jawsurgeryforums.com
Before/After Photos => Overbites => Topic started by: Heavyweight on June 22, 2012, 06:13:29 PM
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According to Dr. Posnick, I have a long upper jaw (no news to me) and will receive maxillary impaction if I do surgery with him. The thing is, I don't really have much of a gummy smile -- it's only a little bit more than average. Instead, my nose is really long, which makes my face look really ugly and "horsey."
Does anyone know if it's possible to shorten the nose with maxillary impaction (i.e., remove the part of the maxilla that supports the nose)?
See my illustration for clarity:
Standard maxillary impaction:
(http://i.imgur.com/W1dfr.png)
Maxillary impaction with nose shortening:
(http://i.imgur.com/vT9vG.png)
Does anyone know if this is possible?
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This video of maxillary impaction shows exactly what I'm describing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzxGclrto7k
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I don't think you can shorten the midface (nasal base to nasal root) in any substantial way even when you excise the upper portion of the maxilla. If your nasal height is great it means your midface height in general, including structures such as the zygomatic bones etc, are of great height. However the combination of advancement and shortening of the upper jaw and counterclockwise rotation does seem to produce something of an optical shortening effect on the midface.
Now I have the opposite problem. My maxilla/midface are short and my incisor show isn't quite enough but I have a slightly gummy smile. This s**t just doesn't make sense. :-\
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This picture makes it look like the nose is becoming shorter, since the nasal floor is being raised.
*Warning: Graphic*
http://i.imgur.com/PrVMp.jpg
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This picture makes it look like the nose is becoming shorter, since the nasal floor is being raised.
*Warning: Graphic*
http://i.imgur.com/PrVMp.jpg
You always find the most interesting videos/photos. :D
Hmmm, don't see what you're seeing in terms of nose shortening. Would you help me out here?
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You always find the most interesting videos/photos. :D
Hmmm, don't see what you're seeing in terms of nose shortening. Would you help me out here?
It looks like the area being impacted is above the base of the nose. I had always thought the upper jaw was impacted by removing bone below the base of the nose, meaning the nasal height does not change. Instead, it appears that the nasal height does change. I've also read that the suptum must be reduced by roughly the same amount as the impaction, which is further evidence that the nose is being shortened.
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Here's another picture showing what I'm talking about:
(http://i.imgur.com/Oib5W.jpg)
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It looks like the area being impacted is above the base of the nose. I had always thought the upper jaw was impacted by removing bone below the base of the nose, meaning the nasal height does not change. Instead, it appears that the nasal height does change. I've also read that the suptum must be reduced by roughly the same amount as the impaction, which is further evidence that the nose is being shortened.
Okay, now I see what you're saying. The video you posted up-thread pretty much shows the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzxGclrto7k
I can see how the underlying bone structure is shortened but not sure if soft tissue and cartilage of the nose would necessarily follow. Are you referring to changes in tip angle? There might be an optical illusion of shortening that Eroica mentioned.
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Okay, now I see what you're saying. The video you posted up-thread pretty much shows the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzxGclrto7k
I can see how the underlying bone structure is shortened but not sure if soft tissue and cartilage of the nose would necessarily follow. Are you referring to changes in tip angle? There might be an optical illusion of shortening that Eroica mentioned.
Yeah, it's likely that the bony movement doesn't affect the soft tissue all that much. I wonder how much a rhinoplasty can shorten the nose. I sure hope it can, because I fear that my long nose will doom me to ugliness, irrespective of whatever other surgeries I get.
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Yeah, it's likely that the bony movement doesn't affect the soft tissue all that much. I wonder how much a rhinoplasty can shorten the nose. I sure hope it can, because I fear that my long nose will doom me to ugliness, irrespective of whatever other surgeries I get.
I prefer large male noses. You wouldn't want one that is petite/feminine, right?
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I prefer large male noses. You wouldn't want one that is petite/feminine, right?
I agree. Strong noses with high dorsal lines are ideal on men. However, my nose sits very low on my face and is really long. This is a common problem in ugly men, and there doesn't seem to be a real solution for it.
