jawsurgeryforums.com
Before/After Photos => Other => Topic started by: SV123 on June 14, 2024, 07:22:55 AM
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My surgeon cancelled my fully-paid cosmetic surgery 3 days before the actual surgery date as he did not see mentally fit for the procedure. Am I entitled to a full refund?
My surgeon cancelled my fully-paid cosmetic surgery 3 days before the actual surgery date as he did not see mentally fit for the procedure.
Should I get a full refund despite signing a contract beforehand saying that 'cancellations or no show' get no refund 7 days prior to surgery date, although this did not explicitly mention anything about the surgeon cancelling the surgery.
Also, I was meant to get implants installed and so they probably have been manufactured already. Would I get a refund for those too? I am honestly s**tting myself right now
I paid 65k AUD (including implant material + 3 days hospital stay) for this, I am praying to god I get it back
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As to cancelling things, when I was looking back into your past posts and my responses, I noticed, some of your prior entries along with mine were cancelled as in GONE/deleted. It was a string where the surgeon's displacement read-out chart differed vastly from what he conveyed to you verbally. I have no idea why that was removed. But just to say, I was awaiting to hear the reason he told you some of your displacements were far in excess of those found on your chart.
I don't know who your surgeon is. You don't say. I just know there is one surgeon in Australia who would be the type to feel threatened at one of his patients getting on here and asking questions.Thing is he got suspended and isn't in practice anymore.
I take it that you mean that he cancelled because HE didn't feel mentally fit or was it that he didn't think you were?
Either way, if you didn't cancel and he did, ETHICALLY, he should offer a refund and you should report him to the ethics board. Like to engage a patient in a contract where the doctor can OPT OUT yet KEEP your money is ethically questionable. Legally is different and in venue of 'Breach of Contract'. So, a lawyer is needed to seek out in that regard.
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can I please PM you for advice? I do not want this to be public
BTW the surgeon thought that I, not him, was mentally unfit for surgery
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Sorry. No PMs for private advice. When I respond to an open public post, it isn't an invitation to advise privately. On the contrary, when someone makes an open post for help, the assumption is that they are inviting open help from a variety of people.
Since you don't want this to be public, it gives the message to others, including myself, that you're NOT inviting open help in the public venue. So, your constraints here position me to opt out of this topic matter. However, they don't preclude others from PMing you now that you've clarified the venues (private vs public) the help you get is limited to.
The private venues that seem to be most applicable to your question are ethical and legal as would apply to surgeons in Australia and AFTER it's established that you actually ASKED the doctor for a refund and he refused.
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Ok I understand. I am just really stressed out about the 'refund' meeting I will have next week. The surgeon is based in Europe by the way, I am just originally from Australia.
I know that I will get a refund for the surgical fees since no surgery was performed. I am just stressed out about the possibility of not getting the 3 day hospital stay cost refunded, which was already paid by the surgeon to a seperate clinic prior, and also not getting the manufactured implant cost refunded. In total, these are 1/3 of the total I paid, which is A LOT and it is hard to bear the thought of losing it. :'(
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can I please PM you for advice? I do not want this to be public
BTW the surgeon thought that I, not him, was mentally unfit for surgery
You can make a small donation to join the private forum, as an option. There's no guarantee things there won't be shared, but it's more curated and selective who gets in, so it's less likely.
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Either way, if you didn't cancel and he did, ETHICALLY, he should offer a refund and you should report him to the ethics board. Like to engage a patient in a contract where the doctor can OPT OUT yet KEEP your money is ethically questionable. Legally is different and in venue of 'Breach of Contract'. So, a lawyer is needed to seek out in that regard.
This is what I think, too.
The patient didn't lie about their medical history or anything. The doctor just didn't like a plan being shared, and he jumped to all types of conclusions that lead himself to cancel it. 100% refund in order, and if they don't give that, I'd take them to court.
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This is what I think, too.
The patient didn't lie about their medical history or anything. The doctor just didn't like a plan being shared, and he jumped to all types of conclusions that lead himself to cancel it. 100% refund in order, and if they don't give that, I'd take them to court.
Yes.
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Ok I understand. I am just really stressed out about the 'refund' meeting I will have next week. The surgeon is based in Europe by the way, I am just originally from Australia.
