jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: tie on August 28, 2019, 08:26:17 AM
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Hi all
I'm new here, My first post But i have read the threads for the a while , n try to educate myself on many terms i knew nothiong about
(and I still will say i don't get them all )
My storyis a bit long and compliated . Sorry in advanced (it's the shortest i could - but it's still totally long - i know)
If someone is willing to read i'll be glad .
My English is NOT my main langaue so PLEASE FORGIVE ME IN ADVANCED for my not the best english.
My problem is both auesthetic and medical.
I prcaticly live in hell - i'll expalin.
I'm 42 yo guy. Till age 32 i was healthy more or less
- i looked ok . Always looked totally younger then i am .
At the age of 32 i had an health disaster of chronic debilitating pain syndrome.
It started when I went to a dentist to do simple dental procedures.. and after that got home and EXTREME UNBELIEVABLE PAIN started ...
Pain was mostly in the tooth i was like all day going for years with pain that felt like the tooth being extracted out my mouth without anesthesia...
I lived with teeth pain all day. n ( i will also mention that 2 years before it all started i got hit severly on my my left cheeck. maybe it's connected.
I'll SKIP many many many stages in to make it shorter- since that day I 'm living with chronic pain which is almost 24/7 extreme pain in my teeth and gums...
It has started on the left side.. and severeal years later Its also on only 2 specific teeth on the upper right side in the back (theeth since than been extracted) .
What also had happened is that i also noticed my jaw has totally changed its look like got crooked to the right
About my chronic pain contidion - over the years i've I've been to tens and tens and tens of doctors in all fields . pain clinics... I was given all on the meds possible
neurologiclal meds.. .pshychiatric meds.. strong opiates (narcotics) , medical marijuana many done many procedure that are irrelevant to here... etc) did all the scans (CT MRI) etc that are possible (BUT not cepg scan - cause it wasn't related to the medical problem)
Doctors don't know what it is - even thought there are many many cases like mine.
For the last 10 years i baically live in hell - and I've quit my job 2 years ago - a job which i was at for 12 years because of
the extreme pain. I basically have no life.
What other thing that hads happened - is that i have totally lost my look - and i've noticed it just right after my pain started.. even a doctor in the ER noticed it than.
My face got so weird to look at , so UNPLEASANT which totally DEVASTATES
I can't look at who i have become in the mirror anymore .
It's totally extreme to me -
I've posted pictures of me i know they're not ideal - but i don't have much "old" pictures of me to show .
I have never would have thought i'll publish pictures of me of nowdays anywhere - cause to me they look terrble - I totally can't look at my currnet picture...
and of course not to publish them .
In my facebook profile - I don't have any pics of me.
There is an important point i must say -
If you give advice - I have always had a gentle look, boyish.. you can say feminite if you want - and that was OK for me.
I liked the harmonic - nice to the eye, unique shape of me jaw -
I'm not looking into "manly jaws look " ,
i know many times when you give advice here you refer to manly models jaws , square jaws - i'm not into that .
That's not my characther . And it's ok for me. I don't need squrish jaw.. .i just like harmonic jaw with nice proportoion to look at.
Please consider this.
https://imgur.com/a/hYfMDxx
What i have observed about myself over the years (and doctors in my country WON'T admit it they have no auesthtic eye) :
1. Jaw got larger, rough in a way (the angles of mandiblue got rougher ) and jaw height/legnth got shroter. Ramus got shroter. and like pulled more backwards .
2. Let's talk about the "elephant" in the room. I know i have gotten bald. Lost all my hair i'm getting totally bald . I know that.
I know it contributes to the bad look but lets talk about the jaw.
3 . Under eye got sunken - more tired look. I need maybe filler theres .
5. Eyebrows fallen - cheeck falling - like sagging - i'm sure it's not natural again - but it's due to face getting shorter . Need probobaly fillers in cheek
than the skin got sagging - it it less "streched" because face is shorter.
4. My CHIN got about 50% SMALLER , less dense . :/ Dont know why. it can defintly seen in some pics. My feeling is due to my bone totally getting thiner... the skin on it gets less strech.. cause no bone to hold it neneath.
5. My face will look thinner to you in the pics; . but i didn't lose weight - if any i've gained body weight because of all medications.
Last of all - i've added my PANO picture. I don't have ceph . 2 years ago i've lost 2 upper back molars . I've extracted there because of the extreme pain in my mouth. It didn't help - i still have pain there inside in the bone -
So - there is no way i can do implants any soon . So it might be - that you would say that without these teeth - i can't do anything. I don't know.