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I agree. Strong noses with high dorsal lines are ideal on men. However, my nose sits very low on my face and is really long. This is a common problem in ugly men, and there doesn't seem to be a real solution for it.
Post some photos of celebrities with the same nose.
Does it look anything like this? Love his nose!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jBml8ukVi44/TaYS2nkYCJI/AAAAAAAAAGk/-9h29LhQF9E/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-04-13+at+5.15.41+PM.png)
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It's more like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/hjVaJ.jpg)
An ideal male nose sits much higher on the face, like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/dBgWV.jpg)
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An ideal male nose sits much higher on the face, like this:
In the second photo, this man has a pretty pronounced brow bone. Aside from that, his nose appears to start at the same point, maybe just a hair higher. In the first, what specifically do you not like about this nose? Is it the dorsal bump or do you like this? This nose does not look long at all to me. Is there a front view?
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Here's an example of a disastrously long nose. To look anywhere near human, this guy would need to vertically shorten his nose by at least a centimeter. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem possible.
Oh, no way! This nose suits him well. It's a pretty good nose. Do you really think that this is too long on a man?
Imagine how strangely off his face would appear with shortening. I like it just the way it is. It's masculine and has a good shape.
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Going back to this image, what specifically bothers you?
(http://i.imgur.com/hjVaJ.jpg)
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Hyperbole. I edited it shortly after I posted it.
He's attractive to me. I don't think he'll be walking a fashion runway, but he looks good.
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He's attractive to me. I don't think he'll be walking a fashion runway, but he looks good.
People seem to say that about every picture that gets posted online. But, for instance, if you were in a university study and were asked to rank 100 men in order of attractiveness, you'd probably bottom him way toward the bottom.
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People seem to say that about every picture that gets posted online. But, for instance, if you were in a university study and were asked to rank 100 men in order of attractiveness, you'd probably bottom him way toward the bottom.
Nope. I genuinely find him attractive. The more I look at that nose, it's damn good :).
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Going back to this image, what specifically bothers you?
His nose/midface is too long. The middle third of his face (brows to bottom of nose) is far larger than the other thirds. Now if you can't shorten the midface, you would have to lengthen the other thirds to achieve proportion. But lengthening the forehead is impossible (to my knowledge), and lengthening the lower third would lead to an unattractive long face. So if your midface is long, there is very little that can be done to make you attractive. Moreover, men are attractive when they have disproportionately small midfaces, which further compounds the problem.
Here's a more neutral head position. See how his midface overwhelms the rest of his face?
(http://i.imgur.com/0d2n9.jpg)
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His nose/midface is too long. The middle third of his face (brows to bottom of nose) is far larger than the other thirds. Now if you can't shorten the midface, you would have to lengthen the other thirds to achieve proportion. But lengthening the forehead is impossible (to my knowledge), and lengthening the lower third would lead to an unattractive long face. So if your midface is long, there is very little that can be done to make you attractive. Moreover, men are attractive when they have disproportionately small midfaces, which further compounds the problem.
See how his midface overwhelms the rest of his face?
From this view, I don't see a long midface. In terms of "thirds", I thought that the midface was from the lower lid down to upper lip, no? I can see where lower advancement would look good, but I get your concern over a lengthening effect this can have. But, if the lower were brought forward horizontally, wouldn't that lessen this? This guy has a jaw shape similar to Josh Charles up-thread.
Edit to add: I disagree that only small midface on men makes them attractive. The guy up-thread has a long midface but still looks good. The same applies to some of the models that you posted on another thread, if can recall correctly. Too lazy to check, and my husband is nagging me to log off. :D
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Ok, this guy has a perfect midface. His nose is really high up on his face and short, but it still has good horizontal projection:
(http://i.imgur.com/RMexc.jpg)
Again, compare to this guy's long, low nose:
(http://i.imgur.com/bINEa.jpg)
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Id rather look like the guy you posted with the long nose(the one with the goatee) than the guy with the perfect midface. The perfect midface guy looks too feminine for me.