I know that I will get a refund for the surgical fees since no surgery was performed. I am just stressed out about the possibility of not getting the 3 day hospital stay cost refunded, which was already paid by the surgeon to a seperate clinic prior, and also not getting the manufactured implant cost refunded. In total, these are 1/3 of the total I paid, which is A LOT and it is hard to bear the thought of losing it. :'(
Same deal if guy is in Europe. Will depend on laws and ethical codes doctors are bound by in that area and if his actions and/or his 'reactions' to anything you did, were out of bounds. So, all hinges on whether or not he REFUSES to refund, his grounds of refusal and whether or not his grounds were legitimate. There are LOADS of facts and circumstances associated with that. But again, they would be in the venues of law and/or ethics and therefore professionals who are very conversant in those venues.
I understand the anxiety of (potential) financial loss. But YOU first have to establish yourself by asking the party who was the recipient of your funds (the doctor). If he refuses any refund, then time to get a lawyer.
Now, I'm going to ask you some questions that I think you could answer openly without violating your privacy or the doctor's. However, you don't need to. But you should be able to identify (in your own head) which questions relate to your interaction/contract with the doctor. All the questions relate to the doctor possibly engaging you in some type of GAG ORDER type contract and whether or not there were questionable clauses in it or questionable demands he made of you that a lawyer could challenge IF you didn't get a refund. But, of course, first you have to FIND OUT if he gives you a refund and IF he doesn't, what his grounds were.
The questions are in the venue of contract lawyers, type to pursue IF you don't get a refund.
1: Does the reason for your needing 'privacy' have more to do with the DOCTOR'S need for privacy than yours? Like does it have something to do with a 'GAG ORDER' being drafted in your contract. Is there anything in your written contract that says something to the effect that anything you could say about him/your experience with him in an open venue (such as this one or other types like this) will become 'HIS' copyright? Like does he make a claim that your 'freedom of speech' won't be yours anymore because you have assigned him copyright to it? Is there anything in your contract that in some way conveys that future surgery with him is some kind of 'secret' and you're not allowed to discuss anything about it in any open venue where people getting similar types of surgeries congregate? Do you feel that the doctor was somehow 'punishing' you for doing so? Do you feel that he made any demands on you regarding what you could say and couldn't say or where you could or could not talk about your upcoming surgery that infringed on your basic rights to do so? Does anything in the contract he got you to sign (or his verbal explanation of what it meant) actually PRECLUDE you from participating on open venues about maxfax type surgery?
2: Have you shared any documents, such as surgical plans, that on them say something like: 'Copyright (intellectual property) of Dr. so and so, not to be shared without permission'...anything like that? Like he could claim they were his intellectual property or copyright, in which case the protocol is to request you remove them. But when you do remove them, you basically fulfilled any obligation to take them down. Like that alone might not be grounds to cancel your surgery AND not give you a refund.
3: A doctor can cancel a surgery if he feels you/a patient would be 'unhappy' with the outcome or not 'emotionally or physically ready', lacked capacity to follow pre or post surgical instructions...etc. Usually stuff that would relate to your own good. However with stuff in cosmetic surgery venue, they can cancel for lack of rapport/cooperation. There can be a cancel fee with that. But there's got to be some code of ethics or law that doctors are bound by to preclude them from keeping all your money if they cancel. If not, it would be very LUCRATIVE for unethical doctors to collect advanced fees and scam patients out of their money on the basis on some 'contract violation', especially so if there was some questionable contingency within it. For example: 'Oh, you exercised your right to free speech on a message board in violation of my copyright to your free speech that prevents you from exercising it on message board.'
4: When he cancelled your surgery so abruptly, did he also formally sever the doctor patient relationship so you're not his patient anymore and won't be in the future. Like did he give anything in writing explaining why he was ending the doctor/patient relationship? Did he help you find another doctor? Could you have found another doctor in that short span of time? Do, you feel his conduct caused you emotional harm? For example, a lawyer (or the ethics board) would want to look at the ethics of a doctor severing the doctor/patient relationship so abruptly with no formal written explanation of WHY and especially so if he doesn't give you some refund.
5: Claim that you are MENTALLY UNFIT. If he claims you are mentally unfit and that becomes the basis for his not giving you your money back, than you would have also been mentally unfit to sign a contract with him in the first place. Mentally unfit is not too far from signing a contract under duress in which case makes the contract unenforceable. Like you could be mentally unfit or unsound mind. But that would not bind you to financial penalties imposed by his contract. It would void them.