I'm also aware - due to my medical situation - i doubt anyone will operate me - i just wonder - if there could be any connection between pains in my mouth .. to this chnage of shape.. of collapsing of face.. shortherning of ramus.
I feel - my jaw need to get lowered even a cm (make jaw longer) and to the left (this can't much be seen in the pics) like the ramus bone longer and to make more pleasing to the eye proportions between it to the bone that goes from under the ear to chin.
Will be glad to your aueathetic advices regards all kinds of jaw surgeries (i have no knowledge what i need to do - i just know i wish i could give back my jaw to the one it was 10 years ago)
There are such great members here that i totally love reading their insights they have much more auesthtic eye than many many of the surgeons i see online. (i never had any surgery myself).
Be gentle with the remarks please i know my look has changed drastically .
Sorry for the length if you read it this far .
Great thanks you all
https://imgur.com/a/hYfMDxx
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Firstly, 10 years worth of aging is not going to look as good as it did 10 years ago.
Secondly, a pain condition is going to increase the rate of that faster than someone who doesn't have one.
Thirdly, with BONE LOSS to the jaws which is what happens with tooth loss, there is not same support as was prior to the soft tissue.
So, all those things contribute to the changes you're describing. The salient one is BONE LOSS to the face attributable to TOOTH LOSS. The tooth bearing part of bone shrinks. With that there is loss of muscle and/or soft tissue support.
If this type of pain started after DENTAL WORK and this pain persisted such that you got more DENTAL WORK to actually EXTRACT the teeth yet it still persisted, it would call into question the DENTISTS who did it especially the second one IF he extracted based on just a description of pain BUT NO actual infection to tooth or absence of seeing a normal cause for tooth pain which is usually an infection. However, I don't know the facts and circumstances of why more teeth were extracted other than to tell you if they were pulled PURELY on your description of pain BUT in ABSENCE of their seeing any CAUSE (pathology to the tooth) for the pain (infection to the root of tooth for example), that's called; 'FAILURE TO DIAGNOSE'.
The most likely thing failed to be diagnosed could be TRIGEMINALNEURALGIA. Of course, I can't diagnose or identify what you have from here. But just to say TN is something dentists like to say they don't cause. They just like to believe TN comes 'out of nowhere' even if you first notice extreme pain that lasts forever soon after a dental procedure. BUT if they actually DON'T find any pathology to a tooth they extract and just extract based on complaints of pain there, then THAT is 'failure to diagnose' IF you do have TN and had it at the time of extraction.
Here's a link to TN but you can find many others.
http://trigeminalneuralgia-ronaldbrismanmd.com/Dental-Issues.html
IMO, you should explore further whether or not you have TN. If you do, you might have a legal case against the dentist who extracted (if he extracted but did not find any pathology to the tooth). It could mean he failed to diagnose TN.
Again, I DON'T know what you have or if you have TN. But since you relay it's a 'mystery' that 'no one knows what it is', it should be the FIRST thing you explore further.
IF you didn't have a 'mystery' pain condition that resulted in bone loss, then the treatments for bone loss would first be bone grafting to the jaws for the GOAL of putting in tooth implants. Loss of bone prominence elsewhere such as cheeks, jaw line and chin could be addressed via face implants.
Although there might be things you could do that don't operate on the bones which are things in the venue of what people get when they have aging (eg. face lifts and fat grafts which improve look of aging but really don't make one look just like they did when younger), ANY kind of operation you get to the face will hinge on your getting a diagnosis of what this pain condition could be, if the meds for it are ok to be on when getting anesthesia and most importantly, IF it's something that would be triggered even MORE in any pursuit of a type of procedure to improve aesthetics.
Bottom line is that you have to pursue a diagnosis as to what this pain condition is and get some kind of medical CLEARANCE in order to have a surgery/surgeries to the face.
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Hi kavan -
First - Thanks for taking the time and answer with such details. It' not taken for granted .
You are totally right - of course natural aging + being ten years in sorrow- in pain - (also face muscles being in pain and not stimulating my face
due to pain- of course - all this increases face atrophy etc.
But the change was real drastic - i'm conviced there is more - and it's all
conacted - the fact that my pain is in the mouth area - and the fact my facial features have changed - i think it might be connected (i might be wrong).
You are right totally saying that the extractions can cause bone loss. I've read here in the archive some stories of that. People saying their face
got real sunken even after one tooth extraction.
I DO think my face got worse even BEFORE the extractions due.
But i do belive some of the things you wrote - ARE the cause of this.