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Ok, this guy has a perfect midface. His nose is really high up on his face and short, but it still has good horizontal projection:
(http://i.imgur.com/RMexc.jpg)
Clearly, we have different preferences. This guy is "cute" but appears very young, somewhere around 16-17. Yes, he is attractive, but there is little here in the way of masculinity? He'd appeal to tweens, IMO. Am I the only one seeing this? I would actually like to see a longer nose on him.
If I recall correctly, you're fairly tall so a nose that petite and upturned would look out of place, I would think. What do you think?
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Id rather look like the guy you posted with the long nose(the one with the goatee) than the guy with the perfect midface. The perfect midface guy looks too feminine for me.
Agreed. He's quite feminine. So far, I like "long nose guy" best. Good nose!
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The second, guy's nose isnt that much of a problem. It is more his recessed jaws which make it look bigger than it is. Also his hair cut makes it worse. He should brush his hair up and to the side.
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^^Agreed, it looks like both his jaws are pretty recessed and his nose is in its normal place, the hugeness of it is just because of the inadequacy of his jaws. I'm gonna have to agree with HW though, the normal nosed guy is better looking, even though he looks youngish.
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It is more his recessed jaws which make it look bigger than it is. Also his hair cut makes it worse. He should brush his hair up and to the side.
Agreed on both points. Now, I wonder how surgeons would approach the jaws...CCW, CW, straight forward, etc? HW believes lower advancement would "lengthen" this guy's face, yet he has a short upper lip.
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Thoughts, HW? How should a surgeon approach bimax on the guy in the second photo?
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Thoughts, HW? How should a surgeon approach bimax on the guy in the second photo?
I'm not sure. He looks like a challenging case.
If the lower jaw is advanced, then his face will become longer, and it's already too long. His upper jaw is very long, but the excess length is all in his nose. He probably has no gummy smile. This is the exact same problem I have.
My guess is that he needs counter clockwise rotation. His upper jaw needs to be shortened a lot and then advanced some to compensate for the impaction. His lower jaw and chin need to be advanced substantially.
After all of this, I still think he'd look unattractive because the rest of his face is messed up. He'd need a rhinoplasty to shorten and deproject his nose and raise his dorsal line. He also needs brow augmentation as well as an otoplasty.
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I'm not sure. He looks like a challenging case.
If the lower jaw is advanced, then his face will become longer, and it's already too long. His upper jaw is very long, but the excess length is all in his nose. He probably has no gummy smile.
I'm not yet convinced that his face is too long. You wouldn't happen to have a front view photo, would you? Without an xray, it's hard to say if his maxilla is long. The upper lip region is very short, and this is what, IMO, makes his case difficult. I mean, how would its shortness be addressed? How does your upper lip compare to his?
My guess is that he needs counter clockwise rotation. His upper jaw needs to be shortened a lot and then advanced some to compensate for the impaction. His lower jaw and chin need to be advanced substantially.
Again, I'm wondering what an impaction and CCW would do the the upper lip. The lower jaw seems to be a straightforward fix.
After all of this, I still think he'd look unattractive because the rest of his face is messed up. He'd need a rhinoplasty to shorten and deproject his nose and raise his dorsal line. He also needs brow augmentation as well as an otoplasty.
I don't think he's messed up now. A front view of the nose to see its width would be helpful. But, if bimax could be achieved, I think the nose would be more balanced. I know that you like a higher dorsal line, but I don't think it's necessary on this guy. Maybe a conservative dorsal shave would look good.
I think the challenge lies in the region between the base of the nose and the upper lip. Shortening the soft & hard tissues of the nose, I would think, is not going to elongate the soft tissue of this region.
Edit to add: why the otoplasty?
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Here's another example of what I'm talking about.
(http://i.imgur.com/VS3gr.jpg)
Describe what you see here. I'm not following.
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This is the best I can do with him. His long, low nose will prevent him from ever being good looking. It's as if the base of his nose just grew too far downward as he was developing.
(http://i.imgur.com/J0PUQ.jpg)
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This is the best I can do with him. His long, low nose will prevent him from ever being good looking. It's as if the base of his nose just grew too far downward as he was developing.
I strongly disagree. He looks great here! What else besides the dorsal bump and the lower jaw did you change?