DISCLOSURE: I am NOT a lawyer. I just have a social history of being in close surrounds and having lawyer 'buddies' who were top professors at Harvard Law. I'm not giving you legal advice. I'm just suggesting what type of lawyer (contract law) IF the guy doesn't give you your money back. Basically, if the doctor claims YOU 'violated' your contract and 'that's why' he refuses some refund, maybe you didn't violate it at all. Like maybe you just violated some illegitimate clauses in it that you're not really bound to abide by or maybe you are mentally unfit to engage in a contract which would tend to void any financial forfeit on your part regarding money he wants to keep for himself and not give back to you.
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Thank you kavan and GJ for the responses. I am finally feeling alright after getting a call from the surgeon aha
So I will get a refund of around 32k CHF compared to the 39k CHF I paid since I got planning done, hospital booking and also the scans. I think this is fair since these services were already provided.
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Thank you kavan and GJ for the responses. I am finally feeling alright after getting a call from the surgeon aha
So I will get a refund of around 32k CHF compared to the 39k CHF I paid since I got planning done, hospital booking and also the scans. I think this is fair since these services were already provided.
Did this doctor 'De-Leter' who scours message boards threatening patients to delete their surgery plans also have you sign a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) not to name him in X-change for getting your money back? If so, you still could get a lawyer on the grounds he deemed you 'Mentally Unfit' which you could use as grounds to VOID any obligation to not name him.
ETA: You should get more of it back, especially if he owns an interest in the company that plans and makes the implants and also charged you a booking fee for the hospital you never stayed in.
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I got 34.8k chf back. I am happy with that.
The doctor said it was just because I lied, not that I uploaded my plan online, that triggered the cancellation.
Luckily, the doctor is a good man
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I got 34.8k chf back. I am happy with that.
The doctor said it was just because I lied, not that I uploaded my plan online, that triggered the cancellation.
Luckily, the doctor is a good man
Well, you didn't answer the question as to whether you had to sign a Gag Order/NDA in order to get your money back. He's a man who saw all your posts and responses to them and the potential he could be taken to court if he he didn't give you your money back. So,seeing you had a card to play if he didn't doesn't make him a 'good man'. You're lucky you didn't get botched and have a gag order on you not to talk about it in the process of seeking help/information.
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No I didn't sign an NDA. I only signed the pre-surgical contract which I showed you earlier, nothing more.
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No I didn't sign an NDA. I only signed the pre-surgical contract which I showed you earlier, nothing more.
You didn't show me any pre-surgical contract. So, if you are going to lie to me on behalf of this doctor, I won't be giving you any help in the future.
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Oh sorry, I must have shown it to GJ. I forgot
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I did not request you sent me your contract. DO NOT send me a PM unless I request it. I'm not looking at your contract that you just PM'ed me. I did NOT request to see it. Feel free to DELETE it because I don't want to look at it and find his name is on there. The reason is that I KNEW who the doctor was in the absence of your telling me. I knew who he was a few days ago. So, I don't want you claiming that 'you told' me and I violated your privacy. One of the reasons I request NO PMs is that I don't want to be the recipient of any private information that I in NO WAY request.
Oh sorry, I must have shown it to GJ. I forgot
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Oh wow how did you know who the doctor was prior? Does he have a bad rep?
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Oh wow how did you know who the doctor was prior? Does he have a bad rep?
I have my ways. He's got a rep for seeing to it that some people's posts/accounts get deleted and a patient 'conduit' aka shill on other board/s who offers to give implant advice/design and channels potential patients to him. On same board where potential patients find him, complaints about him get deleted. Like an inquiry about him doesn't get deleted. Like the shill can enter the string and show his photos (and sometimes mention he can design the implants). But if it's known that poster is booked at the practice, the concern is those with complaints will gravitate to your post. Ironic because the same place he gets patients channeled to him through a conduit is the same place he doesn't want patients that he already 'has in his hand' (which he gets from THERE mind you) to go on. He isn't talked up on this board. Some complaints stay up on Reddit though. The guy is smooth as silk and as slick as oil as to charming the patients during a consult. He worked (used to) at a practice that GJ doesn't like mentioned on here.