I wonder what cause this bone loss except the extractions... i did a full bone scan - and they have seen slight osetopany . But what causes it - unknown.
You are very VERY observant about the how things happened with the teeth. (about the dentits etc. - and the fact that dentists shouldn't have pulled healthy teeth ).
You are totally right . But it was more complicated than this .
I just couldn't write here my whole medical journey and the nightmare i've lived
for 10 years..
About - TN - many thanks.
I know about TN - from the start they have suspected that. But I don't have the claasic TN - so it's more complicated . I have the Atypical type (meaning the cause is unknown)
(the charactheristic of my pain doesn't fit the classic TN.. and i didn't respond to any of the TN meds. It's complicated - again - i don't want to eleborate here to spare you all the length.
Yes - the reason of the pain must be found.. .over the years i've talked to MANY people which have exactly the same situatation as me .. and there are many facebook groups with people like that .. many live in the same hell (trivia fact : TN is called "the suicide disease" cause the pain is that bad).
Anyway - the pain is totally 100% the thing that in my mind all day- BUT to be honest with myself the change in my look devastates me akmost the same as the pain.
I can't look at my self in the mirror... i don't go out because of the pain - but even if i did - i don't want to because i look so different and wierd.. totally unatractive .
So yes - i start to think - "they can't help my pain - but maybe at least in the "look front" i can fight it and do something , at least in THAT
front - to cure myself give back at least 50% of my looks. I deserve this .
But , as you smartly observed again - yes Im aware any surgery on my face can aggrevates the pain (even due what frightned me most is the CUTS INSIDE MOTUTH-
since my pain is in the soft tissue and part of bone inside mouth - that's where i fear most of the cuts - other areas of face - i don't care).
I do know that if i look at the mirror , and pull my jaw DOWN (not even forward) just down and give it a little "twist" to the left , it's giving to
me a more pleasing look in my eyes . After finding this forum - i started thinking it might be possible even.
If you have time - lets put the pain aside for a moment- if you look at my pics the metamorphisiz i've had .. and a person would asked you to analyse what can be done
if surgically in the field of jaw surfery something should be done - what would you have said ?
And anyway - much thanks for the detailed answer !
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Hi kavan -
First - Thanks for taking the time and answer with such details. It' not taken for granted .
You are totally right - of course natural aging + being ten years in sorrow- in pain - (also face muscles being in pain and not stimulating my face
due to pain- of course - all this increases face atrophy etc.
But the change was real drastic - i'm conviced there is more - and it's all
conacted - the fact that my pain is in the mouth area - and the fact my facial features have changed - i think it might be connected (i might be wrong).
You are right totally saying that the extractions can cause bone loss. I've read here in the archive some stories of that. People saying their face
got real sunken even after one tooth extraction.
I DO think my face got worse even BEFORE the extractions due.
But i do belive some of the things you wrote - ARE the cause of this.
I wonder what cause this bone loss except the extractions... i did a full bone scan - and they have seen slight osetopany . But what causes it - unknown.
You are very VERY observant about the how things happened with the teeth. (about the dentits etc. - and the fact that dentists shouldn't have pulled healthy teeth ).
You are totally right . But it was more complicated than this .
I just couldn't write here my whole medical journey and the nightmare i've lived
for 10 years..
About - TN - many thanks.
I know about TN - from the start they have suspected that. But I don't have the claasic TN - so it's more complicated . I have the Atypical type (meaning the cause is unknown)
(the charactheristic of my pain doesn't fit the classic TN.. and i didn't respond to any of the TN meds. It's complicated - again - i don't want to eleborate here to spare you all the length.
Yes - the reason of the pain must be found.. .over the years i've talked to MANY people which have exactly the same situatation as me .. and there are many facebook groups with people like that .. many live in the same hell (trivia fact : TN is called "the suicide disease" cause the pain is that bad).
Anyway - the pain is totally 100% the thing that in my mind all day- BUT to be honest with myself the change in my look devastates me akmost the same as the pain.
I can't look at my self in the mirror... i don't go out because of the pain - but even if i did - i don't want to because i look so different and wierd.. totally unatractive .
So yes - i start to think - "they can't help my pain - but maybe at least in the "look front" i can fight it and do something , at least in THAT
front - to cure myself give back at least 50% of my looks. I deserve this .
But , as you smartly observed again - yes Im aware any surgery on my face can aggrevates the pain (even due what frightned me most is the CUTS INSIDE MOTUTH-
since my pain is in the soft tissue and part of bone inside mouth - that's where i fear most of the cuts - other areas of face - i don't care).