Edit to add: Okay, now I see the otoplasty and maybe a slight upturn to the nose. Why did you shorten the earlobes? What else am I missing?
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I strongly disagree. He looks great here! What else besides the dorsal bump and the lower jaw did you change?
Edit to add: Okay, now I see the otoplasty and maybe a slight upturn to the nose. Why did you shorten the earlobes? What else am I'm I missing?
I shortened the earlobes and brought out the upper jaw. Long earlobes are really bad because they make the jaws look smaller and give a rather vacuous look to the face. Conversely, short earlobes and high ears make people look intelligent and alert.
Here's a morph I did with free rein. Unfortunately, most of the things I did are impossible. It just goes to show you that very often the things that make us unattractive are things that can never be changed.
(http://i.imgur.com/kT5Qv.jpg)
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I shortened the earlobes and brought out the upper jaw. Long earlobes are really bad because they make the jaws look smaller and give a rather vacuous look to the face. Conversely, short earlobes and high ears make people look intelligent and alert.
This guy already has an intelligent appearance, especially in the eyes. I would not touch the earlobes.
Here's a morph I did with free rein. Unfortunately, most of the things I did are impossible. It just goes to show you that very often the things that make us unattractive are things that can never be changed.
I realize this PS is free form but, even so, this does not look good at all, with all due respect. Does this look good to you? Also, how tall are you? I came across a very tall young man with a small face/head and it looked unnatural. Keep in mind that the head has to fit the body. I liked the first morph sans otoplasty and with slightly less of a dorsal shave
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HW, I hope your expression of preference for this very specific and fairly uncommon aesthetic is merely academic in nature, and not one of aspiration or expectation. In terms of aesthetics, especially in complex or reconstructive cases, most surgeons attempt only to approximate a normal aesthetic, rather than a specific aesthetic.
Realistic expectations are essential to satisfaction in a great many things, and orthognathic surgery all the more so.
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I agree with Sharptoys. I tend to think HW understands the limitations involved, at least I hope so. HW?
Sharp, what are your thoughts on HW's first morph? Possible?
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Sharp, what are your thoughts on HW's first morph? Possible?
Certainly. I would also imagine that the fellow in HW's picture would look significantly better after bimaxillary/chin work than HW's projection would suggest. The most software can really do is stretch the profile border to approximate the projected movements, as it cannot possibly project how the soft tissue drape will be changed.
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Certainly. I would also imagine that the fellow HW picture would look significantly better after bimaxillary/chin work than HW's projection would suggest. The most software can really do is stretch the profile border to approximate the projected movements, as it cannot possibly project how the soft tissue drape will be changed.
Would the short nose to lip region pose a problem, in your opinion? I suppose my concern is that there is not enough upper lip there to accommodate a large forward move. Also, would there be lip strain from the new position of the teeth? FYI, I know nothing ;).
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I'm not sure. He looks like a challenging case.
If the lower jaw is advanced, then his face will become longer, and it's already too long. His upper jaw is very long, but the excess length is all in his nose. He probably has no gummy smile. This is the exact same problem I have.
My guess is that he needs counter clockwise rotation. His upper jaw needs to be shortened a lot and then advanced some to compensate for the impaction. His lower jaw and chin need to be advanced substantially.
After all of this, I still think he'd look unattractive because the rest of his face is messed up. He'd need a rhinoplasty to shorten and deproject his nose and raise his dorsal line. He also needs brow augmentation as well as an otoplasty.
I think if he had a genioplasty and rhinoplasty he would look fine. Not male model but normal. I wouldnt touch his jaws because like you said he probably has no gummy smile and it would probably require extreme movements in both jaws. Im going to do a morph to see what he would look like with a rhino and genio.
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Would the short nose to lip region pose a problem, in your opinion? I suppose my concern is that there is not enough upper lip there to accommodate a large forward move.
I doubt it. A large maxillary advancement is rarely indicated in normal or class II occlusions, and is likely not needed here. In addition, the effect of any advancement on the upper lip will be at least partially offset by the prescribed impaction/CCW rotation of the maxilla.
