I ACTUALLY BELIEVE A LOT OF THIS s**t

[Lazlo]

That's true, most get through it unscathed.

as far as you know. people on this site track their progress very closely and it's only in the last year or so that much information about ortho practices and patient diaries have been available on the internet.

[CK]

as far as you know. people on this site track their progress very closely and it's only in the last year or so that much information about ortho practices and patient diaries have been available on the internet.

the people that have problems - or feel they do - tend to be the only ones that go online. so it distorts reality.  this applies to many elective medical treatments.

i would say by and large, especially these days, most people are in braces 1-3 years, arent subject to extreme orthodontic work, and generally come out ok without problems.
 
a major variable is the time you have been in braces and the amount of special treatments you have been subject to - extractions, headgear, long-term resistance bands, whatever.

personally i think most people who get braces dont need them but parents dont know any better. orthodontists definitely have a tight grip on this and will do everything to prevent discussion that might question mainstream practices.

[Moon Pix 1985]

examples of optimal forward growth

When I look at photos like this I don't get how there can possibly be such a huge difference between people in terms of the amount of forward growth.

This is a photo of one of Mommaerts afters.



How much more projected do you think Angelina Jolie's face is than this girls? I find it hard to believe that diet or breathing patterns can account for such a big difference.

Are the Le Fort II and III supposed to mimick this growth?

[Lazlo]

When I look at photos like this I don't get how there can possibly be such a huge difference between people in terms of the amount of forward growth.

This is a photo of one of Mommaerts afters.



How much more projected do you think Angelina Jolie's face is than this girls? I find it hard to believe that diet or breathing patterns can account for such a big difference.

Are the Le Fort II and III supposed to mimick this growth?

no of course not, diet and genetics have nothing to do with that sort of growth. i think everyone should realize PEOPLE LOOK QUITE DIFFERENT! Some people are very lucky, some people ain't.

There's a degree of diet and stuff involved maybe but it's minimal. Angelina Jolie faces are quite rare.

[x]

When I look at photos like this I don't get how there can possibly be such a huge difference between people in terms of the amount of forward growth.

This is a photo of one of Mommaerts afters.



How much more projected do you think Angelina Jolie's face is than this girls? I find it hard to believe that diet or breathing patterns can account for such a big difference.

Are the Le Fort II and III supposed to mimick this growth?

Ok for one, that woman had surgery in order to attain a profile that falls in line with the norm, so she didn't look like that until her jaws were surgically cut up and moved forward. Secondly, you can tell how her face differs in growth from Angelina Jolina in the large difference between her anterior and posterior facial height (vs. AJ's and Leo's which as you can see is a relatively small difference in height). Finally, and this goes along with the anteroposterior height difference, Angelina's gonial angle is close to 90 degrees, right angled, while that girl's gonial angle is very obtuse, like her lower jaw is being pushed down by her upper facial structure. The jaws didn't grow in harmony like ideally they're supposed to.

Lefort II and III mimick normal growth and are reserved for severe deformities, I wouldn't bank on any surgeon performing it on you. Those celebrities jaws harmonize in a way that very few normal people do. What's important to take away from this is a subtle few mm's here or there can make more of a difference than you would believe.

[Tiny]

I had 4 big adult molars taken out at 14 or 15.    Most people get bicuspids, but my ortho wante to take out bigger teeth (and the ones with poor enamel).  I was in braces 13-16.  No expansion at all.  I have the same facial structure as my father, and my old dentist used to complain about how small our mouths were...yet it expansion seemingly never occurred to anyone.  Extractions were a "must" to sort the crowding and prevent impacted wisdom teeth.

I had the extractions under local and it was awful.  Much more traumatic than my rhinoplasty, I guess because I was young.  The locals hurt like a mother-f*cker and the teeth had 3 big roots and required a lot of force to take out.  I still remember the crunching and wrenching involve 

[Moon Pix 1985]

Ok for one, that woman had surgery in order to attain a profile that falls in line with the norm, so she didn't look like that until her jaws were surgically cut up and moved forward. Secondly, you can tell how her face differs in growth from Angelina Jolina in the large difference between her anterior and posterior facial height (vs. AJ's and Leo's which as you can see is a relatively small difference in height). Finally, and this goes along with the anteroposterior height difference, Angelina's gonial angle is close to 90 degrees, right angled, while that girl's gonial angle is very obtuse, like her lower jaw is being pushed down by her upper facial structure. The jaws didn't grow in harmony like ideally they're supposed to.