I do know that if i look at the mirror , and pull my jaw DOWN (not even forward) just down and give it a little "twist" to the left , it's giving to
me a more pleasing look in my eyes . After finding this forum - i started thinking it might be possible even.
If you have time - lets put the pain aside for a moment- if you look at my pics the metamorphisiz i've had .. and a person would asked you to analyse what can be done
if surgically in the field of jaw surfery something should be done - what would you have said ?
And anyway - much thanks for the detailed answer !
Although I don't volunteer to do an in depth detailed analysis on here, I've already said within my past post what could be done if you didn't have the pain. Reread it.
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Thanks Kavan
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You're 42 years old. Do you really expect to look like 32 again? You deal with sagging skin etc. because like most people, you're just ageing. Also, you have like norwood 4, so if you want to look younger and healthier, you should do a ht as well. And besides that, take a decent haircut and live healthy to lose some fat in the face before you consider doing something about the jaw.
I see sunken eye when people get older. You can take an implant or something like that, but do you really want to do that at age 42? I do understand your dissatisfaction, but imo 90 percent of people look not so good at age 42.
You looked good when you were younger (you still don't look really bad, just normal for a 42 year old). Treasure that.
I don't know, maybe it will make you happier to move bones or take implants to bring back more bonestructure, but it might also be just normal ageing process. Doing sports and taking hair implant with a decent haircut might improve your looks too.
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Hi Ben -
Thanks for responding.
Yes - of course the hair plays a major rold here.. even in the lengthy of my face. Thanks.
Yes - of course we are againg - but look again at this link i've attached..
https://imgur.com/a/fvLIt9M
In pics 4 + 6 look at just at the chin.. and ramus.. like the face totally lost the vertical dimention in chin .
I look at my brother he is 2 year younger than me (40) and my mother (70) they still have good shape of bones - proportional ..my brother is 40 had good strong chin that didn't change for the last 10 years...
I think my face has reallt dramaticall changed . And i don't care the "Change" - i care that i look bad. i realy it's worse. I see people avoiding eye contact with me.. i mean people takling with me .. not just people ... doctors etc... no one can look at me my face look so unproportinal to look at.. .they are also "off" you can see in it pic no 4 +6 .. they are "off" to the left and the lips like the mouth "swallows" the upper lip. But mostly the bertical dimention lost . I know many people here looking to "forward" to jaw . In my case i totally feel in need to down + the left a bit .
you can even see my nose - that was proportional - now looks way bigger -beacuse of the third part of mouth lowering.
That's my view. And of course i'm not happy to move bones in face.. not in my medical condition for sure.. but the emotinal suffering is also terrible.
Anyway - thanks again
https://imgur.com/a/fvLIt9M
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Hi Ben -
Thanks for responding.
Yes - of course the hair plays a major rold here.. even in the lengthy of my face. Thanks.
Yes - of course we are againg - but look again at this link i've attached..
https://imgur.com/a/fvLIt9M
In pics 4 + 6 look at just at the chin.. and ramus.. like the face totally lost the vertical dimention in chin .
I look at my brother he is 2 year younger than me (40) and my mother (70) they still have good shape of bones - proportional ..my brother is 40 had good strong chin that didn't change for the last 10 years...
I think my face has reallt dramaticall changed . And i don't care the "Change" - i care that i look bad. i realy it's worse. I see people avoiding eye contact with me.. i mean people takling with me .. not just people ... doctors etc... no one can look at me my face look so unproportinal to look at.. .they are also "off" you can see in it pic no 4 +6 .. they are "off" to the left and the lips like the mouth "swallows" the upper lip. But mostly the bertical dimention lost . I know many people here looking to "forward" to jaw . In my case i totally feel in need to down + the left a bit .
you can even see my nose - that was proportional - now looks way bigger -beacuse of the third part of mouth lowering.
That's my view. And of course i'm not happy to move bones in face.. not in my medical condition for sure.. but the emotinal suffering is also terrible.
Anyway - thanks again
https://imgur.com/a/fvLIt9M
Oh yeah, I totally agree with your judgement. Everything you say is true and I totally believe you when you say people treat you differently. If you are unhappy with it, which is totally understandable, you should certainly do something about it.
I agree that your lower third looks shorter and your nose looks bigger. To be honest, I find it a strange case cause your bonestructure was very good a couple of years ago. It seems there's not only the ageing process but also a hormonal thing or something like that. Maybe a drastic decrease in testosteron, I don't know.