Even if it were to preclude the necessary linear advancement, counterclockwise rotation of the maxillomandibular complex would serve advance the pogonion significantly without requiring much maxillary advancement. Of course, xrays and professional examination would be needed to see whether such an operation is needed or practical;. I also imagine that many surgeons would elect to perform a linear advancement with minimal bimaxillary advancement and choose to supplement with more extensive chin work.
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Sharptoys, what can be done for this guy?
Xrays would, of course be necessary to assess any malocclusion, excess maxilla growth, ect, but he would likely benefit from traditional maxillary impaction/mandibular advancement which would enhance the soft tissue drape significantly, while eliminating the characteristic rounding of the soft tissue to the sides of the mouth. We should also consider his microgenia, which might require a inlay bone graft between inferior border and the rest of the mandible to increase the vertical height of his chin.
We should not underestimate the effect (either) jaw advancement has on the soft tissue. Perhaps my favorite case is JSB's HTK, which I'm sure most of you are familiar with:
Before:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2ui90m1.jpg) (http://i44.tinypic.com/2ui9a0z.jpg)
After lower jaw advancement and sliding genio:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/ok8i20.jpg) (http://i41.tinypic.com/aw2jpe.jpg)
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We should not underestimate the effect (either) jaw advancement has on the soft tissue. Perhaps my favorite case is JSB's HTK, which I'm sure most of you are familiar with:
I had not seen these. Here's HTK at nearly 7 months:
(http://i48.tinypic.com/140cl5u.jpg)
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Even if it were to preclude the necessary linear advancement, counterclockwise rotation of the maxillomandibular complex would serve advance the pogonion significantly without requiring much maxillary advancement. Of course, xrays and professional examination would be needed to see whether such an operation is needed or practical;. I also imagine that many surgeons would elect to perform a linear advancement with minimal bimaxillary advancement and choose to supplement with more extensive chin work.
Purely in terms of aesthetics, and assuming no anatomic barriers, do you personally think this guy would benefit from maxillary advancement?
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nvm didnt realize the guy had a disease
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What is his disease called?
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nvm didnt realize the guy had a disease
What did I miss?
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I think I have this
Hate u guys!!!!
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I think I have this
Have what?
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Well I was thinking my upper jaw is too long but its not. I just loomed in the mirror.
Problem is long midface and nose. I've gotten used to it and I tend to like it in men sometimes
Short noses to me in men look awful.
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*looked
God I just realized what I did with the short nose thing >_< no short 'n stumpies
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Well I was thinking my upper jaw is too long but its not. I just loomed in the mirror.
Problem is long midface and nose. I've gotten used to it and I tend to like it in men sometimes
I have a longish midface, as well, I think. lol. A long midface is not unattractive. It depends on how everything else is put together, IMO.
Tdawg, what disease were you referring to?
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Ditto. Curious about which disease
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Purely in terms of aesthetics, and assuming no anatomic barriers, do you personally think this guy would benefit from maxillary advancement?
Late reply here, but I believe that he would, although maxillary movement would likely be modest either way.
Of course, I am biased as I do prefer more pronounced MMC in general, perhaps because my own is somewhat retracted, but that is neither here nor there...
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Late reply here, but I believe that he would, although maxillary movement would likely be modest either way.
Of course, I am biased as I do prefer more pronounced MMC in general, perhaps because my own is somewhat retracted, but that is neither here nor there...
Clueless here. What is an MMC?
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I posted a link asking for opinions on somebody with a severely retruded mandible, from a popular youtube video. Then I found speculation he might be diseased so I took it down and instead put the post you saw as I felt it would be in bad taste.
It isnt confirmed he had a disease, just speculated but I still felt it was in bad taste. If you are still curious though youtube "sodahead"
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I posted a link asking for opinions on somebody with a severely retruded mandible, from a popular youtube video. Then I found speculation he might be diseased so I took it down and instead put the post you saw as I felt it would be in bad taste.
It isnt confirmed he had a disease, just speculated but I still felt it was in bad taste. If you are still curious though youtube "sodahead"
Thanks. I thought that you were referring to the guy posted upthread. I will check out youtube.
