jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: jawgraphy on May 02, 2021, 09:36:30 AM
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As far as I'm aware, DJS is no joke. With many patients recording their journey online showing the weeks and months of recovery, consisting of non-solids, swelling, and pain, etc.
Yet, from what I have seen of Alfaro's technique, unless I am very much mistaken, he can achieve such results with less recovery time...
I'd like to know why this is..
Is the eventual outcome likely to be as good as those with a longer healing process?
Or am I just being taken in by effective marketing...?
Thank you
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I can't think of any reason his patients would recover faster.
Unless he operates on younger patients mostly, as they do tend to recover faster.
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I don't know where you got such information, because even Alfaro says himself on his website, that residual swelling takes up 18month to disappear. Also he states, that during the first three days swelling reaches its peak. So I don't read anything special, it is the same like everywhere else.
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As far as I'm aware, DJS is no joke. With many patients recording their journey online showing the weeks and months of recovery, consisting of non-solids, swelling, and pain, etc.
Yet, from what I have seen of Alfaro's technique, unless I am very much mistaken, he can achieve such results with less recovery time...
I'd like to know why this is..
Is the eventual outcome likely to be as good as those with a longer healing process?
Or am I just being taken in by effective marketing...?
Thank you
I put up a link about the PIEZOELECTRIC BONE SURGERY and the technology behind it that he's using in the educational section. https://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,8318.msg77043.html#msg77043
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There's no mystery to me why patients would heal faster with the technology he's using.
But from your response here are you conveying that my attempts to shed light on the type of technology used on this thread: https://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,8310.15.html
actually made the concepts behind piezoelectric technology MORE difficult to understand than LESS?
Like is it a matter of you 'can't' think of any reason healing time would be less or you don't want to think about the reason?
Perhaps that might reflect the rest of the population on here.
Well this is a pot shot and should be deleted.
But the bottom line is that many/most surgeons use those techniques, so he shouldn't have any faster recovery times.
So, to reiterate, no there is no reason he should have faster recovery times.
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Well this is a pot shot and should be deleted.
But the bottom line is that many/most surgeons use those techniques, so he shouldn't have any faster recovery times.
So, to reiterate, no there is no reason he should have faster recovery times.
It would stand to reason that he would because he's combining it with endoscopic technique which I also covered in the other thread. Sorry you took it as a pot shot. It's not as if I thought you 'couldn't' think of any reasons. More of a thing where I thought you would given my prior efforts in the other thread where it appeared you were aware of how the technology allowed for claims of faster healing.
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Ugh.... do you guys not realize that he peforms the surgery with TWILIGHT not GENERAL ANESTHESIA? And moreover his special technique allows him to do the surgery within 2 hours time instead of the usual 6 (minimum) for regular DJS with a genio. For the lefort part he uses some kind of pinhole surgery technique that is less invasive and subjects you to less surgical trauma (otherwise how could he use twilight?).
Maybe his results are s**ttier? But those two factors make it likely his will heal faster because they have not been subjected to as much trauma. Residual swelling is BS.
You are basically what you're gonna look like at 6 months.
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Ugh.... do you guys not realize that he peforms the surgery with TWILIGHT not GENERAL ANESTHESIA? And moreover his special technique allows him to do the surgery within 2 hours time instead of the usual 6 (minimum) for regular DJS with a genio. For the lefort part he uses some kind of pinhole surgery technique that is less invasive and subjects you to less surgical trauma (otherwise how could he use twilight?).
Maybe his results are s**ttier? But those two factors make it likely his will heal faster because they have not been subjected to as much trauma. Residual swelling is BS.
You are basically what you're gonna look like at 6 months.
There was a member here who had his "minimally invasive lefort" and ended up with upper jaw numbness. Others who had lower jaw numbness. At the end of the day, nerves are still stretched.
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There was a member here who had his "minimally invasive lefort" and ended up with upper jaw numbness. Others who had lower jaw numbness. At the end of the day, nerves are still stretched.
That's totally true. There can be no denial that nerves would be stretched (from traction of displacement) and numbness would follow. But who's claiming things like; 'nobody is going to have no numbness' such that it needs to be disclaimed. It ISN'T HIM. It's people who find their way to JSF asking questions AS IF he's claiming that.