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That’s a drastic change..I’m so sorry. Fixing your hairline would be a start. Implants or JS could make a difference but I’m perplexed by what looks to be a large amount of bone loss. Man..
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This kind of thing isn't my forte, and pictures are a bad gauge, but honestly all I am seeing is a guy who got older, lost hair, and gained weight. The weight gain seems to be causing all the perceived changes to the jaw. I bet if you lost 15lbs and put on a hat you'd look similar, and your jaw and chin would look similar. People age, though, unfortunately. And weight is a b*tch for the jaw.
My suggestion: lose 10-15lbs, then reassess.
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Oh yeah, I totally agree with your judgement. Everything you say is true and I totally believe you when you say people treat you differently. If you are unhappy with it, which is totally understandable, you should certainly do something about it.
I agree that your lower third looks shorter and your nose looks bigger. To be honest, I find it a strange case cause your bonestructure was very good a couple of years ago. It seems there's not only the ageing process but also a hormonal thing or something like that. Maybe a drastic decrease in testosteron, I don't know.
Ben , Thanks for seeing that (what i see) . Yes - I was never never saw myself as "beautiful" and never was - but i had a unique look i liked.. .as you wrote - i totally had cheekbones .. and now it's all gone . I feel i've lost 50% of the volume of my face.. and i have no idea how to stop it. And all in about 8 years... feel this kinda change should take...30 years.. it's no real. Im really devestated.
About the hormones - yes - right - good thought - i thought so too - but did testo blood tests and hormones - and it came out in the range . Like i've got no one to ask . When i saw doctors in my country about this - they don't understand... they see me now .. weird looking guy - they think - that's who i am .. .they tell me "nah.. nothing is wrong" "stop looking in the mirror so much". It's totally BS.. .they understand nothing in auesthetics. For the modren doctors - all improtant is health.. they don't undresant that lost of look can be devastating to people just as health. And more sometimes. especially when it's justified and not just a person complaining about random pimple he has that no one sees.
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This kind of thing isn't my forte, and pictures are a bad gauge, but honestly all I am seeing is a guy who got older, lost hair, and gained weight. The weight gain seems to be causing all the perceived changes to the jaw. I bet if you lost 15lbs and put on a hat you'd look similar, and your jaw and chin would look similar. People age, though, unfortunately. And weight is a b*tch for the jaw.
My suggestion: lose 10-15lbs, then reassess.
Thanks GJ.. look at the pictures i've posted to BEN FROM UK.. look at the chin there - maybe you'll see it. But may be not. About the weight - it hasn't changed. ..since ago 20 i'm at the same weight .. just the same.. if so i've added maybe 2-3 kg.. no more.. my body is totally thin as it was
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Thanks GJ.. look at the pictures i've posted to BEN FROM UK.. look at the chin there - maybe you'll see it. But may be not. About the weight - it hasn't changed. ..since ago 20 i'm at the same weight .. just the same.. if so i've added maybe 2-3 kg.. no more.. my body is totally thin as it was
Huh, weird. Muscle weighs more than fat, so did you lose muscle tone?
You could be the same weight, then, but still look fatter if you've lost muscle. You mention medication, too, and I know when people get on some medications they look totally different and lose muscle/atrophy.
Bones can change over time, but usually that's in the 60s or 70s. It's hard to imagine that happened, but I guess it's possible.
I'll defer to others because this is out of my realm.
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Huh, weird. Muscle weighs more than fat, so did you lose muscle tone?
You could be the same weight, then, but still look fatter if you've lost muscle. You mention medication, too, and I know when people get on some medications they look totally different and lose muscle/atrophy.
Bones can change over time, but usually that's in the 60s or 70s. It's hard to imagine that happened, but I guess it's possible.
I'll defer to others because this is out of my realm.
Yes - i guess it can be both . Muscles - because of my illness - i didn't use my facial muscles sometimes for monthes (!) - i didn't talk or smile - cause it hearts. So yes - atrophy could have happened. And from what i know - the bone needs active pressure on it - to keep rebuliding - so this might explain SOME of it. I'm sure there is a reason behind all this - cause my look deterorates dramaticly every few monthes.. I've ordered some special splints from the web - to excersise my jaw (we'll see -i doubt if it can ever REALLY do a dramatic change that i need).
Totally right about the medications - from a healthy 32 yo guy - being 10 years on different meds - yes- totally can be from meds. I'm also sure the meds accelerates my hair shedding. I totally noticed it- some DRAMASTICALLY increased my hair shedding. I totally had VERY unique big harmonic bones on face and it's like beneath average now - and decreased in like 50% my face shrunk.