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How did this guy's nose shorten so much? It looks like he had upper jaw advancement.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ttfpu.jpg)
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How did this guy's nose shorten so much? It looks like he had upper jaw advancement.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ttfpu.jpg)
I see a slight dorsal shave and upper advancement that upturned the nose. Not sure if he had the nose tip refined, though. It sort of looks like he did. The nasal flare looks untouched. Looks good.
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How did this guy's nose shorten so much? It looks like he had upper jaw advancement.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ttfpu.jpg)
He didn't have an especially long nasal height to begin with. His midface was optically lengthened because of the drooping tip.
Let me add that it's utter nonsense that a man can't be attractive if he has a long midface. It's all about balance. Here are two men with very long midfaces who are extremely handsome. Why do they look good? Because they have the strong lower face and facial width to match.
(http://pics.livejournal.com/ninjacandy/pic/0005td41/s640x480)
(http://sandypothier.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/balfour.jpg)
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I posted a link asking for opinions on somebody with a severely retruded mandible, from a popular youtube video. Then I found speculation he might be diseased so I took it down and instead put the post you saw as I felt it would be in bad taste.
It isnt confirmed he had a disease, just speculated but I still felt it was in bad taste. If you are still curious though youtube "sodahead"
It's possible he has treacher collins syndrome.
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He didn't have an especially long nasal height to begin with. His midface was optically lengthened because of the drooping tip.
Let me add that it's utter nonsense that a man can't be attractive if he has a long midface. It's all about balance. Here are two men with very long midfaces who are extremely handsome. Why do they look good? Because they have the strong lower face and facial width to match.
(http://pics.livejournal.com/ninjacandy/pic/0005td41/s640x480)
(http://sandypothier.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/balfour.jpg)
sorry but what you are completely ignoring here is how short the distance from the upper lip to the base of the nose is on both of these people. This is a dominant characteristic of attractive people, so sorry, if you measure the distance from the pupil to the upper lip, it's actually shorter than most men.
Second, both guys have wide-set eyes, AGAIN WIDE-SET EYES ARE VERY important for attractiveness because they make a longer face seem shorter. Yes, it's all about balance exactly. But there are certain proportions you CANNOT change, at least given current medical science. You cannot change the width of your eyes(crucial for beauty) and you cannot change the distance between pupil and upper lip really (there are lip lifts, but they produce HORRIBLE looking results).
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Unfortunately, you are absolutely wrong. Midface height IS nasal height. This is how it is defined by all physical anthropologists and maxillofacial surgeons. Infact the greater the nasal height, the SHORTER the distance between the nasal base and the upper lip generally is. A short midface is usually associated with a long upper lip/philtrum ala William H Macy.
(http://www.starscolor.com/images/william-h.-macy-05.jpg)
By the way, the second dude has fairly close-set eyes, actually.
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Unfortunately, you are absolutely wrong. Midface height IS nasal height. This is how it is defined by all physical anthropologists and maxillofacial surgeons. Infact the greater the nasal height, the SHORTER the distance between the nasal base and the upper lip generally is. A short midface is usually associated with a long upper lip/philtrum ala William H Macy.
(http://www.starscolor.com/images/william-h.-macy-05.jpg)
By the way, the second dude has fairly close-set eyes, actually.
The second dude, Eric Balfour, I've actually met him at a club in LA, he's not really that good looking, what helps him is that he has very good skin and hair and his eyes are far apart enough that they mitigate the length of his face somewhat. It's like Arnett/Gunson say, beauty if based on two factors your bone structure and the quality of your skin/hair. That guy has amazing skin and hair --Arnett even writes, a weak chin(and presumably an overprojected one) will go unnoticed if the person has great hair and skin.
I still don't believe that beauty is subjective though. They've done tons and tons of tests on this with babies for example, cross culturally are attracted to the same proportioned faces. I mean if you have a long-face just ask someone if they think you're good looking, you'll have your answer either way.
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cool story bro.
lol
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lol
tell it again.
