Author Topic: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum  (Read 17466 times)

some1afterall

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Karma: 7
CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« on: April 27, 2018, 01:33:06 PM »
I had a recent consult that included the surgical plan of CCW maxilla rotation, slightly forward and up (1-2 mm, small movements). My question is how will this affect my lips and philtrum? After my first jaw surgery, which included CW rotation, my philtrum lengthened and my upper lip kinda hangs above my incisors. I was told CCW rotation will move my upper lip into a better position where my upper lip is supported by my incisors. Would this then create a fuller upper lip and shorter philtrum?

What would be some of the unwanted aesthetics that come with CCW rotation? Further nose widening?

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2018, 06:28:51 PM »
I had a recent consult that included the surgical plan of CCW maxilla rotation, slightly forward and up (1-2 mm, small movements). My question is how will this affect my lips and philtrum? After my first jaw surgery, which included CW rotation, my philtrum lengthened and my upper lip kinda hangs above my incisors. I was told CCW rotation will move my upper lip into a better position where my upper lip is supported by my incisors. Would this then create a fuller upper lip and shorter philtrum?

What would be some of the unwanted aesthetics that come with CCW rotation? Further nose widening?

Let's see, your history is that you started with a 'horsey' GUMMY SMILE and convex profile. The surgery you got CORRECTED your gummy smile. Yet somehow you think the surgery you got prior included CW rotation and now want to know some unwanted effects of CCW. See if you can figure out which is used to correct gummy smile, CW or CCW so you have some clue as to the rotation direction you had in the first place.

Although your original complaint was that your face looked 'too long' to you in frontal, for the most part, the surgery you got addressed your prior CONVEX profile. The apparant perceived excess length to the face in frontal was attributed to the chin genio, the 'whys' of which explained to you. Gotta wonder if that info was processed.

Now comes a question for a new appearance problem as to whether or not revision max fax will make a thin lip fuller and a philtrum shorter. STOP. THINK. If this is something you are considering TO do that as with THAT objective, that particular objective is more predictably obtained via lip augmentation and lip lip lift.

Quite frankly, I consider giving any further information on this matter an exercise in futility. Reason being is that you haven't shown much ability to process or 'digest' information that was given to you or that you had already.

If I'm wrong here, I'll eat Lazlo's shorts.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

PloskoPlus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3044
  • Karma: 140
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2018, 08:03:52 PM »
I had a recent consult that included the surgical plan of CCW maxilla rotation, slightly forward and up (1-2 mm, small movements). My question is how will this affect my lips and philtrum? After my first jaw surgery, which included CW rotation, my philtrum lengthened and my upper lip kinda hangs above my incisors. I was told CCW rotation will move my upper lip into a better position where my upper lip is supported by my incisors. Would this then create a fuller upper lip and shorter philtrum?

What would be some of the unwanted aesthetics that come with CCW rotation? Further nose widening?
The lip doesn't change length with jaw surgery... However, when the teeth are too vertical, so is the lip and a vertical lip LOOKS longer (especially if the upper jaw was advanced).  I have the same problem.  AFAIK, CCW will roll up the lip and make it look shorter.

P.S. Was it Gunson?

some1afterall

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Karma: 7
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2018, 09:04:38 PM »
I have 10mm of lip incompetence now (worse after jaw surgery,now upper AND lower tooth show at rest). I don’t think a lip lift would help. I’m obviously unhappy with my jaw surgery results, therefore I’m consulting with a few of the best surgeons in the field. What happened to freedom of speech? Isn’t that what the internet and this message board are about? Am I not posting a question about jaw surgery aesthetics in a jaw surgery aesthetics board?



PloskoPlus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3044
  • Karma: 140
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 08:47:39 PM »
Kavan,

I think you're unduly harsh.  10 mm of lip incompetence is not a cosmetic issue... It's a bad functional outcome.

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 09:25:27 PM »
Kavan,

I think you're unduly harsh.  10 mm of lip incompetence is not a cosmetic issue... It's a bad functional outcome.

Oh...was I responding to any mention of a 10mm lip incompetence??  I don't think so. She brought it in later.  Look at the mention of the 10mm and when I  made my post. I was responding to her information processing abilities. Can you explain for her how she got CW rotation in the first surgery when the first surgery was to reduce a gummy smile.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

some1afterall

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Karma: 7
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 10:31:37 PM »
The first surgery was for an anterior open bite and retrognathia.

some1afterall

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Karma: 7
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 10:32:46 PM »
And I thought I was posting in the aesthetics board?

PloskoPlus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3044
  • Karma: 140
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2018, 02:20:52 AM »
Oh...was I responding to any mention of a 10mm lip incompetence??  I don't think so. She brought it in later.  Look at the mention of the 10mm and when I  made my post. I was responding to her information processing abilities. Can you explain for her how she got CW rotation in the first surgery when the first surgery was to reduce a gummy smile.

My guess is posterior impaction to fix the open bite was greater than the anterior impaction (if there was any), so the net rotation was CW. Anyway, I don't know what the original surgeon told the OP. I wouldn't overestimate the intelligence of most surgeons.

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2018, 03:42:50 PM »
My guess is posterior impaction to fix the open bite was greater than the anterior impaction (if there was any), so the net rotation was CW. Anyway, I don't know what the original surgeon told the OP. I wouldn't overestimate the intelligence of most surgeons.

That's a good explanation as to a possible net CW rotation based on a guess she got more posterior impaction than anterior. But then again CCW (anterior impaction) is done to correct gummy smile. But it would be preferable if she could better clarify what she got.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

haven

  • Private
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 11
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2018, 11:07:36 AM »
I assume this is the surgical plan proposed by Dr Gunson? I don't think you ever mentioned your lip incompetence before. Would that be a result of your surgery with Dr. O'Ryan?  There are other members here that were operated by her and ended seeking revisions elsewhere. One of them got her revision with Dr. Karas, who you mentioned before.

CCW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Karma: 37
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2018, 01:54:53 PM »
When in doubt, I'd trust Gunson over a lesser-known surgeon.

some1afterall

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
  • Karma: 7
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2018, 04:56:43 PM »
I managed to get the pre and post op profile X-rays. So... what's the verdict? I'm working on getting the surgical notes.


kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2018, 06:06:19 PM »
I assume this is the surgical plan proposed by Dr Gunson? I don't think you ever mentioned your lip incompetence before. Would that be a result of your surgery with Dr. O'Ryan?  There are other members here that were operated by her and ended seeking revisions elsewhere. One of them got her revision with Dr. Karas, who you mentioned before.

I think the poster 'Lyra' is the person in this blog who had a bad experience with a Felice O'Ryan. http://www.confessionsofametalmouth.com/my-doctors.html

Found her string here: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=4481.msg44042#msg44042
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

PloskoPlus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3044
  • Karma: 140
Re: CCW rotation effect on lips and philtrum
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2018, 09:40:37 PM »
Lazlo,

I don't think you've misunderstood the whole situation.