Thanks for your thoughts on this GJ.
BTW - anyone knows plastic surgerons in Europe (not ths US - can't travel there) That have great auesthetic eye - and know about implant s ? Thanks all
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Huh, weird. Muscle weighs more than fat, so did you lose muscle tone?
You could be the same weight, then, but still look fatter if you've lost muscle. You mention medication, too, and I know when people get on some medications they look totally different and lose muscle/atrophy.
Bones can change over time, but usually that's in the 60s or 70s. It's hard to imagine that happened, but I guess it's possible.
I'll defer to others because this is out of my realm.
People lose bonemass after the age of 35. This can go quite fast. Combine this with sagging skin and soft tissue loss due to ageing, and the face can change dramatically. Facial beauty is about millimeters here and there.
I mean, look at most 40 year old men. Even the very good looking men can turn into bad looking rapidly past a certain age. Women age drastically beginning at the age of 30, men a couple of years later (35). From there on, it usually goes quite fast.
He has bad ageing genetics, combined with some other thing maybe. I do believe he can rebuild bonemass though. How to do it is another question. Most people don't care about their looks anymore past a certain age, but if you do, and looks has been a major part of your identity, life can become a nightmare. I totally understand OP.
Thing is, implants are a very tricky and delicate procedure. Very very few surgeons know the art. Most of them are conmen who don't know anything about aestethics and this guy seems to need some changes in different parts of his face.
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Yes - i guess it can be both . Muscles - because of my illness - i didn't use my facial muscles sometimes for monthes (!) - i didn't talk or smile - cause it hearts. So yes - atrophy could have happened. And from what i know - the bone needs active pressure on it - to keep rebuliding - so this might explain SOME of it. I'm sure there is a reason behind all this - cause my look deterorates dramaticly every few monthes.. I've ordered some special splints from the web - to excersise my jaw (we'll see -i doubt if it can ever REALLY do a dramatic change that i need).
Totally right about the medications - from a healthy 32 yo guy - being 10 years on different meds - yes- totally can be from meds. I'm also sure the meds accelerates my hair shedding. I totally noticed it- some DRAMASTICALLY increased my hair shedding. I totally had VERY unique big harmonic bones on face and it's like beneath average now - and decreased in like 50% my face shrunk.
Thanks for your thoughts on this GJ.
BTW - anyone knows plastic surgerons in Europe (not ths US - can't travel there) That have great auesthetic eye - and know about implant s ? Thanks all
Can you try getting off the meds and rebuilding muscle tone?
I'd try that before anything because it's a cheap and natural approach with a proven track record. I recently lost weight and gained muscle tone and look much younger/better.
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(https://imgur.com/KGGJ4GP)
THis is an 48 years old guy from my country - he is a show host on TV.
I'm sure he has some work done - but still - that's the proof so many people today don't lookl "old" at 40...40 isn't the death line of look.
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People lose bonemass after the age of 35. This can go quite fast. Combine this with sagging skin and soft tissue loss due to ageing, and the face can change dramatically. Facial beauty is about millimeters here and there.
I mean, look at most 40 year old men. Even the very good looking men can turn into bad looking rapidly past a certain age. Women age drastically beginning at the age of 30, men a couple of years later (35). From there on, it usually goes quite fast.
He has bad ageing genetics, combined with some other thing maybe. I do believe he can rebuild bonemass though. How to do it is another question. Most people don't care about their looks anymore past a certain age, but if you do, and looks has been a major part of your identity, life can become a nightmare. I totally understand OP.
Thing is, implants are a very tricky and delicate procedure. Very very few surgeons know the art. Most of them are conmen who don't know anything about aestethics and this guy seems to need some changes in different parts of his face.
Thanks Ben for that . Yes - my looks is totally a thing that's devestating me.. totally .. more over when that change of shape is so rapid and quick.
If you know of any PS in europe you know of that does implants and also understand auesthetic needs - i'll be glad to hear. Totally agree - facaill beauty is totally about militers sometimes ..many people don't even aware of this. Even though in my case - over time - i know i'll know about few Centimiters not milimiters of change to get some of my pleasing look Many thanks Ben
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Thanks Ben for that . Yes - my looks is totally a thing that's devestating me.. totally .. more over when that change of shape is so rapid and quick.