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Unfortunately, you are absolutely wrong. Midface height IS nasal height. This is how it is defined by all physical anthropologists and maxillofacial surgeons. Infact the greater the nasal height, the SHORTER the distance between the nasal base and the upper lip generally is. A short midface is usually associated with a long upper lip/philtrum ala William H Macy.
The midface is only the nasal height according to the rule of thirds, otherwise it's the region which comprises the nasal/cheek bones as well as the maxilla.
The "perceptive midface" is the region between your eyes and mouth - when someone says they have a "long midface", they are usually referring to this.
Short nasal height doesn't mean long philtrum, as that neglects all the cases where both the nasal height and philtrum are too long/short.
If the guy in your pic was to get an intense lip lift to reduce his philtrum, he would be left with overexposed gums and thus would need maxillary impaction.
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sorry but what you are completely ignoring here is how short the distance from the upper lip to the base of the nose is on both of these people. This is a dominant characteristic of attractive people, so sorry, if you measure the distance from the pupil to the upper lip, it's actually shorter than most men.
Second, both guys have wide-set eyes, AGAIN WIDE-SET EYES ARE VERY important for attractiveness because they make a longer face seem shorter. Yes, it's all about balance exactly. But there are certain proportions you CANNOT change, at least given current medical science. You cannot change the width of your eyes(crucial for beauty) and you cannot change the distance between pupil and upper lip really (there are lip lifts, but they produce HORRIBLE looking results).
Azn guy has a heart-shaped face. Both his eyes and cheeks are wide set, this balances out his facial length and gives him an "intelligent" look.
Second guy isn't really that good looking at all. He has close-set eyes and a rectangular face, both of which only serve to make the overall face look longer. My first point of focus wasn't the midface though, but rather his nasal bridge and chin length.
Why do you think lip lifts produce horrible results? They're really the only hope in some people.
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Ashton Kutcher looks like an "alpha male" now? Lolz.
If we're dealing purely with physical characteristics, then this is what a alpha male looks like.
(http://bigmusclegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/vladimir-full.jpg)
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Good grief. Ashton Kutcher's chin looks ridicously long here. Has he always had this or did he get an implant?
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You can get a lip lift after maxillary impaction to get rid of the skin excess.
Is this just speculation, or have you seen it done? The maxilla is a huge bone, and I don't see how a lip lift (which raises only a small portion of the upper lip beneath the nose) would pick up the excess soft tissue in a patient who underwent maxillary impaction without an anatomical need for it. I suppose a facelift would be a better option, but that strikes me as quite impractical and extremely risky.
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Is this just speculation, or have you seen it done? The maxilla is a huge bone, and I don't see how a lip lift (which raises only a small portion of the upper lip beneath the nose) would pick up the excess soft tissue in a patient who underwent maxillary impaction without an anatomical need for it. I suppose a facelift would be a better option, but that strikes me as quite impractical and extremely risky.
You think this amount of soft tissue removed from the philtrum wouldn't be enough to compensante for the shorter maxillary height?
http://niamtu.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/untitled-21.jpg (http://niamtu.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/untitled-21.jpg)
http://www.sacramentoplastics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/bullhornsmall.jpg (http://www.sacramentoplastics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/bullhornsmall.jpg)
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I personally wouldn't EVER play around with my soft tissue. It seems to rarely (if ever?) look natural. Also, I personally think there's a big difference between fixing something that has been under/over-developed, like your jaw, versus modifying parts of your face that has (presumably) grown into its genetically intended shape and size.
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Does lip incompetence necessitate impaction or can the gap be closed by CCW? I guess to answer that question I l'd have to know what sort of growth causes the lip incompetence
I don't have a gummy smile but do have a rather large amount of lip incompetence (10-12 mm ballpark figure) and would rather not undergo impaction.
Ok it looks to be more around 8 mm
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Also today is my last day of classes which means no more sitting around here speculating, I'm going to go home and actually make headway on this. Good news for those who are fed up with my constant questions ;D
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Well found a chart of average ranges if you were curious
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajmg.10472/asset/10472_ftp.pdf;jsessionid=480BD3EF472086A2693EF4AED67FBCA2.d02t02?v=1&t=hfu8d9qo&s=f278440e04e991f78e887bb509afd0b325c274c7 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajmg.10472/asset/10472_ftp.pdf;jsessionid=480BD3EF472086A2693EF4AED67FBCA2.d02t02?v=1&t=hfu8d9qo&s=f278440e04e991f78e887bb509afd0b325c274c7)
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did this person have jaw surgery? her midlines are so off. also her teeth look fake. what the hell? i have no idea about different coloured gums. I'd rather have a bit of a gummy smile though then less of one.