In fact, one of the first things that Google kicked up when I searched; 'chin numbness, numbness after jaw surgery' was HIS website where he opened topic on this possibility. I gotta wonder why some of the people coming to JSF asking about nerve numbness with him don't look on his own website. He's got a whole page about the possibilities of nerve numbness. TLDR types (too long didn't read or too lackadaisical to do any research). So these 'I need to know' (about Alfaro) questions are sometimes people who need to be spoon fed or are looking for either some type of guarantee from here or a poison pill about him. I say this because true knowledge seekers would be seeking out SOURCES, such things as material about piezolectric bone surgery and what's there on his website as to nerves. The former puts things into perspective, especially the shorter healing time, quicker speed of surgery the higher someone is on the learning curve with the technology and why that is so. The latter, most certainly discloses there will be nerve numbness. It's all there to find.
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I mean isn’t the recovery mostly just waiting for new bone to form and strengthen? There is really no way to speed that process up with any surgical technique. Maybe you could take anabolic steroids to speed up bone healing a little.
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I mean isn’t the recovery mostly just waiting for new bone to form and strengthen? There is really no way to speed that process up with any surgical technique. Maybe you could take anabolic steroids to speed up bone healing a little.
If you have less damage, then you need less recovery time. What would be the case, if the surgeon use some methods, which prevent unnecessary damage.
Also you can speed up recovery by having still a normal nutritional diet, especially with high protein intake.
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If you have less damage, then you need less recovery time. What would be the case, if the surgeon use some methods, which prevent unnecessary damage.
Also you can speed up recovery by having still a normal nutritional diet, especially with high protein intake.
Maybe it’s helpful to break it down into short term and long term recovery.
Short term recovery of soft tissue damage from getting inside the face to cut the bones can be minimized with good surgical technique. Better technique of cutting the bones and attaching fixation will help with post operative swelling too. Some surgeons use more fixation than others which obviously also increases trauma.
Long term recovery of your bones is down to your body though. No matter how you do this surgery you have to sever the bones. It’s the whole point of the surgery. It’s no different than breaking an arm. You wouldn’t break your arm and expect it to heal faster because you went to a better cast maker.
So a better surgeon will get you less swelling post op but it won’t get you eating hard foods any faster.
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I mean isn’t the recovery mostly just waiting for new bone to form and strengthen? There is really no way to speed that process up with any surgical technique. Maybe you could take anabolic steroids to speed up bone healing a little.
If the recovery is mostly just waiting for the bone to heal, then why not also experience the, discomfort, distortion, recovery from collateral damage of soft tissue while waiting that you could experience without this type of technology?
It's like if I'm waiting for an Amtrack train, then why wait in the VIP room where it's more comfortable than where everybody else waits. The train is still going to take the same time to arrive right? Maybe I could take some Xanax for the train to come faster.
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Maybe it’s helpful to break it down into short term and long term recovery.
Short term recovery of soft tissue damage from getting inside the face to cut the bones can be minimized with good surgical technique. Better technique of cutting the bones and attaching fixation will help with post operative swelling too. Some surgeons use more fixation than others which obviously also increases trauma.
Long term recovery of your bones is down to your body though. No matter how you do this surgery you have to sever the bones. It’s the whole point of the surgery. It’s no different than breaking an arm. You wouldn’t break your arm and expect it to heal faster because you went to a better cast maker.
So a better surgeon will get you less swelling post op but it won’t get you eating hard foods any faster.
I agree, that broken bone is broken bone and that no technique will let it heal faster.
But recovery phase is not a period, where you do nothing. It is a period, where you try to slow down the process of degenerating your body as good as possible. There is no excuse to not maintain a good nutrition diet (even without chewing), because you can just drink a lot of meal replacement powder. It is more or less cheap for a short period.
The only reason to not drink it, would mean to not drink at all. One of the reason to not drink would be soft tissue discomfort. If there are techniques, which can ease this discomfort so you can maintain a normal nutritional diet (that means drinking your meals), then you won a lot.
Many DJS patients just have a sloppy diet after the surgery, what is the main cause of many problems, which occur during and after the recovery phase (in my oppinion).
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I can't think of any reason his patients would recover faster.
Unless he operates on younger patients mostly, as they do tend to recover faster.
Perhaps I made a mistake with this. I guess the main message put forward by his videos is more of a 'quick operation time' as opposed to 'quick recovery time'.
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My bad if i made a mistake. I guess when I see the nicely edited tutorial videos they make it seem like a simpler, faster, easier process than it really is..?
But at least the results are clear. It seems fairly transparent...
What annoys me in this part of my research journey is how so many websites appear to not even show results?!?! Like...what is going on here? Why would I contemplate choosing you as a surgeon if I can't even take a look to see what you are capable of.
I recently spoke to one surgeon in the UK and he explained he cannot show results as it is against his privacy policy..... I suggested blurring certain facial features to hide their identity and was met with another denial....