If you know of any PS in europe you know of that does implants and also understand auesthetic needs - i'll be glad to hear. Totally agree - facaill beauty is totally about militers sometimes ..many people don't even aware of this. Even though in my case - over time - i know i'll know about few Centimiters not milimiters of change to get some of my pleasing look Many thanks Ben
I think people sometimes underestimate what 2 or 3 millimeters of implant around the whole jaw and chin can do. I wouldn't be surprised if alot of people that put in 10 millimeter of jaw on both sides, thinking 'the bigger the better', are dissappointed with the results. It's not only about width, or maybe less about width than about angularity and natural looking results. But I might be wrong and maybe it depends on the face. Looking at your younger face, it's the angularity and sharpness that does the trick, and the harmony of the face.
I don't know any good implant surgeon in Europe. Or maybe one. I think his name is Dr. Nimo in Rotterdam (not sure). An asian guy. I base this only on the results I saw in his office. I never had work done with him. Maybe he isn't good and he showed me just lucky results. I think alot of asian surgeons have a better aestethic eye than other surgeons. I might be wrong though.
He's not a nice guy and doesn't make you feel comfortable. But that doesn't say anything about someone's skill. He works with silicone I think. I personally don't like silicone and prefer Peek, but it depends on the size of the implant as well.
In my opinion, the area that should be targeted with implants when it comes to angularity is really the lower boarder of the jaw. I see alot of implant designs going high up, pushing the masseter outward, ruining the shadows and ogee line and creating a bloated face. Not good.
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Can you try getting off the meds and rebuilding muscle tone?
I'd try that before anything because it's a cheap and natural approach with a proven track record. I recently lost weight and gained muscle tone and look much younger/better.
No - i don't think i can , i've been on and off the meds for years.. i've started taking them again - they are for pain - i can't quit them. They give me only 30% relief but it's better than nothing .
When you say build muscle tone - you mean in the face ? A specfic method to gain muscle tone in the face ? Thanks
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I think people sometimes underestimate what 2 or 3 millimeters of implant around the whole jaw and chin can do. I wouldn't be surprised if alot of people that put in 10 millimeter of jaw on both sides, thinking 'the bigger the better', are dissappointed with the results. It's not only about width, or maybe less about width than about angularity and natural looking results. But I might be wrong and maybe it depends on the face. Looking at your younger face, it's the angularity and sharpness that does the trick, and the harmony of the face.
I don't know any good implant surgeon in Europe. Or maybe one. I think his name is Dr. Nimo in Rotterdam (not sure). An asian guy. I base this only on the results I saw in his office. I never had work done with him. Maybe he isn't good and he showed me just lucky results. I think alot of asian surgeons have a better aestethic eye than other surgeons. I might be wrong though.
He's not a nice guy and doesn't make you feel comfortable. But that doesn't say anything about someone's skill. He works with silicone I think. I personally don't like silicone and prefer Peek, but it depends on the size of the implant as well.
Thanks. I'll tell you something . A few years ago, after my face has changed.. When i was looking at my self in the mirror - i like .. hm.. i don't know the word... "pulled" my chin a bit down and to the left . .. just a bit.. and imagine my mandible angle less rough and i looked totally fine totally ...or strech a bit the skin near my eyes horizotly - i would have returened to look more than OK .. i could have seen "myself" again.. just in 2-3 streches of the face.
In the last year- i've even lost that. To see a bit of my old "me" - i need to pull my chin -i think 2 cm down.. and to the left ..to get more firm.. defined face . I wonder if it's even possible to pull the chin that low.. and what will be with the teeth .. it will create a terrible gap . It's really just a fantasy i guess.
You are totally right... i used to know how in many cases .. just a slight milimeter or two of change... or slight angle change - can make a person look totally different for the better.
you have also spoted the right thing - In my younger years .. till age 32 the angle of my mandible was very harmony and firm and THIS angle has totally changed . I've even showed my pics to a plastic surgeon about 3-4 years ago - and he looked at my face and totally saw that the angle has changed and he was shocked but he didn't know what to advice me .
I Do hope i'll be able to find and understand or find a total doctor than will have sensitive eye to understand the change i've had - and know what to do to make me more pleasable to the eye so even when i'll end the saga of the pain i deal with - i'll be able to live my life - since my dyspohria is really extreme to the exatant i can't deal with it sometimes.
Thanks Ben !
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Do you have any old TMJ scans to compare with new ones? The only way I can think the jaw angle changing is something in the TMJ.