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did this person have jaw surgery? her midlines are so off. also her teeth look fake. what the hell? i have no idea about different coloured gums. I'd rather have a bit of a gummy smile though then less of one.
lol I dunno, I got the pic from here: http://reviewbraces.com/fixing-a-gummy-smile/ (http://reviewbraces.com/fixing-a-gummy-smile/)
lack of a gummy smile means no impaction and I think I would benefit from impaction (lower 1/3rd shortening), the actual gum show doesn't bother me.
also my midlines are off too, recently discovered that I have a maxillary yaw but I don't know if it's skeletally or dentally based
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i had never read this thread, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so depressing. i can't believe neferkittie(sic?) thinks this guy is "good looking" --i mean he looks nice and all and poor guy, but he is absolutely f**ked up looking. but without a doubt the absolute best thing is this after morph!!! who did this!? You made him look like a f**king TRANSFORMER!!!
the guy in the pic posts on another forum and has a really attractive girlfriend. looks aren't everything
he did get a nose job, but I'd hardly describe him as f**ked up looking
(http://i.imgur.com/doqbtjK.jpg)
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the guy in the pic posts on another forum and has a really attractive girlfriend. looks aren't everything
no they most certainly are not, and I'm modifying my post because I'm being quite mean....I thought this was on the private forum but its not.
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hes a funny guy
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the guy in the pic posts on another forum and has a really attractive girlfriend. looks aren't everything
he did get a nose job, but I'd hardly describe him as f**ked up looking
(http://i.imgur.com/doqbtjK.jpg)
questions: what forum does he post on and why? And why do you have a picture of him and his girlfriend? and more importantly, why did he post a picture of himself with his girlfriend? Is this like some general interest forum you all post on and know each other from or is it a jaw surgery forum?
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questions: what forum does he post on and why? And why do you have a picture of him and his girlfriend? and more importantly, why did he post a picture of himself with his girlfriend? Is this like some general interest forum you all post on and know each other from or is it a jaw surgery forum?
puahate, google image searched his username, no idea, general interest forum
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guys hes not really good looking but he's not crazy like we are.
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he needs to grow out his hair a bit and maybe some facial hair.
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puahate, google image searched his username, no idea, general interest forum
puahate is full of WAY more mentally disturbed people than this site. I mean I've browsed some of the threads and it's like full on mental retards.
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he needs to grow out his hair a bit and maybe some facial hair.
you should totally be a stylist!
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ah sorry I missed this, can't check anymore because I'm not on the university database
anyways random other question, this is approximately the gumminess of my smile. am I a candidate for impaction or no? also, is it normal for the upper and lower gums to have different coloring, lower being lighter than upper?
(http://reviewbraces.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/sezine-gummy-smile-head.jpg)
I think she looks cuter/ pretty in the before shot. There are a lot of pretty girls with gummy smiles. Like Katie couric and some models.
Looks like this girl had veneers made bigger to cover up the gumminess of her smile. They are much whiter, bigger and more opaque.
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you should totally be a stylist!
im just saying it would look better imo.
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Ck! why are you still up at this time?
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im just saying it would look better imo.
i wasn't being sarcastic, I was being encouraging and serious!
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Nope. I genuinely find him attractive. The more I look at that nose, it's damn good :).
Completely agree that Long nose is far more attractive. Moreover, amongst Rajputs it is a desirable feature, just like Almond shaped eyes. It is associated with dignity, high pedigree and leadership qualities. Further, when you gain weight or have long hair, then too your nose suits you well like a sedan car's bonnet (the larger - the better) as it gives the right proportion to your facial features, heavy cheeks, etc. A small nose, is basically associated with the people of obscure or low origin.