ETA: I knew who it was on June 16. But not at the time you PMed me
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Oh wow. I never expected the surgeon to be like that. I may have dodged a bullet not getting surgery from him
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It's more like it that HE dodged a bullet because he had concerns that your possible outcome, if showcased on that site, could have lost him the business he gets from there. All this stuff about him not wanting patients from there ('incels') is a FARCE because that's where he gets them. He knows how to 'work it' so they come to him from there. So, that's a doctor gets a crowd from there but wants to pretend he doesn't want that type. FARCE.
By the way, some of the things you've said in other places are open to read. I'm not going to put any links up here because you know where you've said things in other places that you could find yourself. I've already told you that there is someone on a venue that your doctor didn't want you to be on but there is NO indication that the doctor doesn't want the other person to be on. Quite the contrary. The other person openly posts his pics, has offered to give advice on implant design and has people tagging him as to queries about the doctor. Should not be too much to extrapolate the doctor has some type of conduit on there that channels patients to him.
The doctor says he doesn't want people from that venue coming to his practice. So, let's see if you can figure out why the doctor doesn't mind patients being channeled to him from there via the conduit who posted his photos up there. HINT: It's clear the photo is doctor's copyright because its got the backdrop logo on it and is a photo taken in the surgery room. So, if the doctor really doesn't want people coming to him from that venue, then why doesn't he tell the conduit to take down his copyright pictures as to close down the 'passage route' of patients coming to him from the very specific venue he claims he doesn't want patients?
The doctor says he doesn't want people from that venue AND he made quite a show of that to you and enough for you to pass along that he's not a bad guy and just doesn't want incels coming to his practice. It's like if he didn't have some reason to somehow 'know' you came from there in the first place, he wouldn't have put up that much of a SHOW to disclaim that he doesn't want patients from there. That site is a GOLD MINE for him because it's highly populated by 'Chad wannabees'; (it's not really a hard core 'incel' site) people who want a lot of bone cutting surgery and a face full of implants which are designed and made from the company he OWNS.
I'm getting a laugh out your believing he doesn't want people from the venue he has bad things to say about. I guess it never occurred to you that he actually does want people from there but he wants to hide that. Ya right. He doesn't want people from a venue who are actually his TARGET MARKET. It's like this: He would not be making such an effort to DISCLAIM by saying he doesn't want people from there if that wasn't one of his main venues patients are channeled to him from. He just doesn't want to own up to it. He knows who his PEEPS are on there. It's not as if he would want you on there if he's got you in his hand already. So, once you are channeled to him from there, he wants you off of there and doesn't want you asking questions about your displacement proposal. When you have an account there and talk about the surgery you are going to get, people are going to want to SEE the outcome. So, to cut any (marketing) RISK of his not knowing whether or not you are going to be a 'poster boy' for him, your existence on there (and surgery to be) must be ELIMINATED. Like he would be fine with your being on there IF you got a good outcome. But before you actually get one that he would want showcased (on the venue he claims he doesn't want patients from), your outcome might not be something he'd want showcased. Like what if you were unhappy with it or people on there started making fun of it. Such a thing would run INTERFERENCE with one of his MAIN LINE places of attracting patients. If you stayed on there AND you didn't get a great outcome, he'd be losing a chunk of the change he gets from there. It's like that.
It isn't because you lied to him about things which are a doctor's main concern, like health history. You lied to him about a 'concern' he should NOT have imposed on you in the first place, in particular a PRECLUSION to be on VERY venue where he gets patients from. Like he tells you NOT to go on that venue as if he OWNS it. Not saying he does but that is the type of demand or stance of someone who has a hand in it. He made it his 'business' to make sure you didn't stay on the venue he got his business from. I think it's because you could have had a type of outcome that would not have magnetized more patients from there for him.
I have no reason to believe it was 'because' you lied to him. I mean it looks like you would not have lied to him about being on that venue if he had not put up a FALSE FRONT that he 'didn't want patients from there'. You should not feel guilty or remorseful about lying to him. It's not as if he was truthful to you by pretending he didn't want patients from there. He's PLAYED you and to the extent someone did a screen capture of your defending him for being a nice guy who doesn't want incels and you're the one at fault for the false pretenses.
If the guy really doesn't want patients from there (because they are 'incels'), tell him to get his conduit off there who attracts the patients to him and put up a placard on the site saying: 'Members of Name of site need not apply.'
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Ok thanks for the reply. To be honest, I dont really want to think about what happened and just move on lol. Hopefully the next surgeon I meet doesn't screw me over like this (fingers crossed!)