Lefort II and III mimick normal growth and are reserved for severe deformities, I wouldn't bank on any surgeon performing it on you. Those celebrities jaws harmonize in a way that very few normal people do. What's important to take away from this is a subtle few mm's here or there can make more of a difference than you would believe.

In that case shouldnt Mommaerts have impacted the upper jaw? As I understand it impactingthe upper jaw causes the lower jaw to swing up on its own because its no longer being helf down by the upper jaw.

Would you say then the gonial angle is what gives a person that well formed jaw line? Is there not actually that much difference in distance between Angelina and that girl in terms of the distance between the chin and where the neck begins?

[x]

In that case shouldnt Mommaerts have impacted the upper jaw? As I understand it impactingthe upper jaw causes the lower jaw to swing up on its own because its no longer being helf down by the upper jaw.

Would you say then the gonial angle is what gives a person that well formed jaw line? Is there not actually that much difference in distance between Angelina and that girl in terms of the distance between the chin and where the neck begins?

Yeah that's right about what happens to the lower jaw, but I don't know the particulars of her case that MM did and if he had the capability to give her a more flat mandibular plane I think he would've done so. There may have been a functional or soft tissue situation unique to her case complicating the ability to rotate the lower jaw any more upwards.

I would say gonial angle, length of mandibular body, flaring of the gonials, vertical length of the ramus, and tautness of skin all play a part in creating the jaw line

[overbiter]

Angelina Jolie before her surgeries. Not so much forward growth.

[pekay]

I actually think that she looked better before surgery

super cute, dunno what drove her to get surgery

[Kristen]

Maybe breathing issues or profile

[overbiter]

Maybe breathing issues or profile

Nah, it was to look more mature/beautiful and have that projecting jaws look. Everyone is obsessed with it, including Hollywood, including us. I actually think she did look a lot more natural and possibly better before surgery. Her new chin looks really fake, and too strong in comparison to the before chin.

[CK]

How much more projected do you think Angelina Jolie's face is than this girls? I find it hard to believe that diet or breathing patterns can account for such a big difference.

i dont buy the diet's influence on growth. i read somewhere that some people think eating soft foods at a young age somehow has a negative impact on growth. i call BS..

the tongue forms the palate and triggers the growth of the upper jaw, and therefore most of the face. at least the important parts. so mouth breathing, lifelong at least, might mean poor oral posture, which can influence how the face will grow as you develop. but it's just a correlation and there hasn't been a terrible amount of research because doctors have no incentive to care.

@overbite

pretty obvious she is a teenager in the before pic. and it's hollywood so theyve all had loads of crazy PS.

i think the girl look slightly slightly betterish before. her face is slightly wider after and rounder, and she looks kind of older. in her case she had more to lose than to gain. i would say she lucked out, it could have been so much worse. also the pasty whiteness suited her better. must have had some functional problems i cant see why a surgeon would operate on her.

 

[x]

i think the girl look slightly slightly betterish before. her face is slightly wider after and rounder, and she looks kind of older. in her case she had more to lose than to gain. i would say she lucked out, it could have been so much worse.

it really sucks that this consideration needs to be made. jaw surgery has a long way to come before it becomes a guaranteed aesthetic improvement

[Lazlo]

you guys do realize you're going to be unhappy all your lives pining and wishing that some combination of factors (your ortho, your parents, evolution, chance diet etc. etc. etc. ) conspired to make you like like a male/female model. Sorry but I think what you don't realize is that even if you had perfect bites and teeth and jaw symmetry you wouldn't necessarily be good looking whatsoever. First, attractiveness is really only an issue from the ages of 15-35 -that's the age range, after that, you're too old so it doesn't matter anyway (i.e. your skin etc. is too lax, sun damaged, etc.).  And even then, you probably had a more normal bite BEFORE jaw surgery or braces.

Fools, wake the f**k up! Most people are not good looking. That is why we valorize good looking people. Because they are rare. Stop trying to blame your ortho etc.e tc. on the fact you're ugly, it don't make that much of a difference. If you had jaw surgery accept your results. If you didn't, temper your expecations. f**k.