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Thanks. I'll tell you something . A few years ago, after my face has changed.. When i was looking at my self in the mirror - i like .. hm.. i don't know the word... "pulled" my chin a bit down and to the left . .. just a bit.. and imagine my mandible angle less rough and i looked totally fine totally ...or strech a bit the skin near my eyes horizotly - i would have returened to look more than OK .. i could have seen "myself" again.. just in 2-3 streches of the face.
In the last year- i've even lost that. To see a bit of my old "me" - i need to pull my chin -i think 2 cm down.. and to the left ..to get more firm.. defined face . I wonder if it's even possible to pull the chin that low.. and what will be with the teeth .. it will create a terrible gap . It's really just a fantasy i guess.
You are totally right... i used to know how in many cases .. just a slight milimeter or two of change... or slight angle change - can make a person look totally different for the better.
you have also spoted the right thing - In my younger years .. till age 32 the angle of my mandible was very harmony and firm and THIS angle has totally changed . I've even showed my pics to a plastic surgeon about 3-4 years ago - and he looked at my face and totally saw that the angle has changed and he was shocked but he didn't know what to advice me .
I Do hope i'll be able to find and understand or find a total doctor than will have sensitive eye to understand the change i've had - and know what to do to make me more pleasable to the eye so even when i'll end the saga of the pain i deal with - i'll be able to live my life - since my dyspohria is really extreme to the exatant i can't deal with it sometimes.
Thanks Ben !
Well, I mean, the changes speak for themselves. You can debate about minor changes, but everyone can see the drastic changes based on your pics. Still, I think aming to get the old face back is a bit too high. You were 8 years younger. There's skin change and soft tissue change, glowing younger skin, you can't completely go back to the previous state. But, sure, making cheekbones, jaw more angular, a hair transplant, and maybe lengthening of the chin, why not? Just follow your intuition and do what you think makes you happier.
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Do you have any old TMJ scans to compare with new ones? The only way I can think the jaw angle changing is something in the TMJ.
I have some pano scans over the years ... they did send me to MRI of jaw joint which they said it was OK. But i don't much trust them to read it good. When i come to think about it - that's what i though years ago just by looking at myself that my joint like my left jaw took itself from it's place and reposined itself in another spot
In about 2011 i did a full body scan and they saw something suspicious in my left mandibule , where my pain was. It was some kind of a bone spur in the jaw (which i could feel it externally - and doctors always dismissed me) .. this bone spur has now readuced it's size . But anyway -i've done many MRI's and they found nothing .. not in head not in jaw.
If something changing in the TMJ like you said.. and a TMJ surgery is needed to put the whole joint in place - it's different from all the surgeryies we are talking here , right ? I can imaging that if they put the joint in a diffrent spot, the correct spot it can change the whole shape of this side .. since the whole tmj is connected to the cheek.. chin etc...
Anyway according to oral surgeron here .. i don't have TMJ...or at least not something that needs attention.
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Well, I mean, the changes speak for themselves. You can debate about minor changes, but everyone can see the drastic changes based on your pics. Still, I think aming to get the old face back is a bit too high. You were 8 years younger. There's skin change and soft tissue change, glowing younger skin, you can't completely go back to the previous state. But, sure, making cheekbones, jaw more angular, a hair transplant, and maybe lengthening of the chin, why not? Just follow your intuition and do what you think makes you happier.
Thanks . About the " jaw more angular," , and lenghthening the chin - do you know (in your view) what are the procedures needs for that ? For the chin are we talking implant - as we talked ? And the angular jaw ?
And thanks for seeing all those things i also noticed
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TMJ surgery is usually full replacement.
It would be pretty obvious on a scan. The TMJ would change shape and also be very small (sometimes pointy). CBCT is the best scan to see that.
If you can upload old photos of the joint (10 years ago) compared with recent that might help rule that in or out. I see what looks like weight change and atrophy in those photos, but if the angle has changed joint issue is possible.
I'm not sure what specific exercises you can do to tone your face. You can probably look that up and find info. I'd try that along with gaining muscle tone, then get a CBCT to rule out the joint. Standard pictures can be deceptive and are one of the worst diagnostic tools.
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Thanks GJ.
Not sure i have old scans available to upload . (yap. I never thought 10 years ago that i would need these 10 years after).
Anyway - lets' say the MRI for example have many many many slices, you know - it's a 3D which hundreds of pictures .. How can i know which image to upload ? I guess it's the profile image ?
Unfortunetly - i did'nt do much CBCT to that area. I did many many many cbct's and scans for the teeth each year a PANORAMIC scan. too much radiation - i'm afraid now to ask for another CBCT of jaw. Even though i think CBCT will be much better than MRI in this case showing bones for example.