit. Like does that mean that if the front part of my upper arch moves up and is angled out then they'd be able to bring the lower jaw more forward without the tongue coming forward as well? I mean why do YOU think it would create more space in my mouth/for my tongue. If CCW would bring the back of the upper arch DOWN wouldn't that then trap my tongue or does it not bring it that far down. Thanks.
Do you think GUnson is a good fit for this or would Alfaro be better? After all, this problem has taken me to the brink of suicide so I really do need to get it right this time.
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....the tongue movies with the lower jaw when brought forward so the amount of space you have never actually changes even though your jaws are advanced.
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It's the chin movement with the genio that has more of an effect on the base of tongue. But what ultimately gives more room for the tongue is the displacements of the maxilla, eg. forward advancement if that's what is cramping it and/or making it wider if narrowness is a factor.
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It's the chin movement with the genio that has more of an effect on the base of tongue. But what ultimately gives more room for the tongue is the displacements of the maxilla, eg. forward advancement if that's what is cramping it and/or making it wider if narrowness is a factor.
So because teeth were taken out on the bottom arch and pushed back (maybe some minimal forward movement of the back teeth, i doubt it) if my tongue lies on the base of my mouse i have to either curl it back or have it lie ON TOP of the bottom teeth with my mouth slightly open). So I need some kind of forward space there.
And yes, the maxilla is narrow so I lay my tongue on the roof of my mouth, as well as forward. I either keep my tongue curled back in my mouth or i keep my teeth slightly ajar and let my tongue rest between them as if i was going to bite my tongue. Both options are horrible and I need to discover a way to fix this. It is truly driving me mad.
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So because teeth were taken out on the bottom arch and pushed back (maybe some minimal forward movement of the back teeth, i doubt it) if my tongue lies on the base of my mouse i have to either curl it back or have it lie ON TOP of the bottom teeth with my mouth slightly open). So I need some kind of forward space there.
And yes, the maxilla is narrow so I lay my tongue on the roof of my mouth, as well as forward. I either keep my tongue curled back in my mouth or i keep my teeth slightly ajar and let my tongue rest between them as if i was going to bite my tongue. Both options are horrible and I need to discover a way to fix this. It is truly driving me mad.
I'm just saying the forward movement of the maxilla is the more salient aspect of tongue space given your statement of: "...the amount of space you have never actually changes even though your jaws are advanced."
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So because teeth were taken out on the bottom arch and pushed back (maybe some minimal forward movement of the back teeth, i doubt it) if my tongue lies on the base of my mouse i have to either curl it back or have it lie ON TOP of the bottom teeth with my mouth slightly open). So I need some kind of forward space there.
And yes, the maxilla is narrow so I lay my tongue on the roof of my mouth, as well as forward. I either keep my tongue curled back in my mouth or i keep my teeth slightly ajar and let my tongue rest between them as if i was going to bite my tongue. Both options are horrible and I need to discover a way to fix this. It is truly driving me mad.
I don't know much about how moving the mandible affects tongue position but FWIW I feel like I have much more space in my mouth after my bimax advancement.
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I don't know much about how moving the mandible affects tongue position but FWIW I feel like I have much more space in my mouth after my bimax advancement.
can I ask you your movements again? That might help me know what is lacking...
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can I ask you your movements again? That might help me know what is lacking...
about 10mm advancement for both jaws plus small genioplasty and either slight impaction or downgraft to close my open bite. I didn't have tongue problems before but my mouth always felt a bit 'small' on the inside, and I feel as though I have more space now. I don't know how applicable this is to your case; I just thought I'd offer my experience.
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about 10mm advancement for both jaws plus small genioplasty and either slight impaction or downgraft to close my open bite. I didn't have tongue problems before but my mouth always felt a bit 'small' on the inside, and I feel as though I have more space now. I don't know how applicable this is to your case; I just thought I'd offer my experience.
Thanks I appreciate that. Out of curiosity did the large maxilla advancement cause unwanted facial changes?
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Thanks I appreciate that. Out of curiosity did the large maxilla advancement cause unwanted facial changes?
Yeah, pretty significant. Convex lip, nostril flare, upturned nose. My aesthetic result was poor.
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Yeah, pretty significant. Convex lip, nostril flare, upturned nose. My aesthetic result was poor.
And then there's me who got so little soft tissue support from the operation.
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Do you think GUnson is a good fit for this or would Alfaro be better? After all, this problem has taken me to the brink of suicide so I really do need to get it right this time.
Either one would be good. It doesn't really matter.
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Yes, I too think a strong CCW may be able to slightly relieve my issues a bit. Like does that mean that if the front part of my upper arch moves up and is angled out then they'd be able to bring the lower jaw more forward without the tongue coming forward as well? I mean why do YOU think it would create more space in my mouth/for my tongue. If CCW would bring the back of the upper arch DOWN wouldn't that then trap my tongue or does it not bring it that far down. Thanks.
Do you think GUnson is a good fit for this or would Alfaro be better? After all, this problem has taken me to the brink of suicide so I really do need to get it right this time.
Wolford.
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Wolford.
Just out of curiosity Plosko, why dod you think Wolford is the guy. Why do you think this will help my tongue? Just wanting a deeper explanation. I respect your experience and knowledge.