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Ugh.... do you guys not realize that he peforms the surgery with TWILIGHT not GENERAL ANESTHESIA? And moreover his special technique allows him to do the surgery within 2 hours time instead of the usual 6 (minimum) for regular DJS with a genio. For the lefort part he uses some kind of pinhole surgery technique that is less invasive and subjects you to less surgical trauma (otherwise how could he use twilight?).
Maybe his results are s**ttier? But those two factors make it likely his will heal faster because they have not been subjected to as much trauma. Residual swelling is BS.
You are basically what you're gonna look like at 6 months.
"Maybe his results are s**ttier? ".... Can i ask why you think that..? I'm genuinely curious that's all. I figured they looked good, but I'm fairly new to this stuff.
Are there any surgeons that you think look way better..? Ideally if they are similarly priced...
Thank you :)
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I agree, that broken bone is broken bone and that no technique will let it heal faster.
But recovery phase is not a period, where you do nothing. It is a period, where you try to slow down the process of degenerating your body as good as possible. There is no excuse to not maintain a good nutrition diet (even without chewing), because you can just drink a lot of meal replacement powder. It is more or less cheap for a short period.
The only reason to not drink it, would mean to not drink at all. One of the reason to not drink would be soft tissue discomfort. If there are techniques, which can ease this discomfort so you can maintain a normal nutritional diet (that means drinking your meals), then you won a lot.
Many DJS patients just have a sloppy diet after the surgery, what is the main cause of many problems, which occur during and after the recovery phase (in my oppinion).
"Many DJS patients just have a sloppy diet after the surgery, what is the main cause of many problems, which occur during and after the recovery phase (in my oppinion)." - Interesting. What 'many negative affects' can poor diet have in your opinion? How can they avoid this..? Just eat nutritious food basically?
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Perhaps I made a mistake with this. I guess the main message put forward by his videos is more of a 'quick operation time' as opposed to 'quick recovery time'.
Quick operation time is definitely possible. This depends on methods and techniques.
A nice perk of that is you might not need a catheter.
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Quick operation time is definitely possible. This depends on methods and techniques.
A nice perk of that is you might not need a catheter.
My operation was like 8 hours and I had no catheter. I'm never allowing a catheter if I have surgery, I'm just going to tell them to put diapers on me and let me miss myself to sleep.
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I'm not sure that Alfaro is any worse than the other top surgeons. But Plosko Plus has talked about how his results are inferior because the bite is usually off or off-center. I can't really see it, but I may not be looking at the right portions.
Also, what price did he quote you for DJS? You can DM me on that matter since we don't like to post surgery fees on the forum to discourage price gouging. I have heard that Alfaro is unusually expensive which doesn't make sense since he's a very high volume doctor and his procedure is far quicker (2 hours max) so I don't think it's justified that he charges so higher prices. In addition, if his results aren't as good (i.e. asymmetry and poor bite relations) then f**k THAT MOTHERf**kER.
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Perhaps I made a mistake with this. I guess the main message put forward by his videos is more of a 'quick operation time' as opposed to 'quick recovery time'.
If you read the link I put up here, (about the technology), there is also a quicker recovery time. Quick operation time has to be with being very high on the learning curve with the technology used.
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My bad if i made a mistake. I guess when I see the nicely edited tutorial videos they make it seem like a simpler, faster, easier process than it really is..?
But at least the results are clear. It seems fairly transparent...
What annoys me in this part of my research journey is how so many websites appear to not even show results?!?! Like...what is going on here? Why would I contemplate choosing you as a surgeon if I can't even take a look to see what you are capable of.
I recently spoke to one surgeon in the UK and he explained he cannot show results as it is against his privacy policy..... I suggested blurring certain facial features to hide their identity and was met with another denial....
I don't know what the rules are in the UK. Some countries used to disallow using patient photos even if ok with patient. Some places consider putting the photos up on websites marketing. However, if you see patient photos on OTHER UK websites, then the surgeon is just choosing not to show them EVEN IF the patients give an OK. If in person consult, you should look for before/afters. If they still don't show, then keep consulting with others.
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I'm not sure that Alfaro is any worse than the other top surgeons. But Plosko Plus has talked about how his results are inferior because the bite is usually off or off-center. I can't really see it, but I may not be looking at the right portions.
Also, what price did he quote you for DJS? You can DM me on that matter since we don't like to post surgery fees on the forum to discourage price gouging. I have heard that Alfaro is unusually expensive which doesn't make sense since he's a very high volume doctor and his procedure is far quicker (2 hours max) so I don't think it's justified that he charges so higher prices. In addition, if his results aren't as good (i.e. asymmetry and poor bite relations) then f**k THAT MOTHERf**kER.
