Is this true?

[nrelax11]

http://www.facefocused.com/proporpos.html

When the tongue is low and the teeth and lips are apart at rest, crowded teeth, gummy smiles, recessive chins, and long faces result. If the tongue is positioned between the back teeth, the upper front teeth come down too far, resulting in a deep bite situation (upper teeth covering all or most of the lower teeth), and often a gummy smile. Changes in the balance of the face and the teeth vary in severity depending on the degree of departure from proper oral posture. There is also a strong relationship between the distance the lips are apart at rest and instability of an orthodontic result, as well as continual unfavorable facial balance changes throughout life.

I have lip incompetence and all I know is that my tongue kind of just hangs in my mouth. Puts horrible strain on my jaw muscles and feels awkward. Luckily my surgery is in june to fix it all

My lip incompetence didnt occur till after I got braces in high school and I think my maxilla continued growing vertically into my early 20s because I never noticed it untill a few years ago. Currently almost 25. Do males jaws grow till there early 20s? I know there always changing as you get older, but do they finish maturing in the 20s?

I dont know if a lot of people know, but the tongue is basically closes the circuit of musculature in the body. I suffer from neck pain and its almost all gone from stretching my tight muscles and fixing my posture. What ive noticed though is that if I force my mouth closed and keep my tongue on my palate, it fixes my remaining neck pain.  It makes my neck feel more stable. Theres actually an exercise you can do to strengthen your deep strap muscle in your front neck. You stand butt and head against a wall, tuck your chin in, and at the same time, push your tongue hard against the roof of your mouth and drive your head against the wall. Youll feel the muscles working deep in the front of your neck. Sorry, got off topic lol.

[pekay]

It is still disputed tho. But I don't really get along with the idea that it's all rather genetic, how some scientist believe. Crowded teeth, dysgnathia, all that stuff was very rare in the Stone Age and other ancient cultures as it is in comparison to our modern society.

Most intellectual villains (in literature) during the Elizabethan era were written/described as having a large over-projected nose and a weak/recessed chin.

[PloskoPlus]

It is still disputed tho. But I don't really get along with the idea that it's all rather genetic, how some scientist believe. Crowded teeth, dysgnathia, all that stuff was very rare in the Stone Age and other ancient cultures as it is in comparison to our modern society.

I remember reading that human jaws are half the size they were 10000 years ago. Decreasing jaw size is apparently a constant trend since then.  Modern observations:

http://news.discovery.com/human/evolution/jaw-size-human-diet-evolution-111122.htm

[Tiny]

It is still disputed tho. But I don't really get along with the idea that it's all rather genetic, how some scientist believe. Crowded teeth, dysgnathia, all that stuff was very rare in the Stone Age and other ancient cultures as it is in comparison to our modern society.

Aaaaaaaah....but but but - you need to consider that a lot of modern people are able to pass on their genes whereas if these same people lived in the Stone age, their genes would not be going very far.  There is very little selective pressure now.  Genetically, we are a much weaker species. Partially due to medicine but also the fact that we are a lot more monogamous now than we used to be is a contributing factor.

I wonder how much is genetic and how much isn't.  I look very similar to my father in terms of facial bone structure but while his chin is small, it is not recessed like mine is.  Neither is my mothers.  Yet my sister has a slightly recessed chin and mine is significantly recessed.  Is that because my sister and I both had extractions? Or is it because there was some lurking weak chin genes hiding? Or is it because my father is relatively old? (he was 41 when I was born and if you're observational you might have noticed a reasonably obvious genetic mutation in my face already (not the chin)) Kids of older fathers have more genetic mistakes, did a gene that was already a bit rubbish, become a lot more rubbish via mutation? (The way I've written this sounds mad, but it does happen)

However, I have a friend from high school and both her and her sister had exactly the same recessed chin and open bite as their mother did.   The only thing looks wise I have from my mothers side of the family is the position of my right upper incisor which is exactly the same as my mothers (this is the only tooth she has out of place) and exactly the same as both of my maternal aunts and my maternal grandmother.  If 5 women across 3 generation can share the exact position of a single tooth then I think it's fair to say that a significant part of dentition is hereditary.  Look at the Hapsburgs

Having said all that stuff about genetics, it is by far from the only thing at play.  Orthodontics, tongue thrusting etc are definitely going to have an effect

Re: jaws I think for men it's between 16-20.  For some guys you definitely see subtle changes between 18 and 20. 

[notrain]

my mother and sister have the exact same s**tty class 2 jaw that i have.

the thing is, orthodontic appliances are capable of retraining myofascial habits. since most kids get ortho treatment (in germany it gets paid by social healthcare, so everybody has it) and all those mouth breathers and tongue thrusters get fixed before the even enter puberty.

i see so many class 2 people on the streets now that i am aware of it. if there wasn't a strong genetic component to it, those people would have become class 1 jaws via ortho treatment.

the real root causes are tens of thousands of years of enforced monogamy and the general reckless abandon of most people to have kids they shouldn't have had in the first place.

[Tiny]

the real root causes are tens of thousands of years of enforced monogamy and the general reckless abandon of most people to have kids they shouldn't have had in the first place.

Personally I estimate around 10,000 years.  It is the neolithic revolution and what came after that would have drove the human species to a more monogamous model than we originally had in the palaeolithic

[notrain]

Personally I estimate around 10,000 years.  It is the neolithic revolution and what came after that would have drove the human species to a more monogamous model than we originally had in the palaeolithic

you are taking the rants and ravings of a mad man way too literally (

[dantheman]

Im just surprised that nobody seems to take allergies seriously, when there is scientific evidence for the development of adenoid facies. Now some will argue this is only under extreme congestion that is constant, but it stands to reason that milder cases will lead to milder skeletal abnormalities.

There are too many factors at play to make an easy genetics vs. environment argument. These days we have worse posture, worse diets, worse cases of asthma / allergies / nasal congestion. Any combination of these factors can affect facial development.

Part of me wishes I saw an orthodontist when I was still growing. In the right hands I think I would have really benefited. In the wrong hands... well, we've all seen what can happen.

[notrain]

Part of me wishes I saw an orthodontist when I was still growing. In the right hands I think I would have really benefited. In the wrong hands... well, we've all seen what can happen.

You'd still be here, looking like you do now, complaining about how ortho appliances ruined your facial growth.

I had ortho treatment during my final growth spurt. It didn't change a thing.

[PloskoPlus]

There are too many factors at play to make an easy genetics vs. environment argument. These days we have worse posture, worse diets, worse cases of asthma / allergies / nasal congestion. Any combination of these factors can affect facial development.

My mother is Class III, so is her brother, so was her father.  So am I.  Must be the environment.

[dantheman]

No it's not the environment that determines your genetic coding, but thanks for the sarcasm.

Genetics determines development under ideal conditions.

Environment can disrupt or alter the genetically determined growth patterns. Open mouth breathing creates small undesirable forces over long periods of time. Braces create a high amount of force over a much shorter period of time. Either way growth can be altered.