Kind of what 'surgery first' is all about. It's something where the ORTHO is responsible for approving surgery first and also making sure the bite fits afterwards.
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Kind of what 'surgery first' is all about. It's something where the ORTHO is responsible for approving surgery first and also making sure the bite fits afterwards.
yeah but if your bite is already good, can he do DJS so your bite is what it was before? so you don't need an ortho?
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yeah but if your bite is already good, can he do DJS so your bite is what it was before? so you don't need an ortho?
If your bite is good, the type of surgery that goes with that is the linear advancement. I think if it's not that, ortho would probably be needed. He has the ortho make the evaluations as to who can have with or without ortho (first or after). That's how the surgery first doctors approach. It's the orthodontist who decides.
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"Many DJS patients just have a sloppy diet after the surgery, what is the main cause of many problems, which occur during and after the recovery phase (in my oppinion)." - Interesting. What 'many negative affects' can poor diet have in your opinion? How can they avoid this..? Just eat nutritious food basically?
The main negative effect is just the same like in every surgery: You stop being active for a certain time period. Stop being active accerelates your aging process, that means your body degenerates. The degeneration process is really fast. If Athletes stop doing training for a month, then they are losing 20% of their strength (after 1 month!). And that was just the strength lose. The reduction of your endurance is even faster. Especially losing endurance is really painful, that is what makes you feel really old.
After a DJS this degeneration process is even faster for many patients, because they don't eat well. So yes, what you can basically do is to eat proper. That is possible, if you just drink liquid food and it should be real meal replacement liquid food, not just soups or some smoothis.
For soft tissue healing you need alot of amino acid, so a higher protein intake after a surgery is necessary.
Anyway, I think it was enough offtopic.
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I have heard that Alfaro is unusually expensive
Yes, he is. I know we don't discuss prices here on the forum so I will not go into details but he is very, very expensive by (Western) European standards.
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What annoys me in this part of my research journey is how so many websites appear to not even show results?!?! Like...what is going on here? Why would I contemplate choosing you as a surgeon if I can't even take a look to see what you are capable of.
I recently spoke to one surgeon in the UK and he explained he cannot show results as it is against his privacy policy..... I suggested blurring certain facial features to hide their identity and was met with another denial....
I am amazed that anybody agrees to their pictures being used on websites for this reason. My surgeon asked to post my before-afters on his website and offered to change my name and country etc., but I still refused, there is no way I would have agreed in a million years. I don't care if it's blurred or whatever, it is still my face, it is still recognizable. I too noticed that UK surgeons tend not to post before-afters on their websites (if they even have a website) and I like the fact that they respect their patients' privacy. They showed me dozens of before-after pictures in their office when I consulted them in person.
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Interesting. What 'many negative affects' can poor diet have in your opinion? How can they avoid this..? Just eat nutritious food basically?
Of course poor diet can have a negative effect on anybody, this is common sense. In the case of jaw surgery patients, it is not just poor diet but the fact that many can only consume very limited calories, resulting in severe weight loss, weakness etc. It is not so easy as 'just eat nutritious food' lol; you will not be able to eat anything after jaw surgery, I guess you are aware of that? You can only consume liquids in the beginning, and that too if you are lucky. Straight after surgery I could not even drink water because I could not swallow, they had to give me water through a drip in hospital. Weight loss and malnutrition after jaw surgery is no joke. For weeks after the surgery, my whole time and energy was spent on trying to keep my calorie intake up. It was very, very tough. I am quite a disciplined person and I was one of the lucky few that did not need any bands at all after surgery, but the vast majority are banded shut for weeks after surgery so even drinking is a challenge for them, let alone eating / swallowing anything (of course chewing is out of the question for at least 6 weeks).
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If your bite is good, the type of surgery that goes with that is the linear advancement. I think if it's not that, ortho would probably be needed. He has the ortho make the evaluations as to who can have with or without ortho (first or after). That's how the surgery first doctors approach. It's the orthodontist who decides.
What if you don't have an orthodontist who works with Alfaro near you? Do you have to travel there to consult with him? Or can your plans be submitted to him from an ortho here and his ortho will evaulate it?
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What if you don't have an orthodontist who works with Alfaro near you? Do you have to travel there to consult with him? Or can your plans be submitted to him from an ortho here and his ortho will evaulate it?
I don't know. I'm not his secretary. I'm 'just' someone knowledgeable with the scientific principles behind the piezoelectric technology he is using to result in faster healing and very low nerve damage.